Positive tiller - Even Tiller - Split Finger - Three under - Riser Centered - Riser Offset towards bottom limb? These are characteristics in design , and shooting style that are , to me anyway , being proven to be less important for success but more of an individual concept of what is right or wrong in bow design and a way to pull a bowstring back and letting the arrow fly.

I realize this could open up Pandora’s box on ideas and opinions but I will start with one example. I used to be convinced that the best design for a longbow (and it may still be) was to have the riser lowered from the actual center of the bow. Most bows have the grip posistioned 1 1/4” above and 2 3/4” below center with the fade-outs being of equal length above and below the hand. That in turn makes the bottom limb shorter and the top limb longer.

That design also automatically makes the bottom limb stronger and more resistant to bend than the top.

That’s pretty basic information if you’re a bowyer but one basic and very good question would be how does this relate to being a good design and how does this make this a better bow to shoot?

I have been building selfbows for many years and this design is basically what I use but I also know that you will also expect more string follow (being good or bad) on the bottom limb than the top. Most any old , or even relatively new selfbow that has been shot for a time will show this extra string follow in the bottom limb. The reason for this is due to the relationship of the bowhand posistion and the drawing position on the bowstring ( even shooting three under ) puts the bottom limb under more stress.

I recently aquired a longbow from this site made by “Two Tracks”. After looking over the pictures the gentleman sent me of the bow I could tell there was something different about how it appeared in the strung position. I found out through conversation that he was the original owner and shot three under. It not only had a centered riser but also had near even tiller. Being a split finger shooter I normally would have shyed away from a bow like this but it was a real looker and the limbs were bending perfectly and in an arc that I strive to produce in my own bows.

To make this story shorter I will end with this. This is now one of my favorite bows that I actually shoot. And to my surprise the bow tunes in with a much lower nocking point than I expected. I have regularly checked the tiller while shooting it and it moves from just under 1/16” positive tiller to even and settles there.

This is only one example of where I have been completely surprised. It only goes to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat and be happy. Don G. ( Ol Sager )

It's all about what works for you.

A good number (but not most) of bowyers center the riser on the bow. I could never tell any difference in the shootability between those constructed that way and those with a shorter lower limb. Though builders and many shooters have their preferences, a good number of shooters have no idea where the riser is positioned on their bow or how it's tillered.

I don't worry too much about tiller because one can change the dynamic tiller quite easily with nock height. The standard 1/8-3/16-inch greater distance between the string and fade out of the top limb isn't much of a difference. How folks grip the bow and the string can affect the dynamic tiller more.

Amen. Positive tiller & or short bottom limb only makes a bow noisy & requires a high nocking point for my style of shooting. 3 under. >>>>-----> Ken

I have and have shot older bows that are 3/4" positive that shoot just fine. Seems like it was fairly common in the 1950's. I believe it is called a chested or breasted tiller. Both my 1955 Bear Polar and 1974 Browning Wasp are tillered this way.

Yeah - remember what the old Japanese longbows looked like?

I'll address some of the things mentioned above.

"That design also automatically makes the bottom limb stronger and more resistant to bend than the top."

Nah. Only if it's not accounted for in design and layup, or not adjusted for while tillering/adjusting relative limb strength. Asymmetrical bows can readily be made with equal strength limbs(equal relative to the archer's holds)... whether glass bows, selfbows, or others.

"...how does this(asymmetry) relate to being a good design and how does this make this a better bow to shoot?"

The asymmetrical design puts bow center(the bow's static fulcrum), the string hand fulcrum, and the dynamic fulcrum all in closer proximity to one another... not only at full draw, but throughout the entire drawing sequence. It does this for both split finger and 3 under shooters. This makes for a bow that does not have at all, or has considerably less of, a fulcrum under the bow hand that slides or moves as it's drawn. Some folks wouldn't recognize this, they're so used to it. But I much prefer an asymmetrical bow's balance and stability during the draw and shot, and have found such bows easier to tune, softer shooting, and better balanced to carry as well. When carried at my side, symmetrical bows always feel like they're trying to fall out of my hand. That alone is unacceptable to me. Every bow I make is asymmetrical, and I don't find them any more difficult to make... in fact, it makes some aspects of crafting and tuning them easier.

Selfbows showing more string follow in the bottom limb can be due to a combination of factors. In my opinion it can have more to do with the bottom limb being tillered too strong relative to the archer, and then the bow grip is heeled as a result, and the bottom limb takes set over time because of it. It's kinda like the wood is trying to show us how it should have been tillered to begin with. If asymmetrical selfbows are designed appropriately and dynamically balanced, the limbs are in harmony strengthwise and the tiller holds very well. It such a bow takes any set, its distributed evenly between the limbs.

The bow you mentioned from "Two Tracks" doesn't surprise me at all. After balancing them relative to my holds, many of my bows have even tiller, or are slightly negative, and every one with a predetermined nock point which places the arrow 1/8" high on the nock end... or less. They're balanced in strength and nock points don't need moved. If I had to move a nock point to get better arrow flight, I'd look real hard for what I did wrong during construction.

When a nock point is moved higher to cope with limb strength disparity, it isn't done without consequences. The fulcrums are further separated, which increases the sliding fulcrum phenomenon, adversely affecting the bow's feel, shooting and tuning characteristics. Are the adverse effects noticeable, or minor? Depends on who you ask.

For me, a level arrow and a balanced dynamic draw with fulcrums in close proximity makes for one sweet bow, imo. Asymmetry for me.

Jeff - do you use a horizontal bow tiller system? I do - but this same experiment can be done on a vertical one also. Mine is set up with a pully and rope system that allows me to backup away from the bow to any distance I want while observing how the limbs are bending at various draw lengths. I have been using this system for many years and for selfbows it is extremely helpful.

If you do use a system like this you might want to set up this experiment. Let’s assume we are doing this with a bow that has the riser centered with respect to the length of the bow and the fade-out lengths above and below the grip are also equal. This bow also has even tiller. When the center of the grip is centered on the peg and the rope hook is centered directly below that point on the bowstring the bow riser remains still and level no matter how far you pull.

Now if you move the bow on the peg as close as you safely can towards the shelf and again the rope hook directly underneath you now have made the working center of the bow move towards the top limb. In esscense you now have a bow with a shorter top limb than the bottom.

Now when you pull the string back you will notice that the riser tends to rock downwards on the shelf side and upwards on the bottom limb side.

What I call “ normal “ tillered bows have the center of the bow located with the top of the grip 1 1/4” above the center of the grip and 2 3/4 “ below and would have around 1/8” positive tiller. The basic reasoning for this positive tiller is the bottom limb is under more stress due to the way the shooter’s bowhand is below the arrow and the drawing hand is above. That angle naturally puts more force on the bottom limb. Which also makes it bend more than the top limb.

Now we can enter the debatable part. And that is what would be the correct amount to make this positive tiller? If you really look and study pictures of people at full draw, especially if they are pulling with the “ standard “ medeteranian style of hold/release you will probably notice the bottom limb appears to have more arc than the top. Now if that same bottom limb (for good or bad) was made maybe to be strong enough then the arc would be the same as the top limb. Many of the old pictures of Howard Hill will show what I’m trying to explain.

I once tillered a longbow like this ; I always kept the center of the grip directly over the peg and would hook the rope on the bowstring where the arrow be nocked. When the bow is first drawn everything looks so crazy and out of balance it’s almost scary. The top limb is way down from level and the bottom way up. But I stuck with my plan and carefully kept removing material from the belly side of the top limb until finally at full draw the riser section of the bow was sitting as level as I could possibly perceive.

I did this a long time ago and I remember that the bow ended up with quite a bit more positive tiller than usual. But , at least in my opinion, it shot just fine. And I also remember it was noticeably easier on my ring finger while shooting. I can’t remember what happened with this bow but I should have kept it.

This morning I took several pictures and videos for you of both the Two Tracks and one my Hill bows that has a full 5/32” positive tiller. They basically show what the bows look like at about 3/4 draw and at full draw when the grip is centered on the peg and the bowstring is drawn from where the arrow would be nocked. Unfortunately the lighting was not very good and will probably have to do them all over. But if there are any of them decent enough I will send them to you. Don G.

Jeff thanks for all the information. That kind of explains why some bows tend to work for us and others don't. Why some are liked & disliked. I would love to try different bows & have you explain to me the differences I was feeling but not understanding. It seems like most bows with very much positive tiller require a high nocking point & or noisy. I never understood why but I don't like the looks of my arrows running downhill. I change the tiller on my keepers to even. Never tried going negative that might even be better.

Would you name any bows models or brands that are balanced more like you would build one.I would love to experience what you are talking about. >>>----> Ken

Olsager.... many wood bow makers build bows with out shelves, and have there own ideas as to how a bow should be made, or the only way a bow should be made.There is a guy that posts on here at times that makes mostly Osage bows for flight shooting, and some of his bows have broken records in the past. He tillers the bow from the middle with the same length limbs, and cuts the shelf 1 and 1/4 above the center, and adjusts the nock accordingly, so there is more than one way to make a sweet shooting bow. His way has been time tested, and proven. Other ways may work, but I build mine his way. Just another of life's choices.

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