I was watching some European longbow competition, they made a reference to the American flat bow. All of the bow's we're glass bows. Does anyone understand what a American flat bow is?

Yes. It is well described in the book by Metz. Actually one of my favorite designs. A number of bowyers still make them Kohannah, Yellowstone and others.

Yellowstone makes a very nice one. But I also think a lot of British folk call any American version of a longbow a flatbow. They tend to believe anything other than an English longbow is not a true longbow. Just a matter of perspective I guess. I know we often argue about bow definitions here, particularly longbow definitions.

If you can find an Elburg Cherokee Flatbow, snatch it up. I had one and am still kicking myself for letting that little beauty get away. The core is wider and thinner than an ASL but not as wide or thin as a recurve. And they taper to a nice small tip making them very stable and difficult to torque. The Cherokee Flatbow had a forward handle design making it even more stable. They aren't made anymore so you'll have to keep your eyes peeled in the classifieds. About the closest thing you can find today is the Renegade Flatbow from Yellowstone. I've never held one but a lot of folks rave about them.

There is a definitive definition of the American Flatbow and it has defined proportions as well.

Edmund H. Burke shows how to make one in one of his books. It is as fdp said above. bvd

https://www.vintageprojects.com/sites/default/files/articles/Flatbo w-plans.pdf

This just got saved to the Favorite Threads. Thanks.

The definitions that Iisted are from the book by Metz.

The OP asked for a description, and that's what was provided.

You read them and make whatever determination you choose Thumper.

Your statement was that no one knows the definition, which is completely untrue. The proportions and description of the design are known, described, and written down.

Rassmussen made a nice flat bow that shot well. I owned 2 at one time. Flatter wider limbs

The term flatbow predates the more modern bow designs.

I wouldn't try to shoehorn an r/d into the definition.

Who gave definitions of bows that don't fit the description?

The fact is Thumper you are the o e who is coming across as a self proclaimed expert for not accepting the definition as described in the writing that popularized the term.

As was stated previously, make your own determination.

Spirit Longbows,,, John Strunk has a couple of examples on his site.

I have had a Yellowstone Renegade flatbow for three weeks of which I was gone on vacation for 11 days. I am far from being an expert but it is an easy, smooth ,quiet shooter. The forum member I bought it from has ordered another one only 5lbs heavier draw weight. I'd get another one in a heartbeat.

Fdp, the example you gave was exactly my understanding of a flat bow. The bows used in the competition looked more like the picture posted by SBC. I'm no bowyer but would have termed the bow pictured as a modern r/d longbow. That's what sparked my curiosity.

Jed most bow designs that we see referenced have historical descriptions of what they originally looked like and how they were proportioned.

Some folks want to know the information like you do, some don't or want to apply their own interpretation which is fine too for them.

Europeans refer to our longbows as flatbows. When we refer to flatbows here in the US we are usually referring to a wide limb, thin limb bow such as the Yellowstone Renegade.

The flat bow connotation as fdp shows an example of above, was arrived at over SIXTY years ago and accepted as such. bvd

From what I've read over the years, the term flatbow came about in the early 1900's as an American design with a rectangular cross section versus the deep belly of the ELB. After that, life got complicated.

This thread is a prime example of what happens when present day gurus choose to ignore or forget history. bvd

I've read up on the American Flatbow quite a bit in the past from books and articles in magazines. Those early descriptions by several authors pretty much go by what Metz detailed. The very first custom bows I ordered were Dick Robertson's version of a Flatbow called the Buffalo and Ed Bartwycks Shawnee Spirit Stalker.

For decades now, there have been many bowyers with their own version of the Flatbow, corrupted some might say, strayed away from the original design just like the ASL...or Hill style. I've also had a GN Bushbow and a couple of Elburg Cherokees. All of these are fine variations of the original American Flatbows imo.

And like said above, those good old blokes across the pond consider all our bows Flatbows...with the exception of recurves of course.

Hey Steve, how goes it? Still kicking yourself over that Cherokee? I got talked out of it by a budding selfbow fella that wanted to copy it. I'd like to have it back also. You know who to call if you come across anymore Elburgs bud!

Part of the problem is that the original flatbow definition was for a selfbow or simple laminated bow

It wasn't for glassed multi lams with the profile being manipulated.

Hey Joe! It's going good my friend. Hope all is well with you. Yep, something special about those Elburgs for sure. I actually may give a try and making my own Flatbow out of a nice board of Hickory. If I do, I'll let you know how it turns out. Wishing you the best!

Runner...you're right....most folks get that though.

As George stated...anything that is not an English Style longbow is an American Flatbow to Europeans.

For us, here in the US, a flatbow is a wide limb, thing core bow..as a Cherokee flatbow. You could also classify any non recurve bow that has wide limbs and thin core limbs as a flatbow.

Flatbow in America is of a difference description than a flatbow in Europe.

Steve all good here too. Best to you too bud! And definitely let me know if you get after that hickory bow.

P.S. we should keep those Elburg comments on how special they are private. Hush hush, can't let the cat outta the bag eh..;)) Hope nobody sees this...lol.

No rounded belly=Flat

If you need more than that...LOL

Hey dont feelbad about letting the Elburg Cherokee get away...I had Harry make a beautiful Cherokee w/red cedar under clear glass and now for the life of me dont know why I sold it to a local bowhunter who still loves it. Chalk it up to being young and trying out many different styles of bows and also tha fact that my younger days included kids and a pretty tight budget. Nice to hear that a few others have been down that road

Yep, what runner said about no glass original Flatbows should've been mentioned from the git.

Ottertails virtually all of the current types, styles, and profiles of "traditional" bows were originally made with no glass.

Of course they were, well most styles anyway. I was just agreeing with runner about Flatbows on a Flatbow thread.

Understood.

I think the mention from the OP that he was watching European archery and there was a mention of the “American Flatbow” should be noted. Europeans call D/R longbows American Flatbows. Over here an American Flatbow is a type of longbow styled after the plains Indians bows.They have a wider flatter limb than a typical longbow, that narrows to small tips. They are usually shorter, but not always. Originally made mostly from Osage the wider limb helped spread the stresses over a larger area allowing for a shorter bow. I’m pretty sure Europeans even called ASL’s American Flatbows. Compared w their English Lomgbows our longbows were “flat”. That’s my 2 cents anyway. JB French

Discounting native bows, the American flat bow was invented in the 1930s. They were easy to make a and had a definite formula to make them. A lot of cheap bows were made of lemon wood back then and that design was use alot. bvd

The Native American bows of the American west that I've seen in museums have all been short flat bows. Simple, probably easy to make with the simplest of stone tools. Light, handy, deadly. I'd bet very effective at short bow range. Not to mention incredibly beautiful.

Looks like thier is a Historical definition of a flatbow and ofcourse the flatbows used by Native Americans as well predating what is currantly called a Flatbow by modern Bowyers in thier lineup.

Almost all the bows being sold in the modern era and or more recently by bowyers are wide limbed and thinner in cross section.Most have a very mild reflex/deflex design and string into a D shape.

Many bowyers have offered that design whether you want to call it a Flatbow or not.Thats what they call it.How about modern Flatbow in regard to those styles made from more recent bowyers like Great Northern Bushbow,Northern Mist Huron,Elburg Cherokee,Dwyer Defiant,Rasmussen,Yellowstone Flatbow,Kohannah etc.

The modern flat bow of the 30s was just an updated version of the Eastern Native styles, not the West.

Off topic.

Fam went to Mesa Verde in 1997. There are selfbows and arrows in the Cliff Dwellings museum. (sw CO) I'm no scholar but I'd call them flatbows because that's what they looked like. Whatever. That timeless connection to ancient archers weapons before my eyes was/is incredible. :fist tap on heart:

I generally go by Hill's bow definitions.Simple and to the point.Years back Dick Robertson made a nice flatbow based on to his longbow design.Might still have the form in his shop?Quite a few self bow makers like them a lot.Jay Massey was a big fan of them.

Actually Bernie the bow the flatbow that Dick Robertson built was based on a bow that Jay Massey designed.

The Bingham long bow pretty much matches the definition. 68", 1.5" wide, rectangular cross section.

Bernie, bought a Robinson Buffalo ak flatbow back in the late 80s, had it for a year do to being had to keep a very solid shooting form or sensitive to wind or other variants to keep the arrow on point, one of the first longbow style bow that I bought.

That bow change a few hands, seen 3 different individuals own that bow over several years.

Owned several very good bows in the past, the Yellowstone Halfbreed was one.

In the primitive archery world of wood bows fdp in his post shows what is considered by all to be a flat bow design as opposed to say a pyramid bow design were the limbs are a straight taper from fades to tips. Most glass bows fit somewhere in between those 2 designs, and mods of all kinds depending on the CO. making them. Recurve semi recurve, straight limbed bow, string follow bows, deep hook bows etc. You have a wide variety to pick from in the glass bow world.

My wife had a North Wind reverse handle flat bow. It was light weight and I also enjoyed shooting it from time to time.

I believe this is an old Flatbow from the 40's. Currently under rehab. American archery co from Claridon Hill Ill. Ernie Root was co-founder before starting his own brand. I can decipher most of the stamped numbers..... but not all.

SK....not sure what it represents. M-13 clueless.

SK....not sure what it represents. M-13 clueless.

I think all bow designs evolve over time, the ASL us a good example I have HIll bows in my collection with no glass way before there was glass and ASL's with glass. There still ASL's.

Bob

That's a material change not a design change.

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