I know this is dangerous since most trad folks seem to be scared of discussing arrow speed, but curious how fast would you need a 500-550 grain arrow going to feel comfortable hunting larger game like elk and moose? I’m not concerned about deer and black bear, I’m pretty much convinced you could shoot through them with a soda straw out of a mid-30s bow.

Better get the popcorn and soda ready for the show lol

Oh snaps lol. No seriously though most of my bows I have tested with 5-600 grain arrows in my bow weight of 45-55# have all been in the 160-170 range for my vintage bows and my black widow and 180+ for a few bows like my old Predator or my Bob Lee. I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot any of those animals with my set up and a good 2 blade head. What’s crazy is what used to be considered poor arrow speed in the 1950s is now considered normal. I have an add from Bear archery from the mid fifties showing an acceptable arrow speed range. Back then more people shot 60+ pounds though.

According to Victory archery kinetic energy calculator 550 grain arrow @ 185fps gives 41.8 pounds energy. They recommend 42 minimum on elk . This will be an interesting educational discussion Next question what draw weight or bow to get a 550 grain arrow to 185fps

I like for it to get there before they move.

53#s recurve Elk 35 yds., 125 gr. 3 blade & 29" 2117 Aluminum shaft.. No problem + several Whitetails & a hog. I prefer 2216s now & no problems out of 50#s.

BearMan yes it appears that a lot of folks shot 60+ pounds in the 1950's from reading old ads, they also used Cedar shafts and primarily 2 blade heads?? I am certain not everyone did, but that was well before my time. Point is, a lighter cedar arrow from a 60+ lb bow would generate more speed than our EXTREME FOC arrows of today. Of course everyone knows you can't pierce an empty soda can unless your shooting 15 GPP and 55% FOC. <---<< HA!

I hope someone with legitimate information pipes in.

-Bones

Some folks throw around figures as if they know what they mean. :) Just FYI, 176 fps is 120 miles per hour. You think for one second that won't be pretty powerful medicine on elk, moose, etc.? Good gravy. Too bad we don't have a history to fall back on either.

Oh boy……

I shot a 2000# Eland at about 18/19 yards, with a 57#@28" recurve and a 29"BOP hexpine shaft/ 145gr. Eclipse broadhead, arrow weight just over 600gr. Broke a rib on entry and the broadhead was sticking out on the off side. Shot was tight behind the front shoulder.

Bob

170 fps would get you around 35 ft/lbs of KE. Should do it?

Even bow hunting legends like Fred were tinkering with arrow speed for 70+ years ago, I do it because I love archery and I can’t always be in the woods hunting. I could care less about arrow speed, but it’s fun to see a vintage 130.00 bow shoot faster and more efficient than a 2,000 custom bow made today. It’s just a hobby and people today are more tech oriented to a point then they were 70 years ago. That’s not a bad thing either. Shoot what you have the most confidence in I am sure with sharp broadheads and a heavy arrow you’ll be just fine.

lol... these comments... Without arrow speed, you don't have ke or momentum. Those that think a heavier slower arrow continues to carry the momentum down range best spend time with a chronograph!!

I'm not a heacvy arrow guy, don't believe I need an arrow at 10 gpp to kill elk. I've done it with 57 pound sticks and 50 pound sticks, with arrows weighing less then 450 grains.

I'd want an arrow that weight to be going at least 135 fps. :>)

just built my elk arrows today, they are full length 400 spine goldtip tradiionals they weigh in at 614 grain and chrono 150 fps this arrow will be shot from a 62 inch 55lb longbow, I am sure I will get a pass thru,

Folks don’t want to talk about FPS but they keep mentioning bow weight….just wish we could talk arrow weight and FPS. I’ve got a 45 super curve that shoots the same arrow weight faster then a #53 longbow…

I’m stirring the pot a little bit the summer doldrums are on…

Blues man I don’t think he was advertising because I’ve tested 50+ bear bows through my chrono, most of them would be considered poor by Fred’s chart. But they still

Work fine.

I’m thinking that chart made a guy think “my bow shoots too slow” and “I better buy a better bow.” Ole Fred was a helluva salesman. I have killed some big animals and don’t own a chronograph. Good arrow flight, razor sharp broadhead and put the arrow in the right spot and you are good to go. I don’t have proof, but I bet you Fred’s favorite bows barely shot into the “Fair” column.

Bear must have done that testing with very light arrows to get those speeds@ 28" draw. Guess it was just like todays marketing with compound bows claiming crazy velocities.

FWIW, I chrono'd my 50# bow @190 fps, but my arrow weight is 400 grains total. Have killed elk, bear, and mule deer.

"Next question what draw weight or bow to get a 550 grain arrow to 185fps"

That's the crux of it right there. And Biatholon might SEEM to be stirring the pot. But he's right. Draw weight means nothing. What's important is the weight and the speed. NOT discounting broadhead design, broadhead sharpness or arrow flight. But all that being equal, it's arrow weight and velocity. A given arrow might have velocity variations of 20 fps from a dozen bows of identical draw weight. Yet we keep seeing the same questions asked over and over about what is the minimum or best draw weight for hunting xxxxx animal.

Buglmin, sure but a heavier arrow will carry more momentum down range because the weight of the arrow is constant, where as both light and heavy arrows will lose speed over distance. Generally an arrow will lose 1-2 FPS per 5 grains added weight. Assuming the middle of 1.5 fps loss per 5 grains a 475 and 575 arrow have equivalent momentum until there is a sudden loss of speed, and then the advantage goes to heavy arrow. Still definitely shoot what ya like.

Such a pity, so many animals dying with poor bows. A lot of self bows & longbows don't break 160 by much using close to 10 grains per pound.>>>----> Ken

Funny thing, I bet there is not over 100 people on the Wall that knew what a chronograph was in 1955, or had one to use. ;))) bvd

i doubt if there ever was Bear bow that shot a 10 gpp arrow at 190 fps. And probably not even 180.

Can a Black Widow shoot a 10 gpp arrow 185 fps?

Great Plain Recurve, 55#, draw at 27in. Gold tip Arrow, 650 grs, 150 gr three bld BH. Shot 20 yards as the bull was quartering away. Penetration: Arrow went in at last rib, angled forward and stuck out 5 inches behind the opposite shoulder. One lung and liver. Bull down in 60 yards.

Arrow speed = 175 fpc. Reality check, all about effective range, and shot placement, and shoot or no shoot, and do you have confidence your equipment? This kill was while I was on the ground kneeling.

"Next question what draw weight or bow to get a 550 grain arrow to 185fps"

According to Stu’s calculator (3R version) a Howatt Hunter, #65@28 drawn 28” (fast flight) should do it. I padded the velocity by 10 fps on the assumption that the calculator is based on a shooting machine and a mechanical release.

But that’s only 8.5 GPP… A lot of bows will (theoretically) shoot about 185 off the fingers (still assuming a 10 fps penalty) at 8.5; you just have to go to #65 to make the math work. And the calculator doesn’t take changes in DL into account, so tall guys get a break and short guys get the shaft.

Larry once told me that a guy with my 26.5-ish DL ought to be able to crack 180 fps with one of his bows and a good string, but I don’t think he was assuming 9 GPP. If I can wring a documented 180 out of any of my set-ups with 500 grains or more, I’ll be sure to provide all the details….

I’ll play with the chronograph more today but I’ve not seen a bow yet break 180 with anything close to approaching 10 gpp, in fact only a super curve has broke 170. Maybe my chronograph is slow, but I use low stretch string with a better than 28” draw on mostly carbon limbed or “fast” R/D bows.

I knew I’d trigger some folks but the discussion has been interesting thus far. Still very few have answered the initial question….How fast would you need a 500 grain arrow to be going to feel comfortable using it for large game?

B.T., my experience says no…

So how did they measure arrow speed in 1955? Is it comparable to the accuracy of today's chronograph?

I doubt it was measured the same, because no bear bow I have ever tested was over 180 that I can think of, and I usually test every bow I get in my collection because I’m curious. The only bows I have seen over 185 was a 60# Predator Velocity with a 600 grain arrow shooting 190FPS, it blew through my targets LOL. It was a huge I made strings for that came to my house. As far as the black widow question above my 48# PMAX was inbthe 165-170 range with a 460 grain arrow, by far the lowest custom I have owned but it was a bad ass bow either way.

My MA was in that same range of 165-175 with a 29” draw. The only bows that come close are my ACS longbow and a Palmer recurve.

I made a lot of bows 10 or 15 years ago. Selfbows mostly. I lived on a farm then and could shoot for distance across a hayfield. A hunting bow had to be able to launch a 500-550 grain arrow over 150 yards. My best bows could shoot closer to 200 yards. Not really scientific, but it’s how I knew if one was a dog or not.

Max distance king of thing?

Cast has been used forever..it doesn’t lie, now chronographs are the measuring devices..they lie.

Yeah. I figured the better performers shot the furthest. I’m a simple guy. lol I had no trouble shooting through deer with bows that could launch a hunting weight arrow more than 150 yards. It seemed to be a pretty good minimum threshold for me. Those same arrows would typically always attain 180-220 yards with store bought modern fiberglass recurves. I think there is a crude formula in one of the Traditional Bow Builders Bibles related to conversion of distance shot to FPS, but I can’t quote it chapter and verse. I haven’t thought about speed too much in years. If I like the way a bow shoots , I take it hunting. Recently got a pass through on a wildebeest with a 60lb Bear Montana and a 650 grain 2117 aluminum which was probably in the poor column in that old speed chart.

The difference in MPH when going from 176fps to 185fps is just 6 MPH, 120 to 126. When you think of it that way, you aren't gaining a whole lot by chasing the 185 as some magical number.

Also, keep in mind that the fps chart on Fred Bear's ad is based on app 9gpp, which was the standard then for speed testing. People shooting more weight need to realize what those figures represent.

B.T., My BW's shoot 207 fps @ 8 gpp and 187 fps @ 9 gpp. I have never tried 10 gpp. I only hunt deer.

“Still very few have answered the initial question….How fast would you need a 500 grain arrow to be going to feel comfortable using it for large game?”

I would hazard a guess that at 500 gr, you probably only really need the arrow to be fast enough to provide a useful trajectory for the shots you’re prepared to take. But a typical recurve with a Dacron string (assuming 28” DL) should be able to hit about 160 fps at about #45 (Stu’s calculator, 3R version, assuming 10 fps penalty for fingers vs release).

So since you’re looking for a line in the sand (and because I trust you to know what that actually means) I’m gonna say that my Comfort Level starts at about 160.

Less theoretically, I’m pretty sure I was getting 165 out of my ‘90 Howatt Hunter (#55@28” according to mfr) with a heavy Dacron string and a touch over 500 grains of arrow, and that’s with about a 26.5” DL. (DISCLAIMER: while I have no specific reason to question it, I can’t vouch for the chrono and I only got to take a couple of shots). In any case, in the several years I hunted Elk with that set-up, I certainly never thought I might be underpowered. At better than #50 and about 10 GPP, why would you??

HEXX considering the high brace height on Black Widows, they are pretty good performers. They are so desirable that ultimate performance isn’t the goal, they build their bows to last forever.

When I started introducing archery about 1973. Nobody worried about aerospeed kinetic energy,feet per second, all you were worried about was putting a sharp broadhead in the right place. You know what it worked 50 years ago and it still works today. Stick a 2117 with a 2 blade threw anything it's going down if you hit the right spot. I often think we make this crap way too complicated supposed to be traditional archery keep it simple much more fun

I think it’s good to talk about bow performance and FPS. Unless your shooting a self bow, you have benefited from the testing of FPS and the benefits of a chrono whether you like to admit it or not. A bunch of bowyers use them and the data from FPS to test bows. It’s just a tool, I use mine all the time. I want to shoot the best arrow I can at game. That’s all it is.

Who’s making anything complicated? I shoot my bows and I get an idea how they compare to one another. But I do also tune my bows/arrow for perfect arrow flight so maybe I’m weird. Ha

I started shooting archery around 1970. Everyone wanted a fast bow. Bear was big, Wing was faster. In target Hoyt was battling Wing for the speed crown. In broadheads it was the Bear Razorhead vs. The Zwicky Delta. We had the big corporate archery companies products vs. the smaller custom shops. If anything it’s eased up, not gotten worse. I enjoy the progression of the sport in all directions, always something new… beautiful Self bows to ILF supercurves.

A good bow will shoot an arrow fast, they’re is nothing harsh nor bad about that. Matter a fact the faster a bow…while remaining quiet and shootable is best, in every way imaginable. Fastest bows I’ve ever tested that are still quite and shootable are dale dyes and earl Hoyt’s Skyhawks and earl Hoyt’s reflex longbows, in particular his Rogue take down. Earl advertised his bows speeds because of his accomplishments of still keeping quiet and shootable. I think 204fps amo

If, that sounds like a 22 short going off. That’s a whole other story. Or if it’s a fast bow that is not shootable that’s another story.

Speed lessens arch, increases KE, and simple gets to the target quicker. Most bows today, except for a very few will shoot 10 grains per pound at 166-171 fps. Schaffer, black tails, Bears, etc…

Funny thing, I bet the OP cut his archery teeth on a compound. By 1973 a lot of animals of all kinds had been killed with a bow without anyone worrying about speed.

I watched a guy trying to kill a bison with a spear. It appeared to be flying sideways before it hit. The video went to black and they waited to the next day to retrieve the dead buff. That spear had very little speed but they claimed it did the job. bvd

remind me again why chronographs are the devil ??? is it the same reason with camo, scents, cell phones ect ? sometimes i get mixed up.... wool is good right?

I did, late 1980s through early 90s….been into trad about 30 years now. I’m just not sure why arrow speed is so taboo. I went down the rabbit hole of the Ashby studies when they were big, I found I missed a lot more big game animals then I ever did when I was shooting lighter arrows faster. Been going down in arrow weight for the last few years and haven’t managed to not shoot through anything yet with my preferred 3 blade heads, but I don’t have the experience on larger game with archery tackle so thought I would ask…

Yeah…. AS IF there has ever been a single Hunting Archer in the history of the sport who would not be borderline deliriously happy if we could wave a magic wand over their favorite bow and make it 10% more efficient without affecting the bow in any other way. Some might prefer the speed bump. Others might prefer to be able to throw a heavier arrow at the exact velocity they’re used to. Nobody would pass that up for any reason other than to be able to say that they did and I am wrong about that, too.

Lord knows no bowyer ever left any more speed on the table than he felt he had to in order to get a design to shoot the way he (or she) wanted it to….

My elk set up is 525g and I'm 178 fps... disclaimer... I've never killed an elk with it. Let's revisit in 7 weeks. : )

500g over 170 should do it... cut on contact and THE MOST important thing here... perfect tune/arrow flight.

Good luck - Allan

I have enjoyed this thread and appreciate the information shared here, for the most part. I think that for a lot of us you can never gain to much real information. For others they are simply content with going out and shooting. That's perfectly okay too, but it does not appear the OP was looking to just go fling some arrows. I'll agree also with the comment about who's making it complicated. If you tune your arrows, bare shaft, paper, chrono, whatever, you are ultimately trying to get the best tune possible and the more factors you can add the better the flight gets. Having a 27" draw I have not achieved 180 fps with a 10 GPP arrow. And I have shot several different bows through a Chrono.

-Bones

I wanted to add some data to this. Just more to ponder really. I shot some through the Chrono, but have -0- experience hunting elk, this is just for thoughts on draw weight to get the speed/arrow weight together. Bow 1 Locksley Tiger 64" scales 48@27" and 7.5" Brace height

arrow 1 - Weighed 498.8 grains 10.3GPP average speed of 156.4fps Arrow 2 - Weighed 546.0 grains 11.39 GPP average speed of 145fps The second arrow was weak for this bow, the first arrow is the arrow I like best both are 500 spined cut 29" Nock groove to BOP.

Bow 2 Bear Super Kodiak 60" Scales 63@27 and 8&3/8 Brace height

Arrow 561 grain 8.9GPP(30" 400 spine Gold Tip Trad with some extras), Average speed of 165 FPS

Being again I know nothing about Elk hunting and piercing one, I feel like combination 1&1 may not be something I would take, just not confident enough in that with a larger bodied animal. However, I think the second bow option with current 561 grain arrow would do the job, I would leave here knowing nada and still feel good about the opportunity.

-Bones

Oooops....

Portage, you're basically correct--wool, cedar shafts, turkey fletching, and Dacron strings are all trad and good; step outside those boxes and you run the risk of being slapped with a trad citation. In fact, you may also be guilty of "trad sarcasm," which is a new category of offense that also ought to be punished. ;-)

This has been fun, thank you for keeping it mostly civil. I sent a PM to tucker about his 500ish grain arrows and killing big game and he stated that he thought his arrows were in the 160-170 neighborhood but had never checked. Just more food for thought.

Incidentally — I ran the numbers through the calculator for my daily driver at my DL and 10.2 GPP, and got right around 176, as I recall. So figuring reasonable loss in velocity coming off of fingers vs. a release, and I’m running 533gr @ probably right around 160-165.

And I wasn’t having any trouble with the trajectory the other day — not until I started mailing ’em in from the 70-yard slab, anyway. I shoot from there often enough that I have a semi-soft gap pretty well ingrained, and that first shot dropped about 20 feet short of the target…. Probably just a coincidence that a 10% heavier arrow carried about 10% shorter distance, but there’s some symmetry there somewhere….

The the OP's question. An arrow of about 500 grains is not really that light. A POC shaft at 29" with a 150 grain point is about 503 grains...and a lot of large game has been taken with that set up. If you could push it 165 fps+ you'd probably be fine w/ good shot placement, assuming good or better arrow flight, and a distance of less than 25 yards.

Broadhead design and arrow diameter are also factors to consider. A sharp 2 or 3 blade head with a longer shallow blade angle will help, as will a smaller( .204 or .166) shaft. That is, assuming you are good with flinging carbon ;-).

Mass and speed are important to consider, but it's also important to remember that they are for overcoming the resistance that the target applies to the arrow. If you can tweak your arrow set up to minimize drag in the animal then you will get more out of the momentum that your set up produces. That's all just my 2 cents worth( and it's not worth more than a penny ;-).

What kind of string did Bear use for their tests? They had access to lower stretch strings than dacron. bvd

I think Fred used a fast chronograph.

Fred knew the rocket scientist that built the chronograph. If you are selling a product on based on the outcome of a test, you want that test to come out in your favor. bvd

Fred never divulged the weight of the arrow tested. Meaningless results. My widow will shoot 200 +fps with a light enough arrow. incomplete data.

I store my scientific data in the freezer.

Good thing bow season is only a couple more months away.

We are almost out of data.

Shade - hilarious. Chuckled over coffee this morning.

Let’s bring this back up, anyone done any chronograph testing of your big game rigs in the last few months.

I did.

Bob Lee Shikari supercurve.

62#@29 DL. True 29.

185,184,186,185,185

Consistently 185 and that was after being in the cold woods all day hunting. Warmed up a bit on the drive, but stopped by local archery shop to get arrows and they had the chrono set up. So I used it because I was curious. I knew it was fast just didn’t know how fast.

Arrows were axis 300 with 200 up front. Wraps and 4 inch feathers 3.

Wt on that arrow was 597, flighty under 10 gpp.

Take it for what it’s worth, one of the best shooting bows I have owned. Recently sold because I don’t like the weight or look of micarta. But that bow is an absolute shooter of a bow and I am sure I will regret letting it go. But those are the speeds I got.

Couple of the guys who work there tried. One gent thought he was 29 inch draw but chrono said otherwise. We also marked the arrows to measure. It was 165-167 at 27.

165 fps

Whatever you get from #55 on fingers bow is good - usually anything above 165fps is adequate.

I'm shooting the Border limbs on my Bear riser, 46 pounds, 424 grain arrow at 199 fps at 20 yards. Over 203 three feet in front of the bow. And penetration is unreal on mule deer, black bear and whitetails. I'm at 194 with a 465 grain arrow at 20 yards.

Bearman, Thank you for posting that Bear article, I have never seen it before. First things first, " a good bow is fast ". I have shared this before, I have a BW SAX and a KBV both 40# at 28". Lowest BW recommended BH, 8", 8 gpp 207 fps, 9 gpp, hunting weight 187. I guess by Bears chart I am good to go.

Just checked. Bow #1: 62" takedown Blacktail recurve, 45# @ 28", 7 1/2" brace String: BCY 8190, 2X6 w/ loops padded to 24, double served w/ (4) cat whiskers Arrow weight: 431.7 grains Draw length: 28" Arrow velocity: 172 fps, 3 arrow average

Bow #2: 62" one piece Blacktail recurve, 45# @ 28", 7 5/8" brace String, Arrow Weight and Draw length: same as Bow #1 Arrow velocity: 173 fps, 3 arrow average

Now we are getting somewhere...

I'm just hopeful that someday we can get to discussing arrow weight and FPS instead of arrow weight and bow poundage...

I'd feel comfortable with 180 with a 500G arrow that heavy. Like... comfortable that I may not see my arrow after the pass through...

A perfectly tuned arrow and cut-on-contact two blade helps the math.

Jar

The discussion isn't complete without the inclusion of draw length (not just arrow length) also.

Not trying to be difficult, but...

If we have arrow weight and FPS is draw length relevant???

I hunt with 63-66# D/R longbow and recurve. 600-700 grain arrows spitting out at 173-189 fps.

What ever the arrow speed, if you are holding plus or minus 1 fps, your form it pretty darn good.

RonL

Currently I am shooting a Deerseeker Hawk Recurve 62" 45#@28". It measures 51#@30". With a 723grain arrow it repeatedly posted 160- 162fps. This is not my normal arrow recipe. I am just trying to get some first hand results on pigs with an extremely heavy arrow.

Idk why people get so defensive when this topic is brought up. Some Of these comments just make me shake my head. Nobody cares about arrow speed because we need it to kill and animals. Obviously it’s just a tool we use to measure the effectiveness of our weapon of choice. Most Stickbows are on the slow side, so trying to get the most effective arrow combination is not a bad thing. Every time someone brings up arrow speed, you get the crowd that says speed doesn’t matter. We all know this to be true. I use my chrono all the time, it’s fun to try and find the best arrow set up. Here’s a picture I found of an old chrono used in the 50s. I don’t know how accurate they were. Caring about speed was just as important back then as it is today.

However to answer your question. I personally would like to see 500 grains moving 175fps plus for elk.

"If we have arrow weight and FPS is draw length relevant???"

It's complicated. Lets say I have a 26" DL, I shoot an ASL and all I read is "you need 175fps for a 600gr arrow to kill an elk". I look at this an I am thinking two things:

1. How many years do I need to train to shoot confident a #75 at my DL ASL to get that speed for that arrow

2. I have a change of heart and let the elks alone.

There is the 3rd option: "F word internet, I am going to hunt with what I have". But if I had that attitude I wouldn't ask for speed.

Kinetic energy? I would not worry a second about that. A 40# @ 28 modern bow drawn to 28" and shooting a 400-grain tuned to your bow carbon arrow, put where it needs to be with the proper scary sharp broadhead will reliably kill elk. The hunter is the deciding factor, not the bow.

Quiet kills, just shoot a fast arrow from a loud bow and see what happens!!!

Been a while, anyone do anymore testing? I got a new bow with two sets of limbs, I’ll try to get it tested this weekend if the rain ever lets up.

Paul, and Karl S make very good sense.

Hey Brad, what’s the new setup?

If you look at the classifieds, it seems that most of them are fast. Or so they say in the ads. Without a chronograph you really don't know. Even then, chrographs vary a bit Mine reads a tad faster in bright sunlight. Back in my compound days I had aanager of a large archery shop.jome that the chronograph was his best bow salesperson.

A question that is difficult to answer as not all arrows penetrate equally, even when they weigh the same and are traveling the same speed. Type of broad head and sharpness is a major factor. So is FOC, shaft diameter, and shaft material.

Looks like Ollie is overlooking TUNE as a key factor in penetration, as the initial resistance to penetration will multiply your loss of Pen due to tuning issue(s).

The faster the arrow the flatter the trajectory and that can have a big effect on your range guestimation in the woods. Read/heard plenty of stories of "missed" cuz over or under or...? Really it boils down to staying within your closer ranges and being confident at THOSE distances. Also consider how fast that arrow will lose speed depending on your fletching. Yes, big feathers help stabalize big broadheads but also big feathers are used in fluflus to slow them down fast. I don't want that.

A lot of trade offs for sure. Me? I like faster arrows. Bout the only thing I do or like faster at 70.

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