How do bleeder blades affect penetration in non-bone hits.

I’m talking about the small bleeders in Magnus Stingers or Bear heads?

They don't.

The difference may seem inconsequential in some instances, but they hinder penetration 'some'.

Not my rule. It's physics. It's a drag. And should be common sense.

Beyond penetration, there are a few pros for another discussion.

"They don't."....yep....

X2 JJ

Interesting. The old-timers who mentored a few of us in our area said to carry a couple of arrows in the quiver with bleeder blades on the Bear heads for mule deer and only two- blade heads for elk for better penetration. Albeit this was in the "old days" but these folks took bucks and elk quite regularly.

Will bleeder blades penetrate? You bet. I dug out a Bear head with bleeders from the skull of a young bull elk my hunting friend shot in that sweet X spot between the eyes and ears as it was looking back at him and he took a quartering away shot as it was standing still and missed to the left. It penetrated dead on the length of the broadhead and about another 1.5 to 2 inches of the shaft before it snapped off flush with the skull. The thin insert bleeder blades were in perfect condition and went against the thoughts of that time that they would shear on bone because of their thinness.

All of this doesn't mean much, except as an historical context of those times and the gee whiz file. But I haven't used bleeder insert blades for several decades now, just because.

Because some say there is no difference and some say there is, I would like to see a ballistic gel penetration test with everything being exactly the same except 2 vs. 4 blade . And of course, perfectly straight flying arrows on every shot would be important for a fair comparison and analysis . Shooting not less than 3 shots with each style into new unshot gel .

Jeff Durnell is correct, simple physics.

4 blade broadheads...and broadheads with bleeder blades don't really have the same profile.

Particularly when you compare something like a 4 blade Muzzy to a Bear Razorhead with the bleeders installed.

“I would like to see a ballistic gel penetration test….”

The problem with gel being that live tissue is elastic and reactive…. The gel is heavy and inert. So live tissue mostly pulls away from the arrow and gel just squashes down on it… except that sometimes when muscles contract they can squeeze the shaft a bit on whatever length of shaft lines up.

A lot of people say skinny arrows penetrate better than 5/16” or fatter….which sounds at least plausible, but once the BH has passed through almost any tissue at all, there will be fat and/or blood lubricating the shaft and at that point, geeeeeeeezzzzze, does it REALLY matter??

LOL …. Soooooo easy to think yourself in circles with this stuff…..

I’m using 2-blades because it seems to me that at any given weight, a 2-blade will have to be (overall) more robust (4-blade Zwickeys are probably an exception), and I don’t think that is going to hurt anything. More importantly, I do think that 2-blades should have an advantage in penetration, however slight, which increases the likelihood of an exit wound, which improves the chance of recovering the animal.

For me, at least.

Then there is the argument of opening the hide a tad more for less shaft resistance on entry.

It really boils down to the same argument for any broadhead. In the right place they all work equally well.

This is part of an article that Fred Bear wrote: "I use the Razorhead® (the Bear Razorhead, if you’ll permit me), and I always use the insert even in shooting an elephant … and there’s a reason for this. The insert opens up an “X” hole and gives better penetration because it relieves pinching on the shaft and leaves a better blood trail. I use a Razorhead® with the insert for all kinds of game. Makes no difference the weight of the bow or the size of the game."

From personal experience, when you use the bleeder blades on a Razorhead you get a bigger entrance and exit hole. Yes they do break off inside occasionally but the benefits out weigh the risk of getting cut by a piece of the bleeder blade. I wish they still made the Super Razorhead it was a good one.

I have shot deer with both and had pass threws with both with mid 45# ish bows. No help there. I do believe that I had better blood trails with the bleeders though.

I dunno about the Fred Bear thing…. I mean yeees, buuuuut…..

#1, he was selling a product, and bleeder blades are probably a higher frequency purchase than complete heads; and of course some Thrifty People only buy more of the same heads that they’ve already got when they run low on inventory…. But if it’s “New and Improved”, well, that’s differnt. ;)

#2, if he was shooting heavy poundage with wood arrows, they may well have been 23/64”, at which point maybe friction on the shaft adds up a lot faster. Or maybe they worked out fine on the Jumbo because elephant hide is so tough that it tore the bleeders off on impact ;). I don’t know if he was shooting glass or aluminum by that time…

And just to consider…. Howard Hill certainly DID shoot a lot of heavy poundage, and he was all-in on the 3:1 ratio 2-blade. He, too, was selling something, no doubt, but he could have offered a bleeder blade and I’m not aware that he ever did. I’m sure someone here can settle that either way…

They are worth the small loss in penetration due to the increased potential of additional hemorrhage……it really is that simple.

Yea physics say they would impede penetration some. But you will not notice it given the parameters above

Never used them, never needed to. They leaked.

It's about arrow placement. Get to know deer anatomy and always take high percentage shots. Do this and you will either see or hear your deer crash. Blood no blood, really does not matter when properly shot deer do not go far. Almost always they blow blood out their mouth when properly shot. It is not rocket science.

“Almost always they blow blood out their mouth when properly shot. “

So is dead-center heart “properly shot”?? Because you can’t get there without hitting both lungs, and my first whitetail with a bow was square through the heart with no signs of blood on the ground (or on the muzzle) even where he fell.

In fairness, a second hole, through the off foreleg, probably wouldn’t have bled much either… On a running deer, the holes through the front quarters just don’t align very often or for long.

So you can call that a fluke, but if you play the percentages……

“Almost always they blow blood out their mouth when properly shot. “

So is dead-center heart “properly shot”?? Because you can’t get there without hitting both lungs, and my first whitetail with a bow was square through the heart with no signs of blood on the ground (or on the muzzle) even where he fell.

In fairness, a second hole, through the off foreleg, probably wouldn’t have bled much either… On a running deer, the holes through the front quarters just don’t align very often or for long.

So you can call that a fluke, but if you play the percentages……

"How do bleeder blades affect penetration in non-bone hits.

I’m talking about the small bleeders in Magnus Stingers or Bear heads?"

The most important lesson anyone can learn here, and especially new hunters here is.....Learn who to listen to and take advice from. Check those yearly "Harvest" kill threads and choose wisely.

The fact that bleeders may slightly impede penetration, is probably offset by also causing there to be less friction on the arrow shaft itself. Whether it does or doesn’t, I still would rather shoot heads with bleeders of some kind.

MP

Exactly Supernaut

Good advice Supernaut.

Supernaut X3

Supernaut X4

Yes, because Science is only valid if you have killed at least 17.4 deer (a guy has to start somewhere) AND have posted pictures of every single one of them here on the LW in every thread where other people are posting their photos. If you miss more than three threads in a single year, all of your bowhunting knowledge is Null And Void.

You should also know that there is no use in asking questions, because no learning is ever valid, no matter who the teacher, unless you have seen it yourself. Even if you don’t understand what you saw. And then you are totally free to make up whatever explanation suits your fant’sy, because hey, YOU saw it.

Just make sure you take pictures, or it never happened.

Remember, the OP asked about bleeders affecting penetration. The answer is yes, but that does not mean they are not beneficial. I use heads with bleeders.

Wait a minute Jim. I'm a little slow, so are you saying that someone with experience in the area of discussion will have the most accurate advice on the subject?

Agree with Supernaut.

I'm honest and can prove what I say. I know some people that post here aren't and can't and I know what that makes them. If this last statement offends you then that's your problem and not mine.

A huge part of learning is being taught by or paying attention to someone that has actually done it in my opinion. I know who to listen to and who is full of BS. It didn’t take me very long to figure it out here. Some type about it and some do it. That’s ok, whatever floats your boat.

I’m no physicist like some here but I know broadheads with bleeder blades kill game. I don’t know or care if the extra 2 little blades affect penetration. I would feel confident in using them hunting based on the opinions and experiences of many people that actually kill stuff. YMMV.

I totally agree with Jeff...

Supernaut X2.

I’m the O.P.

The reason for my post is that I shoot, hunt with, low poundage bows and want to maximize penetration as well as blood loss. Most of my experience has been with 3 blade heads and higher poundage. I can no longer shoot higher poundage bows, so looking for responses that will help me decide if choosing heads with bleeder blades is the best option.

They break off and will cause infections. Thats what I read decades ago. I never needed them. 2 blade works great.

I mostly use a two blade broadhead but I have used two and four blade broadheads with no issues. Like many have said. A sharp broadhead (two, three, or four blade) shot in the right spot is what is important.

Toby, if you would give more information like the bow you shoot, poundage of the bow you shoot, arrow weight, etc, some of the members on here with real experience using bows in your poundage range and arrow weight can give you a more accurate information.

Toby I used to shot heavier bows with heavier arrows and used whatever heads like you. Now at 70 I'm using 40lbs with lighter arrows and using Zwickey No Mercy 2 blade. Slightly longer and narrower heads. Just make sure whatever you go with is hair popping sharp, including the bleeders if you go that direction.

Toby, Corey Baily ( basinboy) on here is one who shoots lower poundage bows and kills many deer and hogs. He posts here occasionally and has a YouTube channel. He kills a lot of critters with his lower poundage bows and not his opinions. He pushes some big ole broadheads through lots of critters. Another gentleman with real experience with fairly low poundage bows and tons of critters is Robert Carter. He quit coming here but has a YouTube channel under his name. Nemo is a real deal hunter too but he’s not got to that low poundage mark like me. Look for those who value experience over opinion.

Toby, This was a Zwickey 4-blade that I modified with a dremel. It was shot out of a 40# Leon Stewart Slammer at 13 yds on the ground.

In and out of the lungs on the other side of a nice healthy doe.

I do shoot 2-3-and 4 blade heads but do think there is much positive in the more cuts the less drag on the shaft, it just makes sense.

Good Shooting->->->->Craig

Supernaut X8

I don't remember which ones were shot with two blade or four blade broadheads except for the last three years that were killed with two blades (2021 Magnus Classic. 2022 and 2023 with Bear Razorheads) but both two and four blades worked good when sharp and put in the right place. From 1969 to 1973 I hunted with 45# bows, then from 1974 to present I hunt with 55# to 65# bows. Here are a few of my pictures of animals taken with two and four blade broadheads. I never tried three blade broadheads. I'll have to one of these days. Put a razor sharp broadhead in the lungs/heart and you will be good.

Razorhead bleeders were designed by Papa Bear to break off if hitting bone, but the purpose as stated above was to open the wound channel for better blood trail...

Great pictures as usual Nemo.

There’s talkers and there’s doers. Pretty easy to sort out who’s who.

Toby I don’t know what you call light, but here are a few that were taken with bleeders.

40# 59. Took a rib on entry, took a rib on exit then went through the humerus and cleared another 2-3”. That was a magnus with the bleeders.

That’s a 36-37# ASL at my draw. Went through.

Northern Mist LB. Pretty sure it was 42#. That was a three blade Woodsman. No penetration issues either.

Excellent pictures Yooper.

I don’t know Jim, no clue how my beard got so “white” lol.

Great information, thanks for sharing. Love the pictures and equipment descriptions.

Yooper nice pictures.

Reading through some of these older threads, Supernaut, you hit the nail on the head.

If I liked them, I'd use them. But I'm shooting about 15 lb. less than when "I was as good as I once was". I've migrated to 2-blades but have shot 3 & 4. I just felt better when they weren't "removable". I was never wild about retrieving a head with a missing blade and then reaching blind up into a chest cavity to slice a trachea! With all the blood thinners the "sawbones" have me on now, I wouldn't even bother to call the EMT's. I figure with all my hunting the missus had to put up with, the least I can do is spare her the headline "dumbazz bleeds out while field dressing deer"! FWIW and the sake of full disclosure, I've never lost or broken a fixed blade "bleeder", but have had it happen with several replaceable-blade heads from my wheelie days!

I occasionally experiment with stuff just to see.

number of years ago, i purposely used a lighter arrow and muzzy 100 gr 3 blade trocar tip.

lots of pro's for heavier arrows, razor sharp 2 blade broadheads, vs , light arrows replacement blade broadheads.

but i wanted to see for myself...So deer #1...complete pass through from about 15' or so in a treestand....I hunted PA and MD that year....deer #2 ditto...deer #3...same, #4..same.

i shot 4 or 5 ? that year, no problems whatsoever... Just a funny note*, the last one was here in PA a doe, i watched her go down below me, but stayed in the tree for awhile anyway. Little buck came along, and proceeded to horn her...i left him tenderize her for awhile then thought i better put a stop to it.

I can say from "my" experience.... properly tuned arrows, good shot placement at the right angle, and sharp broadheads, is way more important than what type of broadhead you use.

personally?....i seem to use ace 2 blade more than anything, and i've killed more deer over all with them.

Far as toughness? hard to beat a good solid 2 blade, i have an old magnus 2 blade 125 gr...that killed 3 deer and a gobbler, still have it, still good.

Jeff is correct. The more surface area the more friction resistance there will be.

But, the difference is mostly irrelevant outside of hard bone impact.

I use & love Jerry Hills' two blade heads, but still have to say that my favorite all time heads are the VPA 3 blades.

I don't kill a lot of animals (anymore), so take that for what it's worth. :-)

Rick

When I started bowhunting back in the 1970's, the Bear Razorhead was the only broadhead that we could find. Remember, this was way before the internet and ordering thru the mail was rare. First deer I killed with them the bleeder blade stuck in the offside ribs, just the tip of the broadhead sticking out of the hide. Always used the bleeder blades, at least for the first shot. When I missed, and I missed a lot back then; the bleeders would break off so it wasn't long before my Razorheads were just 2 blades. Stopped using Razorheads years later when I went to a legitimate archery shop and a guy shot a Razorhead and a Zwickey Eskimo into a 55 gal. steel barrel. The Razorhead curl up like a elf's shoe and the Zwickey just had some paint scuffed off. Been using Zwickeys ever since. I used Eskimo 4 edge for years. Didn't have to worry about the bleeders breaking off. Now-a- days, I just use 2 blade Zwickeys. I think bloodtrails are more about where you hit them and if you get a passthru or not. Plus, a two blade is easier to touch up in the field if you need to.

I have shot deer with both bleeders and no bleeders with my razorheads. Both work well. I didn’t hit bone, they were pass throughs. Bleeder blade help leave a nice blood trail. No broadhead I have ever hunted with works well Through bone.

I hung up a large intact buck from my loader and shot many different heads into it. The Bear with the bleeder got more penetration than any two blade .

After shooting both over 45 years, my assesmenrt is that bleeders vs no bleeders is inconsequential.

I’ve never noticed any difference on whitetail with penetration between any head actually, but I don’t shoot really low poundage.

Here is my two cents worth from this year. I’ve killed 8 critters so far. Five different stickbows and four different broadheads. Three critters were shot with Zwickey delta heads that had bleeders and blood trails were outstanding! Well I consider them bleeders, some on here may not as opinion varies. I love multi blade broadheads like Zwickey, Snuffer, VPA, ect. I’m not going down the penetration rabbit hole, because there are so many variables that affect penetration. When I started, I shot two blades because that is what people recommended. I killed double digit critters with two blades, but was never satisfied with the blood trails. Made the switch in the late 90s to multi blades and have never needed or wanted to go back. Good luck and have fun!

I've come around to the idea that anything that you can sharpen properly will close the deal if you do your part.... and there is not a head in the world that will save you if you screw the pooch.

When it comes to broadhead performance any broadhead will work great and any broadhead will perform poorly. There is an infinite number of variables, all of which affect performance,...bow weight, # of cutting edges, weight of arrow & bhd, angle of shot, what part of animal hit, what was animal doing when shot, straightness of flight of shaft of arrow, how sharp is the broadhead edge, etc., etc., etc.,..... The point is, they all will work and they all will fail. The best broadhead for you is the one you have used in the past and have had success with. It is the one that you believe in and instills confidence in your ability to put the animal down. You need to believe in the tackle you are using to have the utmost confidence in your hunting ability. Then you will do the best in the field. If you are a beginner and do not have a treasure trove of past experiences to rely on, pick out a select few trusted friends whose opinions you believe in and ask their advice. After hearing what they say, temper your ideas with their wisdom and make a choice. Your field experiences will guide your choice from then on. From a bowhunter in WI

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