Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Briefly puzzled over new TBM cover

Messages posted to thread:
Seneca_Archer 18-Aug-21
Chuck Simpson 18-Aug-21
Scoop 18-Aug-21
Orion 18-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 18-Aug-21
M60gunner 18-Aug-21
Buglmin 18-Aug-21
Backcountry 18-Aug-21
George D. Stout 19-Aug-21
White Falcon 19-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 19-Aug-21
babysaph 19-Aug-21
hunterbob 19-Aug-21
M60gunner 19-Aug-21
Krag 19-Aug-21
Buglmin 19-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 19-Aug-21
Backcountry 20-Aug-21
SB 20-Aug-21
TradToTheBone 20-Aug-21
mec lineman 20-Aug-21
A Tag 20-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 20-Aug-21
TradToTheBone 20-Aug-21
grizz 20-Aug-21
Fred Bauder 20-Aug-21
Jegs.mi 21-Aug-21
A Tag 21-Aug-21
Backcountry 21-Aug-21
Babysaph 21-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 21-Aug-21
Backcountry 21-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 21-Aug-21
Backcountry 21-Aug-21
Backcountry 21-Aug-21
kennym 21-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 21-Aug-21
Grizz 22-Aug-21
grizz 22-Aug-21
Riverwolf 22-Aug-21
jk 22-Aug-21
trad_bowhunter1965 22-Aug-21
Riverwolf 22-Aug-21
Tim Finley 22-Aug-21
Orion 22-Aug-21
Tim Hoeck 22-Aug-21
Tim Hoeck 22-Aug-21
Backcountry 22-Aug-21
David Mitchell 22-Aug-21
Uncle Lijiah 22-Aug-21
aromakr 22-Aug-21
Babysaph 22-Aug-21
grizz 22-Aug-21
Codjigger 23-Aug-21
Red Dogs 23-Aug-21
Backcountry 23-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 23-Aug-21
grizz 23-Aug-21
Jegs.mi 23-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 23-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 23-Aug-21
Backcountry 23-Aug-21
grizz 23-Aug-21
Red Dogs 23-Aug-21
Rik Davis 23-Aug-21
Backcountry 23-Aug-21
Selkirk North Luke 23-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 23-Aug-21
Wapiti - - M. S. 24-Aug-21
Rooster 24-Aug-21
reddogge 24-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 24-Aug-21
A Tag 25-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 25-Aug-21
A Tag 25-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 25-Aug-21
reddogge 25-Aug-21
MikeT 25-Aug-21
Phillipshunt 25-Aug-21
Liquid Amber 16-Sep-21
Backcountry 16-Sep-21
Liquid Amber 16-Sep-21
Phillipshunt 16-Sep-21
Backcountry 17-Sep-21
Phillipshunt 17-Sep-21
Backcountry 17-Sep-21
vikingbear 17-Sep-21
fdp 17-Sep-21
Buckdancer 17-Sep-21
Krag 17-Sep-21
cut it out 17-Sep-21
grizz 17-Sep-21
Phillipshunt 17-Sep-21
grizz 17-Sep-21
Phillipshunt 18-Sep-21
Riverwolf 18-Sep-21
grizz 18-Sep-21
Phillipshunt 18-Sep-21
Phillipshunt 18-Sep-21
Randog 18-Sep-21
Altitude Sickness 18-Sep-21
Seneca_Archer 18-Sep-21
hunterbob 18-Sep-21
Matt B 20-Sep-21
grizz 20-Sep-21
Harleywriter 20-Sep-21
Phillipshunt 21-Sep-21
Backcountry 21-Sep-21
Phillipshunt 21-Sep-21
Backcountry 21-Sep-21
Phillipshunt 22-Sep-21
two4hooking 22-Sep-21
Jegs.mi 22-Sep-21
Riverwolf 22-Sep-21
Phillipshunt 22-Sep-21
Riverwolf 22-Sep-21
Phillipshunt 22-Sep-21
Backcountry 22-Sep-21
Phillipshunt 23-Sep-21
From: Seneca_Archer
Date: 18-Aug-21




Got the new TBM today and was briefly puzzled by the right-handed bow and the left-handed archer. Closer inspection revealed a bow limb and string on the far side of the sore-footed archer.

From: Chuck Simpson Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 18-Aug-21




I too was puzzled by the picture until I realized the picture taker was right handed.

From: Scoop Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 18-Aug-21




Me too. I had to study it again.

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 18-Aug-21




Yep. Nice pair of Russell boots. Looks like he's putting them on for the first time.

Anyone notice the small error in the last issue? The piece on broad heads misidentified a Hunter head as a Hill head.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 18-Aug-21

Phillipshunt's embedded Photo



Yep I saw that. Wayne Van Zwoll used to write for a lot of the rifle magazines I guess he’s moonlighting as a bowhunter lol. He wrote an article about Howard Hill that was basically a copy paste job from several books and other articles.

From: M60gunner
Date: 18-Aug-21




I read the article about Ben Pearson today. I can’t imagine 3,000 bows a day made and 36,000 arrows.

From: Buglmin
Date: 18-Aug-21




Lol... Wayne Van Zwoll is a huge bowhunter, and killed a lot if elk with a howatt hunter and zwickey heads, not to mention mule deer, antelope and black bear. He wrote for Bowhunter Magazine and Bow&Arrow in the 80's and 90's. He killed his first deer, a monster muley from a tree stand before he was 16, and had the story published in Bowhunter Magazine. He was very consistent in killing elk and mule deer in the back country. He difinitly isnt just "moonlighting" as a bowhunter.

From: Backcountry
Date: 18-Aug-21




Wayne relieved me of a very nice ‘67 Wing Thunderbird as it fit his huge hands better than mine. At his 32” draw, it probably pulls over 65 lbs, which he handles with ease. I made him up a dozen 2219’s for it.

He works extremely hard as a writer and everything he does. I know, because he was a housemate for a couple years while working on his PhD. All the while, he was still making a living researching and writing articles for numerous outdoor publications, along with several books on rifle shooting. And guiding elk hunters at the famed Deseret Ranch.

So, ya—Wayne may have mis-identified a Hill broadhead, or maybe someone else wrote that photo caption.

From: George D. Stout
Date: 19-Aug-21




And there you have the rest of the story...from page two.

From: White Falcon
Date: 19-Aug-21




Pic of the cover.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 19-Aug-21




All I’ve ever seen of ol Wayne is Guns and ammo articles and a poorly written TBM article about Hill. Like I said he’s a part timer moon lighting. I guess if you consider rifles and compound bows bowhunting and the occasional recurve....I don’t and that’s the rest of the story lol.

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 19-Aug-21




wow. 3000 bows a day? wow. it takes some a year to make one. SMH

From: hunterbob
Date: 19-Aug-21




I just ordered a new subscription about 2 weeks ago I hope to be getting it soon.

From: M60gunner
Date: 19-Aug-21




I wonder if he was showing off the arm guard? Years and years ago I was involved in a photo for a local newspaper. I was told to put my quiver on the wrong side so my arrows showed. My idea of switching sides with the other archer who didn’t have a quiver fell on deaf ears.

From: Krag
Date: 19-Aug-21




Since the hard copy of TBM is no longer sold on magazine racks the cover art appears to be somewhat downplayed. And why shouldn't it be...no one is buying it because of the cover anymore. If it was my responsibility I wouldn't fret over it either. Still great content.

From: Buglmin
Date: 19-Aug-21




Wayne is a part timer moonlighter... Haha!! This comes from someone who knows or cares nothing about someone but because he writes articles for gun magazines and Bugle magazine, the guy thinks he's better and above Wayne. Lol.. Sometimes, the ignorance of some of the guys on here crack me up!! Wonder what ole Philliphunts would say about Judd Cooney or Sam Fedela? Jim Dougherty actually wrote articles for gun magazines, shot compounds, wrote the Gun Digest. Guess he's beneath you to...

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 19-Aug-21




Wayne is a dabbler his Hill article was junk.

From: Backcountry
Date: 20-Aug-21




Phillipshunt— I agree it would have been a much more interesting article if Wayne could have time-traveled back to do a personal interview with Howard Hill. While he was in that mode, maybe he could have gotten quotes and insight from some of HH’s contemporaries.

Without that option, when it comes to writing retrospective articles you’re pretty much limited to secondary information sources, such as older articles and books.

Too bad Wayne’s article disappointed you. Maybe it was some of those big words PhD-types sometimes use that you didn’t understand.

From: SB
Date: 20-Aug-21




What issue are we referencing here? My latest issue is Aug/Sept. and has no such cover!??

From: TradToTheBone
Date: 20-Aug-21




It’s is the Oct/Nov 21 issue.

From: mec lineman
Date: 20-Aug-21




I just don't understand the negativity of some of the folks on this forum. The way Nate Steens bows were talked about from the naysayers was garbage. We are JUST bowhunters who happen to enjoy a simple ,proven style of bow. When I see the current state of affairs this country is headed, being critical of another fellow archer is the least of my worries ??

From: A Tag
Date: 20-Aug-21




Craig, I hope the negativity you see on here sometimes is in good fun. Guys just giving other guys a hard time like buddy’s would. There are Internet commandos that will say stuff on line they would never say face to face to someone. People forget what they write is there forever and we really don’t know who or how many people are really looking at this stuff. I try not to take people very seriously on here.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 20-Aug-21




Backcountry,lol what’s Wayne’s PHD in? It ain’t broadhead identification that’s certain

From: TradToTheBone
Date: 20-Aug-21




Isn’t this supposed to be about a TBM cover photo?

From: grizz
Date: 20-Aug-21




It’s supposed to be but some have to make it about them.

From: Fred Bauder
Date: 20-Aug-21




David If you would read the extraordinary Bob Swinehart in the new Sporting Classics I think you would change your mind about Wayne Van Zwoll.He is a very good writer.

From: Jegs.mi Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 21-Aug-21




There are many men that are good hunter's and a few that a good story teller's. I think we are all good liars when explaining why we missed. I am thankful for anyone who can tell a good hunting story. Thanks for the story's Wayne.

From: A Tag
Date: 21-Aug-21




I’m not subscribe to the magazine anymore could someone take a photo of it and post it. I should subscribe to the magazine again I do remember the days I could not wait to get a copy in the mail. Before I quit my subscription I would barely thumb through the magazine guess I kind of lost interest in it.

From: Backcountry
Date: 21-Aug-21




Nah, it’s not just about the magazine cover— it’s more about how little mistakes get spotted and pointed out by eagle-eyed readers.

I’ve been puzzled before by a few photos and the associated captions, only to see corrections made in the next issue. As far as the broadhead identification mistake, it could have been that editors switched photos, or changed what may have originally said “a Howard Hill-STYLE head (owing to its long, narrow profile)... Because, really, does anyone use actual Howard Hill broadheads anymore? Are they even available anymore?

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 21-Aug-21




I didn’t even notice the broadheads. They are all the same. All work

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 21-Aug-21




Backcountry, lol. A lot of people still hunt with Howard Hill broadheads. Nothing about them has changed they still fly and penetrate better than most broadheads. Howard Hill archery still sells them, you been under a rock?

I guess you ain’t got one of them PHDs either lol.

From: Backcountry
Date: 21-Aug-21




Philllipshunt,

Thanks for setting me straight on Howard Hill broadheads still being available. With the profile they have, I don’t doubt they fly and penetrate pretty well, But they look flimsy to me so I’ve never wanted to try them.

If you like them and use them for your local swamp rabbits and squirrels, and maybe even those little Louisiana whitetails, I’d say that would probably be a good use for them.

Carry on.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 21-Aug-21




Backcountry, they work just fine on Louisiana whitetails, they also worked pretty good on a few thousand animals Howard Hill killed including African game. Bob Swinehart used them all over the country and also Africa. But Ol Wayne never wrote about the Hill broadheads so I’m guessing they are an enigma to you lol.

From: Backcountry
Date: 21-Aug-21




At a hunnerd dollars a dozen, they sure are! No wonder no one uses ‘em anymore!

From: Backcountry
Date: 21-Aug-21




Well, maybe I’ll just give Ol’ Wayne a call and ask him what he knows about HH broadheads. He is about as frugal a person as I’ve ever met, so I doubt he’d ever spring for those cheap-looking heads!

From: kennym
Date: 21-Aug-21




Got mine today,maybe he had to switch to lefty. Is he missing a couple fingers on the right hand?

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 21-Aug-21




Maybe Wayne can spot you the 100$ lol.

From: Grizz
Date: 22-Aug-21




The men who stir the pot on these threads really piss me off. One little thing about a hill broadhead and this happened! No wonder I don't visit like I used to!

From: grizz
Date: 22-Aug-21




Another grizz of the same opinion Grizz.

From: Riverwolf
Date: 22-Aug-21




...issue starts when --A) someone starts a thread simply to fill a stirring pot....--B) someone starts a thread to take a public "cheap shot" (often driven via a vendetta)--C) just someone trying to get some attention . (at any cost)

Some of these threads lure people into a sidebar conversation. One like you might have at any gathering . Meant to be between a few folks , not to shared with everyone. Well, on a public forum ....someone has a mini mike/mic on them...connected to the world . All of us (myself included) are guilty of this to some degree.....So sometimes we should think before posting something that can be hurtful , costly, harmful to someone or something . Words are like arrows ,once loosed you can never take them back..............

From: jk
Date: 22-Aug-21




This thread deserves a mercy killing.

From: trad_bowhunter1965 Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Aug-21

trad_bowhunter1965's embedded Photo



Gents look closer there's a longbow on the right side of the guy putting his boots on and one on his left side mystery solved.

From: Riverwolf
Date: 22-Aug-21

Riverwolf's embedded Photo



..I think they finally noticed that 1965 ;)

From: Tim Finley Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Aug-21




I only see a right handed longbow and a walking staff.

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Aug-21




The other bow is behind the hunter resting on the same log. You only see part of the limb. The first person to respond to this post answered the question.

From: Tim Hoeck
Date: 22-Aug-21




I'm trying to figure out what happened to fletching on some of the arrows

From: Tim Hoeck
Date: 22-Aug-21




One bow is his and other one is the camera man's

From: Backcountry
Date: 22-Aug-21




Making assumptions can bite you. Just ask Inspector Clouseau!

From: David Mitchell
Date: 22-Aug-21




Tim, Fletch cover :o) look closer. And it took me a few minutes to find the other bow on his right.

From: Uncle Lijiah
Date: 22-Aug-21




I remember those old Wayne Van Zwoll magazine articles. I seem to recall he was usually packing one of his Howatt Hunter recurves.

From: aromakr Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 22-Aug-21




That is what all the B.S. is about??? Are any of you guy's over 5 years old ??? You must all be members of the Dr. Spock generation.

Bob

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 22-Aug-21




I remember Dr. Spock. Lol

From: grizz
Date: 22-Aug-21




I’m more the Mr. Spock generation.

From: Codjigger
Date: 23-Aug-21




Beam me up..Scotty.. please. Jigger

From: Red Dogs Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 23-Aug-21




Phillips, if you’re referring to the article about Hill in the Aug/Sept issue of TBM, it was written by TJ Conrad’s. I see no recent articles about Hill by Mr Van Zwoll. Perhaps you should check your self and sources.

From: Backcountry
Date: 23-Aug-21




Some may not like this thread, but there are some good take-aways: check your assumptions, don’t jump to conclusions. And always check yourself and your motives for posting. red

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 23-Aug-21




I didn’t realize there were this many “dabblers” on the forum lol.I wasn’t talking about the TJ Conrad’s article apparently some of you have trouble reading. Y’all love ol Wayne that much I’m sure you have all his articles in a scrapbook under your bed lol, look it up. Lol dabblers are funny.

A bowhunter is a full time bowhunter all the time, not part time not sometimes not until rifle season starts. Wayne’s a dabbler, and so are a lot of you. That’s my opinion just like the article he wrote. And unfortunately for you ever so delicate sensitive people my opinion is the only one that matters lol. Dabblers just make me laugh

From: grizz
Date: 23-Aug-21




So, anyone who hunts anything with anything other than a bow, ever, is not a bowhunter? That’s laughable.

From: Jegs.mi Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 23-Aug-21




Well there you have it. Hat's off to the better man.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 23-Aug-21




Dabblers lol

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 23-Aug-21




A bowhunter hunts with a bow. A dabbler sometimes hunts with a bow, sometimes a gun, crossgun, compound or sometimes gets their feelings hurt at forum posts. They are not however a bowhunter they are someone that bow hunts ...sometimes. Hope this helps

From: Backcountry
Date: 23-Aug-21




Sounds like Frisky has some competition in gas-baggedness!

From: grizz
Date: 23-Aug-21




I guess since guys like Bear and Pearson liked wing shooting with shotguns, they were just dabblers. Ain’t you special.

From: Red Dogs Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 23-Aug-21




Oh my, I’m crushed to find after all these years that I’m not really a bowhunter! Please excuse me! I need a moment!

From: Rik Davis
Date: 23-Aug-21




This thread went to snot as far as I am concerned. There IS another bow on his right side. I assume the right handed bow belongs to the right handed photographer. See Chuck Simpson's comment.

From: Backcountry
Date: 23-Aug-21




Jim Dougherty in his later years wrote the shotgunning column in the back of Hunting magazine, I think it was. He also enjoyed flyfishing local waters in southern Idaho, my stomping grounds.

Phillipshunt is just jerking our chains! He couldn’t begin to match the bowhunting credentials of Jim Dougherty, Fred Bear, Ben Pearson, Don Thomas, Ted Trueblood, Aldo Leopold and many other multi-faceted sportsmen, probably including Frisky Joe.

Hey, but this has been fun!

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that Wayne v. Zwoll sucked at flyfishing—that’s why he hired me to teach it at his Outdoor Women course at Deseret Ranch!

From: Selkirk North Luke
Date: 23-Aug-21




Wow! This thread is a riot! I never knew that when I clicked the shutter on my little Sony camera that it would ever create a stir on the Leatherwall! Hahaha!

I find it humorous that so far only one person noticed that my ol’ pal Jack only has four fingers on his right hand! Yes, my right handed Stalker Coyote is in the foreground, and Jack’s left handed Black Widow is laying on his right side where he laid it. Jack almost drowned in the creek moments after the photo was taken. Here’s the link to the story if anyone’s interested: https://tradbow.com/drowning- jack/

Luke J

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 23-Aug-21




Dabblers are also VERY sensitive!

From: Wapiti - - M. S. Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 24-Aug-21




LOL !

From: Rooster
Date: 24-Aug-21




Gees-O-Pizzo's

From: reddogge
Date: 24-Aug-21




Just what this forum needs is another PITA overbearing purist.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 24-Aug-21




I’m making, an admittedly, unofficial list of all the LW dabblers. If you will please respond to this thread with some kind of “my feelings is hurt” or “crossbows/ gun hunters are bowhunters too” or “ so and so used a shotgun for ducks ,why you being mean” type post so I can get better estimate of your numbers. Please have your response in by 08/24/21 you will not be counted in the “dabblers” tally after then. Thank you

From: A Tag
Date: 25-Aug-21




Count me as a dabbler:-))))) I have sinned, I have harvested animals with a high- powered rifle. Like Quigley with pistols, I don’t have much use for one but I do know how to use one. If I still had feelings they would be hurt:-))))

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 25-Aug-21




Sorry Atag you missed the deadline for the count. Don’t sweat it we will do another count later. Appreciate all the responses and cooperation

From: A Tag
Date: 25-Aug-21




Dang it, I might have to contact my attorney on this one because you didn’t specify what time zone you were going off of. It was yesterday when I posted at least out west:-)) I’m sure I can make the cut next time.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 25-Aug-21




Well after considering the time zone issue we have added you to the dabbler list total, ATag. It was an oversight made in the front office, we have rectified the issue and dealt with the person responsible.

From: reddogge
Date: 25-Aug-21




Phillipshunt is a bowhunter, what do you think about that?

He wears his bowhunter raincoat, he wears his bowhunter hat.

He wears his bowhunter raincoat, he wears his bowhunter shoes

and every Sunday morning he reads the bowhunter news.

Credit; The Smothers Brothers

From: MikeT
Date: 25-Aug-21




This is a tough crowd :)At one time I bowhunted during gun season, now I load my own rounds for the 3030, put me on the shame list

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 25-Aug-21




I don’t recall anyone shaming anyone or saying being a dabbler was not a popular pass time. I’ve never in my life seen a bunch of what I assumed was grown men get so emotional about a single comment. To me there is a difference between a bowhunter and someone that sometimes hunts with a bow. Really no reason to cry or feel personally offended. Look how many of you had no response to the thread no comment about anything posted until the dabbler comment. Now you have been compelled to state why you are a dabbler and that your upset about being called a dabbler? I don’t get it.

From: Liquid Amber Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 16-Sep-21




The article in question by Wayne van Zwoll was published in the June/July Issue of TBM, page 41.

The article by TJ was a chapter from his book.

Both are full of inaccuracies as well as numerous other articles published on Hill.

Folks keep using the same old "inaccurate" sources, no research.

It's an easy path. Researching takes time. Most of us are not willing to put in the hours.

I know. I'm still embarrassed about some of the early stuff I wrote. No more.

From: Backcountry
Date: 16-Sep-21




LiquidAm, how about some examples of the “inaccuracies” you speak of? What are your sources on these? I agree researching takes time and without some way to verify, information may be anecdotal. Is yours?

From: Liquid Amber Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 16-Sep-21

Liquid Amber's embedded Photo



Wayne van Zwolle's article:

Hill didn't play semi-pro ball - no source; his timeline doesn't support it; he was too busy working. He was gainfully employed in Alabama and Miami during the 10 years he was supposed to be playing ball. His movement is traced thoroughly in newspaper articles.

Hill didn't win any National Flight Tournament in 1925 - He moved to Miami that year and was just getting into archery. "History of the National Archery Association" by Robert Rhode doesn't support it. He won one in 1925. Thats all.

The first of seven wins in a row - "History of the National Archery Association" by Robert Rhode doesn't support it.

Claims Hill went on Moose hunt to Canada in 1925 - This hunt actually occurred in 1938 and is Chapter 20 [North of "53"] in "Hunting the Hard Way." He should have read the book.

Hill didn't shoot that buffalo from a horse with his bow in "Wild Adventure," According to Ned Frost who filmed it. Noted in "Tracks, Trails and Tales," "The Legacy of Ned Frost". Frost stated Hill was unable to shoot a buffalo from horseback, he shot it from the ground, mounted and shot an arrow, then rode up to the buffalo and jumped off. Look at the film, it shows the event in pieces.

Most of the article after Hill moved to California [1932 or so] is "basically" true from that a point forward, but embellished and puffed up so to make Hill sound super human. Hill was the real deal and didn't need any help from Zwoll. It made me winch reading some of the stuff.

In TJ's article "Howard Hill-The World's Greatest Archer," the inaccuracies from Zwolle's article apply here as well. Both depended heavily on Craig Ekin's "Howard Hill, The Man and the Legend," so both copied the same mistakes.

Hill graduated from Auburn[today's name] around 1922 and married Libby. They settled in Sylacauga, Alabama where he got a job working in the machine shops of the Avondale Mills. In 1925 they moved to Miami where he worked for Glenn Curtiss[not Hughes Tool Company] in his machine shops and later as a real estate salesman. He wasn't the golf pro at the Opa Locka Golf Course, he couldn't work two jobs. Beginning in 1927 he became the Archery Pro.

He didn't win a flight Tournament in 1925 and the seven after, he won his only one in 1928.

Again, Hill didn't go hunting in Canada and kill his first deer and moose. This was the 1938 hunt from Hill's book. He killed a young bull for the outfitter's winter meat supply.

Hill killed his first deer in 1930 in Canada.

Hill didn't shoot the buffalo from horseback. As noted in Ned Frost's book.

I'm not accusing Zwoll or TJ of anything sinister. They both much better writers than I. They relied on another's work instead of doing the research and they wrote bad press . And it's obvious Ekins book was the source of much of their miss-information.

Fact Definition:

1. A thing that is known or proved to be true.

2. Information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.

Facts:

Hill born in 1899 Hill attended "Auburn" and graduated about 1922 Hill married Libby in 1922 Hill moved to Miami in 1925 Hill became archery pro at Opa locka in 1927 Hill killed his first deer in Canada in 1930 Hill and Frost filmed "Wild Adventure" im 1933

Anecdotal:

Hill played semi-pro baseball 7 or 10 years. Hill went on hunting trip to Canada in 1925 for deer and moose Hill made his first "real" bow in 1926. Hill worked for Hughes Tool Company Hill shot buffalo from horseback with longbow. Hill won 7 flight tournaments in a row Lots of Hill stuff anecdotal

What are my sources:

Written accounts from folks or relatives who knew Hill Magazine articles Newspaper articles Letters Books

Photo of the 3.5 inch binder with Hill's stuff, all in chronological order. Many pages of type written material.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 16-Sep-21




Thanks Liquid Amber for finding the article and month. I’m working out of town right now. I have every issue of TBM but not with me I couldn’t remember the exact issue of the piss poor Hill article Wayne wrote. And sometimes I don’t have the motivation to actually prove a point with these people on the forum. You can show them absolute proof and they will forget the original question and then get on something else lol. Just like ol backcountry. First they saying Wayne didn’t write a Hill article for TBM. Now they want you to tell them what’s wrong with the Hill article Wayne wrote for TBM lol, priceless. It’s about like teaching first graders the questions never end and you fell like they ain't understanding anyway. Lol

From: Backcountry
Date: 17-Sep-21




Phillipshunt, you’re probably about the last person on Leatherwall to be complaining about first graders! Most of them could teach you a lot about spelling and grammar. LoL, indeed.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 17-Sep-21




Well there is no edit function on the LW. And typing on a phone your gonna have spelling issues and auto correct gets you sometimes. We don’t all have those little baby hands like you that makes phone typing easy lol. Typical response though on your part. You no longer want to defend ol Wayne’s pos article your on to something else. Complete dabbler

From: Backcountry
Date: 17-Sep-21




Cliff (Liquid Amber)— thanks for taking time to follow up and answer my questions. That adds to your credibility.

I’m no Hill scholar and apparently Wayne and TJ aren’t, either. Maybe someone should write an article or book called “Howard Hill—the Legend and the Myth.” No, wait— Frisky wouldn’t like that!

From: vikingbear
Date: 17-Sep-21




This article points to bigger problem. That is T.J. Conrad stepping down as editor of Tradtional Bowhunter. I hope this is not an example of what we may come to see from the magazine. This article was obviously a filler piece that was poorly done. Those of you who remember when M.R. James stepped down as editor of Bowhunter Magazine, the magazine took a slow decline into becoming Junk. I am a lifetime subscriber of Traditional Bowhunter .I have always thought the writing to be first class writing. I expect that to continue into the future. If not, I will have to reevaluate my subscription. Sorry if this sounds harsh but the truth needs to be spoken.

From: fdp
Date: 17-Sep-21




I canceled my subscription to TBM years ago.

From: Buckdancer
Date: 17-Sep-21




I did not re-subscribeTo traditional bow hunter magazine is that article really turned me off and yes the magazine is turning into garbage

From: Krag
Date: 17-Sep-21




T J Conrads did not step down as editor of TBM it was co-editor Don Thomas. His replacement has been associated with the magazine for quite a while so they may have a good idea of his credentials.

TBM is still the best out there. It must be quite a challenge to continue an ehtity at the same level for 30 plus years. Look at forums - best days for most are in the archives. Good writers and posters get old, retire, die, get tired of the nonsense, whatever.

From: cut it out
Date: 17-Sep-21




Why do they not sell hard copy’s anymore in stores? I been wondering why I haven’t been able to find any!!!

From: grizz
Date: 17-Sep-21




So TBM is garbage? And you think this thread is not?

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 17-Sep-21




I like how the thread went from. Wayne never wrote an article for TBM about Hill to yes Wayne’s article he wrote about Hill in TBM was garbage but.... lol. And ol Grizz still upset about it but still coming back hurt feelings and all.

So for the Wayne defenders how is it he got so many facts twisted how come his article is a copy and past of other poorly written articles about the same subject? Just a few questions.

Dabblers lol

From: grizz
Date: 17-Sep-21




My feelings aren’t hurt, I just don’t like self absorbed, narcissistic jackasses.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 18-Sep-21




I hear you grizz I feel the same alway about dabblers lol

From: Riverwolf
Date: 18-Sep-21




I believe TJ also took his partials from past print for any of his magazine articles . Could be wrong....but , I believe they all add where they got the info and give props......Unless some of you gents where actually at the filming/hunting/staged film events , it's ALL open for "debate" . Have fun proving any of it .

We all (well , most level headed folk) understand Howard -Bear- others all wrote books-made films---EDITED. Fabricated , pieced together fact and fabrication to tell a story . He said-she said stories are just that....Stories. Pick your page and believe.;^)

Attempting to drag a person/writer / business down like some of you are is Lowdown in my book.

Then we ask "why"..........Usually the answers aren't that hard to find......Good day gentlemen.........

From: grizz
Date: 18-Sep-21




Riverwolf X2

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 18-Sep-21




Phillipshunt X10

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 18-Sep-21




A lot of the things posted by liquid amber, are not hard to prove. The logic behind that post by river wolf would allow you to just make up stories about anything because maybe they are true? Lol dabblers

From: Randog
Date: 18-Sep-21




This will keep me chuckling all day, thanks y'all.

From: Altitude Sickness
Date: 18-Sep-21




I’ll add that on many of the Howard Hill threads and Fred Bear threads. Most of course is regurgitation of stories that have been told over and over. Both gentlemen earned their positions to have people wanting to tell those stories in the first place. No one will be telling exaggerated stories of me in 100 years.

But for example you hear tales of HH underwater bow hunting. Then you see the video and it has creative edits. Going from ocean shots to the shark in a small tank swimming lazily. Most likely tranquilized. Then the tails grow to HH killing sharks underwater with his bow.

Again, he was in that position because he was an amazing Archer. But tails grow taller on down the line. And writers back then were expected to glorify and stretch the stories a little.

From: Seneca_Archer
Date: 18-Sep-21




Can I disown this thread?

From: hunterbob
Date: 18-Sep-21




I was disappointed when I received my new subscription. I always turned to G Fred Asbells article and there was none.

From: Matt B
Date: 20-Sep-21




Phillipshunt, like you said, I'm not very good at research. I have not been able to locate any of your published articles. Please give us references so we can read your articles and see how a good article should be written.

From: grizz
Date: 20-Sep-21




Excellent!

From: Harleywriter
Date: 20-Sep-21




Reddog, I had to howl at the Refrigerator Repairman parody. I also had to howl at some of the observations. Lotsa smart fellers on here.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 21-Sep-21




Matt B I have no doubt you aren’t good at research. But apparently your not very bright either. This is your first post on this thread so when did I say you were bad at research? Until you asked the question I didn’t even know you existed lol.

Oh..wait....you read over the thread, got your feelings hurt, then decided to ask a rhetorical question so you could feel included.Got it. My answer is. I don’t need to write any articles to know ol Wayne copy and pasted a bunch of garbage in the article. Same as I don’t need to be a chef to know when food tastes bad, or be a special ed teacher to recognize your malfunction lol.

From: Backcountry
Date: 21-Sep-21




Sounds like Leatherwall has an unofficial but self-appointed and self-absorbed Howard Hill expert... or maybe he’s just a HowardHillophile.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 21-Sep-21




Just give up backcountry. You feebly tried to come to Ol Wayne’s rescue. Got schooled by Liquid Ambers post and your comebacks are weak. I get it your in love with Wayne. But what I said stands his TBM Hill article was a plagiarized copy and pasted turd. I still can’t stop laughing at the part where some of you said he didn’t right an article for TBM lol. And now your like yeah he did write and article for TBM but.....lol. Dabblers are funny to me

From: Backcountry
Date: 21-Sep-21




“right an article,” you said. Phillipshunt, you are a piece of work.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 22-Sep-21




backcountry, you love Wayne lol

From: two4hooking
Date: 22-Sep-21




Liquid Amber knows his stuff! He has done the research and should be writing some pieces for us all to enjoy as I always enjoy his factual posts. It would be great if he wrote a letter to the editor pointing out the inaccuracies in his post above. Set the record straight. Try to make the magazine better instead of discounting the whole deal. TBM is one of the few national rags that let the average Joe write articles. I think this is good, but gets slippery when historical pieces are involved. Those with the knowledge and experience are better at writing those.

From: Jegs.mi Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 22-Sep-21




I don't know about you all but I am getting ready to dabble in some deer hunting..... think I'll brush up on some tips from Wayne....... maybe try some Howard Hill techniques.

From: Riverwolf
Date: 22-Sep-21




...From what I have gathered from this public lashing about a couple articles. I see nothing that couldn't have been handled via email. What I read was parts of articles or references to such . Always giving reference to whom wrote the piece. NO ON was saying summiting falseness is expectable . No one except a certain Leather Wall blowhard . Trying once again to put falseness to someone he differs from .

Yes two4, they do let a lot of everyday folk write stories . Why not. A story is just that. A great reflection of facts/happenings . Some have and will always ....embellish. Just like those old Hill movies of shark being dragged along boat side in an attempt to look like the shark was attacking someone before he arrowed it . Entertaining -yes. Misleading and or embellished upon =I think so.

So with multiple articles, references , about happenings so long ago ..... Like said earlier....pick your page and believe ;^))

Same with Fred , and others. They all embellished Edited, or added to. That in NO WAY is me saying I agree and except FALSENESS !

I do not. But someone printing what one person wrote Ooo so many yrs ago , and giving props on it isn't a mistake on the article. It is on the original author . Is it not ? If they actually got the facts mixed up. Call them out on it via an email.

To me it all comes across as a thread of Cheap shots at a couple people and articles .

I myself enjoy the stories written by everyday hunters . Anyone can tell a story. Everyone has a story .Yes ,technical aspects of history should be handled by those with vast knowledge of the subject , but one has to admit that certain aspects of these talks are and always will be in a gray area of truth . Perhaps a honorable mention to the several sides of a story and let the reader try and pan out the truth when in those gray areas of history......

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 22-Sep-21




The thread was originally about the cover photo not a magazine article. Someone mentioned the photo of some broadheads mislabeled and I made the comment that the writer usually writes for the gun magazines and just recently started writing for TBM and probably doesn’t know the difference in the broadheads because he is a part time bowhunter moonlighting.

That’s when the crybaby’s came out from under their protective blankets to moan about Wayne Van Zwoll and how much they love him as a writer. Wayne is not an average Joe writer, he’s supposed to be a professional. If you read the article it is like I said a copy and pasted poorly written one with obviously zero research. First one of the crybaby’s said Wayne didn’t write a Hill article. Couple more whiners jumped in to agree. Liquid Amber posted the month and issue of the article written by the crybaby’s hero. Then after being proven wrong about the articles existence the over sensitive wanted proof of mistakes in the article. Liquid Amber took the time to list the discrepancies.

There was a brief section of the thread where several people felt compelled to tell us they hunt with guns, compounds crossbows etc. after I said Wayne was a part time dabbler at bowhunting lol. And there is the usual one or two that just jump in the thread with some comment that makes zero sense because they haven’t even read the thread or know what the subject is, they just want to be included.

And that’s pretty much the recap of this thread that was originally about a photo and was drug off course by overly sensitive whiners that must not have a subscription to TBM. It had nothing to do with average Joe writers or downing TBM. But I would hope they keep a closer eye on Ol Wayne the dabblers next article.

From: Riverwolf
Date: 22-Sep-21




I believe it was YOU David that started the derailing on this thread. Along with many many other threads .....As far as giving your overture / perspective ....Well, I believe everyone can do that for themselves .......Be it magazine articles , books, movies , music. We need not someone to stand on a soapbox and tell us how it is.....

Have an issue with writer's, or what they have written. Take it up with them on a personal level via email, letter, or in person.

Public forums aren't the place for it .......Good day.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 22-Sep-21




Your confused again Ralph. The broadheads were mislabeled in the article. Wayne did copy and paste a bunch of garbage in his Hill article. You and the crybaby gang tried to come to Wayne’s defense, and failed. Those are the facts lol.

And I think this is the perfect place to bring it up. I don’t know Wayne personally and being as he’s a bow dabbler I don’t care to. Ol backcountry used to live with the guy....maybe still does. He’d probably be the best way to let Wayne know his Hill article was a turd, saves me the trouble of trying to find his email.

From: Backcountry
Date: 22-Sep-21




Phillipshunt, now that you’ve shown everyone on Leatherwall how smart you are and the singular great bowhunter among us dabblers, why don’t you “right” a letter to the editor of TBM about your disappointment with the Howard Hill article?

That way you can share your genius and demonstrate your superiority to virtually the whole traditional archery world.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 23-Sep-21




Backcountry, why don’t you find something else to cry about? Take the crybaby gang with you. I’m sure y’all can find another reason to have hurt feelings. This one here has about dried up. You’ve been proven wrong, not much else to say.





If you have already registered, please

sign in now

For new registrations

Click Here




Visit Bowsite.com A Traditional Archery Community Become a Sponsor
Stickbow.com © 2003. By using this site you agree to our Terms and Conditions and our Privacy Policy