When you can get this.

Chinese and a little Rooty.

Looks like you had a close call with that chrono cover. :)

It all depends on what I'm doing with that arrow. If I'm target shooting or on a 3D course, a lighter arrow is fine. But if I'm hunting elk, I want a heavy arrow with a heavy broadhead because I'm more concerned with penetration than speed. And the range at which I'll take a shot on an elk (20 yards or less) a few extra fps and the trajectory drop just don't matter.

"When you can get this" Get this from what? What grain and set-up produced those numbers?

What Maclean said.

Just curious, would you use that arrow set up on whitetail?

Mostly just because 10-12 GPP is where my hunting weight bows have tuned nicely, and apparently my brain doesn’t process and remember the trajectory of faster arrows because I’ll shoot high all day with super flat flying arrows. Also lately I’ve been shooting vintage bows so I don’t want to stress them by shooting too light an arrow from them. Other than those reasons I would like to have something shooting a 600 grain arrow that fast but I don’t see that happening unless I start taking steroids LOL

Define too light, and how you came to that conclusion. 10 gpp can mean a 600 grain arrow to many archers, to me it means 470 grains and I don't consider 470 grains light at all. I know guys that consistently kill whitetails, with many pass through shots, with sub 400 grain arrows. You guys may actually want to try some various weights, rather than rely on what you hear on the internet. I believe our Rick Barbee is pretty much sold on 9 to 10 gpp.

By the way, if you want more weight, then look at gpi before anything else to build heavy arrows. You can find heavy gpi weights in about any spine.

Yes, as stated, hunting is why. 3D/target it does not matter and flatter would be better I would assume. Not a target archer.

I still have never seen a bow shoot a 10 grain per pound 200 fps

Just found this pic from last summer. Thought I'd stir the pot. 7.3 or 7.6 GPP. I get in the mid 190's with 10gpp 27" draw. On hooks

Speed isn’t everything!!!

[[[ Jimmyjumpup said: "I still have never seen a bow shoot a 10 grain per pound 200 fps" ]]]

Yes you have, and not long ago.

60# @ 28" with a 600 grain arrow.

I did the test just for you too. :-)

Rick

I'm still impressed.

Actually, it was 60.5# @ 28" with a 605 grain arrow.

Four shot string average was 204.9 fps.

Rick

While the pot is stirring has anyone actually seen a bow break from using lighter than recommended weight arrows? I watch this guy on YouTube from Germany shooting 100#+ recurves with arrows in the 6.5 gpp range. One bow was a Shrew @100#’s pull. He an’it dead yet.

At what point are you doing damage to the bow?

"At what point are you doing damage to the bow?".....when you get around 5 grs. per pound.

I don't, I shoot 8.5 gpp at 40# and get 207 fps.

i dont. 10 is silly. i shoot 12gpp+ :)

Hexx like

Come on Rooty

you pot stirrer. Lol :)

I stand corrected Rick. Your bow is the only one I have ever seen.

Because my bows tell me ,, not that I don’t already know, let the bow tell ya, it’s that simple, all that speed from a soda straw doesn’t impress me at all, any bow can do that with a lightweight, but hey if ya want a noisy bow and probably blow it up later go ahead, it’s ur money (he he)

[[[ "I stand corrected Rick. Your bow is the only one I have ever seen." ]]]

I was hoping you would remember, because I did all that work just for you. :-)

Rick

I'm at 13.6 gpp and don't care about speed

Black swan archery has IBO numbers on their website, pretty sure that is 5 gpp at 70pounds and 30 inch draw

#40 14gpp

Because I can't hit anything past 20 yards...

I like to be between 9 & 10 somewhere.

Currently at 9.23, for 600 grains.

I like it. :-)

Rick

Because I like it. Actually when I make up my wood arrows they usually average about 10.5. I'm shooting 49# now and it makes a good flying quiet arrow with acceptable trajectory.

…now do momentum :)

Being from New Brunswick, Rooty’s numbers could be in units of furlongs per fortnight. If I had emojis I’d put a smiling angel right here.

I was hunting with 15.26 grains per pound this last season. 45lb Black Widow and 687 grain arrows. My 48 pound Northern Mist longbow likes them also. And as of lately, I have shot the same arrows out of a 50lb and a 55lb bear TD, and they shoot just fine. Although I am sure, that those arrows are not exactly tuned for any of those bows.

Those heavy arrows were tuned for that 45# BW, and I did hit one deer in the shoulder, heavy bone. And I have to admit it was a bad shot, but I did eventually find the deer, I don't know, but I suspect a lighter arrow, would not have gotten the penetration needed and I would have lost the deer. I just suspect that the added speed would not have made up for the loss of arrow weight in this case, if I had been using a light arrow. But of course, how do you know for sure? I guess 55lbs would divide out to about 12.49 grains per pound of draw weight.

I do think in the future, I will drop down to about 12 grains per pound, somewhere in that range. 10 gpp would be my bare minimum for hunting, in my opinion. However, I am sure, lots of big game have been taken with lighter arrows and not much FOC either.

Out of curiosity, I just went and weighed one of my old Aluminum Easton hunting arrows, I used to use years ago with a 60# Martin Hatfield TD bow, and it weighed about 550 grains with a Bear Razorhead. That's 9.16 grains per pound of draw weight. The only reason that arrow flew decently out of that 60# bow was because I used lots of feather. But I have to admit, it killed deer for me, just fine, and I got good penetration out of it, even when bone was hit. But I do give some credit to the fact, that I was shooting 60 pounds, and I believe that was part of the reason it did pretty good for me. But, when I was using that bow, I was happily ignorant about arrow tuning, grains per pound, etc. All I knew was use lots of feather to get the arrow flying pretty good and a file sharpened broadhead.

My tunes well with heavy arrows. It’s also easier on my bows. Speed is nice, accuracy is what Im after with well tuned equipment. If you’re happy with what you’re doing—that’s good.

I think someone said Fred Bear recommended 9 or 10 grains per pound of bow weight. And correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he shot bows in the 65 pound range, most of the time. 65 x 9 would be 585 grains, and 65 pounds x 10 would have been 650 grains.

If that's the case, he shot a fairly heavy arrow, because he shot a heavy bow. My only point being, he shot a fairly heavy arrow, at decent speed, a deadly combination.

When going to lighter bows, like many use now, lets say 40 to 45 lbs, I know trajectory suffers a little, but would it not make sense to maybe go up just a little in grains per pound to aid in penetration for actual hunting?

215 fps is impressive for sure.

As far as your question "why shoot 10gpp" I got a whole wall full of reasons (literally)

doubt any of them would have been any deader at 215 fps though.

I've always wanted to be around 9 to 10 on a recurve, and depending on the bow. Only reason I don't shoot lighter for hunting is due to noise n feel. Been a lot of game killed with less than 10 grains

I shoot what ever weight the arrow comes out to with the heavy spines and broadhead I prefer to shoot.(630-900 grains TAW) Plus I don't like the critter running of and breaking my arrows, just pick them up from the off side of where the animal was standing when I shot it. Usually, don't have to look more than 15 yards or so.

Simply because I like quiet over speed. Really don't like the harsh "twang" of very light arrows coming off the string.

I guess if you're a target archer the flatter trajectory of a faster bow would be beneficial. I, however, like the way a heavier arrow shoots. Smoother, quieter, and tends to drive deeper into my target block...at the cost of somewhat hefty drop beyond 25 yards. I don't take real shots at those distances anyway.

Rick, it seems people on here believe you can't have speed and penetration (?). With our modern equipment it is not that hard to have both. Sure it takes some work but maybe that is the bottom line (?).

Light fast arrows and heavy slow arrows have probably both taken their share of game by a competent bowhunter. Shoot whatever works best for you and your bow. My arrows are on the heavy side because in my opinion and experience they are quieter and reduce any handshock a bow may have. Others may have a different opinion and preference.

"Why would you shoot 10gpp?"

I like to get this and very short, ample blood trails. I also know that you can get penetration with lighter and faster arrows if you know what you're doing. This is just what works for me and the game I hunt.

Shoot what you like and have fun.

Yep. What Supernaut said. Been doing it for decades. 10 gpp trajectory is programmed into my sub. Ten and 60+ blows through deer-sized and smaller game out to 30 yards... with straight standing selfbows.

Simply put, ten makes meat.

Nonsense Jim here is a picture of what you want!

Not every bow fits the 10 GPP @ 28". Get out of the box and look around.

"Shoot what you like and have fun."

I've never thought inside a box and I've looked around and I found what works for me and what I like. I hope everyone can find that satisfaction.

Don't start Rooty. We could play number and word games too. We know how it works. And we don't need your form of 'enlightenment'.

Rooty just gave everyone a good opportunity to dredge up the energy vs momentum argument. Where's my popcorn.

don't know what my old 2219 eastons were but i shot them from a 60# herters takedown. had purty good penetration with that set up.

Rooty, your numbers in that table make sense. I wouldn’t sit in front of that 400gr arrow shot with 215fps and sharp broadhead on the business end.

After reading all the posts, I've decided not to shoot at all.. Just sounds way to dangerous..

My son in law’s got my arrow scale. He probably thinks it looks better in his man cave than it does in mine. Glad I read this post.

Physics tells me a light object will shed its energy fast on impact where a heavy object will retain its energy on impact, momentum. I like to be at the point of still enough speed but having the weight to hold the energy to push through if bone is hit. This always seems to be around 10gpp +/- from what I have found in the selection software.

10gpp is ideal arrow weight for overall performance.

Bluesman, the vast majority of us hunt whitetails. There are no heavy ribs on whitetails. Now for elk and, maybe moose, or dangerous game I'd want as heavy an arrow as I could handle. But I'm stuck with whitetails and squirrels.

I'm shooting 40-42# now, have dozens of arrows and find it hard to stay down to 10gpp with what I have. I'm not going to redo all my arrows for one or two gpp less.

Back in the good old days we would walk in to an archery shop, buy six or twelve arrows and never pay attention to the weight. I'm pretty sure the MicroFlites I used back then were 12 or more gpp. Never fazed us and lots of animals were killed.

haha ROOTY why 10? it beats 27gpp. Most of mine seem to be 8 or 8.5-9gpp.

Bluesman, A discussion like this gets mired in minutiae unless we're talking about large or dangerous game. I have never selected a bow or built an arrow with kinetic energy or momentum in mind. I find what I want to use and the rest is what it is.

I'm not sure what you consider light arrows but 8 or 9 gpp isn't really light. And, at hunting distances, I believe that their increased speed more than offsets their lower weight. Longer ranges flip the equation as speed sheds more quickly from the lighter arrow but that is beyond 20-30 yards.

I know a 35# bow can put the right arrow through a deer's chest even if a rib is hit. So I'm sure a 45# bow would be far more than enough. To me accuracy, arrow flight and the broadhead are far more important than KE or momentum.

There is not only a logical but a historical reason to use an arrow between 9-11 gpp.

I'm far from a scientific guru but I stay in the 8gpp to 10gpp range, and it hasn't let me down as far as penetration. I feel the old timers like Fred Bear and some others were right. JMO

Arrow weight is directly connected to bow weight. Like you said - "...as practical for the bow being used."

"as practical" opens a can of worms. Who gets to define practical?

Say I hunt out west and want a flatter trajectory. that's different criteria than the northeast hardwoods. And surely you'll admit there is a different momentum needed on squirrels vs moose.

For targets, I want speed for flatness. Hunting, I expect it to pass thru into the ground or beyond. Thats why...

All that matters is that you're good with it.

10 GPP sounds just right for big game hunting.

Well I much prefer a heavy arrow myself..this was made clear to me from an experience I had some years back.. I was out doing a bit of whaling with Ahab on the old Pequod..I had brought along my light 100lb longbow in hopes of nailing a seal or two. Well our harpooner..Queequeg had gotten a harpoon into a smallish Humpback and I talked Ahab into letting me have a shot at it just to see what an arrow could do..well I hit him a little high from the deck..but when we got him aboard and cut up..I found my two blade 3_1:ratio head sticking out of a vertebrae.. I've been using two blade zwickeys ever since... Top that one..fireman.

Codjigger

Ishmael is that you?

Because over 10 gets slow and under 10 gets loud. I've had bows that were outliers on both ends. But it's easier to shoot multiple bows if they have similar trajectories. So I hang around the 9 to 10 range.

I think in the future, I am going to probably strive for around 11 to 12 grains per pound, judging by all of the different bows and bow draw weights I have been fooling around with, lately.

My bows seem to shoot about the best, with still yet, decent trajectory, at about 12 grains per pound. I would however, lighten that up, for 3D competition if that was my game.

bluesman, just so I understand, what would be a light arrow to you?

I use this arrow in a bare bow with 50 yards point on. 290 grain arrow. I ran it through a 40#@27" just cuz.

BB was 35#@27

I shoot 10 grains per pound because it works for ME! And has for eons hunting critters all over this continent. Blow through deer with a 45lb bow and have for years lately. Now IF I was hunting elk or Moose I may have to think about it more. But those days have long since gone for me.

For 3D I shot 205 fps and it sounded like a .22 rifle when I shot. It takes a very light arrow to get those speeds so you are essentially dry firing your bow. It's loud. Thus, not ideal for hunting.

I am not a super heavy arrow weight guy. I am usually between 450-500 grains, but that is 10gpp for me.

We are forced to balance speed and weight - can't be too slow or we increase risk and we can't be too light or we increase risk.

Guys -

Just a thought...

Why would a "lighter" arrow be noisier than a "heavier" arrow? Think about it, a drawn bow has a certain amount of potential energy stored in its limbs. On release, that potential energy is turned into kinetic energy moving the arrow forward. Any energy that can't be transferred from the limb to the arrow becomes "noise" or vibration or something else we generally don't like.

That implies that the arrow is so light that there is enough excess energy to make the noise.

While I'm sure you can come up with a combination where that might be the case, I'm pretty sure you'd have to go pretty far out of your way to do it. (Like using a really light arrowss than 5 gpp.)

Some bows, especially competition rigs, are designed for primarily for (torsional) stability and speed a distant second. Sound isn't a factor.

Also remember that as you increase arrow weight, you also stiffen it's dynamic spine. So, a 500 grain 500 spine arrow might not take the same tune as a 400 grain 500 spine arrow. Just saying that arrow weight and speed aren't always mutually exclusive. It limb acceleration that determines the spine requirment and the number of pounds your holding.

I shoot both "light" and medium weight arrows (7 ggp - 10 gpp) from my target rigs, and gotta tell ya, the loudness ain't all that different.

Just do whatever you're comfortable with, because IMHO anyway, 9/10 times, it's just not going to matter.

Viper out.

I'm shooting 46 1/2# , arrows weigh in at 510g. Just worked out that way.. I am always preparing for hunting and hunting shots when practicing.. Never saw the sense in changing to a lighter arrow for 3d or other shoots. My arrow trajectory is burned into my brain, like said above..

Over the years I've tried to "standardize" my arrows, otherwise I'd end up with even more dozens than I have. In carbons I shoot mostly Easton Legacy, GoltTip Traditionals, and Big Jim's Dark Timbers. Years ago I shot 400 spine but, over time, I've dropped to 600s. With aluminums I'm now shooting 1916 and 1816.

I agree with those that say you have to go real low in gpp to have an increase in noise, lower than is practical for hunting. Noise that I've encountered has to do with several factors but arrow weight isn't one of them.

I would trade a little weight for more speed but I'm now shooting 38-40# bows and that draw weight I find it impossible to get below 10gpp even if I want to. As I have them set up, the Legacy arrows are 410 grains and GTs are 431. 1816s are also 431 grains.

Not loud at all. Here's 9.8 GPP at 27"

Sorry wrong pic

More work to do but in the zone

Because unlike a compound bow stick bows are less efficient per pound of draw weight. To compensate for that you need to add arrow weight. Do the math.

Speed is second to momentum and sound. 10 ggp equals momentum down range and a quiet bow.

Tony - I don't know other than perhaps it's the resistance due to mass weight or something along those lines.

Let's try this logic: 1) Go record yourself dry firing your bow.

2) Record yourself shooting an arrow that weighs 700g.

Now, compare the two. Every arrow between 1g and 700g will fall somewhere in between.

If you are a one bow shooter like I usually am you need to fall somewhere in between. Enough weight for penetration and enough speed to make sure the deer is there when the arrow gets there. 3D and hunting are two different games where penetration is concerned. Sure guys want that fast arrow to shoot 30 yards but it is not needed at 10 yards. I shot two bucks 6 months after shoulder surgery with a 38 lb bow. Neither arrow was a pass thru. With my normal 52 pound bow they would have been. I keep my shots close so the 38 lb bow worked for me in that situation. I do understand though why guys shoot two different rigs. For me I would rather shoot and know my hunting bow even if it means more difficulty and 30 yards

"If you are a one bow shooter", I don't even know what that means. Insert smiley face here.

Speed is a factor in kinetic energy. Try Easton's calculator on such.

Yes, speed is a factor in the equation to derive kinetic energy.

Kinetic energy is applicable mainly in ballistics.

I’ll stick to what has worked for me for over 50 years. Don’t care what anyone else does.

Jimmy -

What about shooting a bow with a tuned 700 grain arrow and then with a tuned 350 grain arrow? The quality of the sound "might" change, but the decibels? That's a kinda/sorta thing. I don't believe that the sound volume is linear - but no, I've never personally tested that to that degree.

Sorry, the dry fire thing doesn't hold water since in that case the stored energy has no where to go, but sound and vibration.

Look, I don't hunt, but shooting a bow that sounds like a car door slamming shut doesn't make for a fun afternoon.

Viper out.

When string walking you are commonly shooting out of tune, so you get more noise.

375 grain total out of my 40 #bob lee,razor sharp bear greenies gets it done every time..just saying

When string walking you are commonly shooting out of tune, so you get more noise

Put string silencers on the rig and you will have a quiet arrow - how it flies is another issue. You are inventing an argument right not, omitting this reality: the string is not empty with “hunting weight arrow”.

“Now” not “not”

Tony, I’ve shot a 7.2gpp arrow next to my cell using a Db app: 68Db. I’ve shot an ASL 11gpp for 51. So there is a 17DB to share between designs and arrow weights. Both rigs had no string silencers. The sound of a bow and arrow combo can be manipulated in a way that I doubt there will be more than 5Db between a lite vs heavy arrow when the tuning for sound is done. And 5Db is more “a thing” for the shooter than the animal. As long as the sound sounds “natural” in the environment iI really believe the 5Db doesn’t count.

Bluesman, Different bows make different sounds depending on design, brace height, string material, limbs…..And I agree it’s easy to tell a noisy bow from a quieter bow. But there are so many variables involved that I don’t see how anyone could tell an 8 gpp arrow vs a 12 gpp arrow being shot from the same bow.

I shoot what I shoot. Which works out to 11.9 GPP. I get full penetration on whitetail and from treestands have even had some collapse and die as they turned to look at the noise the arrow made when it hit the ground behind them.

Sharp (non-mechanical) broadhead trumps speed.

Velocity is nice, but accuracy also trumps speed.

Personally, I want an enterance hole and an exit hole. More blood loss for tracking. When necessary.

mostly why i don't use less than 10gpp, is because i cannot make carbon or aluminum.

Oh i have already, and they work great.

But i do like making my own stuff, bows, arrow shafts etc...They work great as well, even if they are over 10gpp.

i figure the archer has more to do with the outcome than how much his arrows weigh.

but it's good stuff to debate about if your so inclined.

Winners win and loosers lose.. if it takes changing your equipment to win, than you probably aren't really a winner in the first place. The only possibly scenario that I could think of where speed is an advantage would be 30 yard and plus target shooting.

I am fully convinced that full animal penetration is more a product of shot placement than anything else. Think about it... We routinely read about so and so getting complete pass through on whatever with 30, 35, 40 and more lb bows. Yet many of us experience less than that on weights that exceed 60lbs myself included.

Had a customer contact me about building him a 110 lb bow for hunting.. he only shoots the heavy stuff because he enjoys the "blow through" almost every time! He shoots fiberglass fish arrows and still doesn't pass through every time!? What would it take? 200lb bow with schedule 40 pipe for arrows? or maybe just pick a better spot and shoot more accurately? Me think so.

At the end of the day, I don't really mind what you chose to shoot except that you are corrupting the newbies that like to read too much and think that many of you actually know what you are talking about. I am tasked with fixing the frustration this causes. Why can't ya'll just be happy? LOL BigJim

BigJim X2.

U tell them jim

OMG JIM you are Absolutely right!'

BigJim X3

Excellent post.

I don’t shoot 10 gr per pound, mostly less and sometimes more, it depends on the bow and what it likes. Speed is accuracy as long as there’s gravity, deer can’t always duck a fast arrow, or hear you breathe 8 yards away. The guys that can tell a fast bow from a slow bow from 100 yards away, can’t seem to hear you tell them what range to shoot..makes me wonder if it’s their imagination?

Ole Fred settled this debate (for me) many years ago.

I tried hard to disprove him, but in the end his between/from 9 - 10 gpp proved to be the best all around arrow weight for me.

Key words being: "For Me".

Rick

For hunters there is no way to quiet a feather-fletched arrow to the point that a deer won't hear it. Doesn't matter how heavy you go. Parabolic is quieter than shield but all feathers make noise. And why wouldn't everyone shoot vanes instead of feathers? It is well-known that vanes are quieter.

Possibly of more interest is what a deer sees as the arrow is coming towards it. I believe it was Gene Wensel that mentioned playing around with his brother at one time and standing by a tree as his brother shot an arrow past him. He said large helical feathers are very visible in the shape of a ball coming toward the target. Straight fletch was not so visible.

If we are striving for nearly absolute quiet there are more ingredients than just arrow gpp.

And I agree with Rick - Fred Bear answered this question a long time ago.

I mentioned it on my first post (on 7 Feb 24) that Fred Bear figured it out and was right a long time ago. I try to stick as close to 9gpp as possible on all my bows.

Fred Bear answered many questions years ago.

Big Jim for the win.

"Because a deer can move even before a 350 ft per second arrow arrives... I prefer silent but deadly.

"And this thread is about arrow weight. It's not the flight noise. Or what a deer sees ."

You can't have it both ways. You want quiet like you said here? "I think it's safe to say any tiny bit of quiet helps ... "

That isn't one thing. It's a combination of things from the bow setup to the limbs to the string... Quiet doesn't just depend on arrow weight.

In fact - Arrow weight is the least important factor in quieting a bow. "Heavy arrows quiet down a bow at the release." That is simply not true.

But all that aside, I'm in total agreement that you should shoot what you are comfortable with and have confidence in.

The reason I keep going on about this is because there are lots of folks that visit here but don't post and it would be a shame if some of them believed that 'the consensus" is that people need a heavy arrow for hunting because you keep saying it. The fact is you don't need a heavy arrow. 9 to 10 grains is sufficient for almost all game. If anyone wants more weight that's fine but it's not a requirement.

Yes

Where is the cut off for heavy and light?

I asked a similar question but didn't get an answer so I'll offer my thoughts.

9 to 11 gpp is widely accepted as the desired arrow weight. So to me weights 8 or less is progressively lighter and, when people talk about heavy arrows, it means to me they are 12 gpp or higher.

I may be repeating myself, but when I find a broadhead arrow combo for my bow setup, it always seems to come in at that 10 gpp mark no matter what. Sometimes it is 9.? or 11.? but it seems to always hit that. So 9-11 cutt offs? I agree. I will go for the heavier because of bone. I don't try or want to hit bone, but there are a lot of bones on a critter.

Big Jim, last paragraph. Nailed it. “ and think that many of you know what you’re talking about “. Ask for photographs from some of these know-it-alls and watch the crickets come out and sing.

100% Dendy.

When I ask for pic to prove a hunters prowess I get called everything but a milk cow

Jack I can fix that, you sir are a dadgum milk cow!

Unless I missed it, arrow material hasn't been mentioned. I have shot through a lot more deer over the years, regardless of weight, with carbon vs. wood. Wood seems much harder to drive through a deer.

Aluminum works fine too, especially the smaller diameters.

bluesman said "The other thing that should be mentioned is Fred BEAR used a 65# bow and even at 9 gpp that's a 585 grain arrow , which is not a "light" arrow . I also believe back then most the guys he hunted with were using heavier bows . I could be wrong on that but I believe in the 50's those guys on the little delta were using bows in heavier weights than most now adays. And I also believe once you go below 50 lbs a heavier gpp is a good idea."

That's what I have said. Fred Bear and many others in the past, shot overall, heavier bows, than a lot of people do today. I believe he shot 65 pounds a lot, and if he went 10gpp, that's 650 grains! That's essentially an Ed Ashby class arrow.

Anyway, I have been shooting in practice with my 35# and 43# bows, a 585 grain arrow and it shoots just fine and plenty flat enough. No need to go lighter than that, unless maybe 3D competition.

lol Jed

WOW! I’m shocked, SHOCKED, that a GPP post generated this much angst and disagreement - and this is on a post that most seem to be in agreement. LOL We haven’t even heard from the faster is better crowd yet…

Interestingly the first post was actually about speed, even though Rooty mentioned gpp and we went right past that discussion to weight.

And I agree that most of us do agree. The disconnect for me is that I don’t consider 10 gpp heavy, I consider it normal weight. It may well be that some folks consider 10 heavy and it seems that’s where semantics took it off the rails.

I assumed that since he was posting chrono results, that even though he mentioned gpp, he was more interested in the speed gain using lower gpp arrows out of the same bow. For all intents and purposes, the speed gain going from 10 gpp to 7.5 gpp isn't going to be enough to keep an animal from moving at the shot, and is not going to yield trajectory gains or the most common shot distances, may yield more wear and tear on the bow, and in some circumstances could cause less penetration all things being equal. That being said, I really don't care what others do, and don't really get too picky about what gpp i am using most of the time.

Has anyone ever in their life, just for a split second, sat in the woods all alone so no-one could potentially read their thoughts, or lay in bed at night with the lights off and the covers over their head so none could possibly detect their blasphemy and thought to themselves - What if Fred Bear wasn't perfect?

Just wondering for a friend.

Because I do not like the 250 grain arrows sticking out of the deer. 65 pound bow, 630 grain arrows I use. Today modern bowhunters can go to......and shoot lmbtq arrows.

[[[ "What if Fred Bear wasn't perfect?" ]]]

Well, there is that. :-)

He most assuredly was not.

Then again, neither are any of the rest of us. :-)

Rick

Anyone ever read and think about the tale of Echo and Narcissus?

Wondering for myself.

yep - Ovid's Metamorphoses - forced to fall in love with his own image.

Wasted away and died staring at his own reflection in the pool. Nemesis's curse.

Cupid was busy shooting 9-10 gpp like Fred Bear and getting pass throughs.

I've followed the thread closely. We've trod a winding road with this old debate, but I'm not connecting narcissism to the gpp debate. Now, I'll admit that I am a product of Georgia public education, so I've never claimed to be super fast. Are you referring to the closed-mindedness of many? I actually often think troglodyte when I read comments here, but in this case there are a lot of folks that I think simply prefer heavier arrows vs. think that's the only way to success. To claim you must shoot a heavy arrow was not be ignorant, it would be stupid (by definition) because half the people in this very thread could prove it wrong.

I like 10gpp personally. It's a nice balance, tunes nicely, and seems to just shoot well for me, but I readily admit that you can kill with much lighter and heavier. I hunted one year with a 450g arrow and killed 9 deer.

I threw the Fred Bear comment out above because some folks seem to think that if Fred did anything it's just automatically right, as if he was free from mistakes. Fred because famous, but like all of us he learned as he went and made plenty of mistakes. Blind faith would be naive.

I understand that. I just think that within reason, it rarely matters what gpp we choose ton shoot regarding hunting outcomes. No clear winners , with some mild trade offs whatever you choose .

There is no connection unless you take it that way.

I could probably live in a cave if I had to but I doubt my wife would join me.

I don't care what anyone shoots and hunts with, have at it. I know what works for me and it happens to be 10gpp give or take. I've done my own testing and I listen to and follow the advice of successful hunters that have done it.

I think you threw the Fred Bear comment out there to get a rise out of people and draw some attention to yourself. I really doubt anyone here (even if they are a troglodyte) is dumb enough to believe that Fred Bear or anyone else was mistake free.

No telling how many deer have been killed using arrows in the 8 to 10 grains per pound category. When I've shot more mild reflex reflex longbows I would go heavier but it's not necessary. I've seen guys complain about noise on a recurve...unwilling to play with the brace height or adjusting silencers,ect. If your bow is noisy using 9 grains per pound shafts, you probably have other tuning problems.

I've worked very hard to get a tunable arrow down from 650gr to 600gr.

That would have been 9.23 gpp if I was still shooting 65# at my draw, but I've lost an inch of draw, so since the bow is now 63# at my draw, I'm looking at 9.52 gpp.

The arrows are fast, hit like a freight train, the bow is acceptably quiet, and the arrows are very quiet in flight.

Nothing not to like about that. :-)

Rick

Rick, you are revealing another point: the draw weight of the bow will determine the arrow someone will be comfortable to shoot with. One thing is to shoot a 9-9.5gpp arrow around 600gr total from a Super Curve at #62 on fingers and another thing is the 10gpp arrow from a #40 on fingers conventional bow.

Well, 12 posts in Rooty admitted stirring the pot, but here we are...lol I remember similar debates years ago about people advocating for leaving the arrow inside the animal because of the damage done as it runs off.. accuracy and well tuned arrows aside, I believe more energy should be spent on getting close to animals, well positioned ambush spots, body language, and blood trailing...jmo

You're right supernaut I really need some some attention from the LW folks.

But seriously, I see him referenced all the time as if everything he did was the standard. I'm sure Fred would have liked a few do overs. Not sure why you would think that puts attention on me.

"But seriously, I see him referenced all the time as if everything he did was the standard. I'm sure Fred would have liked a few do overs. Not sure why you would think that puts attention on me."

Keep casting.

Fred was a good businessman and genius when it came to developing bows and marketing them but if someone did many of the things Fred did today they would be far from revered.

True it was at a time when bowhunting was just beginning but the distances he took shots, the pod, taking very risky shots would have all been condemned today. In the movie, The Oldest Game, there is a segment where Fred and Charlie shoot at a cardboard deer target. The narrator says they go back about 30 yards because that is the average distance game is killed. How many people here agree with that?

That said, there are a lot of things that, over time, he got right.

Jimmy makes a good point. It's not like Fred had a fully equipped lab with large budget and all day to play.......

Elon Musk has unlimited resources and fails all the time.

Supernaut I knew you were referring to me in your original post, why not just say it vs. playing coy?

Jimmy, I wasn't playing coy. I knew you were smart enough to figure it out.

If the shoe fits and all that.

I'm not for everyone and I'm okay with that. I tell business leaders all the time, "If no one has ever told you, let me be the first to do so. Not everyone likes you. And no matter what you do, everyone will never like you."

Let's carry on with hunting with a straw or a telephone pole.

I'll shoot 2 fletch before I ever shoot 10 GPP again.

Lol now this is interesting. Please continue.

Elon is no Jimmy but at least he's trying.

sporty morning. LOL. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. Shoot what you like. Hopefully, it works out for you.

I concur and posted a similar message in this thread back on the 6th:

" "Why would you shoot 10gpp?"

I like to get this and very short, ample blood trails. I also know that you can get penetration with lighter and faster arrows if you know what you're doing. This is just what works for me and the game I hunt.

Shoot what you like and have fun."

I usually try to keep my inner "troglodyte" on a short leash but sometimes..."sporty" it is.

LOL. All good here, Supernaut. I am one of those guys that cares not what others use. I have an opinion, but I actually never force it on others. Their archery is theirs alone. And for some I say, you have the right to suck if you really want to.

Why shoot 10gpp when you can shoot 12 and even 14gpp. Hit em hard on the blind side I say.

Here in Michigan, shooting a deer with anything less than 10 would just bounce off ...

I am no expert but it seems to me that it would be hard to get a carbon arrow to weigh 10 grains per pound without adding weight to the front end. I also have noticed I have killed all of the animals I have shot no matter what the arrow material when I shoot the animal in the vitals.

Everybody sucks sometime Jimmy.

Yes they do Jimmyjumpup, including me. We're all subject to sucking. LOL.

I mean those that have a closed mind to certain things. There are better ways of doing things that some people will not open their minds to. Ie. I know people that gap shoot but still insist on shooting split finger. It's insane. I can explain the science all day, but they are stubborn and won't listen, so they are entitled to shoot less than their potential. Just an example of what I mean for context.

Heavy Metal - you go boy. Why drop a ping pong ball on their head when you can drop a bowling ball right?

Sure sounds like hunting season is over for most of us, lol.

That's an understatement pdk25. ;-). I keep dropping in and out and it's lively for sure. All good though. I just went out and had an amazing practice round. Life is good.

I know guys that shoot great split finger and instinctive. Ole Paul Schafer wasn’t bad. If I was just interested in being the best shot I could I’d shot a compound or crossbow

I know guys that shoot great split finger and instinctive. Ole Paul Schafer wasn’t bad. If I was just interested in being the best shot I could I’d shot a compound or crossbow

I know that footed, tapered wood arrows @630-660 grains from my 63- 66# bows blow right through almost anything I shoot at. Have some 875-900 grain tapered arrows for my 68-71# bows. Penetration is not an issue. Quiet kills not speed, even though I'm getting some respectable fps.

“ . If I was just interested in being the best shot I could I’d shot a compound or crossbow” That’s just if you compare yourself with you as stick and string shooter. Otherwise, this is one of the traditional archery fallacies. To become the best shot you can be might fall a lot shorter than you think when comparing with top

Oh I know I am not a great shot. I’m adequate. I can kill animals with my recurve. That’s all I am interested in. I can put arrows in the vitals of a 3 D deer at 10 yards with anyone in the world. Lol.

Oh I know I am not a great shot. I’m adequate. I can kill animals with my recurve. That’s all I am interested in. I can put arrows in the vitals of a 3 D deer at 10 yards with anyone in the world. Lol.

Gents -

When people have diametrically opposed opinions that yield equal results, only one conclusion can be drawn.

Viper out.

Why not?

Jimmyjumpup - please read my post again. I didn't say anything was wrong with split finger and instinctive. I said split finger yet gap shoot. There is a reason I used that specific example.

Please read my post again People that gap but still insist on shooting split finger! ITS INSANE So what did we read WRONG!!!!

I said split finger yet gap shoot. There is a reason I used that specific example.

This might have sense for you, but shooting an ASL split finger and gapping is not as insane as you think. I can change from 3under shooting recurve to split finger shooting ASL and keep the gaps almost similar - I am actually making the combo bow and arrow to fit this.

Why not shoot 10 GPP when you can get shots at deer under 20 yards?

It's the very first time I've opened this thread and it was for the sole reason of wondering why, in the year of our Lord 2024, another GPP post would garner 175 responses. I should've known better. Frisky's "Hunting Diaries" had a way better "wheat to chafe" ratio. And were way more amusing for that matter!

Gutpilepa - Jimmyjump gave an example of a good shooter that shoots split finger instinctive. That's not what I said, she he misunderstood. It's not that hard.

To optimize gap shooting, you want the eye to target and arrow to target line to be as close as possible. This reduces error. Split finger increases the gap or difference in the two lines. Actually, when shooting instinctive it makes it much harder for the brain to calculate as well, but I didn't want to go there with this crowd, so I left that alone.

The closer the arrow is to the eye the smaller the gap. It's that simple. It reduces your likelihood of error. Thus, shooting three under is most beneficial.

It would be like saying, "I want to go to the track and run the fastest 400m I can, but I think I'll wear boots." It's illogical.

Break:

"If I was just interested in being the best shot I could I’d shot a compound or crossbow” This statement is ridiculous to me. So, you don't want to shoot as good as you possibly can with the bow and arrow you are shooting? If you hunt, I think you have a moral obligation to be the best you can be. If you are shooting the wood fence in your back yard go for it, but shooting animals changes the equation.

What??????

Trust me Jimmy I can kill deer at 10-15 yards. Hunting is about getting close. I think if you gap shoot you may need to know the distance. I don’t wan t to mess with that.

Ok Jimmy I agree that if you are going to gap then it may be better to shoot 3 under. I misunderstand

Ok Jimmy I agree that if you are going to gap then it may be better to shoot 3 under. I misunderstand

What does 3 under vs split finger have to do with gpp of draw weight?

Of course, the lighter arrow would reduce the gap if you were a gap shooter.

After a failed hunt ..my ancestors decided to use 10 gr Arrows! Codjigger

Mine just stampeded bison off of cliffs, where the only "gap" that mattered was the one between the top of the cliff and the bottom. The bigger the gap the bigger the pile, and the greater the likelihood that no pissed-off survivors would get up and gore you to death!

Anyone read up an Otzi's arrow weight? lol

So the conversation has changed but it still brings up some valid points.

JR, hunting is not about getting close. Hunting is about killing an animal with a well-placed shot, no matter the weapon. It is true that some folks need to get close because that's as far as they can shoot accurately. And, as bowhunters, that is because we've been groomed to settle for that excuse.

When I started bowhunting it was widely accepted that thirty yards was not too far to shoot. In one of Fred Bear's movies - The Oldest Game - in a scene where Charlie and Fred are shooting at a cardboard deer target the narrator said they went back about thirty yards because that is the average distance game is killed. Average means some animals are killed at shorter and some are killed at longer distances than thirty yards.

It makes perfect sense that if a person has good form and technique there is every reason to expect that if they can hit a deer at ten yards they can hit one at thirty. If not then they should work to improve their skill. Mostly because if 10-12 yards is the limit of their range, they are a marginal shot at best. We're talking about hitting an area the size of a basketball. And if they can't hit a basketball at thirty yards they need to improve their technique and form.

There is a practical limit to how far to shoot an an animal with a bow that depends on more than the archer's skill. Is the animal alert, relaxed, is it windy, are there any possible obstructions..... all come into play.

Now before folks get all riled up, there is absolutely nothing wrong with limiting shots to closer range. And I surely don't believe folks should be taking thirty yard shots unless they have confidence. But if a person has more than marginal skill with a bow then ten or thirty yards should not be a problem.

I agree with Phil. The last deer I shot was about 20-25 yards. I think shooting 3 D with compound shooters winter and summer from their stakes, made me a better shooter. As far as range goes, you can learn as much from the misses as well as the hits.

I strongly disagree about getting close. I believe you should get as close as possible for a bowshot, wheather it's a compound or trad bow.

There is nothing to disagree with. Getting as close as possible is a good thing.

I've always believed in practicing at longer distances than I plan to take a shot on an animal with. It makes you a better shot at longer distances, but more importantly, it makes those shots at 20 yards or less almost guaranteed. Almost.

Well at 30 yards some of these WV deer won’t be there when the arrow gets there. So for me since my effective range is 10-12 yards that’s the shot I wait for. That’s my best chance to kill a deer. I can probably hit my target at 30 yards with some practice but don’t feel confident those deer will cooperate at that distance. But that is just me. So I guess we agree

Our deer here are jumpy too. My equipment shoots just under 200 fps and is so quiet that deer never moved until the arrow passed completely through it. You tell me, what is not to like ? Jimmy, I have hunted W.Va., Ohio and Pa. for years they all drop at any unfamiliar sound. If I see a deer not like it is walking on egg shells, I was say there must be something wrong with that animal. Good discussion folks.

I have a video of my nephew killing a doe, with one of my Black Widows, 45#, around a 500 grain arrow, and the bow is pretty darned quiet. I would post the video, but I better not, without his permission.

Anyway, range was 30 yards, he is in a tree, about 12 to 14 feet up, I think. He aims fairly low on the deer, and it happens so fast, you have to play it several times to see it, but the deer drops, just before the arrow hits and he ends up hitting the deer in the spine. The deer drops so quick, you would have thought it was shot with a rifle in the spine but requires a finisher.

The deer seems to drop, pretty much a full body width. But the next deer shot at 30 yards, may not drop at all.

Late to the game!

What I have learned:

If you need heavy arrows to quiet a bow you have a tuning issue that you need to learn how to fix…I loath noisy bows, but my bows shooting 9 gpp are very quiet, without gobs of junk hung on the string…tuning is gold. Heavy arrows are a

If you want to have any hope of arrowing an elk on public land at timberline in Colorado you better have a dialled in 30 metre shot…or else you’re just observing wildlife! I know western and northern hunters read these threads and just shake their heads

If you want to hunt deer in Quebec you need to have a dialed in shot at 25 metres to get a licence…because you need to hit the kill zone of a 3D caribou in a practical test.

Rick B and Phil M comments make the most sense to me…I don’t have the luxury of seeing 20 deer a day come sashaying past my ground blind…if only! Then I could wait for one dense one to stop 10 yards away.

Because I can?

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