I’m coming at this from an ILF angle right now, but I suppose that’s only coincidental; the same considerations seem likely to apply to 1-piece, 2-piece, and 3-piece alike…. I just don’t want a bow which will someday be in more pieces than the bowyer and I ever planned for….

So what makes for a strong riser? Or maybe I should ask what makes for potential weakness in a riser?

And maybe I should preface all of this with a caveat that I’m not that interested in what works fine at #45, because yes, I am looking for a riser that will take the heaviest ILF limbs which are generally available, which I believe is about #65; that’s the highest I have seen offered, and I have seen sites where the bowyer clearly states that they will not build any higher than that. Which is fine — I don’t need any more than that, and there’s always a point of diminishing returns that probably kicks in right about there anyway…. But if the stresses in a #65 are not 50% greater than a #42, there’s probably some math I need to have explained…

So what makes for the strongest riser? Metal probably wins, strictly speaking, but what’s next? Phenolic? G10? Or are those valued more for sheer mass than brute strength? And if you mix those with woods/wood products, do glue lines fail because of flexing, or humidity issues, or just because they’re there?

Someone suggested that I look at a $125 imported “actionwood” riser… which may well come off of the same production line as the TradTech, whether it’s a direct Clone or not…. But as I said to him, I have a “plywood” Howatt Hunter, and I have a couple of budget-friendly imported bows with laminated “wood” risers, and the difference between the two is the difference between a Humvee and a Hyundai….

I can’t help but think that Actionwood was used in the Warthog riser NOT because it was a Thing Of Beauty, but because it Plain Worked.

And let’s face it — most of us in the “Trad” camp are not so thrilled by Plain. Especially If we’re going “custom”.

But if you go with a phenolic or G10 or Actionwood I-beam, can you flank that with something prettier without any concerns over the strength?

So if you were going to spec out a riser for strength FIRST and THEN aesthetics, what would you do?

I would suggest that you ask this question of either a very experienced bowyer that builds the type of bow you are interested in, or a material engineer.

The answers you get on the open forum here are going to be all over the place just like most of the answers that you have received so far.

Well, I guess I can’t argue with that!

I guess the guys who build really good bows are probably too busy building bows to weigh in on such things here…

Just get some maple and glue it together. its not hard

Lord Have Mercy !

LOL :-D :-P :-)

I’m sure it seems like I’m down the rabbit hole again, but one of these really could take your head off, no?

Since they have been making 60 plus pound 3 piece takedown recurves for years why are under the impression a modern ILF riser made from wood is any riskier than any other 3 piece takedown design?

If you are that fearful you would be better served to stick to a one piece bow or a metal riser.

GF.....I think you should just get a cork-gun and be done with it.

Of course there are different densities of cork i suppose......

Good Shooting->->->->Craig

Any straight grained hardwood is fine for any bow you can pull. If you laminate the riser it just gets that much stronger. Maple walnut, shedua, babinga, bacote, tigerwood, ash, birch all make risers that are indestructible.

I would vote for G10. Any bow / riser I get anymore, I’m more concerned about durability than anything else. I appreciate a good looking bow with nice wood, but I beat them up and usually spray paint them anyway. I second the phone call to a reputable bowyer, but I would make sure they have experience building heavier type bows. I’m not an ILF guy, but I’m a heavy bow guy, and I go with G10 or dymondwood. I would assume the weak points on an ILF riser would be the limb pockets and where the limb is bolted down. I doubt the limb bolt installation is different than it is on a normal 3 piece. I have 95# limbs for a bear takedown. Kirk from Bigfoot was hesitant to build 75# hybrid limbs for me because he wasn’t sure if the riser would hold up. I think he even called bear to ask them. Black widow has some videos where they put risers in a press to see how much it takes to break them. The laminated wood they glue up to shape a riser takes a bunch of force to make it fail. If you’re dead set on wood, I would maybe check with Big Jim. He makes heavy bows, and also does a good bit of wood stabilizing. I imagine a chunk of riser wood impregnated with epoxy would be tough enough for #62 limbs. Another note on G10, is that I’m not sure that it’s manufactured thick enough to build a riser out of. I may be mistaken, but it takes several pieces laminated together to get the thickness for a riser block. If that’s the case then you’d be limited by the quality of a few glue joints. I could be way off on that though.

These are all just my opinions though. I had a classmate in kindergarten that ate Elmer’s paste right off the brush. His opinion was that it tasted fantastic. I let him have his opinion and moved on with my life.

The Stalkers with the G10 insert are the stiffest and strongest I've seen.

I do think that any quality laminated epoxy riser is pretty dang strong and will be fine. When was the last time you heard of a Black Widow, Blacktail or other major builders 3 piece recurve riser break? Never.

The ones breaking are the cheap mass made risers- including the 2 buck trails I broke are NOT quality made- cheap glue, poor assembly, etc and thats why you hear of them breaking.

You are overthinking this....

think Black Widow many years ago did a vidieo of a riser in a arbor press and went to 1300#'s with out breaking and bent limbs in a hair pin shape with out breaking or delaminating

Also, if you go to St. Patrick Lakes Bows website he has different wood choices listed, along with what they’re suitable for (riser, veneer) along with the mass weight. This info may be useful if /when you make a choice and wood is involved, you could see a comparison on how heavy it may be. I know it has nothing to do with the strength, but it could be useful information.

I agree with beendere, you’re definitely overthinking this. It’s a 62# bow, not a 620# bow. Ask a bowyer who builds them why 65# is the limit for ILF. They aren’t gonna tell you it’s because they can’t find strong enough material to build a riser out of. Plenty of heavy 3 pice bows have a riser made out of a solid block of wood with great figure.

Overthinking IS the default setting for me, no doubt. So honestly, I do appreciate a friendly dope-slap when I’m running off the rails….

Seems like the most critical points are the throat of the grip — where a sudden failure could take your head off — and the attachment points, where a failure might be a bit less violent, but still ugly. Seems like a bolt-down should be stronger, but at the cost of tuneability and choices.

But it sure would suck to drop 6 or 7 Benjamins on a riser and have it split on a glue line…. And because I’m rolling 2 digits on the Oldometer this week, I’m thinking this next riser will be my first AND LAST Custom-built for me; if I wasn’t thinking of this as part of my Retirement Plan, I’d probably just be looking for a #65@28” in 2 or maybe 3 pieces, bolt-down….

I’d still talk to Big Jim about epoxy impregnated stabilized wood. He may not have much info on ILF set ups, but I bet he would know the characteristics of stabilized wood vs G10, Dymondwood, or regular wood. I know damn well he would sell a chunk big enough for a riser, if it met your needs and you found piece of wood that gave you wood. Getting a bowyer to build a riser from material you sourced may be a tougher sell.

I don’t want to shock anybody, but I actually get a little bit bashful about calling somebody up when he is in the Business of bows and I’m not actually considering doing anything that would make him any money. I’m much more comfortable shooting the breeze with other Enthusiasts who are doing this purely for enjoyment.

About all I can offer someone like Jim Neaves is a chance to talk me out of asking his limbs to do something which they were never intended to do, so that there will be one less unhappy customer out there in the world in possession of some of his work. But he’s not building them anymore, so why should he care? At this point, am entirely dependent on his good nature to get me the information that I need… Fortunately for me, he is rumored to have a fair amount of good nature to spare…

O.K. you asked. Limbs fail way more often that risers. Risers usually fail / delaminate on glue lines. Self bows were made of Yew & Osage up to 100 pounds & over. They were not near as bulky as most of today's takedown risers. Machined metal is generally less prone to breakage than cast. Castings can have internal bubbles or pockets. Manufactured wood is stronger than solid wood. Fancy exoctic oily woods are a bit harder to glue. The more fancy stripes of exotics, the more glue lines the more potential for failure. You could make a riser out of solid steel then the limb break & knock you coocoo, poke out your eye, or make you sing soprano the rest of you life. The cork gun sounded reasonably safe.;<) <<<-----> Ken

Engineers Know Things.

Machinists BUILD things.

I have sense enough to appreciate both :D

Thanks, Ken! That’s what I was looking for, really…

Actually "machinists machine things" Toolmakers build things.

A 65 lb bow is not heavy. I don’t know how long you have been involved in traditional archery, but 30 years ago 60-65 lbs were “normal” weights, not “heavy”. There are 10’s of thousands of bows out there of that weight of all kinds of riser materials. If a bowyer tells you his riser will fail at 65 lbs draw weight find another bowyer. This is no where near a new discovery. ILF isn’t magic, it’s just another way to clamp limbs on a bow.

R

This may no longer be relevant but, back in 2000 I had the pleasure of attending a seminar hosted by Olympic gold medalist Jay Barrs. At the time, Jay was an ambassador for Easton arrows. Although the seminar was primarily on arrow selection and tuning Jay was asked about risers and riser materials. He said that without a doubt the Hoyt Magnesium alloy risers was the best he ever shot due to the balance of weight, stability and stiffness.

Of course things have moved on, but, at the time it was an interesting comment.

P.S. That Jay Barrs seminar all those years ago was the best 2 hours of instruction, education and tuition I've ever had.

If you are dead set on a wood combo riser, get one similar to this, where the ILF receivers, and LLAs are in a solid block with no glue line running through or along their sides.

Me - I would just go all metal and be done with it never to have to worry. :-)

Rick

@Ryan — I know that #65 is not all that heavy in the Grand Scheme. Rick and Ron LaClair used to shoot triple digit draw weights…. But I don’t know that the risers in current, mass production were ever intended to see anything like #65, and when people are designing for mass production, they generally cut costs wherever they can. Since phenolic is probably relatively expensive, I wouldn’t expect that there would be any more of it in a relatively inexpensive riser than someone has determined is absolutely necessary.

Just buy from someone who knows what they are doing. Many build things and expect to warranty some.. Others build and don't expect issues. they both have issues, but one is surprised and the other expects it.

At this time, I have no interest in ILF building, but If I did, I would be surprised if I had something fail, even though I know it will happen if you build enough. BigJim

Big Jim, just for my own curiosity, the stabilized wood that I’ve seen you make in videos, what are the properties of the finished product? Compared to a G10, or Dymondwood. Is it just to strengthen a piece of wood that would otherwise not be suitable for bow construction, or to make a suitable wood even stronger and more durable? Or both?

“Many build things and expect to warranty some.. Others build and don't expect issues. they both have issues, but one is surprised and the other expects it.”

WHAAAAT??? You mean those lovingly hand-crafted, one-of-a-kind creations are built by HUMANS, from intrinsically variable NATURAL materials???

Say it ain’t so, Jim!!!!

FWIW, I happen to know that Jim has shipped a bow or two to within about 10 miles from where I’m sitting right now, and I have seen enough of his 2-piece longbows to know that if I had more money and more patience….. I’d have one on order….

Personally I don’t believe there is a fail safe bow, from my experience I have had very expensive bow fail at greater rate than supposed cheap bows. Maybe it’s my luck or maybe the cheaper bows with simpler design have less points of failure.

I've only ever had one bow riser fail , it was around 1994 . The bow was a cast magnesium riser American Champion 70# compound . I was at full draw , aiming at a target when right at the smallest part of the grip the bow snapped in half . I ended up with a gash thru my eyebrow , a cut on my chest, a torn and bloody shirt and a headache . I bought that bow new at that pro shop several years prior . I had shot thousands of arrows and a bunch of deer and one bear with that bow before it broke . about two weeks previous to it breaking I tagged a late season buck with it from twenty feet up . After that failure I vowed to never buy another cast magnesium riser bow .

Do risers break? I have a friend who has broken at least 4. His formula is 80 pounds plus, he leaves them strung when not shooting. He has had two BWs go, A Robertson that was high 70s (previously owned by me). A couple by that guy in Western Canada, and few from a bowyer well loved here, who has since returned to a paying job. He is a very good shot and used to own archery stores. So he knows how to treat a bow.

I have owned lots of all wood bows, but all the ilf bows I have owned were metal. The ones I currently use are all 7075-T6. ILF is a great system. Very few people no matter how gym strong, can shoot 65 pound bows well. Being able to draw them with relative ease, means nothing, other than you are aren't disqualified from the get go. ILF is a great option because you can get cheap limbs that will shoot as well as the bows from name brands like Pearson, or Bear, of the past, for about 50 bucks. So you can easily keep your riser in use even should the heavy limbs not work out.

The failures in conventional risers I have seen, where all splits, not failures in the limb attachments.

Actually, you’re really not the only one there, Ricky! ;)

And your points are well taken. I just haven’t seen these are close, and as I was saying, I do have a few lingering concerns about the quality of the materials that they are using in that $125 price bracket… I can

OTOH, since I am now looking at potentially a custom-shop riser, it seems a little silly to think about dropping as much on a monolithic chunk of actionwood as you would expect to pay for something which takes a lot more time, effort, and skill to create. And yes, that’s Vanity winning the argument over Practicality, which, from a rational standpoint, should be No Contest….

"OTOH, since I am now looking at potentially a custom-shop riser, it seems a little silly to think about dropping as much on a monolithic chunk of actionwood as you would expect to pay for something which takes a lot more time, effort, and skill to create."

Your original question was only about wood riser durability. That's all I was responding to.

There are many reasons why a person might pay more for a Lamborghini than a Toyota...but reliability probably isn't one of them.

Action wood is not fail proof. Infact since it is made from a marginal hardwood, the only thing making it more stable is the glue joints. Dymond wood is just the same as actionwood but stabilized.. Like all the stabilized woods, the resin is designed to fill the fibers and not the pores.. although when trapped, it will fill many of the pores as well. Yes, much more durable than actionwood, but also not fail proof. Stabilizing definitely adds too durability, but nothing helps more than using an I-beam in construction.

To say that cheap bows fail at a lesser rate than more expensive bows is ridiculous! I would say that nobody is talking about them failing because they are too busy bragging about how they shoot far better than any custom they have ever had! Bigjim

Dymondwood for me. Jason at Kanati has been using it for years.

Big Jim, and when a cheap bow fails, it's disposable, as in "oh well", but when a middle-tier$$ or higher$$ bow fails = "wow" I just lost a ton of money....it gets noisey fast.

thanks for tips on dymond wood and action wood differences.

OK, Jim — let me be real clear that I’m not challenging you on anything here, but what’s your favorite for Strength? If not Actionwood or Diamondwood (I’m still not clear which is the stronger of those two), then what’s the best bet?

And as Steve said… A mass-produced riser for 1/5 the cost and no emotional investment… it’s no big loss if that falls apart on you. If you’ve spent a lot of time & energy selecting a combination of woods that sing a song to your soul, and you’ve waited for the better part of a year for it to be delivered, and you’ve maybe had a memorable hunt or two with it….. that stuff’ll break your heart.

Bear in mind that I am headed down this ILF rabbit hole because I had that splinter of carbon pop off the back of my Eaglewing…. I kinda feel like I’ve had enough heartbreak already. ;)

"that stuff’ll break your heart."

Only if you get emotionally attached to tools. To me it would be like being heart broken over a hammer or a shovel breaking. If the handle breaks you buy a new one. YMMV.

I guess some of us look at bows the way others look at trophies on the wall… I pick mine up, and I remember all the hunts, all the miles; the shots, the hits, the misses, the bulls just a bit too far to risk it…..

Just me, but arrows are Ammo; a bow is an extension of my body. And in the case of the Eaglewing, just about as hard to replace!

Corax_latrans, Diamond is definitely stronger than actionwood, but not any stronger than a good hardwood.

I have twenty or more woods I "Like" to use as riser woods, but can use almost anything as long as I'm using a suitable I-beam. I don't use dymondwood or actionwood.

BigJIm

So the reason that an I-beam is satisfactory on a bolt-down or 2-piece is that all of the real stress is confined to the I-beam, where an ILF distributes stress across more of/the full width of the limb pad??

@Ricky — I know some people think it’s BadAss to declare that a bow is Just A Tool, as if caring about the warmth of wood, or appreciating the beauty of a nice bit of grain is somehow beneath them. You do you. I think, though, that if all that matters to you is the Toolness of a bow, you wouldn’t be wasting any time with a single-string when you could go afield with a compound or crossbow….

I’m a fan of the middle ground; I won’t pay for style over substance, but there’s no immutable law of the universe which prevents that which is beautiful from offering utility. And JMO, life is too short to hunt with an ugly bow. My new-to-me Samick aluminum is not offensive to my eye, but it’s missing something. And DAMN, does it chill my fingers….

"I think, though, that if all that matters to you is the Toolness of a bow, you wouldn’t be wasting any time with a single-string when you could go afield with a compound or crossbow…"

That sounds an awful lot like "why not just shoot a compound?" LOL

I don't think it's "BadAss" at all. Many would say the same thing about those who say "life is too short to hunt with an ugly bow." To each their own.

Look at the archery catalogs of our youth. Back when archery was just archery...it was all about function. This "custom" trend really only came to be post compound.

You get right down to it, and a bow is a tool, and its job is to throw an arrow hard and fast and make it land where you pointed it.

So Corax, why would you assume ILF spreads the limb stress out over the entire limb pad when the ILF fitting is in the middle of the riser just lime the limb bolts on a 3 piece takedown?

I'm out of loop so pardon if this is a dumb question. What is G10? I see that mentioned sometimes in adds and the classifieds in reference to riser material.

Per Wikipedia:

G-10 or garolite is a high-pressure fiberglass laminate, a type of composite material. [1] It is created by stacking multiple layers of glass cloth, soaked in epoxy resin, then compressing the resulting material under heat until the epoxy cures.[2][3] It is manufactured in flat sheets, most often a few millimeters thick. G-10 is very similar to Micarta and carbon fiber laminates, except that glass cloth is used as filler material. (Note that the professional nomenclature of "filler" and "matrix" in composite materials may be somewhat counterintuitive when applied to soaking textiles with resin.) G-10 is the toughest of the glass fiber resin laminates and therefore the most commonly used.

I’m just copying and pasting today.

Wait, I’m confused. Is it OK to tell someone “why don’t you just get a compound” or not OK to tell someone “why don’t you just get a compound” if that person doesn’t do things exactly like you do?

So many mixed messages….so difficult to understand Leatherwall etiquette.

R

"I’m confused. Is it OK to tell someone “why don’t you just get a compound” or not OK to tell someone “why don’t you just get a compound”..."

Right? LOL

“I think, though, that if all that matters to you is the Toolness of a bow, you wouldn’t be wasting any time with a single-string when you could go afield with a compound or crossbow….”

“You get right down to it, and a bow is a tool, and its job is to throw an arrow hard and fast and make it land where you pointed it.”

I was hoping to get these two people together for a debate, until I realized it was the same guy posting in two different threads.

That’s me! Making LW heads explode for close to 30 years now….

Two different threads, two different conversations, two different contexts, two different intentions.

But — disagree if you will — there’s something about single-string bows that is about more than Utility, and that’s why most of us here are drawn to them. Why NOT “just go get a compound”??

You kind of have to be in the mood to provoke someone to ask them that question — and there’s a big difference between provoking a thoughtful response and just trying to piss somebody off to make you feel better about yourself, and it’s a good deal if you can keep keep track of which is which — but most of us have already asked it of ourselves and have come up with reasons that are good enough for our own purposes.

@Frank — so you’re saying that the LLA bolts don’t really get much stress on them? If they don’t, then OK, stands to reason that there’d be no downside to going with just an I-beam on an ILF…. But I don’t know if I have seen a single wood-phenolic ILF riser that was built I-beam vs putting all the phenolic on the back of the bow with the LLA screws running through that material…

I’m just trying to figure it all out…. Maybe if my hands just can’t take the cold of a metal riser, I should just go all-carbon like the Black Wolf or all phenolic like the Morrison… but neither really appeals to me the way a nice piece of wood does. And with Jim saying that solid woods are not necessarily weaker or more prone to structural failure than engineered wood, that does seem to open up a lot of possibilities….

Been making LW heads explode since 1994. Impressive!

"You kind of have to be in the mood to provoke someone to ask them that question — and there’s a big difference between provoking a thoughtful response and just trying to piss somebody off to make you feel better about yourself, and it’s a good deal if you can keep keep track of which is which — but most of us have already asked it of ourselves and have come up with reasons that are good enough for our own purposes."

Now that's a mouthful. lol

I THINK you meant ILF bolts not LLA bolts....Corax? and fwiw I read that the all carbon risers are not all carbon, they are something else simply wrapped in carbon. so there's that...if true.

Re: G10,,thanks.

"..there’s something about single-string bows that is about more than Utility, and that’s why most of us here are drawn to them."

In my opinion, what draws most of us to single string bows is two fold.

1. Challenge

2. Nostalgia/Sentiment

Neither having anything to do with the construction of a bow.

As always...YMMV.

Well, that’s up to you, I guess…. For me, there is — or at least can be — a great deal of nostalgia and sentiment wrapped up in a gorgeous piece of wood, and since there’s no utility lost in beauty — not necessarily anyway — why not hunt with a bow that makes you smile every time you look at it?

"...why not hunt with a bow that makes you smile every time you look at it?"

Pretty sure you already answered that question earlier in the thread.

"A mass-produced riser for 1/5 the cost and no emotional investment… it’s no big loss if that falls apart on you. If you’ve spent a lot of time & energy selecting a combination of woods that sing a song to your soul, and you’ve waited for the better part of a year for it to be delivered, and you’ve maybe had a memorable hunt or two with it….. that stuff’ll break your heart.

Bear in mind that I am headed down this ILF rabbit hole because I had that splinter of carbon pop off the back of my Eaglewing…. I kinda feel like I’ve had enough heartbreak already."

EW got damaged on a hunt. It still makes me smile. And when they put it in tbe box with me, our ashes will commingle. That’s a far better death for a bow than being tossed in a dumpster by someone who has no use for it.

‘Tis better to have loved and lost, than to have hunted with an ugly bow.

To each their own I guess. I say not falling in love with inanimate objects is best.

:)

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