I feel myself being drawn into the ILF LB matrix…

I understand that the Dryad and Border risers have different geometry which 1) Adds pounds to the limbs/draw weight, 2) Allows for higher pre-load, 3) Allows lower brace height.

All 3 of those things are traits which I LOVED in the Eaglewing (pausing to genuflect).

First… Is all of that True?

Next… Are there other good quality risers out there with similar/identical geometry?

Are there reputable bowyers out there who will build you an ILF riser with pad angle as one of the customizable items? (Many will do a custom grip, so it seems at least possible.)

Or would that run higher than Border/Dryad anyway?

For someone wishing to shoot #55-plus, are there no-go riser options as to materials?

And for a 26”-27” DL, is 15” probably the right choice of riser for speed?

All who have questions about ILF LBs are invited to ask them. All who have struggled or succeeded with an ILF LB are invited to share their stories. I may add questions as they come up, but I am 100% looking for information…

I can’t help you with Dryad or Border but the ones I’ve owned - VPA and Backland (DAS Dx5) have relaxed limb pad angles so they don’t gain weight any more than a 17” riser.

Border Tempest 17" pad angle compared to DAS DX5. Were pretty much the same. 17" Border Tempest weighed 38oz with no weights.

No offense, but I don’t think this is one of those things that you can just eyeball.

It would be really interesting, though, to find out whether the dirt cheap Border imitations is accurate enough to be considered an accurate clone. Not that I think it’s a good thing that someone in China has decided to appropriate Borders’ work, but it sure would be easier to talk myself into spending for a Border riser if I could find a cost-effective way to test drive their geometry before making quite that large and investment.

It’s just a lot scarier when you’re close to the top end of the weight range. Probably safe to assume that clones at Entry-Level prices probably aren’t engineered to withstand use at 60-ish….

You actually can eyeball the geometry close enough for the vast majority of needs. Especially if you lay one riser on top of the other and align the pivot point of the grips.

Well, I won’t argue that point… But if you don’t have the risers in hand, you really need to know what the angle actually IS… I can’t just look at a picture of one riser on this website and a different riser on some other website and figure out what the differences might be. And I have to wonder if the angles are the same on the wood risers as they are on the metal.

But Spike’s pic is reassuring as to the DAS vs Border… so now I just need to have someone provide a similar comparison at 15”…. I don’t know if the pad angles vary with riser length, so if anyone can speak to that…. Much appreciated!

All that I know is that my Morrison 15 inch ILF riser is a great match for my extra long Morrison carbon foam longbow limbs. Took a water Buffalo, Cape buffalo cow, and multiple hogs with that setup

A friend/shootin’ buddy has a 15 Morrison that I think I can borrow for testing. Pretty sure I’m drawing fewer pounds than you, Paddy ;). If memory serves, you’re well out of my weight class!!

But I AM hoping to wring a few extra pounds out of these limbs and STACK the pound- inches in the DFC with low brace and high pre-load. No, not smooth, but I’ve never shot as well as I did with Destroyer.

Discussion with Sid Ball of Border bows on the irrelevance of riser pad angle.

https://www.tradtalk.com/threads/ilf-limb-pad-angles-again.108369/?post_id=1211209#post-1211209

Thanks Spike!

I’m looking over my responses up higher and they read a lot grumpier than I had intended, so my apologies… Not my intention to ask for input only to shoot it down.

I’m just looking for as much hard data as possible… I guess my mindset is more compatible with shopping the Chinese side of the market, as if I were willing to assume that the Chinese/Ebay clone of your Border riser would actually extract the same performance from a limb… And if the geometry is the same, I’d think it should be awfully close.

So if Border has come up with an outstanding solution, I’d assume that competing bowyers are either producing something extremely similar, or they have good and specific reasons why they don’t do it that way. Every design has to make those compromises, so I guess I’m looking to understand the objective differences as well as I can.

That conversation with Sid about limb pad angles was actually pretty worthless in the end.

Hmmmmm…. Maybe this (from Sid) is the key point?

“ Its not like it is a secret. Its just a pointless measurement because it doesnt tell you the angle from the underside of the bolt flange to the location the rocker sits on.

Since that is the only measurement that matters. Which can be seen by way of poundage. Between that riser length and deflex values. The limb pad angles are like measuring your total hight when only looking at inside leg measurement.”

Sooooo....if limb pad angle is irrelevant then why do limbs have different draw weights on different risers?

That was/is the motive behind the thread!

This is a good thread that could get me in trouble again... now I'm thinking that I need set of ILF longbow limbs for my 17" Discovery riser. Thanks guys... LOL

They’ve got good deals on ‘em at 3R….

As someone that went down this road a few years ago, my answer is it is tricky and depends on your personal preferences. I bought a 17" DAS and almost immediately ordered a set of JavaMan longbow limbs for it. I could not be happier with that combo. It is super smooth both through the shot and after. I had always wanted a DX5 and finally got the chance to pick up a used one. It had a set of Bivouac/Sky longbow limbs on it when I got it. I never could get it to compare to the 17" w/ JavaMan limbs, so I tried the JavaMan limbs on the DX5. I still could not get it to compare to my original setup. It wasn't as smooth drawing or as dead after the shot. It didn't matter where I put the brace height, or any other tuning I tried. If I had never shot the 17", I probably would have been happy with it. As it is, I finally put a set of Samick Athlete carbon/foam recurve limbs on the DX5 and it was like magic the difference it made with that riser. I know the DX5 is the riser they market toward the longbow fan. It just didn't work for me as such. If there is any way you can get to a large event and try some of these before buying, it could save you, or change you mind entirely.

Corax, now I can answer to you. If you lean more on chinese side of the market, a very good option is the White Feather Lark riser

Here it is next to my Dryad with Bosen limbs on it vs Dryad with Epic limbs on it - both 19"

Gents, this is how I understood Sid comment: He was saying that the limb pad angle doesn't count because you don't know what is the angle between the place where the limb touches the pad and where the limb touches the bolt and you don't if the geometry of the limb butt is the same to guess the daw weight of a limb which is not native to the riser. The limb pad angle make sense just for the bowyer when he decides how the limbs of his design will work based on his ow design. Check above: Dryad has a steep limb pad and the limbs are almost flat on the riser at almost full in tiller bolts. The same limbs on the White Feather Lark have a different position at "full in" and you can't say what poundage will be with certitude.

If the riser design is more inline you get one thing. If the riser is more deflex design you get another thing. Border is offsetting the riser design by having a thicker geometry for its longbow limbs butts. The angle says nothing about the random limbs on Tempest - some might work, some might not.

Am I nuts, or is the White Feather the same riser as Old Mountain (and perhaps others)? Hard to tell it apart from some of the 3R offerings.

The price of it is fairly attractive, though I am definitely torn between taking my chances at the low end of the price range and committing to a much bigger nut…. Frustrated that there are so many fewer choices when you go to a 15”, though.

PS It is a video on YouTube made by a guy about Border longbow limbs and a Bosen riser. He gets #58 on that 19” riser when the limbs are market #50 on 19” riser. Bad choice of riser and limbs combo -> when you play with speciality designs. If you want Border performance, mix and match is not the best option.

Well, I just pulled the trigger on a pair of Centaur limbs which the seller reports were hitting #61 on a 15” Dryad Epic when backed out 1 turn, and he couldn’t get them under #55 on a Satori 17”…. So I’d assume that they’d go higher on that riser if asked politely… ;)

Hoping to approximate #62@27” and I realize that I may come up short of that, but we’ll see what efficiency I can wring out of whatever risers I can get my grubby hands on.

You should be close to your targeted weight and good choice on the combo

Well, that’s the trick, isn’t it? I don’t think I’m anywhere close to a decision on the riser question…

My Epic limbs are marked #45@28” on 19”. In reality they are #51@28” on the riser with tiller bolts in just enough for the limb butt to not bind with it. I would think that #55@28” on this 19” Dryad Epic riser in this setting will be #61@28”. I would venture to say that a 17” Dryad would be enough to get your desired weight.

Good to know…. And now I just need to rob a small bank…. LOL

That’s why I have been asking about the geometry; hoping there’s a less costly option, probably preferring a 15”. But it needs to be relatively bomb-proof.

Looks like a Dryad G-10 riser might fit the bill at a somewhat lower all-in cost than the Morrison all phenolic, but then (if I just go with a 17”) a BW Carbon can probably be had for a lot less. Or maybe spin the wheel on a metal riser and try a Black Elk or something along those lines…

But I keep seeing the assertion that 15” is the preferred length for a longbow…. And Dryad offers them down to 13”, but I would have to know exactly why I wanted that before I’d think about ordering one.

The shorter the riser the shorter the sight window will be. Are you an instinctive aimer? If yes, sight window doesn’t count. If not, 13” will push the envelope for an aimer

OMP Carbon Z 15"er now $135 on AT ads.......good risers. https://www.archerytalk.com/threads/omp-carbon-z-ilf-riser- rh.6286850/?post_id=1116458977#post-1116458977

Metal risers that take Jager grips are important to me. With those Centaur limbs I would get the VPA 13” it will be your best ever bow.

I should look at that, but I can’t figure out why the link won’t go. Found 1 space in “riser- rh.628…”.

No concerns over the wood-phenolic combo?

I have gotten great endorsements of VPA; the major issue I have is Cold. Bad circulation in the hands, so the thought of carrying a metal riser in a snowstorm actually scares me a bit….

But in hopes this thread will help someone other than just me…. What do you gain from 13 vs 15?

You gain just #2 from 17" riser to 13" VPA - I had one and sold it. Interesting little riser but too small of the sight picture for me as aimer. Longbow limbs on it work, but you will be in the 7.5"-8" BH range - depending on limbs.

In my experience ilf riser limb pad angle tend to accommodate recurve limbs better. Some great longbow limbs are just noisy dogs on most ilf risers.

can take any old ILF riser and any old ILF recurve limbs, set it up quick and shoot, and get some respectable results. Generally speaking. ALSO generally speaking, you MIGHT expect to need to tinker a bit with each riser and ILF longbow limbs set, tiller, brace, nock height, string length, watch the side profile of limbs, before getting it right. my humble opinion. I have not found a RECIPE for setting them up yet, as all of my many sets have seemed SOME different, a bit individual, in what they wanted. Still learning.

“Some great longbow limbs are just noisy dogs on most ilf risers.”

So how much of that is simply due to the risers being too long in the first place??

Seems pretty clear that if you want to shoot LB ILF, you have to select your riser accordingly, and from far fewer options. Sounds like it’s easy to shoot RC limbs from a 15, but LB limbs on a 17 can be more of a crapshoot.

Which is why this thread.

The riser being too long has little or nothing to do with it.

It's the angle of the limb pads. If you take 2 risers that are the same length, one with a take off angle of 5 degrees, and one with a take off angle of 19 degrees you are going to get different results in brace height, pre-load and performance.

This is EXTREMELY simple unless you try to make components work together that won't and never should.

Seems like that’s where I came in on this — looking for data from those who’ve had good results with Centaur ILF LB limbs on ___________ risers, and wondering what other risers have similar/same geometry.

Honestly, I am getting the impression that the bowyers are treating limb pad angles like some kind of Secret Sauce, rather than an easily measurable dimension. Bicycle companies ALWAYS provide that information for about every angle on a frame, and then there’s the link to where Sid says that the angle isn’t actually The Angle….

I get it — they want to sell complete bows, and the take-off angle of the limb is the net of the angle on the limb pad and the angle on the butt of the limb. If the bowyer’s would just tell you what they’re building, you could look at the spec sheets and either get it right the first time, or buy the right component to get your riser or your limbs to produce the desired net effect…. And there’s more money to be made by forcing consumers into a trial and error process….

Here's what I'll bet.

If you call the folks that built the limbs and tell them what you are trying to do, they will point you in the right direction. I would also be tempted to be that the folks at Lancaster would do the same thing.

But...don't be surprised if they tell you that you aren't going to find a great match.

Honestly...it's not a riser length thing......it's more like (my experience) lower cost ILF longbow limbs will need more experimentaion and trial and error & possibly multiple tries on risers....to get a right shooting experience. I've had ZERO problems in noodley limbs or noise & vibrations or setup with any of my SKY (belcher) or Centaurs or Java Man longbow limbs. I've ran likely 5 sets of SKYs and Centaurs (probably more) and 2 sets of javamans - on 13"ers (Morrison and VPA, and a custom LOC DO 12.75" riser (with lots of deflex and 24 degree angles) and 17"ers and 19"ers and ran them on 21" Rambo & Spectra ILF warfs and 21" Black Bear warfs and I mounted some on a 23inch Best Zenit and a couple of 24 inch Hoyt ProVantage warfs. Most of my risers have been fairly deflexed, which kind of flies in the face of some advice. I think it's kind of a get a foot in the door and try some things, with ILF longbow limbs, and hard to make a flat blanket statement on it all.

selstickbow knows his stuff on ILF longbow limbs, I would take his advice since he has already done the work.

Yeah, it’s about time he dragged his butt out into the light of day!

And that’s really the whole point of the thread… Get notes from those who’ve already done it into one place, so that others can benefit from their efforts without quite so much trial, error, and (be honest!) expense….

J-SAN on TRADTALK is a real fan of ILF longbow limbs, and he has ? tried them all, I pale in experience compared to him. He is a huge fan of the 13" Morrison and VPA risers and XL limbs, he likes Centaurs and SKYs and Dryad ACS, and he has this year bought at least ONE set of the Backwoods Composites......I've not really got his take on the BWC ones yet, I think he is still working into them.

X2 on the VPA riser... I shot a 15" riser and between swapping out grips, changing the center "cut", and adjusting the tiller... arrows fly like darts. VPA + Bosen = bad medicine

I keep seeing strong endorsements for the VPA, but it’s just so hard to warm up to a metal riser when the temps drop. I’ve done so many things outdoors in cold weather for so many years that my hands lock up REALLY fast. My brother’s even worse, and he’s reaching for the down mittens long before we get down to freezing.

I’d be a lot tougher now if I’d been a little smarter then. But that one is still on my list of potential fits.

B.T. = nice, Samick Extreme BFs on a DAS gen2? classy.

Coral_latrans, you are shooting plenty poundage. I only go heavy for buff. Plus I had the end of my clavicle cut off a month and a half ago, and I haven’t drawn over 70# yet. Taking it slow.

Good grief, man! That’s a non-trivial injury, whether you’re put under for it or not! Mine seem to have been torn off of their moorings, but at least I’m not missing pieces…

Marbles, maybe…. ;)

Take your time with that rehab effort — setbacks have a way of becoming permanent, but so does recovery if you don’t get into setbacks….

Pretty impressive that Steve can peg the limbs & riser from that little information…

This the “angle” that is talked about?

yes but you need to be sure lines of pocket sidewall are same / parallel as the actual floor of the limb pad deck. see picture, another way to measure the angle of riser limb pads.

Is there an industry standard blueprint template for that sort of thing?? Once again, I find myself thinking in terms of bicycle frames, just as a comparison.

I don’t know if I’m helping myself or not at this point, but I was just looking at the Eaglewing, and it sure does look a lot like a 13” riser with a 3” sight window…. So I don’t suppose that I would have any real problems adjusting to the shorter sight window…

Just measure from fade out tip to fade out tip and that will give you the riser length.

And no...there is no regularly followed industry standard. That was the original mission of AMO, and we all know how that worked out.

Well, THAT would be a whole different tale of fish then, wouldn’t it?

Steve made the fades REALLY long here, so arguably 22” (the camera lens distorts the measurement a bit…). But from a mass/balance in the hand standpoint, it’s more like 13”…. And compared to metal or phenolic or just a micarta/G-10 I-beam, it’s a Feather!

VPA's................

The one I own now is my 4th one.....this one stays! There is nothing I do not like about them, just for some reason or other always seemed like someone needed it worse than me. I have had the black(3) and green (1) Seriously, no joke, I called them yesterday to order the red, white, and blue.....thank goodness I got automatically put on hold and did not have time to wait. Probably best anyhow.

They just started the "no grip" thing, use to be that came with it. Still the $80 off (black Friday sale) is a great deal. Made in America, aluminum riser flat out seals the deal for me.

Good Shooting->->->->Craig

Note, the angles shown/measured only apply when the limb bolts are all the way in, and the limb is tight to the riser like a conventional 3 piece takedown bow. The Limbs on DAS/ILF bows contact the riser at the rocker and limb bolt. They only contact the riser "pad" in the rocker location, so the measured angle shown does not necessarily define the limb behavior relative to another riser unless you crank the limbs bolt down to the max, which is not how either design was meant to be used. You can ultimately get the same limb position on two different limb pad angle risers by adjusting the limb bolts differently.

Just to make my misery complete, eh?

I’m hoping to speak with John at JC soon; guess I should get hold of someone at VPA as well, with their sale on.

Does anyone think (assuming identical net poundage) that a pair of Longs would be any faster/slower on a 13” riser than 15” or 17”?

On the one hand, I am a bit skittish about going to a much heavier riser than I’m used to, and OTOH, I’ve been shooting 62” bows for 30 years or so, and I’ve got the one 64”, but very few shots taken at any less than 62”… Not that I find the 52” Thunderbird at all difficult, but #2 Son has pretty well staked his claim on that one….

And not for nothin’, but that one has its own bulky, massive, phenolic riser, and it does shoot!

asked - Does anyone think (assuming identical net poundage) that a pair of Longs would be any faster/slower on a 13” riser than 15” or 17”? nope.

Considering the source, I think I might take that answer to the bank! ;)

But then again… Maybe you’re just still giddy over the outcome of that football game?

WOW, counting lucky stars, on the football game....but it's a win. and average my NOPE in with other answers, I hope others chime in.

Just realized that really nobody has answered one of my Qs from the OP -

“For someone wishing to shoot #55-plus, are there no-go riser options as to materials?”

I have pretty much decided that I am not going to take a risk on a $100 aluminum riser — I don’t care whose design got cloned. Likewise, while I haven’t heard of any disasters with Sage or Black Hunter risers (and overall, they seem to provide a great value)…. If I crank a pair of limbs to #60 or more…. Am I being paranoid to not trust a laminated maple riser?

The wood/phenolic layup seems really popular, but it that because it Works, or because one factory is flooding the market?

Since you only pull 25” it doesn’t matter. LOL

Since you only pull 25” it doesn’t matter. LOL

Who only pulls 25”???

Surprised to note that there has been so little discussion of the Samick Discovery… Made in Korea, probably on their flagship equipment, I’d guess…

But the few pics I have found do appear to have limb beds that should add weight/preload…. SO frustrating to not have data….

Try a google search for the Samick Discovery riser, there is a lot of information out there.

Well, I HAVE been scouring the web, and found where Wingnut (Mike Westvang) mentioned that deflex is not so much your friend with an ILF LB, and he confirmed that “steep” limb pad angles are conducive to the lower brace height and higher pre-load that I’m hoping for…

Meanwhile, I’m hearing via PM that Jim Neaves kinda worked out his LB limbs on a TradTech, so I’ll probably bend his ear on that this week if I can catch him. Probably never a bad idea to ask the guy who built the limbs which riser he’d recommend…. Chances are he wouldn’t steer me toward anything that would make a dog’s breakfast of his creation….

"deflex is not so much your friend with an ILF longbow... ....the heck you say.

Have you found otherwise?

I wasn’t sure about that, to be honest, and I know that you don’t buy the argument that deflex costs some power stroke…. But it does stand to reason that standing those limbs up as straight as possible means that you would have to bend them a lot more to reach your anchor, so the rest of it makes intuitive sense to me, anyway…

Actually I DO buy the theory that deflex costs power stroke. Deflex is built in string follow. If that string follow causes an increase in brace height, you lose actual draw length. Every inch of brace height is an I ch of draw length.

The deflexed limb pad angle on the readily available ILF platforms don't make for optimal performance.

As I mentioned previously. There have been decades spent optimizing recurve limb performance on typical ILF risers. In comparison virtually no research has been in optimizing longbow performance on an ILF platform.

How about a Black Wolf? It will be light like your Eagle wing. There are people shooting longbow limbs on them with good results too.

BW is in the mix, but is longer than I need a riser to be.

With a short draw, the longer riser, shorter limb bow, might be a better performer?

For longbows, Longs are short. ;)

And Neaves is not a big dude, or so I’m told….

I'm thinking that my Samick Discovery would be a good candidate to try longbow limbs. They don't have much deflex. I think the 17" would work the best with long or even extra long limbs.

I got a little technical assist on the Discovery - at 17° it is mid-range for pad angles.

I think I have been told that the range is 15 to 19.5…

The Discovery riser looks good,

The Discovery riser looks good,

I definitely prefer my 17" to my 21". The DAS longs ($159@3 Rivers) will make a 62" bow and the extra longs will make it 64"...both are lengths that I like.

That’s another reason I’m thinking about a shorter riser — 17” would be my upper limit, I think; hoping to find the right 15” and might go to 13” if that would help me hit my draw weight objective.

But that gets into “does a shorter riser add pounds or not?” and I’m still gathering data on that question…

Here are the takeoffs of 10 of some of the most highly regarded takedown longbows on the market right now.

Nothing that you have mentioned so far is going to come close.

This riser from RMS Gear in 17" MIGHT get you close.

WOW! making it a lot more difficult than need be.....

VPA 13" and 15" will give you a weight readout of a 17" riser.

Right now at $332 for a United States made riser.....rest is up to you.

Good Shooting->->->->Craig

ILF/DAS limbs I have tried to date:

Longbow ILF/DAS Limbs used to date: DAS older carbon foam DAS (made by Belcher/SKY) longs and XL DAS Bamboo and glass XL Dryad Epic longs Morrison MAX-1 Longbow Longs Javaman Double carbon XL

Risers I have tried with ILF/DAS longbow limbs (Long and XL). Worst performing to best ranking in terms of minimum required Brace height, noodling and overall shootability IMO.

21” Morrison HDX

21” DAS Dalaa

19” Morrison Wood ILF

19 DAS Tribute both ILF and DAS configuration

19" CD WF Stalker ILF

17” DAS Dalaa

17: SKY TDX

13” VPA

15: DAS DX5

Currently using DAS DX5 and Javaman Double Carbon XL combination. Would like to get my hands on some Centaur ILF to try, but have not found a set yet. I do own a one piece Centaur Chimera Carbon back, camo glass belly that is my current hunting bow.

I’m not clear on what you’re telling me there, Frank. But I’m pretty sure that the first of those risers is a Dryad Epic ILF; I am hoping to hear from them about the geometry, but I have been told (by the seller) that the limbs I just bought will hit #61-#63 on a 15” Epic. If I had six or seven hundred bucks burning a hole in my pocket, I’d probably just order one, but I’m willing to believe that the Magic is in the geometry and that I could get to the same outcome with a riser made of metal, carbon, phenolic, wood, or some suitable combination, so long as the geometry checks out.

But for now, all I know for sure is that the Dryad site says that their “Limb angle creates a +8 lb. limb formula for limbs rated on a 25? riser.” I don’t know if that applies only to RC limbs, but I suspect so. Sounds like the Standard for LB limbs might be a 17” riser, and the +#8 (reportedly) is the same increases reported for the limbs in hand.

And the Morrison site says that their aluminum risers are 18.5, 19.5 and 20 degrees, for the 17, 15 and 13 inch risers, respectively. Weight gain is reported at #8, #8.5 and #9, again vs the 25” riser…. Which doesn’t yet mean anything concrete to me, though there’s at least some consistency with the Dryad site and the info from the seller.

If I can get someone from VPA to fill me in on their angles, that’ll be great to know. It’d make that part a lot easier….

Meanwhile, as mentioned, I’m hearing that the Samick 17” is at 17°, and I don’t have any idea what the weight formula is for that one.

I guess I can’t say that Frank didn’t warn me that a lot fewer of these mysteries have been worked out for long bows… ;)

Just to clarify, Spike….. When ranking minimum brace height, does lower mean “better”? Guessing so….

And have you ever had the chance to run force-draw curves on any of them?

Yes, lower brace that is comparable to typical R/D longbows (6.75" to 7.5"). I have developed draw force curves in the past. I am not chasing the most stored energy under the curve as that does not guarantee the fastest velocity as the efficiency of that energy transfer to the arrow is not 100% and some designs are better than others. I prefer a curve that offers decent energy storage yet provides a pleasing draw feel to me. I will try and post a curve or two of a R/D bow comparison I made a few years back and perhaps plot one up of my current DX5/Javaman setup.

That would be hugely appreciated!

I will attempt to upload the curves for the EW and the RER…..

More data….

According to VPA, their 13” comes off at 21°, and the 15” at 19°.

Sent a follow-up asking where brace heights come out and whether they have sn estimate as to how many pounds they figure to add on LB/Longs.

Here is a DX5 Javaman XL DF Curve. Data collected by me alone so some parallax errors in reading perhaps contributing to some of the curves lack of smoothness. Note the X axis is in AMO draw length so starting point is Brace plus 1.75".

Hmm. This is gonna be tricky until we get our proportions standardized!

Sorry curve should be shifted 1 " to left on the x axis. Starting at 9" AMO draw for 7.25" brace. Using an old Apache Calc spread sheet to generate graph. So curve is smooth to 28in than starts to increase. I draw 28" so my draw stops before the slope starts to increase.

Heard more from VPA, stating that the Long LB limbs might gain a pound or two, but didn’t promise anything more than that, even after I mentioned that more gain is what I’m hoping for.

Gotta like it when people give it to you straight, rather than telling you whatever you want to hear so long as they get the sale.

Spike mentioned to me that the Bivouac Backland is a re-branded, ILF configuration of the DX5. And I sure can’t dispute that based on photographic evidence.

And I didn’t realize it at first, but interesting to note that this riser doesn’t appear to have a shelf other than the grip itself. That could allow for some customization if you wanted, I suppose….Or maybe I’m just missing something from the photos….

One for sale on Ebay and it does have a shelf.

Hah! That’s the angle you don’t see on the 3R or Bivouac sites.

OK — that makes more sense. But I still haven’t come across the pad angles. Looking at the bivouac site, though, I would say that the brace height’s liable to be higher than I’m looking for….

Jim Belcher designed the Backland and created a DAS version for 3Rivers. There is a shelf. The bow comes with a rug rest. There are two holes in the riser - one for use with a plunger off the shelf and one higher up for an elevated rest. I tired different rests on mine and ended up shooting off the rug rest using a nylon head set screw in the lower plunger hole.

I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered Jim Belcher originally making the first DAS DX5s for 3rivers. I am betting everything on them interchanges. I have read NOT SO, but I'm maybe hard-sell...

Still waiting to hear from a pretty good number of folks about geometries…. Hope they aren’t all going to treat it as Trade Secret information when it’s all already out there in the world.

The draw weight on the Backland I had was very close (depending on the limbs)to the draw weight on my 17" DAS was. The VPA 13" was about a pound lighter in draw with comparable limbs.

For some time I was tiring of seeking more and more performance and wanted to get back to shooting longbows. bought the Bosen carbon limbs to try on both these risers. I read where folks said the Bosen limbs needed a higher brace height - 8" or so - but I didn't find that to be true.

In the end I was underwhelmed. If I wanted speed the recurve limbs offered that. But I wanted to enjoy shooting, not make more work each time I picked up the bow. So I sold everything recurve and ILF related (except for one EXE Scream) and changed over to real longbows like I shot twenty years ago.

Steve, you are correct.

Phil, it's rare, haha. THANKS for corroboration.

I really like the look of the Bivouac Backland, although (unless I'm just not seeing them) the absence of LLAs is somewhat of a concern to me when mix matching limbs to the riser.

The limb pads look similar to the DAS to ILF conversion plates which do have LLAs. If I ever did another riser WARF I would use those plates to do it.

Rick

There are too many variables in riser and limb combinations to be scientific about it. Its been fun watching you chase your tail in the pursuit though.

There are too many variables in riser and limb combinations to be scientific about it. Its been fun watching you chase your tail in the pursuit though.

Yeah, I’m just gonna have to take a flyer at some point, and I’m just trying to keep the economic impact to a minimum, since it appears that the best bet is either a Dryad 15” or trade the #55s for #60s or #65s….

Unlike Phil, I’m not at all put off by the search for Performance; about the only downside is the cost of ammunition when misses and hard hits are so likely to be destructive…. This is a bent Judo inside of a bent brass insert that blew out the sidewall of a .340 carbon footed with 2219 aluminum. My #55 recurves are vastly less destructive of arrows and points….

I have not yet floated that idea directly, though I mind of hinted at it in a note to South Cox…. I have assumed (perhaps incorrectly??) that he is the one building the Peak to Peak risers that RMSG is offering, and it has occurred me that one of those burly, G10 I-beams finished out with the geometry of a Dryad Epic 15 might be the Jackpot… but it would likely run substantially higher than the off-the-shelf P2P pricing, so I’d really like to be sure that it would do what I want it to do for me. The Epic runs a little less, but only if you forego any phenolic or choice woods, and I’d sure hate to wrap up $500 or more in a riser that doesn’t make me smile when I look at it.

To get EXACTLY what you are looking for you are probably going to have to find a riser/limb combination that replicates the geometry of the EW at the same overall length and draw weight.

I mean that seems to your benchmark for a minimum level of performance.

The reality is that ILF risers are built for recurve limbs, and the ILF longbow limbs are built for ILF recurve risers…the few risers built for longbow limbs are left with limbs that are made for recurve risers.

Adjustable limb pad angle?

Who builds that??

Seems like it should be possible to alter the limb pas angles as on a Frankenbow or a Warf, maybe by just inserting a shim or something?

Elite makes an ILF riser called The Flex that has adjustable limb pockets. I know 3Rivers sells the bow.

As far as wedges...my dad and Harold Groves were putting wedges under the limbs of Harolds takedowns 40'ish years ago.

Wow. That thing is truly hideous….

Hope I’ll hear something from some of these bowyers…

That Elite riser adjust from 17 to 19 inch. It's wild looking, but I like it. Wish it would go to 21.

Rick

Well, Rick… If it works out for you, I’m sure we will get a detailed report!

I can’t help, but think that for that kind of money, I would probably just go ahead and order a Dryad with a little fancy wood in it.

CL, I don't plan on getting one of the Elite risers. Just making an observation. I'm plenty happy with my JCOs.

Rick

Corax , that adjustable limb pad shot was from somewhere on a frankenbow thread.

Maybe I’ll get lucky and someone will ID it for me….

Corax, it is a Hoyt magnatec

I was thinking ONE of the Gillo risers had adjustable limb pad angles. maybe not. at any rate it's a moot point, SORT OF, since all ILF risers have limb bolts allowing for some adjustability to tiller and pounds and draw length / unstacking. to me, the only thing the adjustable limb pad really offers is the ability for different angles BOLTED DOWN HARD. am I missing something?

Gillo says 30% adjustment in their risers. That's a big difference.

But if the point is to use longbow limbs, then the best solution is to buy a riser created to use longbow limbs like the Backland/DAS Dx5, VPA or one of the others. I know some folks used recurve risers with longbow limbs but, to me, that defeats the purpose.

ONE THING I THINK is true, and that is that it's pretty hard to say what will and won't work out well, without trying it. I have pretty well tried out a ton of DAS & ILF risers of various lengths and angles.....with a lot of different ILF longbow limbs.....and my 2 favorite risers for ILF longbow limbs FOR ME are the 17" DAS gen2, which is a pretty deflexed riser, with 15 degree limb pad angles.....and my 19" Pearson Equalizer warf riser with DAS DALAA pads on it......a much more straighter riser profile, and same 15* angles. SOME have said the TAC Firwefly 19" ILF riser is perfect for longbow limbs....and I have had several of those risers.....and they worked.....but are not my favorites. CAN't say they worked any better for ILF longbow limbs than some other risers. I think it's safe to say it's SUBJECTIVE and is not a lot different than getting your favorite ILF RECURVE riser set up. what one guy calls good might get horrible reviews by the smart guys on youtube videos.

DAS 17"er and Centaur mediums......

pearson Equalizer 19" DAS warf and Centaur longs.....

What do your brace height and gain on the DAS look like?

Nov. 4th I told a friend "on gen2 DAS where bolts were locked in place ABOUT a turn out..... 39.5/26 43/27 45.0/28 48/29" and this was on my draw board. I also noted - after I messed with strings quite a bit - DAS GEN2 with Centaur mediums - I got 7.0" BH and limb profile shaped right.......so it was best there. SAME with longs on the DAS Equalizer - - 7.0" BH and great shape - - string relaxed a bit / not so TAUT at brace...string was too tight feeling at 7.5"++...great shooting rig......both of them.

DAS risers are all 15 degree pad angles - I have several and run LB limbs on them with no issues.

I had some dealings with South Cox recently on a pair of his Dryad Carbon Epic LB limbs that I have on a 19” DAS Tribute. He indicated to me at the time that the same size Epic risers he makes have 17 degree pad angles. I gained 2#’s with the limbs on my DAS riser.

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