Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Tuning issues

Messages posted to thread:
Lhskyguy 09-Jul-24
Rick Barbee 09-Jul-24
crazyjjk 09-Jul-24
olddogrib 09-Jul-24
Corax_latrans 09-Jul-24
Live2Hunt 09-Jul-24
TradToTheBone 09-Jul-24
2 bears 09-Jul-24
David McLendon 09-Jul-24
aromakr 09-Jul-24
bodymanbowyer 09-Jul-24
Kanati 09-Jul-24
Lhskyguy 09-Jul-24
Lhskyguy 09-Jul-24
Linecutter 09-Jul-24
Babysaph 09-Jul-24
Mechanic 09-Jul-24
bodymanbowyer 09-Jul-24
lcamp319 09-Jul-24
M60gunner 09-Jul-24
Lhskyguy 09-Jul-24
Karl S 09-Jul-24
Rick Barbee 09-Jul-24
Linecutter 09-Jul-24
Lhskyguy 09-Jul-24
Rick Barbee 10-Jul-24
Lhskyguy 10-Jul-24
Lhskyguy 10-Jul-24
Kansasclipper 10-Jul-24
Rick Barbee 10-Jul-24
Mortis Sagittas 10-Jul-24
longbow#1 10-Jul-24
Corax_latrans 10-Jul-24
Therifleman 10-Jul-24
BEARMAN 10-Jul-24
Lhskyguy 10-Jul-24
Corax_latrans 10-Jul-24
Corax_latrans 10-Jul-24
Live2Hunt 11-Jul-24
Snow Crow 11-Jul-24
Snow Crow 11-Jul-24
Corax_latrans 11-Jul-24
Snow Crow 11-Jul-24
BEARMAN 11-Jul-24
Corax_latrans 11-Jul-24
Snow Crow 12-Jul-24
Rick Barbee 12-Jul-24
2 bears 12-Jul-24
straightarrow 12-Jul-24
fdp 12-Jul-24
Kelly 12-Jul-24
BigJim 13-Jul-24
Longdraw 21-Jul-24
From: Lhskyguy
Date: 09-Jul-24




As a left handed shooter what could cause me to constantly have a nock right? From my understanding for a lefty that is consider weak spine. Even with a 40 pound bow a 340 spine and 100 gr point it still shoots nock right? Mainly trying to wrap my head around it I know everyone says start weak and start cutting down the arrow but at this point I just want to find something that will shoot stiff. I’ll add point weight or go down a spine from there if I end up with more weight then I want up front

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 09-Jul-24




A .340 is pretty stiff for a 40# bow, especially with a 100gr point, and even if left full length.

Chances are (likely) you are getting a bounce/deflection causing a false reading of weak when they are actually way stiff.

Rick

From: crazyjjk
Date: 09-Jul-24




I shoot 40 lb with a 27-1/2 arrow and I am shooting 600 spine arrows with 180 gr up front or 700 spine with 150gr up front. You are way oversized unless you have a very long drawlength.

From: olddogrib
Date: 09-Jul-24




Yes, I'd say trade those .340's for some .600's and repeat.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 09-Jul-24

Corax_latrans's embedded Photo



Same post, smaller picture

You are NOT “weak”, unless your arrows are six feet long…. I do cut mine down to a bit less than 28”, but I’m shooting 340s with 225 up front… from #62….. And FWIW, a lot of guys here who have a lot more general Archery experience can’t figure out how I can shoot arrows as stiff as I do. So I’m constantly second-guessing myself….

So first thing…. Have you shot any bare shafts, and where do they hit, compared to Fletched? I’ve come to ignore what the nock is doing in the air and focus on where the point lands in the target.

If your bow is cut well past center, JMO, build out your side plate to about neutral. Moleskin will work, as will thin pieces of leather. That’s what I had to do for a bow cut well past center when everything was hitting off to the right, with fletched & bare in the same place…. At that point, it was more like a sight correction than a tuning adjustment, because after the build-out, both fletched and bare were dead-center at 45 yards.

But so far, you’re not saying that you have good flight with odd/inexplicable POI, which is what I had….

Most of my friends who shoot low-mid #40s are using 600 spine, full length, with 150- 175 up front; one shoots 700s with 100 or 125. So I’m guessing that you’re just so far out right now that you oughtta look into exchanging or trading those 340s for something at least 3 spine classes lighter.

Tuning is a highly personalized thing, so you could be 100% correct with your current set-up because I’ve overlooked something enormously important…. But at the moment, I kinda doubt it.

From: Live2Hunt
Date: 09-Jul-24




Yes, your 340 is way stiff, especially with 100 grains. I shoot a 50# bow with 400's and 175 up front.

From: TradToTheBone
Date: 09-Jul-24




I shot 340’s with 175 up front cut to 31”from 55-59lb @ 28” drawn to 29.75”. Today I shoot some 40lb @28” and 340 would be extremely stiff. My guess is 600’s if staying with 100 grain points.

From: 2 bears
Date: 09-Jul-24




Nope for a lefty that is stiff. Your arrows are way too stiff. You need at least a 600 spine. Maybe 700 if you want that light a point.>>>----> Ken

From: David McLendon
Date: 09-Jul-24




My cancer bow for when I'm too weak to pull my hunting bows is 40#@28 and it shoots .600 and 150 grain points.

You are getting a false weak indication from a way too stiff shaft striking the riser.

From: aromakr Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 09-Jul-24




I agree your over spined, however when you say your arrow is nock right, does that mean nock right IN the target or in flight?

Your spine is correct when you shoot at a vertical line on the target, while looking down the arrow shaft and the point is directly on or under that vertical line. for a lefty if the arrow is right of the line its too stiff, left of the line its weak.

Bob

From: bodymanbowyer
Date: 09-Jul-24




Yeppers,as mentioned above. Way to stiff. Even for a recurve at the poundage you mentioned. Are you shooting a recurve or a Longbow? JF

From: Kanati
Date: 09-Jul-24




I shoot a27” 500 spine out of my #40 lb with 300 up front.

From: Lhskyguy
Date: 09-Jul-24




I didn’t start with 340 I started with a 500 and went from there I do shoot a 30” arrow so I don’t have much to take off I ended up at 340 going stiffer and stiffer

From: Lhskyguy
Date: 09-Jul-24




It isn’t just one bow that I have the issue with I’m to the point I just grab arrows and shoot and correct myself where they hit where I want not ideal. But it’s something I’ve messed with for years now and yet to shoot an arrow I actually thought hey this is a well tuned arrow

From: Linecutter
Date: 09-Jul-24




Your arrow is SO stiff it is bouncing off of the side plate hard enough to throw the tail right. Going stiffer or lighter point will only make it worse. Even with a 300gr point that 340 will be way to stiff. You say you shoot a 30 inch arrow but you don't say what your draw length is and we can't assume what it is by arrow length. Are you using a Dacron string or a High Performance one. That makes a difference. You also say you started with a 500 which I assume was showing what you "thought" was weak because of the fore mentioned reason and went to a stiffer shaft but you kept getting the same reading. That is the thing with a shaft that is TO stiff they can lie to you with what is going on. It shows the exact opposite of what is actually going on. The 500's you have are still 30 inches long try putting on a 225gr, 259gr and a 300gr point and see what that does. If you have any full length 500's try them with the fore mention point weights. As others have mentioned try a 600 spined shaft. The longer something is, the weaker it becomes, also the more weight you put on the front end of it, weakens it even more. The opposite is true, shorter is stiffer and less point weight is stiffer. You are looking for a balance to get great arrow flight. You want the shaft on the slightly weaker side to start with, the point weight you want to use, if you plan on cutting anything off. Only cut only a little off at a time when cutting till the arrow flies true. You may want 30 inch shafts, but you may end up with 31 inch shafts, and perfect arrow flight. Hope this helps. DANNY

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 09-Jul-24




Why do you guys shoot those over spined arrows and the add weight to em to weaken them up? Why not just use a shaft that is spined correctly?

From: Mechanic
Date: 09-Jul-24




Way too stiff spine, 600 or even a 700 spine is more like it at that weight. Definitely not 340, unless you put a boat anchor on the tip.

From: bodymanbowyer
Date: 09-Jul-24




Right on Baby. JF

From: lcamp319 Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Jul-24




I agree with most here, seems way stiff. But, try moving your fletching. Try cock feather up or in and see what happens.

From: M60gunner
Date: 09-Jul-24




Babysaph X3.

From: Lhskyguy
Date: 09-Jul-24




My question isn’t just the 40# bow so say I take a 50 pound bow I throw a 500spine arrow with 200 on it shoots weak I shoot a 175 it shoots weak on down to 100 them restart the process with a 450 then a 400 then a 340 and it reads the same should I be shooting a 30” 600 spine arrow off a 50 pound bow?

From: Karl S
Date: 09-Jul-24




If you shoot the bow canted knock point high

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 09-Jul-24




This isn't intended to be an insult, so don't take it that way.

If you aren't making significant changes in the dynamic spine of the arrows within such a wide spectrum of shaft static spine, and point weights, and especially with them "always" showing weak, then you probably need to be looking at something you are doing with your shot.

Rick

From: Linecutter
Date: 09-Jul-24




To add to what Rick said. Look at your release, how you are gripping your string (shooting off your finger tips, string in the first joint of all 3 finger, or deeper hook) or how are you gripping the bow? If you are shooting a glove maybe try a tab or vice versa. We're not being able to see your shooting style, so we are just trying to give you ideas to try and help, to get you thinking outside of Your box. As I type this, what is your brace height? One that is to low, will affect spine readings because the arrow is not clearing the string soon enough when the bow hits brace height after the string is released. DANNY

From: Lhskyguy
Date: 09-Jul-24




Rick barbee that’s one of the worries I have is it’s my shot and form. I have had others watch me I have videos myself and watched with no major issues (I can notice) I wish I could post videos for others to watch on here maybe someone can pick me apart i actually have an ilf on the way I have traded for now that is low poundage im going to be putting a plunger and a clicker draw check on it just to try to work on this because there is always room for improvement issues with my release possibly I’ve been shooting a trad bow and killing deer successfully with one since 2015 but I want to step up my game shooting at a target at the house and I feel getting a well tuned arrow .is the starting point.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 10-Jul-24




Drake, I wish we lived close enough to hook up for some shooting.

While I wouldn't guarantee it, there's a real good chance, that together we could figure out the issue.

Makes me happy to talk to open minded folk. :-)

Rick

From: Lhskyguy
Date: 10-Jul-24




Linecutter I have always shot a glove with string in first joint. I have tried tabs but never got one trimmed where it was comfortable shooting always stung the very tips of my fingers when I released one of the reasons I mentioned my release may be part of the issue but back tension a relaxed hand and follow through doesn’t seam to be in videos or the way it feels. But when shooting a tab it just doesn’t seam the strings comes off my fingers very clean. I would love to find a tab that seams comfortable and does sting my fingers I know they suppose to be better but when it stings I feel I pull my hand away from my face or “pluck the string” trying to get my fingers away from it befor the little sting occurs so I went back to the bearpaw Bodnik speed glove and send my yost and omnivore tabs down the road.

From: Lhskyguy
Date: 10-Jul-24




Yeah Rick I knew we was freinds on Facebook I went to see where you was from actually right after I seen your comment and was going to pick your mind one on one but it wouldn’t let me messege you.

From: Kansasclipper
Date: 10-Jul-24




The old carbon express heritage 75 shafts were around a 670 spine I believe and that is what I shot out of my 41#28 recurve. So it is possible that if your draw is shorter than 28 and depending on what string you shoot that you might even need to go to a 700 spine. 700's spine perfectly for my Kota Kill-um that was 40@28 but that bow isn't cut to center.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 10-Jul-24




Drake, I have no idea why you can't message me on FB. Other people do all the time, including those who aren't in my friends list.

Rick

From: Mortis Sagittas
Date: 10-Jul-24




Drake, my general "rule of thumb" is a 40- 45lbs bow will be 600 spine if it's 30", 45- 55 will be 500 spine and anything over that 400 is as high as I've needed to go as all my bows are 60lbs or under.

Say I throw a 500 that's 30" on a 50lb- 55lbs, if it shows weak from 175grn points down to 100grn points I'll go get out my 600 and try from 100grn up to 175grn. Normaly that will find the arrow that works best, FOR ME. if the 600 and the 500 show weak through those cycles, then I go get my 400 and work my way up from 100grn. I personally like to rule out an overly stiff shaft first.

From: longbow#1
Date: 10-Jul-24




Do you always shoot left or right while target shooting or when you say nock right is that specifically just shooting through paper?

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 10-Jul-24




“I ended up at 340 going stiffer and stiffer”

Just a Rool o’ Thumm…. When nothing works, you’re fixing the wrong damn problem.

You’re reminding me of my first attempt at bare-shaft tuning. With some very nice, tapered cedars. I misread them as too weak, so I trimmed them back until they were flying so poorly that they shattered themselves on impact. One of those “I cut it off twice and it’s still too short” moments….

So JMO, let’s back up to “you can only tune as well as you can shoot.”

Sounds like you have a pretty expansive arrow inventory, so I’d say (especially if you can’t find a knowledgeable mentor) try a 600 with 175 up front, fletched, and work on your form, shooting at a vertical line until you can hit it. Ignore the up & down for now. Anything you can see will do. If you can find a volunteer, have them take slow-motion video from directly behind you, shooting right down the length of your arrow. Have them stand on something if need be. This will show you if your draw hand is flying out to the side or your arrow is wobbling in flight.

If you go ILF, get one of the ILF guys here to talk you through setting up an elevated rest.

From: Therifleman
Date: 10-Jul-24




Matt, sent you a PM.

From: BEARMAN Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 10-Jul-24




340 is way to stiff for 40#. Get some 600s.

From: Lhskyguy
Date: 10-Jul-24




Okay over the next couple weeks I’m going to do some shooting and some picture taking. I’m going to stick with one bow and change arrows and get some pictures of them fletched and bare and will probably even add some pictures on myself shooting to see if any one can point any issues out that I have that could be causing these issues. I feel like this is the place I will find my answers but need more info for yall to help me get to the bottom of my issues. I have nearly 20 different half dozen or dozen ranging in spines and every weighted insert and point something has to actually work. What distance does everyone say I should be at I’ve always done about 10 yrds but looking for insight on that as well.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 10-Jul-24




First see what you can hit at 10 with a fletched (long) 600 + 150 or 175 with a standard insert. If you’re grouping under 6”, you MAY benefit from bare-shafting, but 4” would be better and really, if you want to get fussy with tuning, you could leave it ‘til you’re shooting more like 2”, apart from obvious flyers….

Personally, it would have saved me a few perfectly good arrows to start bare-shafting at 5 yards, just in case something is way off. Then if bare is reasonably well-behaved, start moving back a few yards at a time. If you back up in small increments, you get to shoot more. If you move back in too-large increments, it can cost arrows. Pretty much your call. I just know I tried to rush it and it cost me.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 10-Jul-24




And incidentally…. “Why do you guys shoot those over spined arrows and the add weight to em to weaken them up? Why not just use a shaft that is spined correctly?”

Speaking only for myself, I am looking for a certain amount of Mass in my arrow, and a 500 carbon at my length with 200 grains up front (standard insert) weighs right about 480 grains, if memory serves… I could tune the same bow with 400s or 600s with heavier or lighter points, but I’m a lot more interested in the total payload than a heavy front end.

And of course when I shoot 340 carbons and 2117s out of the same bow, I’m using ONE hundred twenty-five grain points, not TWO hundred twenty-five. TAW is comparable to where I don’t consciously compensate at all. And FTR, I’ve never seen nor heard of anyone loading up an aluminum shaft with extra weight up front.

From: Live2Hunt
Date: 11-Jul-24




I am only a bow hunter. I select the broadhead I want to shoot then select/setup my shaft for that broadhead. My broadhead is 175 grains, so using spine charts I tried 340's with 32" shaft, 50# bow, 31" draw length. Those shot stiff, so I went to a 400 spine shaft. They shot perfect with bare shaft and fletched. Yes, your release will affect your arrow flight, so work on a crisp smooth release. Start with your nock point high, like an inch and work it down from there. The shaft slapping on your riser and or shelf will give you false readings and settings. Just my 2 cents.

From: Snow Crow
Date: 11-Jul-24




Lhskyguy,

Not having seen you shoot in person or measured your draw length and centershot of your bow I wouldn't hazard a guess as to your tuning dilemma.

I do know if someone of Rick Barbee's caliber offered to shoot with and help me figure something out I would drive a loooong way to make it happen.

From: Snow Crow
Date: 11-Jul-24

Snow Crow's embedded Photo



As far as "loading up" aluminums: No one does it, couldn't possibly work.

10-20-30-40 walkback; lowest is the 40.

55# Montana longbow, 27.25" draw; 28.5" 2117, 250 grain head, 680ish TAW, 20ish % FOC, 4x3"x10mm feathers.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 11-Jul-24




OK, so now I have seen/heard of ONE person who has built a nose-heavy aluminum.

There’s absolutely no reason that it shouldn’t be possible (and to be clear, I never suggested that it wouldn’t)…. But aluminum shafts are heavy enough that there’s no reason to go that route unless you’re chasing an unusually heavy arrow (which some do) or you’re just trying to make them work because that’s what you have to work with….

From: Snow Crow
Date: 11-Jul-24




"But...there’s no reason to go that route..."

Not for you to decide what is or isn't valid for anybody but yourself.

From: BEARMAN Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 11-Jul-24




I use 175-200 grain tips on my aluminums just because I like too. Not chasing any FOC, I just like bigger broadheads.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 11-Jul-24




Jesus, dude…. You should go to work for Faux News.

From: Snow Crow
Date: 12-Jul-24




Breaking News:

Sources say a middle aged man on the East Coast, whom we can't identify due to mental health shield laws, puts teenage girls to shame when it comes to daily phone use and social media participation.

One local teen commented "He should, like get a life, you know? Like, get a hobby or something."

Reporting from CyberLand,

Faux News

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 12-Jul-24

Rick Barbee's embedded Photo



Drake. Just a couple things to consider:

(1) Oft times, a spine issue is rooted in how you are griping the bow. Specifically whether or not your grip pressure is landing inside or outside of center line of the bow.

(2) Bows being shot & tuned while shooting canted need to take the cant into consideration of how the arrow is landing.

Picture to explain #2

Rick

From: 2 bears
Date: 12-Jul-24




Wow, never thought to diagram it. Probably because I don't know how to put sketches in the computer. Yes Sir, just read the target on the same angle you cant the bow & everything works out. >>>----->Ken

From: straightarrow
Date: 12-Jul-24




Once you go to a lighter spine and heavier point the arrow will hit where you’re aiming and look good getting there. Then you will be worrying less about form issues. I shoot several left handed 40# longbows, some shoot lots of different arrows good some are picky. Even the picky ones like 600 spine cut to 30”, 100 grain insert and 175 grain point. For my 35# longbow I cut them to 31 1/2”, 100 grain insert and 150 grain point. 700’s are pricey and hard to find, try some of the inexpensive arrows from overseas for your experimenting.

From: fdp
Date: 12-Jul-24




Big Jim has .700 spine Dark Timbers for $69.99 a dozen if you are looking for .700's.

From: Kelly
Date: 12-Jul-24




You are too stiff, 600’s and 1916’s should work. Vary the point weight before changing length.

I am another person who uses aluminums with heavy points 175-250 depending upon size. Sometimes even have tried 300 grains up front. I like the flight from heavy foc arrows.

From: BigJim Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 13-Jul-24




I suspect that you are too stiff with the 500's on your 50lb bow.. not so much the 500s but your over all set up.. draw length and arrow length.

Lots of good information here, but it can be confusing with 50 suggestions. If you would like to talk about this, i would be happy to help. contact me directly at [email protected] BigJim

From: Longdraw
Date: 21-Jul-24




Liv2hunt. I shoot the exact same setup 400 spine full length with a 175 grain head drawing 31.5in out of a 48lb at 28in





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