Shoot fletched broadheads and field points at a vertical line. If they group together on the vertical line you are tuned.

For a right handed shooter if they group left of the vertical line they are stiff, if they group right they are weak.

Like OO I had used the other methods, then tried what FDP stated when I had an English longbow that was giving me fits. Fast and instant results!

You will know immediately if you have ill-flying arrows, so if you see anything except a missile streaking from your bow, you need to check it. Yep, you have to shoot a line as far as you're capable of shooting one, I generally shoot out to 55 or 60 yards to verify alignment. You can also have a good archer stand behind you...and a little above as well to view the shot.

“You can also have a good archer stand behind you...and a little above as well to view the shot.”

Even better, have them film the shot on a phone in slo-mo mode (holding the phone vertically) so that you can pick it apart a frame at a time. Works best if your arrow contrasts with the background, such as a dark arrow against snow (or a white sheet hung behind the target). I also would recommend fletching 3 of one color; contrasting cock feather makes it harder to see what’s happening.

The thing about fishtailing and porpoising is that both of those things can occur even with arrows that are properly spined.

Fishtailing, which is the side to side wagging of the arrow should be curable with a brace height adjustment. UNLESS you are seriously out of spec. and you are having other issues as well.

Porpoising, which is the up and down wagging of the arrow in the VAST MAJORITY of cases is curable with a nock locator/string nock adjustment.

There are exceptions to everything that has to do with tuning a bow because WE are holding them and WE are not machines. But there is no reason to over complicate the process if you don't need to.

"The only range that is local for me is maxed at 20 yd and that seems to be the minimum distance required to acquire reliable information."......that isn't exactly the case.

While being able to shoot further is a good thing, you can use 20 yards just fine by looking at the density of your groups. If you have arrows grouping 3" left or right of the line at 20 yards you know that is going to increase at 40 yards. So you make the same adjustments that you would if you were shooting at 40 yards. When you get your groups as tight as you are capable of getting them at 20 yards and centered on the vertical line go with it.

Even paper tuning at just a few feet is considered to be "reliable information", so the results you get at 60 feet should be considered as reliable as well,

Which kind of nocks you use is totally irrelevant. How tight they fit is a relevant thing. I've used glue-on nocks since I started shooting real arrows in the 1960's and never found them to be problematic.

"It is interesting that you bring up paper tuning"...it's because there are multiple ways to achieve a properly tuned bow/arrow combination despite what some people would lead you to believe. And the end result is the same, so do what works for YOU.

Orange -

Your question assumes a few things. 1. you can actually see what the arrow is doing in flight (and at 20 yards, if you can, that may be causing another problem); 2. You can tell the difference between fishtailing due to a weak vs a stiff arrow.

That being said, for a pretty large number of people hear, an apparently straight flight with fletched arrows is "close enough for gov't work". The problem with that however, is that even the smallest fletch available can hide a multitude of sins.

But, it really is up to you. This is a hobby, and unless you are or plan on competing at a pretty high level, there are very few hard and fast rules.

Viper out.

Orange -

If the arrow is close to being under your eye, seeing it in flight at 20 yards, implies that you are moving your head, aka "peaking", or dropping your bow arm to get a clear view of the arrow. The problem arises if you moved your head or dropped the bow before or after the arrow left the string.

Fact is that 40 - 50 years ago, visual arrow flight (usually by an observer standing behind the shooter) was about all we did. Then we realized just how little that actually meant. Like an apparently clean (fletched) flight that translated to a bare shaft several feet off the target @ 20 yards.

Like I said on my website, there are 5 stages of tuning. We all have to pick how far we want to go, and there really is no right or wrong answer.

Viper out.

A comment about nocks; while nock fit to the string is important, of more importance is alignment of the nock with the axis of the shaft. The nock end of the arrow is in my opinion the most important part of making arrows!! Crooked nocks start the arrow off course the moment it leaves the string. Since its impossible to get each nock off the same amount and orientation, arrows will print all over the place, everything being consistent. It is however possible to get every nock on straight and that is only possible by having the shafts taper in line with the axis of the shaft.

Many years ago I had the good fortune of being asked to judge several arrow making contests, and the most common error I found was "nock alignment"

Bob

While it isn't the only tune indicator I use - I very much agree with: "Toe the mark, and shoot the line." as part of the process.

Rick

An arrow shot off the fingers will fishtail like a trout through water for something like 15 to 18 yards before settling down. That is normal and nothing to worry about, except that large fletching will settle quicker than small does. I use large fletching for short range hunting, but don't worry about it for targets to 100 yards.

The best way to see it is in the evening with the setting sun behind you. Shoot at 20 yards but try to focus your eyes at an imaginary point short of that. I don't worry overmuch about wigwagging but I do about porpoising up and down. This is the ultimate way to tune your nock height. You want to see the arrow rise, level off and perhaps drop a trifle into the target at 20 yards. - lbg

As Viper stated seeing the flight well enough to interpret it correctly is the problem. All of you have seen arrows clear the bow & the flexing shafts referred to as archers paradox, in slow motion. Can you see it normally? Your tune has to be pretty bad in order to see it. Bare shaft strikes in relation to fletched shafts or broad head strikes in relation to target points is far more accurate than the average person can see. >>>----> Ken

These FMJs shot from my Javaman Impala express were technically tuned correctly. And impacted on the target as thus should. But watching them in slo mo. Showed me that the arrow flexed back and forth all the way to the 20 yard target. And I hunt with my bows so do not like all the wasted energy.

So when preparing for my 2022 Eland hunt I chose my Bushman Xyphose supercurve static tip bow. And what on a chart would be called a too stiff spine. Valkyrie Reign 350s. Cut to 30” With 1.5” fletch and 350 weight up front. 49# bow @27”

This has my arrows impacting off the line as stiff. But flew without all the undulations and wasted energy. And still flying straight. So I simply moved the bow hand and changed POI that way.

The result was a dead mature eland killed in May when they are plump and in prime condition.

As said above there are many ways to arrive to the same spot. And I do not have all of my bows set up this way. But for max penetration that’s how I skin the cat

Couldn’t you just shoot fletched arrows at a vertical line?

I once did an experiment comparing paper tune versus where the arrow hit. I shot the group of arrows several times at twenty yards being extremely careful of my release. Then I sperated the arrows according to how they grouped on the vertical line. Then I shot both sets of arrows . [paper tuned versus grouped arrows] Taking note how each arrow shot according to how they were tuned [group spined versus paper tuning] I found the grouped arrows grouped much better. I did this many times just to confirm the difference wasn't caused by shooting errors. Suprisingly the grouped arrows were more accurate then the paper tuned arrows. I went to several 3d shoots and the results were confirmed again.

I shot into AA Barebow Bowhunter using the method, no bareshafting. That was on the field archery course under PSAA guidelines which aligned with NFAA rules of that time. Granted that was barebow bowhunter with the 1978 Jennings T-Star, split finger one anchor. 480 out of 560 was my high and averaged around 450. Hell, maybe I would have reached 500 if I bareshafted. One can only dream. :))

I shoot at 5yds in my garage at a large box of rags as a backstop with a pizza box in front. There is a cavity between the box and the compacted rags. If the arrow nock ends up angled left it is too stiff, if right to weak, and if straight just right or real close anyway. Sounds too simple but so far it has worked with different bow/arrow combinations and I've done it enough to predict the ones going in straight will also fly straight at longer distances. This is shooting LH. I've never bare shaft tested but used to paper tune for compounds a long time ago.

Shooting the line is good enough for 90% of us

If you can see what is happening like in Altitude Sickness's stop action picture then maybe you can flight tune. Most of us are just getting started when we get good flight. The action is too fast to see unless it is very bad.

You can just shoot the line with fletched arrows but you will never know when you are tuned. If that matters to you.

Paper tuning works great with compounds specifically shot with a release. That nearly eliminates the side to side flexing like seen in the above picture. The problem with paper tuning is the distance to the paper. At what point are you catching the so called archer's paradox. You could tune simply by moving the paper a little at a time until you find the point where the shaft is near straight.

That is the point of comparing bare & fletched shafts. The feathers are correcting. You can see the difference in the target.

The point of comparing broadhead & target point. When the shaft starts off at an angle the broadhead catches air & continues to plane off in that direction. The feathers can't straighten it as easy as a target point. If you read, look at the above picture, & think about it, you will get it. >>>----> Ken

One man’s experience: Ken is Not Wrong.

And if you are good bare-shaft at 20, you’re pretty damn close. But Rick is Not Wrong, either. You need to add about the weight of your fletchings to the tail of your arrow on a bare shaft to even things up.

20 yards may not be far enough to achieve Perfection, but (JMO) it IS far enough to make a big difference through bare-shafting. But if FPs and BH hit the same at 20 and that’s as far as you shoot, straight is straight.

That said, it’s pretty freaking cool to Send an arrow 65 yards straight down the middle, bare-shaft. Maybe I’m indulging myself, but (so far) I figure if it hasn’t turned off course by 65 yards, it’s probably not going to…

Agree 100%

I don’t understand Vipers comment on seeing the arrow at 20 yards. I see the arrow all the way until it gets below my point on. This is shooting in my basement at 19 yards and I never loose sight of the arrow.

The bow is tuned by paper though and it’s purposely tuned with a little left tear at about 6 feet.

If you are shooting the line with fletched shafts and you have proper fletching clearance you are tuned.

I totally agree Jason H 100%

I’ve tuned by fletched arrow flight for over 50 years. If the arrow flies straight and true to the spot I’m aiming at what more does one need!

Rarely do I need to adjust brace height and/or nock point after all these years of doing the same thing/my method. The shorter the bow one is shooting the more critical the adjustments.

Have bought many used bows over the years where the previous owners string is on it and don’t understand how they could be getting straight arrow flight with nock points set at 1” or more above square. I feel finding the correct/lowest nock point for your particular style is the least understood. There is more margin for error on the high side than on the low.

Regarding brace height most every bow can be shot at varying brace height. Again way more margin on the high side than low. But the low side imo is the best for performance. Then the nock point becomes critical.

Regarding arrow spine most people can shoot a variety of spines effectively. Again stiffer is most times better because it gives more margin for error. I tend to use stiffer spines because I’m only hunting and want the arrow to correct the fastest for straight entering broadhead flight at close range, under 20 yards and most cases under 15.

If you feel the necessity of using other tuning methods by all means go for it. But I don’t, never have nor will I need to in the future.

Enjoy the flight of an arrow amongst Mother Nature’s Glory!

I messed with a lot of tuning in early years and gravitated with shooting like Kelly mentions above

works fine for me

shooting a bare shaft like Ken Beck showes in his vidieo will get you in the ball park really quickly (watching in flight and hitting the line -not how angled in the target

Kisatchie,I agree with you I have always tuned my bows that way, I've been shooting recurves for 40years and have never had a problem tuning my bows that way, I probably shouldn't say this but I think alot of these guys are beating themselves up on tuning

Guys -

I posted this last year on another forum. You might find some of the comments interesting...

https://www.archerytalk.com/threads/stop-trying-to-tune-your-bows.6149206/

Viper out.

Ive often wondered if the Native Americans put much thought into tuning their bows, Im assuming they did, they probably even had a rudimentary understanding of arrow spine. It sure would be cool to see how they did it.

I always enjoy reading the tuning threads. I like to tinker admittedly. Question: If bare shafts and fletched shafts group together, the argument is "you're tuned". What if the groups are together yet the bare shafts are at considerable (consistent) angle in the target? (And perhaps visually flying other than straight)?

I know given enough distance, the angled flight would generate different grouping between the bare shafts and fletched shafts. However, it is possible to get good groups with obvious poor bare shaft flight. When that is the case it would seem more appropriate to adjust to get bare shaft flight better before moving back. I guess in the end, my question is: Which method is more sensitive to spine problems???? mg

Actually the question would be which method is more subject to shooter inconsistency ?

Matt -

Ah, no. The fact that keeps getting forgotten is the exact same forces that cause the (BS vs F) separation, causes the nock kick out. You can think of the nock kick out is what causes the separation. IOWs, for the data to be valid, the two have to agree (be in opposite directions) or shooter error is over-riding the tune.

Viper out.

If you bareshaft tune taking into consideration the same angle of your cant, then bareshaft tuning works the same as when done with a vertical bow.

You can use tape the same weight as your fletching, and tune the bareshaft dead on, or if you've been bareshaft tuning long enough, and know what you need, you can bare shaft to be slightly weak, and the fletching will stiffen it up to where you want it.

It all works. Just pick your poison, and make sure you know how to swallow it. :-)

Rick

K -

Go back and read the thread I linked above. When reality sets in, most people here in the 20 yards and under crowd should NOT worry about tuning beyond visual inspection.

But, even with that, there is a placebo effect, and it's quite real.

Viper out.

I learned that some fellas are just as arrogant on other sites as they are here.

I'm not surprised.

I just read Kelly's comments and find they mirror my experiences and conclusions over these many years. Many of us are into this sport we cherish because of its relative simplicity and relaxation that comes from it, and fully realizing these definitions vary among us.

"placebo effect" if I take the time to "tune" my arrows I'm more confident when I shoot.

I've been at this for awhile now and I really don't go through a whole lot of effort to have good flying arrows.

Brace ht is from the wrist to tip of middle finger, nock ht is 5/8" on every bow, recurve or longbow doesn't matter. Either 1816 or 1916 will fly perfectly. Then that's the arrow I use for that bow.

They go where I want them to whether it's a field point or matched wt broadhead. I watch them go down range fully fletched in a perfect blur without wobble. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

I just got a new hybrid longbow last week. Nock set at 5/8, brace set with my hand. I took an educated guess and took a quiver of 1816's to the range and started shooting perfect flying arrows. Done.

You guys are trying to complicate a simple thing.

Orange -

The more confidence you have in your rig, the better you shoot, regardless if the confidence is real or imagined.

Viper out.

“Shooting the line is good for 90 percent of us”. What about the rest

I couldn’t agree with you more Red Beastmaster shooting a traditional archery is simplistically nothing more!!!

I'm not arguing here, so don't take it that way.

Sure, some folks like to keep it simple (as simple as they can), and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that (nothing).

But, some folks like to squeeze every bit of performance, and accuracy they can get out of their setup. That's when it starts getting a little more complicated.

I'm one of the latter. I thrive on the challenge of complication, and love the results when I achieve them. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that either (nothing).

It's "ALL" fun to me. :-)

Rick

Good comment Rick.

Shoot the line is all I've ever done. I'll do plenty of shooting at 17yds and if they're not tuned right even at this distance you can see the difference. Then I confirm at 22-25yds. But that's as good a shooter as I am as far as consistency. But if you're a good shooter out to 30+ I can certainly see using the other methods! I sure wish I could I would probably play with paper or bare shafts! I always tuned my compound basically same way but I've went to paper tuning lately and it sure works. But I can shoot consistently accurate at 60 yds and big difference between an arrow flying 275fps vs 155fps!

i make my own shafts. fletch them all & put points/nocks on. those that all i see is the nock, i put broadheads/knapped points on. if they still fly true, i hunt with them. i'm a pretty simple guy...

Pondscum2 exactly simple guy it’s not science

Bare shaft and paper tuning is easy with a compound and mechanical release. The Human factor has been removed from the process. You are simply adjusting a machine.

“ it’s not science”

Ummmmmmm……

Let’s see…. Tuning is predictable, repeatable and adheres without exception to fundamental laws of Physics, so….. Yes, it most certainly IS science.

You don’t have to be a gifted mechanic to drive a car, but the better mechanic you are, the easier it is to fix it when something breaks.

Now there is a well tuned bow. The arrows still need a little work. >>>----> Ken

I always figured that to bareshaft, my form needed to be repeatable like a machine to get accurate results. I will never be a machine, so I shoot the line with fletched arrows and that's what I hunt with. No care to shoot and score at targets...I want to be able to shoot a rabbit that runs out there at 25 yards or maybe 30 or 40 and in 2 seconds get off an accurate shot that puts it down. I've witnessed people who get their form so good that they can shoot bareshafts just perfect...and their form needs to be that repeatable form...but put them into a quick shooting, random shooting stance situation and their form suffers and that perfectly tuned arrow suddenly is not.

Why not do both? Accuracy is accuracy and a small target is a small target, whether you’re shooting “for score” or for the pot.

Pretty sure nobody ever missed a rabbit because they were “too well tuned”….and if I’m not mistaken, the point of a well-tuned arrow is that it’s more forgiving of the form errors that can creep in under those less-than-ideal shooting positions you’re talking about, so the downside is….

????

Pretty good ones, Supernaut and Ken!

One of the many things that Schulz taught me as he was instructed by Hill and that was total concentration on the spot. Black out everything else. People listen to him say that on his video and the first assumption is blacking out distractions of where to aim. Schulz taught me he really meant black out everything. Don't think about form, anchor, release, follow through. Everything that would distract from total concentration on the spot. If you concentrate hard enough you won't know if you didn't touch anchor but it doesn't matter because the arrow will be in the spot you're looking and that's the desired result.

You cannot think about reaching anchor, then hold, aim, expand, release, follow through etc if your only thought is on the spot to hit. All other parts of the shot are completely relegated to muscle memory and hand eye coordination which is refined through long hours of practice of shooting form until it's totally ingrained. Schulz likened it to a basketball player who doesn't think about one single part of his form when dribbling down the court and pulling up for a jump shot. He sees the basket and shoots in one fluid motion. That which is seen is the result of countless hours of practicing the same thing over and over.

Schulz said this was one of the things that frustrated people trying to shoot like Hill. They didn't understand the concentration part and not thinking of things during the shot... But Hill himself instructs exactly that, and says that's exactly what he does in his book, and people miss it.

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