I asked this question about 20 years ago on this forum. Why is one better than the other? This is (IMO) the best answer to my question. (along with a comment from when I brought this post back up a few years ago)

You got my curiosity up so I did a search. It just so happens I started the thread the vet answered. The thread was titled "wound question" Here is a vets reply on that thread. It answered a bunch for me.

*******

"O.K. Dan here ya go. What you have been waiting for. A sharp instrument causes a nice clean and neat wound.From the surgical aspect, these heal much better than say,tears or ripped tissue. Even on non fatal hit deer, a sharp clean cut heals better cause there is less tissue trauma, and the wound will close back much the same way that it was before the cut. This is due to the bodies response to fill any "dead space" with fluid. The mammalian body, as you put it, hates dead space and will fill it to facilitate healing.

Now, there is more bleeding with a sharp cut, due to less trauma. Confused? Let me explain. When vessels are torn or ripped, which would be the case with a dull, or jagged, bh, the smooth muscle fibers that line the vessels will contract making the open end smaller, and basically closing off the blood vessel. A vessel who's integrity has been compromised with a sharp instrument, will not react the same way, its lumen will remain open and continue to bleed longer. Of course all that goes out the window when you talk about the great vessels of the body, i.e. aorta, cranial and caudal venacavas, portal vessels, and femoral arteries. once these open wide, it's nighty nite.

I hope you are totally confused now, and that i have been of no help. hehe!! hope this helps, seriously."

Dr. Bentshaft(vet)

Yep, that is what we were taught in EMT school. I came across a biker that had been hit by another biker on a bad mountain curve. He had lost his left leg near the knee joint. But because the would was such a rip and tear, he did not bleed out, in fact it was hardly bleeding at all. The artery had drawn back up inside and pretty much closed off.

On the other hand, I lost a friend and fellow worker (biker) that had been hit by a car, taking his leg off as well but he bled out very quickly. His was a clean cut off.

I have seen deer that were completely healed over a week or so later after a high hit with a sharp broadhead.

Makes sense clean cut in muscle tissue containing small veins and capillaries will seep a long time, cut a main artery or vein in half with a dull hoe and well it’s like cutting a pressurized hose in half it’s gonna loose it all quick !

So is this an argument for single bevel then? That the S shape cut contribute to opening staying well OPEN?

From what I understand, its not just the issue of penetration, it is also the issue of dull broadheads not cutting but simply pushing veins on contact instead of cutting them. Similar to using the right gauge of needles when sewing. You don't want the needles to be too sharp that it cut the material, you want it to simply push the fabric to the side as much as possible.

I don't think single vs double bevel is an issue. A single bevel is not going to "tear" an opening any more than a double bevel and vice/vs.

The single bevel versus double and corresponding S wound is based on a flat bone hit like a scapula.

I understand about the razor cut, but I am not entirely convinced that a broadhead has to be honed to a razor edge. Granted I have had very quick kills with a 3 bladed razorblade type broadhead. But I am not so sure that those kills weren't more a result of near perfect shot placement, which they were.

However, back 30 years ago, everything I remember reading in the trad magazines of the day, promoted a 2 blade broadhead, sharpened with just a file, and that is what I used. However, I was using the old Bear Razorheads without the bleeder blade installed. The Bear Razorheads were easy to sharpen with a file, and I found them to kill very quickly and leave great blood trails, but once again shot placement was very good.

Now days, I do hone my heads, but that's mainly because some of the heads now days, seem a lot harder to sharpen with just a file. But I am not totally convinced they are any better.

My 2 cents, years ago I cut two fingers off with a table saw. Definitely a saw cut not a razor cut! As the doctor evaluated my condition and because I was a NON smoker they would try to save them. Due to hand placement the saw blade cleanly cut my index finger off mid bone. However my middle finger was cut at knuckle joint which shattered the joint as well as the bone around it. Surgeon believed he could save the index finger but didn’t think he could save the middle finger but would try. Ironically after a 10 1/2 hour surgery and trying twice to establish circulation in the index finger (clean cut) I lost that finger but for whatever reason he save the middle finger with a metal plate and screws and later added cadaver bone to fill the space where my knuckle used to be. Take that for what that’s worth. Personally I use shaving sharp smooth blades and shot placement is far more important, but despite our best efforts arrows don’t always land where we want so on marginal hits will one type of edge over the other make difference in not sure. I do think that the type or hardness determines what kind of edge it can take. Softer steel might be razor sharp going but quickly dull hitting resistance in which case a fine file edge may be more durable.

I don't see the response as contradictory. While the healing aspect is something we may hope occurs on non-lethal hits where it facilitates the animal's recovery, the main issue bowhunters deal with in tracking is what puts the most blood on the ground allowing us to recover the animal. the former is merely the "second-best outcome" for the hunter.

I like a jagged edge so it rips and tears.

The more trauma there is to a wound/wound channel, the faster the blood coagulates.

Does it really matter? Not really to the end result if it's a good shot, but it can, and often does diminish blood trails. Those are facts.

I prefer good smooth razor sharp edges, but I do have a few serrated in my quiver for testing for a friend.

I have zero doubt in getting the job done with either.

Rick

Interesting experiment one of my favorite profs told me about around 40 years ago….

If you relieve a salamander of a limb by way of something pretty dull, like a pair of pliers (or the jaws of a bass), it’ll grow back. If you use something really sharp, it won’t. Same as clotting factor is released by the crushing, the clots are associated with some factors which stimulate the re-growth. I’m sure there are good docs still figuring that out to help people with situations like Todd’s….

But it makes sense that a jagged wound would have a lot of compromised tissue which would be likely to die off, which tends to cause an infection…. A clean wound — once it stops bleeding — just leaves a much smaller space to fill…

And it all makes sense, because natural wounds tend to be messy. “Sharp” teeth and claws or more blunt instruments like hooves, antlers, tree staubs and the like are really quite dull compared to a reasonably sharp blade, whether steel or stone.

Razor sharp?,….I suppose I get some that sharp but I don’t find it necessary. I use single bevels so their thinner edge is noticeably sharper to my finger, does it matter?….meh, probably not much but while I can’t prove it definitively, I think I get shorter trails but it’s hardly measurable I expect.

Shoot stuff in the right spot with something relatively sharp and its lights out provided penetration was adequate.

I guess if you have the tracking skills of Ishi your broadheads can be butter knife sharp. But for most of us, myself included, the more red on the ground, the easier my job of recovery, and that means a hair splitting head for me.

I think a lot of folks go out with sub-par sharpened heads because that is the best they can do, not stepping on anyones toes, but some folks just can't get the hang of sharpening steel up.

Good Shooting->->->->Craig

If dull jagged tears heal faster better wouldn’t a surgeon use a screw driver ?

i usually skip the debate.....and just make mine as sharp as i possibly can.

I like to make mine as sharp as I can. Doesn’t take long and I actually enjoy sharpening.

I like to make mine as sharp as I can. Doesn’t take long and I actually enjoy sharpening.

Sorry for the double

[[[ "If dull jagged tears heal faster better wouldn’t a surgeon use a screw driver ?" ]]]

No.

A clean incision/cut leaves clean sides/ends to work.

But, because of the lack of tissue trauma those incisions need help to heal via stitching.

That stitching (depending on how good the surgeon is) leads to accurate, fast, and clean healing without obstruction to tissue, or organs function.

Without the stitching the patient is in big trouble. :-)

Rick

I like a serrated edge, with serrations stropped straight with a leather. Makes a clean cut and still doesn't let anything pass without cutting it. Has done a great job for me the last 50 years anyway. Bear Razor heads (all of them), Zwickeys, and Ace standards. Sharp and in the right place right?

I shoot two blades that I sharpen with a file. So far, nothing I’ve shot with them has been immune. I can understand all the “ neat cut, rough cut” arguments, but is it really applicable here? Our ancestors shot rocks at animals. Process that thought for a second……. ROCKS.

For the sharpening challenged, they always have sharpeners like the smith 2 sided v sharpeners.. if they still can't get the heads sharp enough, maybe stick to target archery, or gun hunting..

LOL Sawtooth. Too damn funny. I would worry about a good place to hunt first.

Sawtooth said "I shoot two blades that I sharpen with a file. So far, nothing I’ve shot with them has been immune. I can understand all the “ neat cut, rough cut” arguments, but is it really applicable here? Our ancestors shot rocks at animals. Process that thought for a second……. ROCKS."

Not just any old rock though. Certain types of very hard rock (like flint) that they invested a bunch of time and effort to sharpen (knap).

"If dull jagged tears heal faster better wouldn’t a surgeon use a screw driver ?"

It's not that they heal faster, it's that they clot faster. Or coagulate faster. The rougher and and more ragged the wound the faster it will clot at the site of the wound and therefore stop the loss of blood. It's nature's way of trying to prevent blood loss. OTOH, the sharper the cutting instrument the less the clotting is set off and the more freely the blood is lost which is our goal when we put the arrow into the vital organs or a major blood vessel.

Ashly, a veterinarian, explains it here; https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d0 443b188b6c900011e0ccc/t/5d369ce20611bf0001 1808c4/1563860195272/2003_Clotting+Cascade +Article.pdf

Which edge is more durable?

Interesting arguments on both sides. Here's my observation as to broadheads sharpness. A razor edge is a little more fragile than a file sharpened head and will require more touch up during season. Not that it matters much because I think most of us touch up our heads often. As far as the shot goes to me it's similar to the single bevel theory. Everyone can site the theory but nobody can give an account of when it made it bad shot good . Lungs or heart it's going down fast. Sawtooth original x2

Shot placement trumps BH sharpness. I get mine as sharp as I can.

"Everyone can site the theory but nobody can give an account of when it made it bad shot good "

I guess a ‘bad shot’ would have to be defined. Kingwouldbe had some pretty good examples of dead critters that might have been perceived as a ‘bad’ shot.

I have been asking for years online and in person for an account of a single bevel saving the day and haven't heard one yet. I don't think they are bad I just don't think they are any different. I will look up Kingwouldbe and see what he has to say. Thanks for the tip.

Much like Sawtooth I don't think it matters much. A well hit deer will die.

I like to use dull broadheads, field tips, or even blunts. It is in keeping with my "hunting the hard way" ethos.

LOL. Yea then you have an excuse for not finding your deer.

Ricky due to your stated ethos I have a strong appreciation for your pathos ;)

Also I went back as far as 2015 looking at some of Kingwouldbes posting activities. So far from what I've seen he was shooting a 63# highbrid longbow with extreme foc 300-400 grains upfront. It's a shame some of the older pictures are gone but with that set up at short range you are breaking some bones. I'm still digging so maybe I will find it.

Jed...

Not my logos?

:)

No logos I just stepped on some of those this morning.

I too like to use a file to make a fine jagged edge, much easier to do and maintain in the field..I used a small axe file and finished with a little automotive points file, I don't know if you can still get them. I also used to coat my heads with a little Vaseline to prevent rust. Once at a 3d shoot my partner cut his hand on sawtooth.. Serrated? Grass..did he ever bleed! Fortunately I always carry a bandaid in my wallet..so we got the bleeding stopped..for years I would remind him how I saved his life..turned out he was on blood thinners.That incident convinced me as to serrated edges.

Codjigger

This thread wasn’t about single bevel or double , just head sharpness, which seems silly in itself really but here we are. :)

Jed, have you ever considered just buying some Grizzlies and just go kill some stuff? Maybe even shoot some pork butts with them to test? Since about 98% of us here shoot nothing but light weight white tails at 17 yards it hardly seems any difference between these heads could be measured really.

I hunted a season or two with grizzlies. I thought they were a good head they did the same thing my zwickeys aces and Magnus do.

It’s a mental thing for lots of guys. As soon as they lose a deer it’s the head. Plus lots of trad guys like to try new things.

Yeah, they kill stuff just the same for the most part, that’s why I keep using them.

Yes! It’s always the heads fault. They couldn’t find the deer without buckets of blood dripping off of every blade of grass. My guess is most lost deer weren’t hit well enough to die, either at all or quickly enough.

Straight, smooth, sharp edges, probably the best it gets.

I've never tried it...but I'm pretty sure if you put a field point into deer where it's supposed to be...that deer will die pretty quick.

Well, field points are illegal for deer, so probably not worth testing. And FWIW, there’s no reason (that I’m aware of) why a serrated edge can’t be sharpened up really slick. So if Both makes you feel better, get a sharp head with the scalloped edges. Just make sure it’s truly SHARP.

And shoot good.

"It’s a mental thing for lots of guys. As soon as they lose a deer it’s the head."

Good point. 99% of all lost game had nothing whatsoever to do with equipment failure of any kind...especially any legal broadhead.

So, why not use a 2 blade broadhead, one side of the broadhead razor sharp, the other side rough file sharp. Win win, best of both worlds.

I had a friend get the bright idea to blunt a doe 20 years ago. The deer ran off coughing and when he got down at dark he went the direction the deer went and found the deer dead. So you can kill em with a blunt. We all shamed him. He hasnt done it since.

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