Here are some thoughts on instinctive shooting. I had a book written and Chuck Adams talked me out of it. He was probably right. I don’t know if it would sell many copies. Now days it’s a niche of us that use trad gear and less than that that shoot instinctively.
My biggest problem with books and videos I’ve seen tell you how that person shoots - how they draw, hold their head, bend their legs, etc. To my way of thinking there are basics - the proper hand position, the basics of good form and all that but we all develop our own method. It’s a personal style of shooting.
I always advise that you know your dominant eye and that guides whether or not you are left handed or right handed. You must have a bow that isn’t too stout - don’t over bow yourself. The rest and nok and all that needs to be set up correctly and your arrows the proper size.
So assuming you have decent form, your gear is properly tuned and set up- now you are ready to begin.
I start students off close range with large balloons. I like 3- d objects like balloons because the eye goes to them easier than a flat bullseye. Start close range with large or medium balloons. Gradually work your way back a few yards at a time. Always hitting the ballon. You can make the balloons smaller and shoot at various distances.
When you are good at this exercise then you are ready for the tennis ball. You can stick an arrow in the target and tie a string on the ball. Then standing at the target, randomly toss five arrows in the ground. With your back to the tennis ball, walk to the first arrow, turn around and fire an arrow at the ball. Then walk to the next arrow , etc. (10-25 yards or so). This is teaching your brain to “pick a spot” and ignore yardage. It is a great exercise. When you get good at this then you can swing the ball. You will be surprised at how good you can get.
Then you can trade the tennis ball for a life saver. This will really help you focus on a tiny target.
This is just one of the ways I like to teach folks instinctive shooting. You are looking at what you want to hit…
There's not that many good books on instinctive bow shooting, and it seems that everyone has a slightly different take on it. And while many will call it instinctive what they really teach is not really true instinctive.
You ought to publish it if you believe in it. You could do Amazon and it wouldn't cost much to put it out there. But what do I know? I am struggling with the same, issue, because I always wanted to write Western novels, and I did write a novel after I retired. But I haven't published it yet either, because I am not sure how I want to go about it.
I'd buy that book . Nice practice tips I basically do same useing judo points leaves dandelions etc . Periodically stand at the bale eyes closed concentrate on form . We all need a tune up once in awhile
Chuck Adams was gonna write the forward for me. Ted Nugent’s would probably add something. I wrote a forewarn for a new archery book Ted plans to do.
I don’t mind helping anyone. Just email or message me.
I think that those like Hill that blended a point of aim with instinctive ability made the best hunters. I am done at 30 yards. A good point of aim archer can extend that distance some.
I wonder about Hill, Fred Bear, and some of the others, I think they probably blended it, like you said. For me personally, I can shoot pretty darn good at times, shooting at close range, shooting pretty close to pure instinctive, but generally, I need to use the blended point of aim, with a bit of instinctive ability thrown in.
The more blank bail shooting practice I do, the better I shoot instinctively or mostly instinctively.
I think Papa Bear probably aimed with his arrow while still drawing the arrow and released very soon after reaching anchor, because he said if he waited very long after full draw, he lost it. I am sort of the same way, however, I have found myself being able to hold a light bow a while longer before releasing and still shoot well at times.
At any rate I wish your book was available, I know I would by it.
I started instinctive and later semi gap Funny thing is when shooting deer I don’t think I have even once thought gap. Just somehow the arrow finds its way.
Here's my mindless dribble about instinctive shooting; it's the only way I've shot for half a century or more. The basis first of all is to have repeatable form, not form that looks like a certain thing, just good 'repeatable' form. Then when you get consistent with that, focusing and shooting, it will become more ingrained as you shoot. If you start using the arrow consciously, you will just burden yourself by always worrying where it is, or if it's in the right spot. If your form (draw, anchor, hold, release, follow through) is the same each time, then you're ready to just focus and shoot and become good at it.
Instinctive doesn't have to be a true definition, so you need to get past that crap. It's many things, but it is an ingrained trait that allows you to just react to do it instinctively. Be that as it may, it can't be done by guys who want to have a different bow every month or so, or who keep trying this or that because someone else does it that way. If your form is not the same each shot, you will make a grind of learning it.
As for using the arrow, no....but you can't not see it, it's right in front of your face; however, you don't use it for instinctive in a conscious manner, you learn to focus only on the target. If you can't do that, then that needs to become a major part of "learning instinctive". And no, that term isn't contradictive. It's form first, and that has to be good repeatable form. You will get tired of hearing that but it needs to sink in.
I also think if you want to shoot instinctive, you can't be peckerin with different holds or different anchors unless you want to delay the process. Consistency, like having the same amount of powder in a bullet is key to overall accuracy. But even with all of the verbiage tossed around nowadays, it's a simple process that is a product of just good, repeatable, consistent form. Again that form doesn't have to be or look textbook, just consistent.
There are always those who try to mystify things, and make it seem harder than it needs to be. It's the same with instinctive shooting. It's a simple process that requires consistency in action that works for you, and how it looks has little bearing on how well it works, except for that consistency in form thing.
If you give it a fair go, you will get pretty good. If you have to try everything told to you on archery forums, you likely will struggle. Form first, function follows form, so the form needs to be the foundation and the follow-up. You'll know when you're getting better because you start hitting the target more consistently, and more often on that first attempt, that tells you the form thing is working for you.
It's not magic, it's work, but it's fun work. A large part of it is feel, and the best way to get to that is use the same bow, or one nearly identical until you get it down. Once it becomes ingrained, then going from bow to bow won't take long to learn the differences since the form is locked-in. And you can shoot well past 30 yards instinctively and be efficient at it. You likely won't be cutting 4 for 20's all the time out at those longer ranges but you will become a lot better and start hitting those spots the more you shoot at them.
Now everyone has their way of doing it, and explaining it to others, but when it boils down to the gozintos, it's still about repeatable, consistent form as a foundation. If you don't have that, then you may as well go three fingers under, stay close and don't bother. And before the three under guys start crying foul, it can be done with that hold as well. There's more than one way to hit the target without a slide rule or Siri.
Just a thought that popped into my head in the form of a question though.
"Isn't (Instinctive) something you just naturally do without any forethought of doing it?"
If so, I'm an aimer, but I do it "Instinctively". :-)
George, not trying to argue with you, just making a statement concerning the split finger vs 3-under thing you mentioned.
I can shoot both ways.
The thing is - I can go from split finger anchoring under my chin, to 3-under anchoring under my eye, and I can't NOT see the arrow sticking out there.
Actually I see all the way from by bow arm shoulder to the tip of the arrow, then of course beyond that to the target.
When I close my left eye I see from my bow arm elbow all the way out.
I agree wholey George, great write-up. I am a look at the spot shooter also, when I miss most times it is because of form breakdown. It sure does not take much when your at 20 25 yards to screw your shot from a slightly bad release, collapsing or not a good follow through. But it is sweet when everything happens correctly.
I gave my son a brief bit of archery instruction. That basically amounted to look at your target, adjust your stance, bring the bow up and push it at your target, and simultaneosy draw the string back, and release when your string hand touches your face. He took it from there.
The Lord gave all of us instinct to be able learn things. There are different paths, we don't always choose the path others have taken but we may choose to look at the path they took to get there and learn from it. I believe it takes our instincts to wrap our minds around all the concepts of shooting and we will not all see the same but we can accomplish the same goal with varied levels of accomplishment. I think that works just fine
Who was it that said become the arrow? instinctive shooting if it works for you it’s like magic but it’s meant for close distances. I’m a believer, but we have been debating this since the beginning of Stickbow.;)
I wrote an article for Traditional Bowhunter where I gave my thoughts on the topic. It was the April/May 2022 issue. I called it, "Breaking Down the Instinctive Mystique."
Rick, I never said you couldn't shoot 3 under instinctively. You will see that in my last paragraph...."And before the three under guys start crying foul, it can be done with that hold as well".
I generally like them close, the closer the better, but I've taken deer beyond 25 yards aiming instinctively, with snakey selfbows and hickory arrows of moderate efficiency. Piped em too, precisely where I was looking, top of the heart/double lung. Another thing I like about instinctive aiming is I don't have to concern myself with judging distance or elevation, at all. If it's within the distance that the subconscious has adequately trained, I trust it to put the arrow where I'm focused.
My two cents worth; I two have shot instinctive my entire life and agree with what George and Frank have said for the most part. One thing I have noticed is if I start thinking about the shot I will usually miss by a mile. If I just concentrate on the target and shoot it makes all the difference.
I know George. That's why I said I wasn't trying to argue with you.
Maybe I could have worded it better, but I was supporting your observation with my description of seeing the arrow regardless of either hold, or anchor position.
I guess technically I see the arrow but if my focus is correctly on what I want to hit I do not consciously see it. George I think you have it just right, you build your form first and the up down and left and right comes through practice. It does take a lot of practice but a lot of us grew up shooting thousands of arrows this way to ingrain the flight of the arrow without conscious thought and it works. How well it works depends on the individual as well as what you are doing. Is it the best way to achieve the highest score at a tournament ? Not always but it works just fine for hunting at the distances we limit ourselves to as bow hunters and the equipment we have chosen to use and has through out history. How do we know it has worked throughout history ? Who is to say earlier archers did not use another method ? Well where is the proof they used another way when the earliest written instruction all stated to "Keep the eye focused on the target" with no mention of other methods. It worked for people then and it works now.
1. Know your weapon SO well that you don't have to "think" about anything involving it's use (like your hand for example...when you use your hand you don't think about the nerves/muscles, etc...you just USE it.)
2. Focus 1000% on a MOLECULE of the obect you want to hit.
I’ve been shooting a bow for a long time. Really wanted to be good at instinctive shooting like the great ones and got “okay” at it but never content with my consistency especially my first shots. Doesn’t help by shooting different bows I’m sure. Over time I’ve adopted an aiming system you know gapping, fixed crawl, and even string walking (the horror) but you know what I’m actually happier now and come home from the woods and the range much less fustrated.
To each their own and it is very satisfying to make an instinctive shot. But I think a person after giving it a fair chance and not working out to not get hung up on it and move on to other methods.
Just wanted to give a counterpoint, not trying to piss anyone off.
Love the tennis ball idea and I am gonna try it this weekend. Sounds like a great drill. I needed a new idea to keep practicing. Tanks Frank. Sometimes I just don't have focus when I am shooting.
Years ago there was a guy down in Texas that shot the Apache and Comanche model bows for Native Redman Archery. He kept himself in adult beverages by entertaining out of town salesmen with his shooting prowess. He would bet them that he could hit their hat at 100 paces. He did it often enough so that they wouldn't bet with them any more. He could hit a man at 150 paces. bvd.
Here's a short instinctive shooting story. My son and I were at the Cheyenne Mtn. public archery range shooting a round of 3D a few years ago. He was shooting his #74 tricked cbow and I was shooting my #55 Grizzly barebow.
Now my son is a fine shot. That boy outshoots everybody and that's no BS. I'm a pedestrian shot at best at twenty and out. We were walking back out to the truck and passed the elk target for the second time. We didn't stop at the regular shooting station, the target was quartering on, up a slight hill. He ranged it at 100 yards. It was a slow day, nobody was on the range up there. So Brian looks at me and says, "Dad, I'm gonna take a shot from here."
okeedokee. He does so and says, "I shot over it." I didn't even see the arrow against the sky it was blistering fast. Then I thought, oh, what the heck. I nocked an arrow, looked at the rack, raised my bow arm, drew and pulled through. I lost sight of my own arrow in the bright noonday sky. A few seconds later I heard a clacking noise. "You just hit that elk in the rack, Dad. Shot of the DAY right there." Pretty amazing for a guy that had just shot most of the course at the kids stakes. lol
Well said George S. I agree that it is a learned skill, and I agree that the arrow is right out there in front of you, and that you see it. I've never paid attention to the arrow and if I do, then I mess up because I'm not concentrating on the spot to hit.
I had a nice long talk with John Schulz about this...he was a pretty good shot :) He said..."sure I can see the arrow, it's right out there in front of me...but I choose to disregard it." Basically it was in his peripheral vision and he learned to blank it out. Later he told me and he said as such in his video. "learn to black out everything else. Don't look at his antlers or the size of the animal. Choose a hair, a spot, concentrate on it..." Meaning that if you black out everything else, your concentration on the spot to hit is that intense, your brain will learn to disregard the arrow that is right out there in front of you.
Kinda like driving a car. When was the last time anyone concentrated on the front of their hood while driving? They see it, they know it's there and it helps to align the car between the lines on the highway while seen in subconscious peripheral vision, but no one pays attention to it, therefor they "don't see it"
Kinda like that, Rick. :) you can see the arrow, by choice, or you can choose to disregard it by choice and it becomes a blurry blank peripheral area like the hood of your car or pickup :)
Nate, I drive by pointing my vehicle too, but I do it instinctively. :-)
Now, let me clarify something: I don't stare at the arrow. I stare/concentrate/am focused on the spot I want to hit, but I can see, and am "fully aware" of how the arrow is pointed in my periphery.
Just like the hood of my car. I'm not staring at it, but if I don't know where it's pointed, I'll probably wind up in the ditch. :-)
In other words - I don't disregard "anything", but the way I do it all comes so natural, that I deem it "instinctive".
Asbell had a good point about instinctive being the term used. He said one of the first things we look for in a baby's responses is the hand and eye coordination of reaching for something that they are looking at. The pointing of the hand to what the eye sees. That is instinctive. That same thing is used by us every day in untold ways. We reach or point to what the eye is looking at. So the shooting of the bow without using a secondary aiming function isn't totally instinctive, it's a learned motion, but the way it all works is based on an instinctive hand and eye coordination we are born with and develop over time.
For me, a projectile is a projectile. I give no thought to that. I let the brain go to auto pilot and watch my target. Watch me shoot sometime. I watch that baby aspirin in my throwers hand from the time they get it from the bottle. I watch and if they have not thrown for me I have them throw a few and I watch the pattern of the pill as it’s airborne. My brain calculates all that data and Al I do is put a bow behind my back and slowly draw. When the brain says “now” I release.
I can’t see the tip of the arrow or the bow. Only my target. If you throw darts you don’t sight off the dart. You look at where you want the dart.
Getting to the auto pilot and trusting your brain takes years of practice and repetition.
Those that say it doesn’t exist simply don’t know any better or don’t know how it’s
Done. I don’t think we all have the same eye sight, hand eye coordination, etc but everyone can learn to do it.
For me, a projectile is a projectile. I give no thought to that. I let the brain go to auto pilot and watch my target. Watch me shoot sometime. I watch that baby aspirin in my throwers hand from the time they get it from the bottle. I watch and if they have not thrown for me I have them throw a few and I watch the pattern of the pill as it’s airborne. My brain calculates all that data and Al I do is put a bow behind my back and slowly draw. When the brain says “now” I release.
I can’t see the tip of the arrow or the bow. Only my target. If you throw darts you don’t sight off the dart. You look at where you want the dart.
Getting to the auto pilot and trusting your brain takes years of practice and repetition.
Those that say it doesn’t exist simply don’t know any better or don’t know how it’s
Done. I don’t think we all have the same eye sight, hand eye coordination, etc but everyone can learn to do it.
Where is there arrogance in the truth Phill ? The statement that such a method does not even exist is bandied about a lot on a lot of different forums concerning shooting a bow, just look for about anything on instinctive shooting and you see it. It stands to reason that a lot of archers who endorse other aiming methods do not understand it so where is the arrogance that borders on stupidity unless it is from someone's answer to Asprinbusters comment. I get so tired of being told by someone else what I can or can not do or what I do when they are not me. Instinctive aiming is constantly put down as something that does not win world archery tournaments by people who deny it exists even so it is oblivious they do not understand what it works for best or how it works, no arrogance, just the truth.
PS In essence is to use your bow hand index pointing toward the target while shooting until your brain will adjust to the outcome you want - arrow to go "there".
Phil, I would like to apologize to you for my comment, I think I defiantly did not read it through well enough. I see your meaning was not directed at Frank but in support in that those who deny the existence of instinctive as a aiming method are the stupid ones. I should not be reading or answering anything after two nights without sleep. Again, my bad.
"Phil, I would like to apologize to you for my comment, I think I defiantly did not read it through well enough. I see your meaning was not directed at Frank but in support in that those who deny the existence of instinctive as a aiming method are the stupid ones. I should not be reading or answering anything after two nights without sleep. Again, my bad."
For those interested in taking the time to learn something ..
I wrote this on here back in 2011 The Bernstein Problem and Instinctive Archery.
There’s been a avalanche of debate recently on the topic of Instinct and the techniques adopted by the “Instinctive Archer”. The robust and forceful nature of the debate reflects the passion, dedication and enthusiasm of archers who have attempted to describe and analyse aspects of human activity that are commonly considered some of the most complex and complicated of all human neuro muscular and neuro locomotor activity.
The debate is centred around explaining how the instinctive archer is able to concentrate all his visual attention and focus on the intended target of the arrow and executes the shot sequence without reference to other peripheral factors. The popular explanation of the technique is that, the execution of the shot sequence is made at a sub-conscious mental level without conscious intervention and relies on the “instinct” or reflex action of the archer to co-ordinate, regulate and monitor all the various movements and component parts of the body necessary to send the arrow to the intended target. There is little doubt within the archery community that there are practitioners of the Instinctive technique who are able to shoot with astonishing consistent accuracy and precision at both static and moving targets and the success and popularity of the instinctive technique has led to a library of books and magazine articles supporting and promoting “The Instinctive Archer”.
The conflict arising within the debate is not the instinctive technique itself, but the explanations given as to how it works. How is the human brain able to control, regulate, adjust and executes the shot sequence with repeatable accuracy with all the archers attention concentrated on a single intended target while ignoring any and all peripheral stimuli and how is the human brain able to make the necessary strategic choices required for the shot to be successful?.
This phenomenon has been known to Neuro scientists for decades and what the Instinctive archer is attempting to explain is commonly referred to in academic circles as “The Bernstein Problem”. (not to be confused with the Bernstein mathematical differential equation)
Nicolai Alexsandovich Bernstein was a Russian mathematician and Neurophysiologist who first wrote on the subject in the 1920’s after observing Russian metalworkers at the Soviet Institute of Labour. Bernstein observed how metalworkers could accurately perform repeated hammer blows on an anvil while all their concentration and attention was directed to the target of the hammer blow without reference to the position to the hammer and any moving parts of their body. Bernstein wanted to understand the mechanisms used by the human brain to perform these “locomotor tasks” and explain the underlying neurophysiology to the scientific community. His investigation into this complex problem would dominate the next thirty years of his working life.
Bernstein began his research by studying the spatial trajectories of the shoulder, the elbow, the wrist and the hammer head of the metalworkers as they performed repeated hammer blows. He achieved this by constructing a crude version of the sophisticated three dimensional motion capture apparatus we use today in modern movement analysis. Bernstein attached small light bulbs to the joint centres of the arms and the hammer head and filmed the movement of the lights during the hammer blow movements. He then analysed and plotted the spatial location of each light bulb on each frame of film relative to each other and relative to the fixed location of the target position.
Bernstein discovered that there was no single trajectory pathway of the joint centres but large multiple variations in the trajectory pathways of the joint positions. He also discovered that the position of the hammer head at the end of the blow always remained constant, in other words the hammer head was always delivered to the precise spatial location without the metal worker paying any attention to the movement of the shoulder, elbow or wrist and that somehow the brain had compensated for variations in the movement pathway of the body parts.
Bernstein developed the concept that the brain was capable of producing “Engrams”, small learned pieces of movement information contained within the brain that are capable of being used individually for simple tasks or grouped together to form more complex and sophisticated “repeatable” patens of locomotor activity. Many researchers in Neuro sciences throughout the world, would, in years later, confirm the existence of neural engrams often now commonly described as “Patten Generators”. Bernstein also knew that, although the activation of neural engrams was controlled by the central nervous system, information coming into the brain from sensory receptors contained throughout the body in the peripheral nervous system could influence the activity.
Bernstein then began his ground breaking research into how the brain organised and processed the sensory information coming into the brain and how the brain used that information to ensure the hammer blow was always in the correct spot. Bernstein discovered through experimentation that the brain is capable of processing sensory information in both series (one thing at a time) and parallel formats (many things at the same time). Movements of the human muscular-skeletal system are capable of an infinite amount of degrees of freedom at any one time within three dimensional space, Bernstein discovered that the human motor cortex was able to disregard degrees of freedom movement not relevant to the task and that the human brain produces a hierarchy of high frequency compare and contrast algorithms from sensory neurons to regulate a paten of activity executed from the Cerebellum. Decades later, this pioneering work would, become the foundation knowledge of Neuro science research in institutions around the world.
So Bernstein discovered that humans are capable of performing movement actions with repeatable precision while focusing all their visual attention on a fixed spot but there are large degrees of variation to be found within the movement pathways. The brain initiates an orchestrated series of pre programmed commands to execute the task. That task is consistently receiving feedback stimuli from specialised sensory neurons located throughout various parts the body and at any time the brain is capable and willing to accept or disregard the information that may compromise the quality of the task.
So when the “instinctive archer” describes concentrating all his or her focused attention onto that small target object or hitting that small aspirin thrown into the air, that’s exactly what they are doing. But, when they describe the activity as “instinctive, reflex or sub conscious, they’re attempting to answer the Bernstein Problem with an answer that is incorrect, and this is where I and I suspect Nicolai Bernstein would have to respectfully disagree with the instinctive archery community. What they’re actually describing is the initiation and execution of a complex, co-ordinated paten of neuro-muscular and neuro- chemical activity, learned and refined over thousands of arrow shots, regulated and controlled by some of the most complex human neural activity over which they have complete and conscious cerebral control.
I suspect archers will be discussing, debating and arguing this topic with the same degree of passion, enthusiasm and love of archery and hunting for decades to come and we’ll all eventually come to the same conclusion .... who care’s .... now ....shall we go and shoot some arrows?.
Did you catch the part of my post where I said ”repetition”.. and letting the brain be in auto pilot ? Although I didn’t have the scientific or academic background to quote the info you posted, I can say I don’t disagree with what I read in your post.
I can say however without hesitation that you using the word “stupidity” in a post about my post wasn’t necessary to get your point across. It also didn’t help anyone which was my goal in this thread - to actually give some pointers to help others.
Although I’ve seen lots of videos of archery, I’ve done five shots in front of
Live audiences that were first. Hitting tiny targets behind the back was not something frequently done if ever in our sport until I did it. And using different throwers at each venue instead of a “set” thrower makes the challenge even tougher. Keep in mind I do these exhibitions with live audiences on a stage - not a backyard with a camera so it can be edited and dubbed.
Your post was good information. Your delivery was fine except the part where you used the word stupidity. I don’t know where you are from but I was raised
To debate and discuss without insulting the other party.
That’s why I responded with “whatever”. I suppose over academics I would say having been mentored by Fred Bear, Earl Hoyt and Rev Stacy Groscup perhaps that brings a little relevance and credibility to what I post regarding archery. I haven’t read about it - Ive been on stage and done it. And believe me given a choice, I’d stick with the time I spent around these great men of our sport. Anyone can read a book. I felt it was special to know and be mentored by these archers.
With all due respect (and I am NOT on the same level as most of you guys) but one of the most overlooked and least discussed things about shooting "instinctively" or "pointing and shooting" is setting up YOUR bow/arrow combination to suit YOU.
That means using a bow you can handle (whatever that means to you) and matching it up with an arrow that shoots where YOU look. Not where I look, not where anybody is looking but you.
It doesn't matter what the spine it is, it doesn't matter what the length is, how heavy it is, what material it's made from, it doesn't matter the centershot of the bow, the brace height, the string material, or anything else. All that matters is that when YOU pull the string back and let it go, the arrow goes where YOU were looking. It doesn't make a rat's rear if it works for anybody else or not.
That set up may or may not bareshaft perfectly, and it may not produce "perfect" arrow flight, it may not even work for somebody else, but it doesn't matter as long as when you shoot the arrow, it goes where you look.
There are likely subtle differences in penetration potential and so on with a bow/arrow combination tuned this way, or there may not be. But at the average distance that most people are talking about shooting it is mostly irrelevant.
If you are getting good clearance off the string, the arrows aren't flying sideways, and the bow noise is acceptable, that's really all that matters in the end. That in and of itself makes a HUGE difference in learning to shoot this way.
" I suppose over academics I would say having been mentored by Fred Bear, Earl Hoyt and Rev Stacy Groscup perhaps that brings a little relevance and credibility to what I post regarding archery."
I suppose over archery I would say having been mentored and tutored in cognitive neuroscience by two Nobel laureates perhaps that brings a little relevance and credibility to what I post regarding how the brain works.
I suspect archers will be discussing, debating and arguing this topic with the same degree of passion, enthusiasm and love of archery and hunting for decades to come and we’ll all eventually come to the same conclusion .... who care’s .... now ....shall we go and shoot some arrows?. This is the most intelligent post I have read in quite a while.
The advice I give was to help archers. Not to debate and discuss the technical aspects of neurology, neuroscience and etc. My friend Wyatt Woodsmall as you know has been fairly successful coaching Olympic athletes, etc and he also cut the US military’s training time in half with his work. He’s been to my home and I understand you may try and debate his validity in your field but he’s been very successful doing what he does with NLP. Neuro Linguistic Programing. I’m a student of his and it helped me. Practical experience carries weight yes!?!
And bottom line I feel stories and anecdotes from men like Bear, Hoyt and Groscup probably carry more weight than your academic friends. No offense but the average archer wants to be able to go afield and hit what them shoot at. Not read a bunch of academic theories and information. I’m not debating what you posted isn’t accurate. I’m debating your stance as being superior because of your training and work. You’ve read about it. I do it.
Thanks Frank for your tips on training. I don't know why this type of thread with practical ideas for training turns into a discussion about theory and what instinctive shooting is. I was just hoping to hear a few more ideas about practice routines. Thanks again.
In the interest of having a civil discussion, where Phil talks about a study of metal workers swinging a hammer. As a carpenter I can relate and anyone who has watched a novice trying to hammer a nail can plainly see it is not a natural skill but one that is learned through practice, and after lots of practice great improvements can be seen. Another thing I’ve. noticed as a foreman is going up and watching a less experience carpenter is how they sometimes “choke” and and bend the nail and even miss it completely just because someone is watching. Heard similar stories about people when shooting in front of others or at a competition.
"...arrow shots, regulated and controlled by some of the most complex human neural activity over which they have complete and conscious cerebral control." How can you support the notion of complete and conscious control? Triangulation, degrees of elevation at unknown and constantly changing target distance all while being chased by multiple attackers does not give a quarter back time to attempt any complex trajectory calculations. Like shooting aspirins in front of a crowd,it is done by feel and practicing the right feel. The "instinctive" part occurs when control becomes subconscious,reflexive and the auto pilot is not only trusted but key. The arts, drawing, music or shooting a bow "instinctively" depend on innate i.e.,natural(instinctive) ability to figure out and execute reflexively without having to b e conscious in the moment of what has been refined by practice .
Shoot a few thousand arrows and if you still cannot improve, likely one is not mentally in the game and capable. If so, merely leave instinctive shooting to those who can do it.
Like I mentioned. As babies, we're born from birth with the instinctual ability to point where we look. At that time of life, we have not had any learned behavior, we are just starting the life process of such. That instinct is born in us and is the basis of the hand eye coordination that can result in shooting an arrow without aiming devices. Shooting arrows in thus manner over and over until the brain learns the pathways to direct our bodies to perform correctly is the process by which instinctive shooting occurs. Maybe the shooting/learning process isn't instinctive, but the basis for all of it is instinctive. We're all born with that ability. How we develop it in the various forms is up to us.
I agree Nate, the Creator wrote the prescription at conception. Phil shared an accurate description of what is happening because of the prescription and I believe we all use this in all of our activities. And we can use our free will to choose how we shoot. I recommend having fun whichever way that might be. For me sights and gaps are too burdensome up to maybe where my point on might be but there is a distance where a little gap understanding is very useful and my instinct will let me when that is
Only man overthinks physical performance. All other life, 'just does it' because it can.
Watch your dog running full speed and leaping to catch a thrown ball out of mid air. That animal does that with no thought other than to 'catch the ball'.
Man can't seem to do the simplest activity-like shooting a stickbow- without overthinking how to do it. But we've learned to tie our shoes in a few seconds without the slightest thought.
Yes we can point where we look but how accurate is the point? We find out when we point a rifle, handgun or bow that our pointing isn't good for much beyond an indication of general direction. I don't think an infants finger pointing has very much to do with shooting anything.
Of course we "learn" to tie our shoes in seconds without any thought...after some years of practice and fumbling. Most people aren't very good at throwing a ball or shooting either for that matter. Just use the force Luke. LOL
Thank you Frank for posting tips to help people. I think it is good when anyone posts to help people or give them something to try. Sad that it bothers some people if its different from what they think.
The term instinctive shooting is as made up as muscle memory. Archery is a repeated act that when done over and over becomes routine. The more you practice the better you become. The brain remembers the site picture, the archer holds the bow higher or lower relative to the distance the brain remembers. Some need pins, gap whatever, some don't.
All bows are different and the more of them you shoot the more the brain remembers. That's why when you change bows it might take an arrow or two for the brain to remember how to tell you where to hold for that particular bow. (Beware of the man who owns just one bow)
"Instinctive tips"? Start with a big target at close range and graduate to a smaller target further away. As much as some want to make it science and complicate it, it ain't science and it ain't that complicated.
I find shooting a stickbow is very easy in comparison to hitting a golf ball well. I read touring golf pros hit 500 balls a day to stay on their form between tourneys.
If I shot that many arrows a day I'd be greasing my form BIG time form. I've never shot that many in a week let alone a day. In fact some winter months I don't shoot 500 arrows.
Off topic. My uncle was in the army during the early years of the Vietnam war, gathering intelligence at various villages. He regularly rode hueys to those villages. He told me a helo pilot told him three days layoff would make him lose some of his edge. That sure addresses 'Do it.' to me.
I guess that means we just have to shoot our bows a lot...dog gone it! And just when I was looking forward to doing winter "honey- do's"....oh well. Let me get my quiver..... ;-)
Rick Barbee ""Isn't (Instinctive) something you just naturally do without any forethought of doing it?"
Well, what I do and have always done is split vision. It's what I have always done and have never thought about it, so does that make it instinctive? I do that out to 35 yards and then I gap, so that makes me a heathen I guess?
Swinging a golf club and pointing a bow from a solid anchor really don't have a lot in common, And you don't have to shoot 500 arrows a day either , that would most likely be more harmful than anything.. Keeping your shooting muscles in shape, concentration on eye focus,and development of trust in your pointing accuracy, starting at close range, then slowly working your way back. would be a smarter start .. ..
Frank, I seen someone else, some kid, shooting behind his back on youtube, back a while, at thrown targets and it was impressive.
Do you have any video's up, that I could go watch on YouTube or whatever?
What do you consider to be the single most important thing to focus on when shooting, and or practicing, to develop the accuracy and repeatability of these shots you make on moving targets, aspirins, etc.?
"As much as some want to make it science and complicate it, it ain't science and it ain't that complicated."
Lol. It really is science and complicated, EVERYTHING is. You certainly can do things as an Art too but that's just being willfully ignorant of the science. The end result may be similar, but still.
Knowing brace height, too weak/too stiff an arrow. Proper string length, consistent form. Some science, yes, but all things a 12 year old can understand, not exactly Nobel Prize formulas here. What is instinctive about any of it.
Nothing willfully ignorant at all, but it is silly making this harder than it is. It must be tough going through life thinking EVERYTHING is complicated.
So when I get a new bow first my father and I set it up. Reason I like this is because he’s 80 now and has set up every single bow in my life. We do it as a team. I know someday I’ll have to do it on my own but for now that’s my first step. I begin playing with it at close range to find the sweet spot. Usually I’ll call Douglas Denton the main engineer at Hoyt and will discuss with him where the Olympic guys are shooting with that mode brace Ht wise. Mine is usually different but I start there. Then I adjust the nok until I’m happy. Once I’m hitting at my exact mark then I write the BH on my bottom limb with a sharpie. I usually get twin bows from Hoyt so each is numbered 1 and 2 … and each is shot in this way. For some reason number 2 always ends up my favorite. FDP can second that.
Anyway, then I will shoot the bow at various distances starting close and backing up. The balloons and tennis ball and lifesaver like I mentioned before is what I use.
Having good form and consistency is key. Follow thru always helps when shooting tbe regular way.
Someone asked about aiming - I stare at the center of whatever my target is. The smaller the better. My eyes are crazy good - 20/8. A blessing from God so that helps on locating my target. When that pill or pills are tossed up - it’s in slow motion in my mind. It slows down and I watch the flight until the brain says “now” then I release.
I hope this helps. Every bow will have a sweet spot. Finding it is key.
Ay yi yi, yi yah. You gettin' that?! Mex lingo...slang.
All this again! First off, Frank, good for you introducing folks and especially youngsters into archery via your shows. I'm giving you that. But you did not invent shooting behind the back. It's been done before you. Come on man, you think we all are rookies to this stuff?
. Maybe not as some public exhibition but definitely before what you proclaim. Give that a break....in the 60's me and my fellow archers at that age of 8 to 10 years old found ourselves bored after hunting the railroad tracks for rabbits...city rabbits no country... Wound up in Billy's backyard...old tattered softball laying there. Billy being the wild one of our bunch started shooting arrows at it....soon he turned it into a competition from shooting it from behind our backs..it didn't take long before we knocked the crap outta that softball...ducking ricochets too...you bet!
Didn't think I'd ever post again on one of these instinctive threads but here I am ,you can take it or leave it. Give 2 u know what. Nothing ever gets anywhere arguing these threads.
Those of us who know...well we know what you don't...too bad for you. :)
"Knowing brace height, too weak/too stiff an arrow. Proper string length, consistent form. Some science, yes, but all things a 12 year old can understand, not exactly Nobel Prize formulas here. What is instinctive about any of it. Nothing willfully ignorant at all, but it is silly making this harder than it is. It must be tough going through life thinking EVERYTHING is complicated."
I'm not struggling. It comes down to how deeply you want to understand something, even if it comes easy.
You just happen to have a low bar. A really low one.
Stacy Groscup shot behind his back at an 18’’ disc. I get it. Other May have too.
However, I am the first to hit objects like baby aspirin , multi baby aspirin and mustard seeds that way on stage in front of live audiences. 1994. That record stands. I didn’t assert I invented it. However I did say I was first at these type shots.
Thanks for your kind words. The show does get kids excited about archery.
See there you go...Jeffer stating he knows what Frank is talking about "slow mo" in your head. That visualizing the shot before the loose is what happens naturally after thousands of shots to some true instinctive shooters. I don't visualize jack after all these years...don't think, don't visualize, just look, focus and let loose. I've been accused of being too analytical ...let them say what they want...alot of it true. .I learned on my own...best teacher thru those early years was myself just learning from my mistakes..got good...it was natural. Don't get in my way or I might just teach you a thing or two.
Kind of comical watching those who cannot, rip on those who can.
Isn't that kind of like listening to the Libs. You know, I never did anything, so the rest of you who worked smart and hard should listen to me, and spread your wealth. I wonder if there is a correlation ?
Fortunately a large percentage of my shots on stage strike their mark. However given that I am in different venues, with different throwers and different lighting etc in a given year naturally I do miss. The best series of shows I ever did was in Minnesota with a lady I didn’t know named Heather knight from Pope and Young Club throwing. All five shows were first shot shows in the final shot - the baby aspirin.
However the worst show ever was in SC and it took over 99 tries. My serving slipped mid show, I only had one bow and it kept slipping and I had no tool to repair it. Rather than quit I shot until I hit it. Lost most of the audience but I can say I’ve never left the stage in 38 years with a miss.
Anyway, FDP has thrown for me a lot. He can vouch that there are two kinds of misses. When it’s me it will be left, then right, high then low etc. that’s me. When the miss is consistently low left - no matter the target then it’s the bow. My brain will eventually compensate for it but typically I grab my back up bow and then fix that bow after the show. The brain will adjust but with a live audience you don’t always have time for that. One time in Eau Claire, WI my Bows didn’t arrive on the plane. The only bow in the building was a 1950-60’s bow - a Bear. The book slid up and down the string freely and the three arrows the guy had didn’t match. I hit the baby aspirin the 13th try and I was guessing where the arrow should be nokked..
The brain will adjust. I do miss yes. Usually it’s me if it’s occasionally, a consistent miss is the bow.
Missourbreaks, you are correct. It's an attitude either way. I prefer the positive attitude. Phil has 2 questions for Frank. I'll bet Frank doesn't know or care how many times he misses. He doesn't think about it.
There is no one size fits all in set up, form or “aiming” technique. I do think the ones that blend styles are most successful hunting. I think there are shots that require a fast action style shooting (close range typically) and this is where instinctive styles shine. A gap or point of aim may be a little more accurate at those longer distances. I was beat in competitions by gap shooters. Of course none of them could
Do what I either.
The late Doug Walker tells of Howard Hill and him at a construction site near LA. When traffic was heavy they would go there and shoot rabbits to waste some time. He said Hill would shoot behind a sitting rabbit to make it run and then take the rabbit on the run with his second arrow. This tells me that due to the way a rabbit spins and runs so rapidly and cutting around that Hill would almost have to have some instinctive ability too. A point of aim wouldn’t work because the rabbits pace was too rapid.
Anyway, I never met Hill and that’s one question I would like to have asked him. I hit a running chipmunk once as I ran and jumped a creek but that’s a story for another day.
AspirinBuster said..." The late Doug Walker tells of Howard Hill and him at a construction site near LA. When traffic was heavy they would go there and shoot rabbits to waste some time. He said Hill would shoot behind a sitting rabbit to make it run and then take the rabbit on the run with his second arrow. This tells me that due to the way a rabbit spins and runs so rapidly and cutting around that Hill would almost have to have some instinctive ability too. A point of aim wouldn’t work because the rabbits pace was too rapid."
I've shot running rabbits my entire life with shotguns and I use the bead. I shoulder the gun and sight down the barrel using the bead. Do the same thing when shooting multiple aerial targets or hitting one aerial target multiple times.
we used to shoot very small aerial targets with handguns and rifles and we aim using the sights. It's fast but we still aim.
It's been a while since I shot aerial targets with the bow but I do it the same way. I draw and aim just as when I shoot at anything else. I just have to do it "fast enough". I still aim.
I watched a tiktok video yesterday of a shotgunner that tossed a stack of eight or nine clay birds in the air and broke every one of them with a separate shot. I don't know how he did it, but I doubt he was aiming with his front bead. The guy knew his gun was shooting where he was looking. Without a doubt that's the most amazing shotgun speed shooting I've ever seen.
Don't know if it was the same guy, Ton Knapp exhibition shoots for Banelli been doing that for years. Pretty dang quick and accurate. don't know if he shoots from behind his back though.
It wasn't Tom, it was a young dude. That said I just watched Tom smoke nine on youtube. Incredible doesn't do it justice. Tom's 'nine' was a bigger spread too. Thanks for mentioning him.
I gotta see this stuff to believe it. If I heard someone say so and so broke nine in one toss idda said BS. Back when I was shooting a lot I very rarely broke three.
The same "instinctive" argument takes place in the shotgun community as well. Look up, Robert Churchill and read his book, "Game Shooting." It explains shooting instinctively very well. For me, I get tired of arguing with people with nothing better to do than argue between what is a rock and what is a stone. lol
Nine shells doc. Run the vid at .25 regular speed.
Additionally Tom can shoot from the hip, single handed. Also with the shotgun upside down, single handed. No bead involved. And, like AB, behind his back. Sorry naysayers. Instinctive exists. Those videos are proof.
All kinda incredible shooting to be seen during March Madness. Narry an aimed shot. They 'Just do it.' because they can.
I've seen Tom Knapps shooting on a sports show....can't remember the name...he was something else. I remember the 9 clays and other incredible shots. Byron Ferguson was also featured at times.
I forgot to type a smiley at the end of my above post...."teach a thing or two" ....so not to be taken seriously.;)
What a great showman. His voice and stage manner was spot on for showbiz. Great shot too.
Tom had me shoot an arrow up once and he shot it from mid air. After seeing my show in Austin he developed a behind the back shot the next time I saw him. Great guy.
I have some really funny stories too. Kinda like some w Fred Bear and Dick Mauch. We would have to be sitting around a campfire for these stories. So much fun.
Tom passed way too early. Satterwhite was another good one and I hear good things about the Gould brothers. There’s a younger guy I did shows at GAMEFAIR in Minneapolis with - Travis Mears. Texas boy and a great shot. Kim Rhode is probably the Olympian that’s won the most medals ever - she’s a great shot with a shotgun.
Exhibition shooters are usually easy to recall because there aren’t that many of us…
The stage bows are set up with a homemade leather rest - I don’t shoot off the shelf. They are set up for short range and the rest is such that it allows me to stack as many as six arrows at once. I did 12 one year at ETAR.. that was one and done. Way too many arrows. Ha.
The hunting bows - be it a compound, recurve or long bow are set to allow me to
Have one arrow very accurately shoot with a good clean flight. I like the old
Hunter supreme and Berger button on a compound so I can adjust for broadheads. It’s simple and pretty rugged. I don’t take game at long range - I have but that’s rare. Typically I like 30 and under. I have a .270 if I’m shopping game way out there. To my mind a bow is for close range. My leather rest will work on these recurve bows but I found out on King ranch one mesquite limb can pop that rest right off the bow. It made for that.
Well, confession time. When I was little I was hit by a car. Luckily it was a be big. I rolled up the hood and off the roof and hit the road. I had a stoves finger and bruised kidney. Scared my poor parents to death. Anyway, that finger drags a little and will kick my arrows a little if I shoot a short unforgiving bow. A longer bow hides that. So I always get the longest compound or recurve I can get. I do like the Hoyt buffalo - that rascal shoots great. FDP has one of the Hoyt hunting bows from my collection and he likes it.
Stacy Groscup loved short bows. I never did. They are faster but I can’t shoot them as accurately. I like forgiving over speed.
Well, I won’t fool with the behind the back stuff because it’s not practical for the average bow Hunter.
I did shoot target archery as a kid. My parents have owned and operated a large retail archery shop with indoor range and target ranges since I was a young child. I grew up
Shooting competitively (instinctively) and I worked on my form then. Stance. Proper grip placement etc. even though he was point of aim Jim Brown was a shooter I admired. Anyway, I worked on a good release and consistent form and follow thru. I’ve always felt NFFA style shooting and target ranges can help make us better hunters. Anyway, I did work on good form. And making sure my bow was properly tuned. I anchor pointer finger in the corner of my mouth. You are looking for consistency..
I will use a Hoyt buffalo for turkey. I carried a compound (instinctively) for the last 10- 15 years to hunt with because I didn’t want to wound an animal with my recurve. I stay sharp for my exhibitions but that’s close range. If I were going to take my recurve after deer or my longbow I’d have to shoot a lot more than I get to these days. My sons are active and their sports and activities don’t give me ample free time. I shot for hours a day in my teens and 20’s.
A recurve is a viable hunting weapon but it’s my opinion that we do a dis service if we go afield unable to quickly and accurately take the game we pursue. I hope that makes sense.
Rick
Both. I insist on good flight and accuracy. My father is amazing and he taught me well. He’s never paper tuned a bow, he taught me how to tune a bow and I’m very particular about it. You can ask FDP. If a bow doesn’t hit my mark I’ll be at a show and after the crowd leaves I’ll get my gear out and reset a nok or work on my rest etc. play with the brace Ht. I have to have the arrow flying clean quickly because the shows are on a stage that doesn’t give me much room. I’m lucky if I get 21-25 feet indoors. That arrow has to come out of the S curve cleanly and quickly.
Do it your own way but aiming might just get you hunt-worthy accuracy with your recurve. Isn't this a "traditional" archery forum? Do you think the accuracy needed for turkey is less than other game? Turkey vitals are pretty small.
Aspirinbuster said..."I will use a Hoyt buffalo for turkey. I carried a compound (instinctively) for the last 10- 15 years to hunt with because I didn’t want to wound an animal with my recurve"
Sounds good Frank, but for someone to proficiently shoot instinctively, that arrow "has to be going" where they are looking,
So
Q5: What "specific" adjustments do you make if:
(1) The arrows are flying great, but hitting left or right of where you are looking, or (2) The arrows are flying great, but hitting high or low of where you are looking.
Most of the time with a blind the turkey will be in my comfort zone (close) and if not I pass the shot. I passed a trophy 7x7 bull elk in New Mexico - it was 22 steps and I could his nose and his rump. Two steps and his vitals would be clear. But in that high country near the Gilia the wind changes directions as the evening cools and he winded me. He darted up the mountain and turned back offering a quartering away shot at maybe 55-65 yards. An archer with a compound with sights and release would have had an easy shot. And on this hunt I had a Hoyt compound - but he was too far for my comfort level. I’ve my mark at that distance and further with a compound but a trophy like that wasn’t a shot I was willing to gamble on. Had I wounded him it would have been a king pack out because I knew he would run down the canyon on the other side and without horses we would have been spending the night tracking and trying to pack him out. Sometimes I grab my compound and sometimes a recurve depending on what and where - and how much shooting I’ve been able to do. I do not worry about using a bow “with training wheels “ or my longbow or recurves. Archery is archery and I make the call which bow I’ll carry. Stacy Groscup used to use his compound
In his shoes to illustrate that you can shoot instinctively with one and also to encourage all archers to be one and not divide based on gear. I agree with him.
Rick
It’s more complicated than this but here’s a few quick things I would do first. Up or down with my particular set up probably means my nok has slipped so that’s the first thing I would check. Since my leather rest serves as a very primitive Hunter supreme and Berger butter set up- I shoot it center shot and get beautiful flight from it. However sometimes the leather will be worn down - an arrow going right probably means I need to add a layer to the “Berger button side” and an arrow going left probably means the base or center part of the rest based off the shelf and moved. Sometimes I’ve had people touch the tests after the show and one time a guy pushed it loose. So these days I will lay the bow with me on the autograph table so that I can keep and eye on it and I’ll let folks look at it but tell them not to touch the base.
One time when the formula series of bows first came out I was at a show and missing the pills left and right. There was no set pattern - but I was shooting well and knew it wasn’t me. This was the bow with the brand new riser that no longer took the standard ilf limbs. Mr Owen Jeffries was at my show and afterward he and I sat and talked. I had shot well on every shot but the pills. However I couldn’t hit the pills quickly - I had two bad shows back to back that had taken maybe ten attempts to hit them. Owen and I looked at the bow. I explained to him that the bow was much flatter and faster…. And I also talked with my father on the phone and Hoyt’s bow designer/engineer Douglas Denton. We all concluded the same thing. I needed a stiffer arrow - I use the ACC 371 (and they’ve quit making them and last year shipped me the last of these the Eaton factory had). Anyway, we all came up with the same answer. My father actually was the one who said “change your 145 grain field tip to
100 grain and see if that won’t correct it.
And it did. I hit the first baby aspirin thrown. So in other words that bow had that much more speed than the old Hoyts. I had used 145 gr for 20 some years with acc and aluminum arrows.
Anyway, typically once I honor the road the bow is hitting where I look with good flight. When something happens something has moved - so it’s nok point or rest. I always liked Dale Earnhardt when he drove Nascar because he would duct tape on his car hood or whatever it took to fix his car to finish his race. I have supplies in my bow case to finish a show and Hoyt keeps me in bows so if one lays down during a show I can grab another. At one time before Covid I kept three separate “show kits” going. That’s six bows (2 each), three sets of arrows and three nets. I may have one set of bows leave my home in January and go show to show until spring. I’ve had one set on east coast, one west and always a spare at home. In my hey day before Covid I stayed busy about 30 weekends a year. The pace now is much slower… but it’s picking back up finally after Covid.
The stage bows are always tuned to me for behind the back shooting. Having said that they shoot down the middle the regular way too. But I rarely shoot them like that because the flu flu arrows won’t get much distance accurately. When I was shooting regularly in shows I seldom shot more than three times at a pill. It was simple.. that was when I was young and shot 2-3 hours a day.
Behind the back I am not sure but I think these days it’s probably around 2-3 shots average on the pills. I did three first shot shows in Pittsburgh recently - out of 5 shows. Fridays didn’t go well but we had a small crowd anyway that time.
That Hoyt Buffalo was a great shooting bow out of the box. I really liked it but it was kinda short for me.
The flight of the arrow has fascinated me since 1971. My father handed me a fiberglass simple kids bow, some cedar arrows and took me outside. He had bales set up with a simple target. After showing me the proper stance, how to grip the bow, load it and place my finger tips on the string he said, “Draw the bow, anchor and look at what you want to hit.. the release.”
I’ve been doing so ever since. Because of archery my life has been blessed with so many lifelong mentors, heroes and friends. I’ve done a lot of cool things and met a lot of cool people all because my parents and because God gave me pretty crazy vision. Who knew I’d meet a President, celebrities and folks from all walks of life all because of a simple day in 1971 in a backyard. It’s a been an amazing time to say the least.
There’s just something about the beautiful ah of an arrow
Flying towards it target. That fascinates me to this day. Perhaps
Theo (Nugent) summed it up best - the mystical flight of the arrow.
I understand about passing on shots you don't feel right about I, obviously, think you're right to do so. I think everybody should shoot or hunt with what they enjoy. I use a single string bow because that's what I enjoy...no other reason.
I still say that "When in doubt, it's ok to aim." LOL
Doesn’t matter to me. I like 45# on the trad bows and these days around 60 on my compound. Time was I used 82 pounds with a compound but that’s long ago. These days the lighter bows do the job. I do like the longest bows I can get. I find them smoother and more forgiving. I’m for accuracy over speed. Earlier I discussed the reason.
Don’t be perplexed. Instinctive allows you to shoot any weapon, the style works well on all of them.
Quote... " So assuming you have decent form, your gear is properly tuned and set up- now you are ready to begin."
OK Frank lesson 1 ... teach me to shoot instinctively....
I have (even though I say so myself) pretty good form and my gear is set up to perfection and I've been an archer for 60 years
I shoot a 54 inch Assyrian style horse bow with a thumb ring in the asiatic style with the arrow on the right side of a bow with the bow in my left hand. I shoot at Marks at unknown distances usually between 100 and 200 yards.
So teach me how to shoot instinctively using the same techniques your mentors taught you so I can hit a mark at 200 yards as often as you hit an asprin at 6 yards
One day my son was on his basketball court. We had had a sport court built for him because he loves basketball. I walked out one day with masking tape in my hand and Gatorade. He questions what I’m doing on the court since I know “nothing” about basketball. This was true. I didn’t. I asked for the ball. I said, “Son, this is the arrow. The hoop is my target..”. And “I do know a thing or two about hitting your mark with a projectile. This ball is the projectile”. I then placed some “X” s on his court with the tape at various distances and angles. I said, “Start here and shoot the ball ten times. When you hit 8/10 you can move to the next spot..”. He questioned this. I told him the brain was amazing and that this exercise was feeding data into the brain. It was helping his muscles and brain work together so that when he was in an actual
Game, his brain was say “I’ve been here before and I can make this shot..”. He reluctantly did the exercise. He was pretty good at it. The next tournament he played in he made six three point shots plus others. I can’t take credit for it but I will say God designed us all with an amazing ability and amazing computer. Our brains can be programmed…
Having said that I can’t really say I’m familiar with your set up. I’ve seen similar equipment but I don’t know much about that type of archery. However, again I would probably have you start close. Have a large target - a towel or sheet or something brightly colored on the ground for your brain to focus on. And using bright feathers so you can clearly see the arrow’s flight and where it lands. Once you can hit your mark move the object on the ground back slowly… allowing your brain to see the misses and adjust your shot accordingly. You will pattern it and then the brain will be able to adjust your shot for each distance. All we must do is collect data and allow the brain to do what it does.
Think about it this way. I shoot from behind the back. I can’t see the bow or the arrow. Yet more times than not the arrow goes where I want it to. Time and practice. Hours of shooting. Practice. Work. This is how I programmed my mind and body to do it. I will say God gave me 20/8 vision and pretty good hand eye coordination. But it’s a matter of programming our brain.
Phil, thank you for the question. I know nothing of your style of shooting but I think that’s how I would teach it. You want a goal or a target and you want the brain to develop a pattern on how to put your arrows at the mark. It will tell
You were to draw the bow, the angle of the arm, etc. and I would say your follow through is vital to send that arrow on its path accurately.
Snapshot from a turkey hunt at Plum Creek - Dick and Carol Mauch’s ranch in Nebraska. This hunt I used a compound - instinctive shooting doesn’t matter what type bow. The concept is the same.
Frank, I agree with your tips and the fact that bright fletching or arrows that the eye can see in flight with the peripheral vision really helps in the learning process.
The key for me, and those I occasionally instruct, is to not take the focus off the target, no matter how far it is. The brain must be able to correlate the difference between the target I'm looking at and the flight/arc/path of the arrow and the hit in order to judge how far off the miss may be, and thereby correct for future shots. In basketball, we see the hoop directly, but our mind also sees the path of the ball in flight via peripheral vision and how far off the miss may be. Then the mind corrects for future shots. Same thing in archery.
The greatest downfall to shooting long distances with just instinctive shooting is that our eyes want to watch the arrow in flight. When that happens, the eye and mind don't have references to see how far off target the missing arrows are, because the target and arrow flight path become the same reference point. You need to maintain focus on the target until the arrow hits no matter how far the target is.
I shoot a lot of arrows at 60-90 yards and it's amazing how small the arrow group is and how often the target is hit with no aiming aid other than my hand/eye/brain coordination.
All good advice,,,seems like a never ending debate,,,,most importantly,,,I’ve had the privilege to see one of Frank’s shows with some of my buddys and thier young sons new archers,,the show was great! The message given priceless that is what truly drives Frank thanks for what you do Brother ,,,fraternaly Jeffw ,,,,,,,,
Thanks brother Jeff. I remember well the day I met you at Denton Hill after my show. You were wearing a POA t shirt and I wasn’t sure about you until we spoke and found out we were both traveling men. Then we had a great visit. That was what, 13 years ago? Time flies amigo.
I always liked the clam chowder and steaks at the Log Cabin steak house up that way.
Some here on LW live to wade onto threads and disrupt the threads. If I read something I don’t agree with here more often than not I’ll move on. At the end of the day it’s a hobby (a living for some of us) but it really doesn’t warrant the amount of time wasted debating.
Instinctive archery is real. Those that disagree as I’ve said all along either can’t do it or don’t understand it. They can read all they want and sit around and debate. I’ve witnessed it with men like Stacy Groscup and my father and for 52 years I’ve done it. Sometimes in front of audiences as big as 15,000.
Frank you are absolutely correct, those who do not learn it or simply can not do it will always deny that anyone else can because it deflates their arrogant little egos. It is a shame their fragile egos are more concerned with themselves than allowing anyone who is trying to get some helpful insights to do so without their learned interference but it seems that is the way it is today. Never mind that a lot of people learned how to shoot instinctively and have had ample success with it they always know better. Thank you for the tips.
In the pre Covid days I would often perform 30 weekends a year. So I stayed in great shape shooting wise. My bows and body were always ready to perform.
I performed last July in McAllen, Texas. The bows were packed up. It was a busy fall and winter so the next time my bows were put together was in Pittsburgh, in February 2023. The first show on Friday was so so. Small crowd and shooting was off. I worked on my back up bow and came back that weekend to do three first shot shows on the baby aspirin/mustard seeds. So 3/5 shows were first shot shows.
You must pay your dues with practice and tuning your bows. Once you are there though it’s easy to maintain. I rarely if ever practice these days unless I have new bows.
I am currently setting up two identical 2023 Hoyt recurves that I’ll use for the July McAllen show. I’ll shoot these two bows enough to get a few for them then they too will be packed up and ready for a show. Over the years Hoyt has been very kind to me and I appreciate Greg Easton, his father Jim and all the folks at Hoyt including Douglas Denton the Engineer that has designed these amazingly accurate bows.
If you have a question about instinctive shooting please ask. I’ll help if I can. Happy to do so.
In the pre Covid days I would often perform 30 weekends a year. So I stayed in great shape shooting wise. My bows and body were always ready to perform.
I performed last July in McAllen, Texas. The bows were packed up. It was a busy fall and winter so the next time my bows were put together was in Pittsburgh, in February 2023. The first show on Friday was so so. Small crowd and shooting was off. I worked on my back up bow and came back that weekend to do three first shot shows on the baby aspirin/mustard seeds. So 3/5 shows were first shot shows.
You must pay your dues with practice and tuning your bows. Once you are there though it’s easy to maintain. I rarely if ever practice these days unless I have new bows.
I am currently setting up two identical 2023 Hoyt recurves that I’ll use for the July McAllen show. I’ll shoot these two bows enough to get a few for them then they too will be packed up and ready for a show. Over the years Hoyt has been very kind to me and I appreciate Greg Easton, his father Jim and all the folks at Hoyt including Douglas Denton the Engineer that has designed these amazingly accurate bows.
If you have a question about instinctive shooting please ask. I’ll help if I can. Happy to do so.
I think we have been over this repeatedly, instinctive is not a true definition of the process but is a common word used to denote that process. If you choose to use this same old tired statement it proves nothing except a desire to stir the pot more. Any time anyone has a thread of this nature, some people seem to have a desire to show how much more knowledge they feel they have than anyone else and can not stand for some unknown reason to simply let people who have a interest in the subject discuss it among themselves. Frank has simply offered his knowledge of the subject to those who have an interest in it but other fragile egos always seem to need to show how wrong that is because they do not agree with it. I guess their need is not instinctive because they sure do practice it on a regular basis.
Whatever anyone wants to call it Frank most of us know what it is.I got a chance to see Rev. Groscup some years back and he was just amazing, a really nice man and a great ambassador for the sport. It does not matter if you do trick shooting as a way of financial support or not to me, you and others are out there spreading the word about our sport in a positive manner and that reaches so many people more than any tournament shooter who no one but a very few adherents to the sport know about and mostly soon forget.
Reflex Archery? Humm… I do like that, almost as much as Intuitive Archery. It really is unfortunate how “instinctive” stuck and “snap” got black-balled.
A child begins pointing a finger at what he/she wants very early. It’s a natural movement. Although man tends to over complicate things, we all have some degree of “instinctive” ability. A deer bolts in front of our truck. You immediately stop, missing the deer. The brain saw danger, the foot goes to the brake then the thought of what went on is processed. A quarterback on a football team doesn’t have sights or a gap for the football. He is watching various receivers scramble down field while also watching those players running at him. He picks his receiver and launches the ball in a split second. If you place your hand on a hot stove, your brain immediately tells your body to remove it. That’s in born. It’s a reflex. This instinctive ability is within us all, it simply needs developed. That was Rev Groscup’s thoughts on the subject.
His credentials? 49th inductee into the National Archery Hall of Fame. Set the world record on a tv show called “That’s Incredible “ by hitting seven aspirin tablets in a row without a miss. He entertained thousands with a wonderful archery exhibition that was entertaining, one of a kind and fascinating for the crowds that same to see him. He was my mentor and I shared practice ranges, hunting camps and the stage with him. He did his last public appearance with me at age 82 and hit the baby aspirin the 7th shot that day. Age 82. Let that sink in.
By the way, when ABC filmed “Secrets of the Bible” they flew Stacy down to where they were filming the show. He’s the only one they could find that could accurately shoot the sling like David used on Goliath. Stacy amazed them by taking this simple sling and pebbles and hitting objects tossed into mid air with it. That clip is on YouTube.
Men like my father, Fred Bear and Stacy Groscup didn’t lecture me or make me do research. They simply guided me along the path they had walked allowing me to learn hands on how to do what I do. I’ll take that over reading about a subject any day. Because all those men have done amazing things in archery. And with the hands on approach I was able to master a shooting style that’s often misunderstood, misrepresented and looked down upon by those unfamiliar with it.
Well, since our local neurologist doesn't like the term "instinctive", what are we going to call this form of shooting?
There are more than a few people on the planet that have shot with no gap or sights and were amazingly accurate. Some "snap shot", some settled but all of them had faith in their form and didn't aim with anything but pointing their form at the intended target.
Now I'll allow, instinctive as a word might not be the be the perfect dictionary word but to deny the mental process is beyond laughable.
If it were impossible guys like Lars Anderson and Frank wouldn't be able to do what they do. There isn't time for the slow conscious processing of all the gozintos to make shots in those situations. So the subconscious i.e. instinctive part of your brain takes over. It is the only way it can work regardless of what complicated mental process a doctor claims is happening. I'm not claiming the brain doesn't go through a process it's just not a conscious process.
Learned instinct is still instinct. A toddler doesn't instinctively protect itself from flying objects but by 5 years old you've learned if you don't put your hands up to something flying at you, you're going to get hit. At that point your hands instinctively come up to block said projectile. No thought,no calculation just an "oh ****" and hands up. That's learned instinct.
Ok I take it back,instinctive is a pretty good word for it. Now I'm going to subconsciously put some arrows in the gold while I consciously think about how dumb the denial of instinctive shooting is. I may even have a conscious argument with my other half while I do it.
Phil , the next time I meet with my stroke specialist MD, I'm bringing up that Berenstein study and what it implies. Repetitive tasks were something my brain wouldn't accept after my "Big Day". I had to immerse myself into everything related to bow shooting before it began to "take". Started out as a very frustrating journey , but its kinda fun now. And its been an adventure . Looking forward to more with my bow.
But first, I had to get my brain to accept repetitive jobs. Incidentally, I'm actually a better shot than I used to be. Rebuilding my shot led to getting rid of some bad habits due to being chronically over bowed. I
A man must make his mind up at some point to be in the arena or in the bleachers. In the bleachers it’s a safe area because you can dole out advice and discuss and debate theories and such. It’s easy to criticize those in the arena from your seat on the sidelines.
In his now famous “man in the arena” quote Teddy Roosevelt addresses this. Gentlemen perhaps you have “read” books, reviewed data, etc to come up with your own opinions and theories. However, I tend to go with what I see and what I do.. and these great archers have all provided a path for us to follow. I had great mentors.
It’s clear to me as I walk out in front of a live audience. I can miss. I can be booed. I can fall flat. Or I can nail the targets and sign autographs and encourage others around me that God gives us all talent and that our mind is the greatest computer ever made. I can promote archery to families and to the next generation. That’s my goal.
Perhaps you disagree with the way I explain it. Ok. But let me ask you this. What are you doing to promote archery and to help others ? With your words. With your posts.
What’s your intention??. This thread was to give advice and help those wanting to learn the method. It was not intended to be a debate. And I will say Runner that Stacy was perhaps the kindest, most humble man I ever met and like Jesus he went along life’s path doing good and helping others. In regards to instinctive shooting he had no equals. Nobody has been able to touch seven tablets in a row from mid air without a miss. In my 20’s I could do 4. It’s a very difficult feat.
Gentlemen, this style is real. The method works well for fast paced shots and short range hunting. Instinctive shooting is natural and easy in concept and harder to master. But it can be done.
Frank, thanks for the tips. It is amazing how so many intelligent people can argue over a term being correct for a given method, not that the method doesn’t work. But yet, they can’t understand the designation of debate free. And none of them seem to offer a “Proper” term to to replace the term “ Instinctive “ that for some reason rubs them the wrong way.
I admire you for still being willing to answer any questions from those of us who appreciate your knowledge, and not let the nay sayers shut you down.
Thank you Frank for this practical information. I agree with your explanations, and more importantly have personally experienced this type of shooting for over 60 years. I have no idea why the instinctive style of shooting always turns into silly debates from those who obviously do not want to practice enough to become viable.
[[[ AsperinBuster: "A man must make his mind up at some point to be in the arena or in the bleachers. In the bleachers it’s a safe area because you can dole out advice and discuss and debate theories and such. It’s easy to criticize those in the arena from your seat on the sidelines." ]]]
Now Frank.
That sounds very much like a challenge. I've offered you a challenge in the past. You chose to ignore it. "wink"
While we may disagree on how you get there, I'm not an "instinctive shooting" denier. I even tried to help you offer/present your tips by asking "valid" questions.
Get back to the tips, and question answering, and leave the other stuff out of it. All that other stuff does is muddy the water for those who are truly interested in learning.
I'm on your side. Really, whether you realize it, or not. :-)
Okiebones ... it's contained in his book The Co-ordination and regulation of Movements Published by Pergammon in (I think) around 1965. There's another excellent book by Prof Mark Latash called Dexterity and it's Development thatdetails many of Bernsteins papers on how we develop the use of our hands
I didn’t muddy the water. I started a thread to help those with questions. It was to have been debate free. When they wade onto the threads and toss insults at me, at Stacy Groscup etc I’d say they muddied the water.
I don’t recall a challenge but then again after sharing a stage with Stacy and shooting beside him I can’t say it bothers me. But these days I have a bow in my hand for two reasons - hunting with my family or being paid. When I snap those show bows together it’s a paying gig. I do donate appearances and bows and arrows to charities occasionally but when I have a bow in hand it’s to hunt or be paid.
I know you are known to be a good shot. And I don’t really think you try and disrupt the threads.
I didn’t include you with those casting insults. If you go back and reread the thread you’ll see that I didn’t muddy the water. They did.
Anyway, I will help anyone that asks. Not a problem. I just don’t see what value these insults and persistent disruptive comments bring to the conversation on a debate free thread.
Drag politics and religion into a discussion and people of differing opinions are immediatelty offended, regardless of their education level.
Case in point. Just today, what started as a very pleasant family get together, ended an hour with two camps driving off feeling bad. I mean it escalated outta nowhere, and ended fast, and this is in ONE family only, not two. My son went for a two mile run, while his wife and daughter were in eachothers sh$%. Daughter drove off abruptly, and mom and dad left with the two boys shortly thereafter. BAM soon, done.
No difference here or anywhere else. That's the story of man in a nutshell.
Look at U.S Civil War. There were incidences of family members killing eachother over differing political belief. That's the truth. And religion? Race? No difference whatsoever. Untold bazillions of people have slaughtered eachother over those as well.
You know what's funny is I had Ann and Zaliah in the garage showing them how my flintlock works a couple hours beforehand. Prime, close frizzen, bring to full cock and pull trigger. WHOOSH!! They both got a real kick outta that. Big smiles. It was totally cool. Then two hours later they went off. Over nothing.
Frank they muddied the waters with insults because that is all they have in their lives to make them feel superior. I have seen the same thing for years and a lot worse on other forums on the same subject every time. There are just some people who can never feel good about themselves so they want to run everybody else down because it is a threat to their egos.They can never allow anyone else to have what should be a simple discussion so will do whatever they can to talk down about what someone else might enjoy and they do not. They see the greatest threat in life as someone who disagrees with them . Yes I to am off the subject and perhaps I am just as wrong as they for going on like this but if you do not oppose bull crap you condone it and it is always the same people who have to make the same old lame points, perhaps if something offends you then you should try and find your safe space by not commenting on it or in other words when the adults are talking the children should be quite.
I’ve decided that if I abandon this thread the folks in the bleachers win. So let’s carry on here.
Those that want to learn or ask questions carry on. Let’s continue what was started.
Instinctive shooting exists. Most of us can do it although hand eye coordination and quality of vision etc vary but most can learn. I put a disclaimer early on that a blended style may work best for hunting mixing a gap and instinctive shooting. I never did that. I’ve used instinctive shooting since 1971.
Great Frank ... so lets get back to your comment that the execution of an archery shot can accurately be described as a "relfex".
Seeing as the reflex arc famously has no involvment from the central nervous system ie the brain doesn't recieve the sensory signal from the stimulus nor does the brain expel the motor signal, can you explain which of the very well documented spinal reflex pathways is responcible for shooting an asprin with a bow from behind your back?
One can sure tell the I can, from the I cannots. Personally, I would suggest some practice shooting, and lots of it. I need no scientific explanations, those are debatable and not fully applied among users. With practice, we can all get the arrow in the target within reasonable limits, then know your personal limitations. If you cannot live with those limitations, keep practicing. No shortcuts and bad attitudes, it is your problem to correct.
Thank you Frank for your willingness help, and congratulations on your shooting success.
I’ll try and type some notes on this later today. Busy day here.
Phil
Unfortunately Rev Groscup passed Sept 20,2005 so he’s not here to defend/debate his term “reflex” shooting. I don’t know that he meant it is a literal reflex but he was saying that all of us had the ability… within. Sadly he is not here to discuss this. I am not sure if there is a good video of one of his shows or not - he passed away before YouTube was a big thing. I’ll try and see if I can find one.
In any event, all of us here know you are well educated. Point taken.
Thanks again folks. I’ll try and put together a post later today.
There is no book. Just pages of handwritten notes. Chuck Adams was going to write the foreword but we talked and he discouraged me printing it. It would have been expensive to do and I didn’t see a market for it.
Rev. Grosscup called it "reflexive shooing". He was obviously describing another phenomenon from scientist Phil. Y'all, sometimes one has to read between the lines to get at the true meaning especially when definitions are not offered.
The Reverend was an excellent, legendary shooter. I had the good fortunes of seeing one of his exhibitions with my brother of eternal memory. Of all he people on this thread I'd take shooting tips from the Reverand any day.
Frank, thanks for trying to describe the process of instinctive shooting. It is too bad you have to endure all this criticism considering what you have achieved in archery over the years. But that is the nature of the internet as you know.
Hang in there, my friend. At least, you tried. That's more than most can say.
Thanks Jawge. You have been to my shows and Stacy’s. There wasn’t a better man than the good Rev. He had a doctorate but rarely used the DR title. His buckskins are hanging 15 feet from me in my office.
Thanks for you input Jawge. There is a difference in having degrees and having wisdom.
Who cares a bout the science behind it? Look at what you want to hit and pull back and shoot. Then shoot til you can do it or get a sight or some other form of aiming. If you need to do that then that is ok. No one cares. Heck you can even get a compound. I have friends that hunt with em. If you need one get one.
I shoot instinctively. If you don’t believe it’s possible, I don’t care. I do not need scientific analysis of what I do. I hit what I shoot at in a manner that suits me. Again, if you don’t believe it’s possible, I don’t care. If you need scientific analysis to make you happy in your endeavors, then do so. Analyze your self and what you do and be happy but leave me out of it.
I enjoy archery for it’s simplicity. I don’t want anyone telling me I’m doing it all wrong as I am pleased with what I do. I feel that anyone who wants to decry others for what/why they do, has serious problems and should examine themselves closely.
There’s a difference between having degrees and having wisdom. Pains me to agree with you but that’s absolute fact.
There seems to be some confusion regarding shooting this way and those who may also shoot this way AND may also want to understand exactly what is going on in more accurate terms than broscience.
The ongoing misconception with those who scoff at those wanting to understand or assuming that the person who wants a better understanding "can't do it" shows the vital importance of book learning. Even if it's just for comprehending an online discussion.
I admit to being mildly amused that those who scoff at book learning wanted to write a book on the subject and having being talked out of that WROTE the basics on here to be READ.
No need for book learning. Keep it simple. Look at what you want to hit. Come to full draw each and every time and shoot until you get better. If you do not get good enough to shoot at the distances you want to shoot then get a sight or string walk, crawl, gap, split vision until you can. It really is that simple. I am not good at 50 yards or more but at 10 yards or less I can put an arrow in the kill of a deer the same as a rifle shooter. Now I said kill and not the 11 or 12 ring.. So lets make that clear. Trad bowhunting is a short range sport. if you want to shoot in the Olympics get a sight.
Frank, I'd venture a guess that since Dr. Groscup was a learned man in the ways of the Bible, he knew Psalms 139:14 and believed it in it's simplicity...and didn't need to know the how's and why's of the workings of his natural Hand/Eye/Brain coordination, he just believed that it all worked. He believed in his talent, believed it was a gift, worked hard to develop those natural abilities and then explained and taught it in simplistic terms. He's from one camp. The other camp needs to know the how's and why's and has to have everything scientifically explained and reasoned out. The two camps rarely meet in the middle, as you've seen in this thread. It is what it is.
By whatever term you call it, and no matter how deep you want to dig into the scientific arena to satisfy your beliefs, the ability to perform the necessary hand/eye/brain coordination to shoot an arrow without an external sighting method is an inherent ability that we as humans are born with. How well we develop it is up to us.
I will do a book, just not the book I initially started to do. It will have some of my shooting tips and tactics, along with anecdotes from folks most people may enjoy hearing about like Fred Bear, Stacy, etc. I have been honored to serve on a national level in two Presidential campaigns, including being a surrogate speaker for two Presidents. The Bush Cheney campaign flew me to Bend, OR during the 2004 campaign and this was probably the first time an archery show has played a role in a US presidential election. I also served on the National board for Sportsmen for Trump, Hoyt built a special one of a kind bow for this and I gave a speech in Wisconsin with Don Trump Jr. we did it virtually due to Covid. Anyway, I have lots of cool stories including have musicians and actors at our private shows, etc. but more than all this is the fact that I overcame diversity to do what I’ve done with a bow. This hopefully can inspire others - kids born with issues to know God gives us all talent. Mine happens to be the 20/8 vision and the ability to do what I’ve done with a bow.
The fact that you are amused, well, good for you. I would ask where you are from that they use terms like “bro science”. Don’t hear that a lot here in Texas. Interesting.
Quote " ... the ability to perform the necessary hand/eye/brain coordination to shoot an arrow without an external sighting method is an inherent ability that we as humans are born with."
It sounds like you're suggesting thare's an archery gene. So the cultures such as the Australian native people who have no history of the bow ... how did they miss out.?
Frank, "Broscience" is just a term used to describe made up science for those who don't want to bother with learning the actual Science.
It is kind of a universal term worldwide, particularly in the fitness/gym industry.
It can be a misunderstanding of Science presented as fact or more often just straight up nonsense presented in an authoritative manner.
I figured any book you wrote would have to include a lot of other stuff to flesh it out. "Instinctive" shooting fills very little of a book, or even a chapter. Hard to say if Chuck would give you the go ahead.
Never heard the term. Runner, you mean like when my brother (pHD New Testament) told me (retired chem. teacher) that steam and water vapor were the same things. That's truly broscience. :) Jawge
I recently watched youtube vid of astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson explaining why we really aren't seeing the sun in it's actual position while watching sunrise and sunset. That the sun we see at sunrise and sunset is not actually where it appears. It's about five minutes away from the position we see it, due to refraction of light in the earths atmosphere. That's interesting stuff alright.
But if Neil was sitting there on the deck on a warm summers evening, watching the sunset with my wife and I, and launched into why we weren't really seeing the sun set, I'd say, 'Shut up bruh."
Runner, same here too. I get a lot of it from my cousins, who I dearly love, regarding Covid. But let us not derail the thread.
Back when I first started shooting (1958) I made good use of the point. As the years progressed I forgot it was there. Seeing is not the same as perception.
Chuck simply encouraged me to wait and explained the book sales process. He’s done some books. I have seen people do amazing things with a bow if left to develop their style without a lot of over coaching. My way is to give them the basics and then let them develop the style of their own. Since eye sight, hand eye coordination all varies it can be misleading to tell them to do it like I do since your eyes and my eyes aren’t the same. That’s the one issue I’ve had with some of what I’ve seen regarding instinctive shooting.
Anyway, carry on gentlemen. Please ask any questions. I’ll try and answer.
Frank have you noticed something seldom mentioned about vision. It seems most of the best archers I have seen including Olympic style and traditional all had outstanding vision. Do you feel visual acuity is a big factor in instinctive shooting.?
I can only speak for my eyes. I thought everyone could see what I saw. At 20/8 I was always the tracker for deer camp when someone wounded a deer. I could track individual deer in a herd. I’d follow the wounded deers tracks of the blood stopped. When I picked out my wife’s engagement ring I could see pockets of carbon etc in the diamond with my naked eye and the jeweler was using a 10x eye piece. That baby aspirin looks like a car tire to me. Sometimes if the light is good I can see the “81” stamp on the tiny yellow 81 aspirin. These are 1/3 the size of the baby aspirin or so.
Stacy did wear glasses. I’m not sure the strength or the quality of his vision but he was bad to the bone as a shooter. We were opposite. He loved a
Short fast bow and I always went for the longer, slower bows. They were more forgiving.
My eyes greatly help what I do but I’m sure you can develop good instinctive shooting without 20/8. I’m sure with your training you have had a lot of marksmanship training.
I can only speak for my eyes. I thought everyone could see what I saw. At 20/8 I was always the tracker for deer camp when someone wounded a deer. I could track individual deer in a herd. I’d follow the wounded deers tracks of the blood stopped. When I picked out my wife’s engagement ring I could see pockets of carbon etc in the diamond with my naked eye and the jeweler was using a 10x eye piece. That baby aspirin looks like a car tire to me. Sometimes if the light is good I can see the “81” stamp on the tiny yellow 81 aspirin. These are 1/3 the size of the baby aspirin or so.
Stacy did wear glasses. I’m not sure the strength or the quality of his vision but he was bad to the bone as a shooter. We were opposite. He loved a
Short fast bow and I always went for the longer, slower bows. They were more forgiving.
My eyes greatly help what I do but I’m sure you can develop good instinctive shooting without 20/8. I’m sure with your training you have had a lot of marksmanship training.
No real reason why you need to know the science behind instinctive shooting, unless the term itself keeps you awake at night.. Or maybe you just need to be technically right all the time.. Please share with me how your scores improved drastically by reading the technical jargon.. Yes , proper repetition, good set of eyes, and being able to point your bow hand accurately and a repeatable anchor.. Lighten up fellas..
I also want to say if you haven’t read the late Al Henderson’s book you should. Al was a great coach, fella and wrote a column in an archery magazine for years. His book is “understanding winning archery”… he was the first to call my attention to the importance of the mental aspects of shooting. To my mind, this separates a champion shooter from an average shooter. Think about it. It isn’t the equipment. I mean you should have gear that’s tuned, etc but anyone can buy a bow. You can’t buy your way to being a good shooter. It takes practice and mental awareness.
Also target panic often plagues otherwise good shooters. I’ve seen it drive people away from archery. Some try to buy gear, some try programs, etc. in my opinion it a mental issue and must be dealt with accordingly. You deal with it on the mental side and that can permanently get rid of it as long as you master it. The others steps are a bandaid and it can come roaring back.
Anyway, if you don’t have Al’s book I recommend it.
Another book I really liked that impacted my archery game was Fred Bear’s field notes. Fred went afield For the right reasons. This book shows you how to carry yourself when you are hunting. And it illustrates that it’s the entire experience that matters - the campfire and who shares it, etc.
Fred Bear's Field notes is probably the first book on bowhunting I ever read. My first copy was a hardback copy, given to me by my brother-in-law who worked for Bear Archery starting when they moved to Gainsville in 78, which was the same year I married his wife's sister. I also killed my first deer with a Bear Compound that next fall.
Anyway, I don't know what happened to that first copy, so I purchased a new copy, recently, and read it again with even more appreciation for the man, now than back then.
There's an interview of Mr. Bear on youtube where he talks about the History of Archery and ends up telling how his bow making progressed through the years, and how he stayed with the recurve because he couldn't really adapt to the letoff of his new compound bows.
I definitely believe in instinctive shooting, and I don't understand all of the controversy regarding it, as far as the scientific side of things. It's just eye hand coordination refined by repetitive practice. But like all athletic events, some people will always be better at it than others who will never do as well, but could probably improve with more practice, and a little talent never hurts.
My interest with the bow is purely hunting related, and I try to do all of my practice with that as the goal. I am shooting 100 plus arrows a day, and after several months, I have improved on my instinctive shooting and I do pretty good at the closer ranges but end up paying more attention to the arrow in relation to the target as the distance increases. I am not a gap shooter, but I try to visualize the trajectory of my arrow.
So when target panic happens, it interrupts a normal shooting sequence. Typically an archer has a mental/physical routine. For some reason the shot sequence is interrupted. It typically happens like this. An archer draws the bow, focus is on the target, shot is executed and arrow strikes its mark. That is repeated. Once target panic happens, at some point this shooting sequence is interrupted. The mind second guesses itself and the shooter then losses focus from the intended goal (the target) and the focus is now this new problem. Rather than being one and done and the archer moving on, now the focus and sequence is broken with this “what if”.. the archer may freeze up, start to release and then double clutch, etc but the mental process is broken. Instead of a confident shot sequence the target panic is now the focus. It can go away and then come creeping back. For some it’s a fear of missing in front of others. For some it’s simply a mental bump in the road by some external pressure. Something other than the target enters the mind and the sequence is interrupted. It varies but target panic is real.
To fix it you simply return the archer to a time prior to the target panic. For some NLP works because it restores the mental sequence and it’s like the target panic never happened. I understand your field may not recognize the work of Dr Wyatt Woodsmall , a board member of Nuero Linguistic Programming. Olympic athletes that have worked with Dr Woodsmall will tell you his coaching works. He is a friend and has been to my place. He spend part of a day with me in 1990 and I can attest the man is an outstanding mental coach.
Keep in mind Phil we are discussing target panic and not the merits or doubt of NLP. Let’s focus on target panic. I have found this to be the best and most permanent cure.
Great explanation Frank. I see a similarity with test anxiety amongst college students. The thought process gets interrupted, or " distracted ". This is a mental issue, period.
"Great explanation Frank. I see a similarity with test anxiety amongst college students. The thought process gets interrupted, or " distracted ". This is a mental issue, period."
"Train to Shoot the Line to The Mark". pretty much sums it up and offers an actual "tip", along with the John Shultz, most everything else is,,,, well,,,see the above.
TP related. I shoot my stickbow, and my handguns, at short range. I shoot my rifle at rifle range. I don't shoot pistols off a rest either, "because I wanna check this load and see if it's grouping under a couple inches at twenty five." lol It's a short range combat weapon, right? How about shooting a shotgun off a bench to 'pattern it' on paper. Off hand sure, but off a rest on a bench? Good luck finding that bench in upland country "Well these loads are shootin kinda funny." lol
None of that for me My bow, and handguns, are VERY close range weapons.
To each their own. When I was into handguns I used them for hunting...not combat and I did shoot them at longish range and I did use a often use a rest.
Mike, 'Front sight' is pretty much my handgun motto. I generally shoot ten yards and in, and especially at five yards where I enjoy the fast hit. I regularly shoot my bow at those distances too. I'm totally cool with a five to ten yard shot. I have no target panic.
Frank, I have shot instinctively for close to 60 years. I have never experienced target panic, and I contribute that to the ingrained way of shooting from repetition. I grew up wandering my aunts farm, just slinging arrows at whatever. Never had anyone around to reach me “proper” anything. I consider myself a semi decent archer. When I decide to shoot at whatever the intended target is, the only thought that goes through my mind is “ Am I at anchor “. I suck at estimating yardage, so conscious gapping, point of aim, string walking, etc, doesn’t work for me. The more time I take at full draw, the more I try to think about any type of shoot sequence, the worse I shoot.
Question: Have you ever experienced TP?
What is your shot sequence while exhibition shooting?
Prior to 1990 I had an issue with a kind of target panic. I could be shooting great but I’d a news crew showed up my shooting would sometimes be off.
It was a mental thing. When someone like CNN points a camera at you and you suddenly become aware that 200 million people can be watching it would affect my shooting. So working with Wyatt, I developed a way around that and happily that was it. After that I got used to pressure and it didn’t both me. I’ve had celebrities like country singer Toby Keith stand right behind me for a private show and did fine. A few times I’ve had live audiences of more than 15,000 and did fine. And I’ve done a lot of taped and live tv since then.
As far as shot sequence, I simply get my stance right, get the grip right after loading my arrow/arrows, position my fingers (split for single arrows and Apache style with groups of arrows, and then I focus on the target. I put the bow behind my back and slowly draw and when the brain says “now” I release.
Thanks Frank. I have friends that talk about having a mental checklist of their sequence that at times May approach 7 to 9 points. When they step up to the line to shoot, they go through this mental checklist on every shot. This would set me up for TP for sure. The more I think about the “process” the worse I shoot. Many of these friends have been to 1 on 1 classes with well know coaches, watch many of the videos put out by these coaches, always looking for cures for 1 thing or another. They all use some type of conscious aiming system, and on any given day, it’s anybody’s guess on who will outshoot who.
I can see in your world where TP would have been caused by TV cameras, large crowds etc, more of a stage fright situation to overcome than TP.
Yes sir. Anything that interrupts your brains normal flow and thoughts while shooting can induce target panic. It can be focusing on work instead of archery, etc. I would add a trophy animal could also cause it. The focus would be where you want the arrow and not how large the trophy is, etc.
Having a strong mental game separates the champion from the crowd. Whether it’s golf, archery or any sport or endeavor. Having strong mental fortitude and focus wins the day. Always. Someone like Tom Brady has to have a strong mental focus. That’s the difference.
For me personally, NLP provided that focus. I also advise reading Al Hendersons book Understanding Winning Archery strongly. A great book.
1. I'm assuming you wouldn't go along with the growing body of published evidence that suggests Target panic is a task specific focal dystonia ... and ... 2. you're very fond of saying the brain knows what to do .. why do you think you're brain didn't know what to do?
As someone who’s been on stage 38 years I talked about target panic in an earlier post. Reread it. The shot sequence is temporarily interrupted and then the risk of missing becomes the focus not the normal process. It’s interrupted.
Perhaps what some experience is focal dystonia but my understanding is that if that were the root cause it would not be easy to overcome. In other words it wouldn’t go away easily. I got rid of it very promptly with the help of NLP.
I would think you as a scientist may want to listen to those that do it over theories, data and books written by experts perhaps but are they experts in archery and
Shooting?!? Do they do it or simply study it!? Big difference. Not much happens in an ivory tower that has to do with what I do….
The average shooter wants something that may help them. Not a bunch of data and scientific info that doesn’t offer solutions.
Oh I see ... thanks Frank .... I'll leave it to the expert archers , you know, the ones that believe there are muscles in the fingers that you need to relax to loose the arrow and the archery experts that say an archery shot is a reflex response.
I don't understand why someone would dismiss the science and accept the pseudoscience. I get that someone who believes a pseudoscience theory thinks it is real science which just clouds the whole issue.
Nope. I want to hear about archery in the real world, proven by somebody that actual does it, and does it damn well, and has proven himself in front of thousands. Maybe some of you scientist can actually start your own thread on how to shoot a stick bow in scientific terms so those who care can learn. Some of us learn by hands on better than by scientific theory.
There are doers. Then there’s the guys in the bleachers. Educated or not. I doubt many here come on Leatherwall to learn science. They want practice tips that help them become better archers.
I came here to give tips and advice for those wanting to learn more about my method of archery. Instinctive shooting.
I’m sure you guys mean well. I really do… but when you call me stupid and doubt Rev Stacy Groscup, that tells me all I need to know. You’ve proven to us all you paid attention in science class. That’s great. This is an archery thread.
But Frank ..... some of the stuff you're telling people in this thread is bullshit and when people point it out that it's bullshit you hide behind your association with others and attempt character assination.
Question, what is the scientific term for the same couple of guys trying to torpedo any thread Frank starts? I have some ideas, but I will leave it to the scientists...
My arrows hit where I look. I get to shoot a bow. And have for 38 years. I’ve tried to help others with advice and tips.
It was YOU that typed the word stupid earlier in this thread. It was you the questioned Rev Stacy Groscup, who forgot more about archery than you will ever know. And it was you that invaded my debate free thread with your scientific mumbo jumbo. Where I’m from this is called the pot calling the kettle black. You were the one that brought insults.
The reason I post about Bear and others is because they were my mentors and friends and they endorsed, helped and coached me along on various ways. It gives me great pride to know they liked, respected and helped me.
The fact that you and a few others here don’t doesn’t bother me at all. At the end of the day I was here to help others. Your purpose was to show how smart you are. There’s a difference in education and wisdom my friend.
In have a bow, arrow, bolo tie and Fred’s pocket knife as quiet reminders of this good man.
That photo is from Dick Lattimer’s book.
And I have an email Dick sent me a few years before doing the good asking me if I thought people would still want to read about Fred. You must write the book I told Dick, you had a front row seat for some of the golden years at Bear. He was Fred’s right hand man in the 70’s and 80’s. Great guy.
