Just curious. There has been a few events in the compound bow world in regards to companies closing and lawsuit being filed in regards to patent infringement.

Is that something that does not exist in traditional business?

I keep hearing that A&H/Stalker has a patent on ACS design.

But at the end of the day, a longbow or recurve share mostly similar design. Most bowyers now are making similar bows.

Has there been any case recently of incidents of blatant 'copying' by a bowyer that got serious?

Example, let say I decided to make a Howard Hill bow for a hobby project. I don't see an issues with that. BUT what if I made a bow similar to one that has signature designs familiar to the bow community, like a Shrew or a Javaman or a Border. I would probably be ok if I'm just making a 'homage' bow for myself. But if I started making bows as a business, should I assume that there are patent somewhere I didn't realized existed?

Or is patent in trad bow design not a thing. "Its a bow.....they been made for millennium . Its like patenting the wheel."

I seem to remember reading that Hoyt did not patent the ILF system, because they preferred to encourage it's wider adoption.

Patenting is for inventing something unique or creating a new process. Something like the ACS limb cross section, or any of the limb fitting systems like DAS or ILF.

A Shrew might look unique, but there isn't anything unique about the actual design that would warrant a patent. If someone wanted to replicate one I think you'd be looking more at copyright violation but I think I doubt fighting anything like that would go anywhere.

Patent rules are the same for all. If its worthy of a patent..

The patent process has not as a general rule been highly pursued in the 'traditional' world.

Earl Hoyt never did patent the ILF system, Harold Groves didn't patent his Dynastress process, and on and on.

The ACS folks list the patent number on their website as I recall.

Unless you hold the Intellectual property rights to a product in the form of a patent or a protected design, you have no right of recourse to other peoples work or what people make that looks like your product. If XYZ archery comes up with a novel and unique design for a bow and doesn't protect their I.P then it's free to anyone to copy. Patents ( and I have 5 in my name) are only of value if you have the resources to fight an infringement through the courts. Protecting a design is often more of a protection than a patent.

So unless the estate of Howard Hill has valid and up to date IP protection for HH bows anyone can legally make a copy.

1buckout,

Sir, is that a picture of the ILF bolt on system? It sure look like the ILF brushing in #50-55. Or is that the DAS?

That is the ILF system patent.

Curious, how long is a patent valid? 20 years, 50 years, 100 years?

I remember when the Colt 1911 patent expired I think back in the 90's when other firearm manufactures started copying it... So that would be like 80 years... Ruger's 10/22 is now being copied, and think it was patent in the 60's so that would only be like 60 years... The Glock design is now being copied, but that was a foreign company, so I don't know...

Not many patents in the traditional archery community. There are lots of copies around. For example, the Chinese made Black Hunter is a pretty good copy of the Blacktail riser, the Tall Tines is strickingly similar the Shafer Silvertip, and there are a half dozen knock- offs of the extreme reflex/deflex Shrew.

BTW, not sure the Shrew was the first to come up with the extreme r/d design.

And it’s one thing to make a bow that LOOKS “just like a __________”…. Performance is not guaranteed by cosmetics. Then knock-offs and reproductions are one thing, but where a bowyer CAN get protection is to prevent anyone from selling a counterfeit.

I do know that a patent/trademark owner has to renew every so often, but US Patents expire after 20 years, or so Wiki says…. After that, ACS will have to convince people that they still have some trade secrets which make it impossible for an outfit like Samick or Hoyt or whoever else to produce a limb which is the EQUAL of an ACS, as opposed to just a copy. No doubt there will be cheap copies out there to be had….

Reminds me of the ‘80s when Toyota cut a deal with GM to build Corollas, which were sold as the “new” Chevy Nova. And the Chevy versions were absolutely Crap while the Toyotas remained Unkillable.

Interesting that the ILF drawings show a compound with small, round wheels…. Didn’t realize the system had been around that long, and had no idea that swapping limbs on a compound was ever even A Thing….

There are several patents particularly in the early days of archery. In the us a patent is good for 20 years

They all fed off of one another.

"In the us a patent is good for 20 years"

Thanks, but how's come the 1911 design wasn't copied for 80 years?

Oops, now I think about it there were 1911 copies in the 1980's...

There have been 1911 copies at LEAST as far back as 1915. FN was building them then in Norway. They just paid a royalty to Colt.

Patents can be renewed.

Norway is a foreign country BUT other U.S. companies were building 1911s for the World War efforts, Remington and Ithaca come to mind, and even Singer Sewing Machine... I know a guy who has a Remington, and those Singers are highly valued by collectors... Only assuming they had patent permission from Colt, but wouldn't know... Always found it amusing, John "Browning" invented it but Colt held the patent...

If you work for a company, generally THEY own the patent. Kinda sucks sometimes, but fortunately, Browning didn’t run out of good ideas.

I was just talking to a friend… Sounds like the ACS/A&H patent has now expired and we think South has that business. No word on competitors yet to my knowledge, but I’m not paying attention. Not really in the market these days.

And FWIW, it’s not shocking to me if 1911s weren’t being cloned (or maybe not apart from the war effort) until more recently. Guys going into Combat likely don’t care about “classics” — I’d sure as hell want the latest and greatest, if it were me….. It takes peace and prosperity to create a market for something like that…. Maybe I’m not looking close enough, but I can’t recall seeing any LEO types carrying a 1911. I have more recollection of the switch from S&W revolvers to Glocks & Berettas…..

"first to come up with the extreme r/d design." Sure! 122 thousand years ago, mongols, turks, huns, assyrians and many eastern nations...

What about different bow take down designs, are the patent?

I don't think patents are a big thing in the traditional archery world.

Perhaps this is rooted in our traditional history through Fred Bear? Whether it was bows, quivers, or heavens forbid even the pod...he never enforced his patents wanting the sport to grow. He knew if the sport grew, the pie would be larger even for his own interest.

Corax - for a lot of years through the 70s, 80s 90s and maybe even today elite teams like SWAT and HRT used 1911s.

About the only design that I can pull from the top of my noggin is the Bear Latch system. I do believe that was patent. I don't think there is a "knock-off" for limbs that match up or are interchangeable. I also do not remember seeing other foreign trash with that system either.

-Bones

hoyd did patent the ilf system (known as the hoyt doevetail system back then). it was applied for in 1983 and granted in 1985.

Lots and lots of LEO's carried 1911's in my neck of the woods. Evert Texas Ranger I ever met growing up carried one, virtually ever city constable, county sheriff, county deputy, etc. carried one. They were everywhere in Texas and they are still pretty prevalent.

The 1911 patent by the way wasn't filed or registered to Colt, it was filed by and registered to John Browning.

A patent doesn't keep someone else from making your product. it just means they are SUPPOSED to pay you for it.

I've tied and sold hundred's of dozens of Lefty Kreh's Lefty's Deceiver, Bob Clouser's Clouser Minnow, Lee Wulff's Royal Wulff and lots of others. There have been far more of most of those made and sold than any bow, and none of them were ever patented.

HuumanCreed,

Yes, that picture is Hoyt’s schematic for the patented HDS system —later to become known as ILF. Interesting that Hoyt never did refer to it as ILF and they now call it, Grand Prix. I don’t recall every reading that Hoyt sued anyone for copying their patent and now as they say, the rest is history.

Interesting you mention DAS. The DAS connection is also a copy of Hoyt’s design. They used it on several bows prior to developing the HDS system. Here’s a picture of a Hoyt Pro Medalist and later the Hoyt Axis riser for a couple. Does the limb attachment look familiar?

:^)

fdp - As I stated above: "Always found it amusing, John "Browning" invented it but Colt held the patent"

It was a John Browning design, while he was working for Colt...

Patenr sold to colt. Like all the patents sold to Winchester.

The term (length of time) a patent is good for has been changed a couple of times by statute. Patents were renewable in the past but I am not sure about now? A lot of the changes have come because of big tec and big pharma. The Bear takedown is trademarked so you could not make a bow and call it anything bear but the actual system should be out of patent. They (Bear) does not sell the sockets so you would neet to find some or have some machined to get the progect started. It would be very expensive and Bear would probably come after you anyway. The threat of a lawsuit is just as good as the real thing if the company you are going after doesn't have deep pockets. There was a thread on here a day or so ago about Bill Forberth. He held the patent on a center shot bow (sight window) that both Bear and Ben Pearson licensed and paid him royalties on every bow they made with one until the patent expired.

Thanks Lucas, that makes sense "Length of time" for patents have change over the years...

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