Interesting article on real world results on dogs trailing injured deer…

Seems people who think their heavy arrow from a light draw weight bow will bust through a large portion of the shoulder area need to re-examine that reality.

I also found the high percentage recovery rate of gut shot deer to be much greater than I thought, even when the hunter does all the right things.

Finally, the comments on what constitutes a good blood trail confirmed my experience. You don’t need a lot of blood to make a blood trail and deer don’t die from blood loss. Organ failure takes them first.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/hunting/bowhunters-dont- shoot-shoulder-deer/

Yep. Shoulder bone is not the place to hit. A guy named Kent here that owned Trophy Hunter's Archery, and Bud experimented on a deer carcass. They couldn't drive a knife through the shoulder bone even when using a hammer.

I don't aim for it but did hit it once with very little penetration

was shooting a 60# bow at the time

I knew a guy that wasn't bowhunting very long, but he was shooting FOR the shoulder, just like he did with a rifle. It took some doing because he was stubborn, but I eventually convinced him to aim for the vitals.

Sounds like you shot a 2X4 and the arrow falls out almost immediately. I curled a Zwickey Eskimo that I couldn't straighten with pliers. I don't believe anyone who says they broke through the shoulder.

I’m not arguing for taking shoulder shots, but….

Rather than looking at those red pins and where they ARE is the wrong lesson. Look where there are no pins at all. Deer that got hit in those spots (the ones that look like a good place to hit a deer, obviously) didn’t need a tracker. That big cluster of red pins higher and farther back…. Those are the hits which turned into…. Clusters.

Obviously, hitting the scapula or humerus is Bad Juju, and hitting through the meaty portion of the shoulder doesn’t leave an open channel for blood to reach the ground. So that can be problematic. OTOH, there are a lot of big pipes through there.

JMO, this guy is wrong about the organ failure thing being the primary cause of death. Maybeso when his services are required, but the quickest path to Deer Down is to either drop the blood pressure to the Fainting Point or drop blood O2 levels below the minimum for brain function. If you collapse the lungs, that animal isn’t going very far. If you hit a major vessel, same deal.

I’d agree that most 3D targets put the 10-ring a bit farther forward than is probably the most forgiving point of aim, but where red pins show up, it’s because somebody needed a tracking dog…

I don't try it but I have seen it done. 70# comp. With chisel tip head 15 yard shoot on ground . Looked like a 12 ga slug went threw it. Blew the bone apart.

Never aim for it with bow only rifle.

Not all shoulder shots are the same. Some parts of shoulder are penetrable. 43 pound recurve 400 grain arrow. Blew thru shoulder stopped on opposite side.

If that slit in the scapula is where the arrow "blew" through, then I wouldn't consider that "shoulder". The hard part is the bone down by that joint.

Never heard of anyone who does not consider the scapula as part of the shoulder but as I said not every shoulder shot is the same. Angle of shot is important as to whether that deer is recoverable or not. I never aim for a shoulder shot but it happens. Worst is a high and forward shoulder shot on a large buck. Nothing but meat and bone up there.

I personally stay away from the shoulder. Here is an interesting video from Tusker Broadheads on scapula hits.

Corax….my understanding is that lung collapse is mechanical organ failure due to pneumothorax and lung penetration occurring. Not blood loss. The lungs cannot fill with air as there is no pressure differential.

Deer become unconscious due to lowered oxygen to the brain…not just insufficient blood….less blood with no oxygen. They are passed out while the heart is still pumping its last.

So blood loss is a factor but inhibited respiration leads to death, same as organ failure in a gut shot deer from toxins.

Organ failure?

X2 4noltz@work

Unless blood is now a liquid organ

I would say blood loss cause organ failure.

Here's the pic.

I'm going to agree, and disagree, with Corax. Yes, the correct area with no pins is a good call. The red pins that used a dog, didn't necessarily "require" one, some people don't track well. Some have easy access and use them.

“my understanding is that lung collapse is mechanical organ failure ”

I guess I have never heard the word expression “mechanical organ failure” before.

But if you put it that way, OK. We aren’t disagreeing, so no use arguing about it.

I just figure the 3 possibilities are Hemorrhage, Anoxia (due to the pneumothorax) and Sepsis. Hemorrhage is fastest; pneumothorax is the odds-on favorite because 8-ring.

Just a hunch, but column 9 looks like the periphery of the lungs where everything is small & low pressure, so nothing happens very fast. I can see why those guys would have made the call. Kind of a slow-but sure thing.

Some of those green pins aren’t even in the shoulder which makes the argument even more strange.

think somebody just needed to write an article

from the elbow the humorous runs Foward and up

then the scapula runs up and back

That shoulder picture doesn't show pentration, just a slit where the broadhead stuck in. If the entire arrow went through it wouldnt look like a slit. The scapula would have a hole on it pr be completely shattered.

Bones are flexable on a live animal and it was a 2 blade. Deer went down in 30 yards dead from double lung shot. I butcher my deer and broadhead stop in ribs opposite side. I see where you might think that from the picture but I try to examine each deer I take and I assure you the arrow and broadhead went thru that shoulder

99% of deer or any other creature arrowed or shot die from oxygen depletion as the root cause whether it be lung, heart, liver or even diapghram. Blood loss is simply the cause of the oxygen depletion.

Head and spine shots obviously have a different dynamic.

Gut can be infection but usually O2 depletion as well as the diaphragms ability to create pressure differnces in the cavity fail and thus the lungs can't fully inflate / deflate.

Many a deer has survived a very bloody single lung hit.

Watching that video, hadn't realize single bevels could be sharpened that way, that easily....

“The red pins that used a dog, didn't necessarily "require" one, some people don't track well. Some have easy access and use them.”

But you have to consider the source: if these were results from a swath of the population, well, maybe.. but this particular data set is from just one guy who specializes in finding the tricky ones, right? This is a thorough documentation of what happens when things go south. And probably nobody calls in a tracker when they’ve gotten the Red Carpet treatment.

I would quickly agree with those pointing out that we are only looking at points of entry, which tells only a fraction of the story. Also, unless verified by trail camera, it seems iffy to put much stock in reported POI on those green pins…

I would guess, though, that most of these shots were from tree stands, so the low hits probably never entered the thorax. Hits above the spine are going to miss vitals except at extremely close/steep range, so those high and low (top two and bottom two) rows account for looks like about all but about 6 of the green pins, and those roughly outline the scapula…. And along the line of the humerus. So that stretches the margin for error forward a bit. As long as you stay off the heavy bones of the shoulder.

Columns 6, 7 & 8, kept below the spine…. Not many calls but virtually all red pins.

exsanguination/hypovolemia I would think are the leading cause of death while bow hunting.

A tracker I met at a shoot told me when he recovers deer they are rarely hit where the hunter says he hit them.

Jed a tracker told me the same thing.

I posted on Facebook "traditional bowhunters" about people saying they shoot through scapula, I said it is rarely done and they wanted to hang me. That was my last post.

I have not read all the replies or the article, but haven't seen any mention of angle of entry.. one shot that is poor from one angle is dead dead from another. A hunters visual account can not be convincing evidence of what actually happened.. not lying, but not really seeing what happened. How often have you seen where you recovered an animal only to realize you didn't really hit where you thought?

I shoot heavier bows than the majority and have only had penetration issues when hitting too for forward. I don't believe there is enough draw weight or heavy enough arrow to account for all situations so it is best to shoot what you can comfortably master.

My name is Jim and I have a problem! I have developed an issue with choosing entry points too close to the shoulder.. I get fixated on the crease and it's all I can do to look away. Vitals are a bigger target just a little way behind the crease especially when angling forward. I vow to do better in the future! BigJim

You can bandy-about all the scientific terms (then we have to google them), or just know not to shoot for heavy boned areas. Blood loss, whether outside the body or inside keep oxygen from the brain, which is the real data center, and if it can't operate, well then?

Back when I was a teenager taking the Bowhunter's Safety Course, The instructor emphasized NOT to aim for the shoulder like Grandpa told you to so with a shotgun. He recomended just behind the crease of the shoulder (broadside), one quarter of the way up from the floor of the chest. Pick a hair and shoot it. I believe that to be about right.

agree on the thread title. hit the shoulder of a decent buck and bear, did not get either. was shooting mid to upper 50's draw weight and two blade heads at the time.

the arrow fell out of the deer, and i suspect he survived. the bear i suspect also survived but never found the arrow.

What’s the old saying, never say never. I’m sitting in chair looking at a P&Y mule deer buck in the wall that was the result of a shoulder shot. I realize it is an outlier and “one dot,” and only that. Few people would ever promote purposely taking a shot into the shoulder bone area with a bow. But stuff happens.

There was snow on the ground and it was a steep downhill at a mountain pass in December. He came moving through, following a larger buck that had made me on the open sidehill. The shot was a bit over 40 yards. The steep angle was downward, the arrow hit the scapula, penetrated about 12 inches, and the buck took off for 80 yards, stopped, and went down with a crash. The arrow took out the vessels above the heart.

Not all shots will always be perfect, except on the target butts. To mitigate when things happen, I try to stack the cards in my favor with the heaviest bow I can shoot comfortably and accurately with, use a heavy arrow, and a stout two-blade broadhead. The set-up was a 57 lb. longbow and an arrow, either POC or chundoo, tipped with a 160 grain Rib-trek weighing about 650 grains.

I would never advocate shooting through the shoulder and this not meant to justify it, only that in this one case it turned out positive, likely because of the equipment and not the hunter. I call it hedging the bet for that one time things aren’t as perfect as we would like. If you hunt long enough, it can happen to you.

Good topic, but with more variables than a professional sports betting card.

Those pins are on a broadside deer. They are rarely directly broadside and big Jim is right that angle of entry is very important

that's my fault George I'm a nurse and was poking fun at death caused by organ failure and mechanical organ which, I can only imagine is the one used by a guy named Giuseppe and his monkey

When I last hunted in Africa the PH told me that all his clients hit their animals behind the shoulder. He then went on to say the ass is also behind the shoulder. Lets see some pics of your shoulder hit animals

"Lets see some pics of your shoulder hit animals" X2.

You'd think "killing a couple hundred" would result in some great pics. But then again, I'm still waiting to see a picture of one of those hundreds of bears that I heard you can "practically throw an arrow through".

It’s getting pretty deep.

Yeah. Let’s see some of those shoulder hits.

Corax wrote"

"But you have to consider the source: if these were results from a swath of the population, well, maybe.. but this particular data set is from just one guy who specializes in finding the tricky ones, right?"

Ummm...no......it is actually from 50 trackers in seven states during the 2022 season. That is a pretty good sampling...

"As proof, Ohio hunter Joseph Tenney, who owns Creek Side Deer Recovery and has used his dogs to track archery-hit deer for a decade, produced a shot-placement chart based on data gleaned from just the 2022 season.

Tenney used information not only from his own experience, but also data from 48 other trackers spread across seven states. The chart features color-coded pins that indicate where the arrow struck the deer and the result:"

I stand corrected. Point being, this is the Epic Fails Reel. All of these pins represent data from tracking services and nobody calls a tracking service to find a buck that piled up within sight. Again, I’m not advocating for shooting at the bulk of the shoulder, but based on all of those pins (and more importantly, the places where there are few or none) it would appear that if you stray forward a bit (remaining inside the thoracic cavity) without hitting substantial bone, they go down fast.

Makes sense.

And where the pins are packed tight, that suggests NOT that column 9 is a good place to bit one, but that trackers are most often called in on deer hit in column 9 or aft of that.

I always shoot for the far shoulder, even if I half to wait for it to step forward for a clear shoot no shoulder..

Sometimes i think we just like to argue?....let me just ask one simple question..Why on earth WOULDN"T you try and avoid the shoulder?

seems like a reasonable idea...

Somebody mentioned about the shoulder blade not being the same throughout...proper medical terms aside...that is very true.

frankly it don't mean squat, what is called what. and yes shot angle would make a difference.

the flat thinner part of the shoulder blade, wouldn't be quite as hard to penetrate as say the little ridge that runs up it...etc,..

and bow poundage and arrow weight most certainly DOES make a difference.

We get on these..45 lb....the new 55# and is 35# enough? discussions. And while its true some faster bows can accomplish what a heavier poundage does. Not everyone shoots a super curve.

So?......here is some good old fashioned common sense advice.

1....avoid the shoulder blade if you can....

2...shoot the heaviest bow you can handle.

shade mt

Yep

Babysaph, Supernaut, and Sawtooth (Original) X 2.

Definitely not my shot of choice, But I've taken several through the shoulder when that was the only shot I had.

All were quartering to, and arrows buried to the fletching, or passed completely through.

I never lost an animal with that shot, and most of them were D&D within sight.

But, I wasn't shooting a light weight bow, or using a light weight arrow.

Rick

Shot a muledeer doe at around 15-16 yards one time, that was hard quartering away.

Arrow went in the left side of the pelvis, and completely severed the right humerus just below the joint between it and the scapula.

She fell forward beside the arrow sticking in the ground beside her, and never moved again except for a couple of slow leg kicks.

Rick

On a broadside shot I aim for a spot about 3 inches straight above the elbow. One year I shot 3 deer, Mn, Co, and Wi and busted both shoulders on all 3. That was when I was shooting 75# bear t/d and 32" 2219's that weighted 650 gr.

Waiting for all those pictures to get posted.......

:)

I hunted for many years without ever taking pictures.

Never even thought of it.

Contrary to recent popular belief, many of us didn't start out in a digital world, and lived & hunted for very long times without it.

The age of having to prove everything with a picture is fairly young. :-)

Rick

"The age of having to prove everything with a picture is fairly young. :-)"

We will have to agree to disagree Rick. I'd be willing to bet that the phrase, "A picture is worth a thousand words" is a little older than "fairly young".

Call me skeptical but I've seen a lot outlandish BS posted here. Guys are free to post what they want and I'm free to not believe them based on empirical evidence or lack thereof.

Lies really only hurt the teller anyhow.

Well Jim, I grew up in an age where we generally took a man at his word. Times have obviously changed.

I really don't care if someone believes me, or not.

But, if it's that proof is important enough to "someone", I can sure oblige.

They would just have to pay me a visit. We'd have a good time too, but I can guarantee they would leave here with a different attitude.

It's amazing what a 100+# recurve can do with a 605gr arrow, and a Zephyr Sasquatch broadhead on it.

Rick

Pictures of pass through shoulder shots please. Come on Rick. I know you have pics of dead hogs to share with us. You just got a new camera

lots of variables,, hard enough to kill a deer anyway,, I think a 100 # bow will shoot through 2 deer,, dont need a pic,, :)

I shot through the shoulder of my elephant at 6 yards as he ran past me charging the PH and trackers in Zimbabwe. Had I not been shooting my 55 lb Schafer with 2000 grain arrows and 63 percent FOC it would not have been possible. And my left wing feathers were unscathed thanks to my fletch tape.

I remember a time years ago when I took people at their word. Then 38 years in law enforcement changed that really quick.

You need a pic if you said you did it. :)

Rick, I was raised to show respect and take a man I knew and trusted at their word.

I wasn't raised to be a fool and I'd be a fool to believe some of the outlandish BS that gets posted here by usually the same handful of guys.

I believe that 100# recurve and broadhead combo would do the job on just about anything. I'll take your word for it ;). Good luck if you're out after them hogs to film the hunt with your new camera.

Heavy tackle kicks butt. This ridiculously light bow I'm shooting now due to frickin should issues, has a rainbow trajectory, even at 20 yards. My #60 has WAY THE HELL more power than this little dipshit #35 twinkie stick I'm shooting right now..

"They would just have to pay me a visit. We'd have a good time too, but I can guarantee they would leave here with a different attitude."

I'd bet we would have fun. I'd also bet my attitude would be the same when I left. It's really not that bad I promise ;)

If I'm ever in Texas or you're ever in PA we would surely get together and shoot some arrows. I'll even take some pics to post!

My wife worked for CoSgsPD for 28 years. The common denominator of the people cops deal with can be pretty damn low. And the BS is correspondingly high. Endless, "Somebody else's fault." (that I have a real bad attitude and am an ignorant irresponsible sorry ass sack of ____) That pretty much covers it.

Yeah JR, I did just get a new camera. Just haven't had the opportunity to use it hunting yet.

Don't recall ever shooting a hog through the shoulders. Probably have, but we're not talking hogs.

We're talking deer, and they aren't anywhere near as tough, although that bow & arrow combo would probably do just fine on a hog too.

Jim, like I said - I guarantee we would have a good time. Hope it happens some day :-)

As far as the attitude thing is concerned, there's a real good chance I might show you some things you've may have never seen, so even if it wasn't a big attitude change, I can pretty much guarantee also, that there would at least be some lessening of skepticism. :-)

To be honest, I never thought about, or took any pictures until I had been on here for quite some time. I also realized fairly quickly after the picture thing got to being hot & heavy, that even pictures didn't/wouldn't satisfy some folks skepticism.

To many people believe that - "If they can't do it, no one can."

I remember not to terribly many years ago, where there was a discussion about head shots, and how the skull was just to hard to penetrate. I intentionally head shot a hog, got two holes (that would have been a complete pass through if not for the ground being closer than the length of the arrow), and I posted the pictures. There was still skepticism. :-)

Rick

I agree about the heavier bow being better for hunting. But if you want to kill things with a lighter bow it can be done. When I had my surgery in March and was hunting with a 38 lb bow the end of Sept. It was very hard work to get to that point but I wanted to hunt. Knowing that bow was light. I limited my shots to 10 yards or less and killed two WV bucks with it that fall. Just get close.

I found the head shot pictures.

Rick

While I was looking for that one, I found this one.

Where did that arrow "exit" ? :-)

That should "socket" was destroyed.

Also would have been a complete pass through had he not melted to the ground as the arrow was going through.

Rick

Both those were killed with the same bow, and arrow set up.

84# @ my draw Blackwidow PMA with 640 gr arrow, and 175 gr 3-blade (gasp) broadhead.

Great energy bow, but nowhere near the delivered energy of the 105 with the 605's.

Rick

I wish it weren't so, but I don't get to hunt as much as I used to. Hope to change that sometime soon.

I'll say this though - the bow I am currently shooting is only 65# @ my draw, and I'm shooting 617 gr arrows from it. It blows that 84# Blackwidow out of the water in performance of speed, and delivered energy of the arrow.

Rick

I'm not saying you shouldn't avoid the shoulder.

For most, I wouldn't advise a shoulder shot.

I simply saying that - with the right equipment, and shot placement it is "Very Doable".

It's up to you to know whether you have the horsepower to do it, or not, and that right there's where the common sense factor weighs in heaviest.

Rick

The shoulder blade can be thick or thin depending where you hit it. I shot a big doe a few years ago and hit her right on the shoulder. Arrow penetrated about an inch back of broadhead and fell out in 30 yards. I shot another one slightly different and arrow went through both shoulder blades. She fell in 20 yards. That one was through the thin shoulder blade. Both of these were with a 62# longbow. I now shoot 49# and make sure I'm back a bit more.

I've always been taught to have the front leg forward before shooting . This reduces the chance for a shoulder hit. Also Dr. Asbys advocates for the Tonto tip which he says makes the broadhead slide better around the shoulder and breaks bones better . This makes sense to me. Also if you want a lot of blood the liver hit is best. But no one I know advocates for this . But it's been my observation that some of the quickest kills have come from liver hits. Jimmyjumpup I laughed when I read your post. Wow , shooting an elephant at 6 yards and having it charge your ph and trackers and you . Well let's just say the less said the better!

I don't know why I have felt the need to prove anything, but here's more.

This was with a 75# PMA, with (if memory serves) a 625 gr arrow.

It did not blow through, but went through the shoulder on the exit, and stopped with around 3 - 4 inched of the arrow sticking out on the exit side. Broke off on a tree during the death run of about 25 yards.

Rick

"You need a pic if you said you did it. :)"

Or you could post a picture of someone else's mount and claim it is yours...like someone did...once upon a time...in a fairy tale....

Here's a picture referenced in my above comment and shoulder shots.

This is getting to be a pretty rough crowd to deal to.

And a second photo as a proof of life (or death), of a kudu hit in the right shoulder that clipped the bone, was slightly deflected, and was a lung shot. These are the only two shoulder shots I have had. For what it is worth...

Nice pictures scoop!

"LOL"

I hear you Shawn, pictures steal an animals soul. It's ok to take their meat but not their soul. And for you I gather that would be literally hundreds of deer souls. Hats off to you keep fighting the good fight.

I wish I had never even opened this topic, much less respond to it.

But, I did, so I'm here to the end. :-)

Rick

Same Rick, same.

Nice pics by the way. How far away was that pig you head shot and was he facing you?

Thanks Jim.

Facing me from around 8 to 10 yards.

The shot was from a 15ft ladder stand.

That was the third of three pigs I killed at that spot in about a one hour period. I had just set the stand, and hadn't been in it long before they started showing up.

I set it up on a crossing of a couple of heavily traveled trails, and threw a couple hand fulls of corn right at the intersection.

Rick

Rick, how far did that pig go after the shot and what condition was the broad head in?

I never hunted hogs, would like to someday. I glad we don't have them in PA though.

That pig hit the ground right where shot, and only quivered a bit.

That broadhead is the one I wound up killing 21 pigs with before I finally retired it. It didn't receive any damage until pig #19 when it got bent. I straightened it, and killed two more. I could pull it out of retirement, and use it still today with no problem.

This pig was somewhere in the middle of that retirement number, but don't remember for sure. She just has a notch in that broadhead to commemorate her introduction to it.

Rick

What type head Rick, 3 blade I assume?

Are you able to eat all of them or just sows under a certain size. I've heard guys say the boars are too rank to eat same with sows over a certain size.

What I wanna know is if there’s any good meat left after a shoulder has been blasted by an arrow that’s “only” 5.8 GPP??

I’ll bet those clock in at something close to what would be dry-fire speeds at my DL!

[[[ "You can not seem to understand that I did that to show you. guys how easy it is to post a pic of an animal when you are not in it. That was my point Pdid. last time I am explaining it." ]]]

I got that when you did it, and it's a good point. You might could have made it a little more understandable though.

I could take scoop's photo with the kudo above, that him out of the picture, and put myself in it. No one would be the wiser, and I'm just an amateur at it.

The age of digital imagery (both still imagery, and video) has surpassed reality by leaps & bounds, so you still have to be fairly trusting even when pictures are posted.

Rick

Well this posting went down a far too predictable path...

[[[ "What type head Rick, 3 blade I assume?

Are you able to eat all of them or just sows under a certain size. I've heard guys say the boars are too rank to eat same with sows over a certain size." ]]]

175 gr VPA 3-blade.

In some areas, you can eat even the larger pigs, and they'll be pretty good. In some areas like where I am, they turn carnivorous pretty quickly, and usually anything over 100 lbs isn't fit to eat. I like them in the 40 lb range, and cook them whole on my smoker.

Rick

Like I said, I straightened it, and killed two more before retiring it. It's still plenty good to use, but I would hate to lose it. It's a great keepsake.

Rick

You definitely got your money's worth out of that head!

A whole smoked wild pig sounds excellent but I'm still happy we don't have them in PA.

I can barely use my computer. I sure couldn’t figure out how to doctor a picture lol

[[[ "A whole smoked wild pig sounds excellent but I'm still happy we don't have them in PA." ]]]

I marinade them in pineapple juice over night, then inject them with it right before cooking.

I quarter up apples & oranges, pack them in the cavity, then hog ring the cavity closed.

I use the same rub, that I use on my briskets, and smoke them the same as I do brisket.

It's delicious. :-)

Honestly - As far as deer go, I am usually just after a big buck, which is why I don't shoot many deer. But, I love hunting pigs, and it's year round big game hunting, so I'm glad we have them.

Rick

Dan in MI wrote:

"The red pins that used a dog, didn't necessarily "require" one, some people don't track well. Some have easy access and use them."

Agree 100%. Many people out hunting don't know enough about blood trailing deer...can be lack of experience, lack of mentoring or inattention to details, like accurately marking the spot where you hit the deer and the last place you saw the deer after the shot.

If people need help, I’m glad to know that are getting it.

But again, if you look at where the pins are and where they aren’t… either hardly anybody ever hits deer a in the general area where most of us pick our spot, or the people who DO hit their deer where they were aiming generally don’t have reason to call a tracker.

That anyone would argue that these pins indicate where we should be TRYING to hit just beggars disbelief. What column 9 DOES illustrate is that those “a little back” hits really are deadly…. Eventually. But having bumped a couple of animals from their first beds/stop-and-look-back spots, I can only say that I made it a lot harder on myself than it probably needed to be.

I won't enter into the Shoulder blade argument other than to say with bows around 50-55# i've had enough mixed results to know i would prefer not to hit the shoulder blade, and shot angle even just the slightest difference seems to matter.

That being said i have also shot heavier poundage bows, meaning over 60# and that's another argument i won't enter into other than to say......If you think for one minute on average day in and day out that a 50# bow can do anything a 75# bow can do.....Your sorely mistaken.

A STIFF heavy arrow shot properly from a heavy poundage bow is a whole different arrow than a arrow shot from a 50# bow.

Everybody talks about arrow speed....you want penetration?...why not discuss the difference in stiffness between a 2219 arrow going 190+ fps out of a 75# bow and weighing 600 +gr and having an energy of around 56ft lbs.... Super kodiak

compared to a 50# super kodiak, shooting a 2016 arrow a tad under 500 gr..around 185fps, and with roughly 37 ft lbs of energy..?

arrow stiffness, makes a difference, as well as speed weight,energy etc...

For the average bowhunter shooting 50# ??.....yea avoid the shoulder if possible....

I have 85 and 90 lb bows and shoot 850 grain hickory arrows from them. They shoot the same trajectory my lighter weight bows do at the same gpp but hit way, way harder. It's incredible to me how those heavy arrows fly so flat and bury so deep in the target. They're on the edge of my ability to draw and be accurate with so I've never hunted with them... but even if I did, I'd still try to stay away from the shoulder.

Figure I better quote some of the things I said in this topic "before" I get accused of being an "advocate of shoulder shots".

[[[ "Definitely not my shot of choice." ]]]

[[[ "I'm not saying you shouldn't avoid the shoulder.

[[[ "For most, I wouldn't advise a shoulder shot." ]]]

[[[ "I'm simply saying that - with the right equipment, and shot placement it is "Very Doable"." ]]]

[[[ "It's up to you to know whether you have the horsepower to do it, or not, and that right there's where the common sense factor weighs in heaviest." ]]]

Rick

You shouldn't HAVE to do that, but I understand why you did... we can't take reading comprehension for granted.

It’s fun to poke Rick a little, though… With his DL, a 600+ grain arrow and literally twice the weight that I ordinarily draw….

As Jeff & Shade said…. The rules are just different when you add an extra 100 fps.

Jeff X2

My Pick-a-Bow giveaway proved reading comprehension can’t be taken for granted!!! LOL!

[[[ "Lol Rick, yes, a man has to know his limitations. :)

The good thing is, know one has to be anywhere near the shoulder for a double lung shot that results in a dead critter in about 15ish seconds. When you know you have the horsepower and durability to break through that ball joint then go for it, but I don’t believe most of us are in that category." ]]]

Spot on.

Even though "I know" I can do it, I don't want to, but will if I have to.

Rick

Kingwouldbe always put his money where his mouth is. Dude knew his stuff and wasn’t ‘fraid to prove it.

Where’d he go, anyway?? Always enjoyed his posts.

[[[ "Where’d he go, anyway?? Always enjoyed his posts." ]]]

Dave got tired of the BS.

TTT for those who requested pictures. Specifically those who haven't commented since they got what they asked for. :-)

Rick

Sawtooth (Original) : "Where’d he (kingwouldbe) go, anyway?? Always enjoyed his posts."

+1. His hog arrow builds were highly detailed and entertaining.

I thought of you today, Rick, when I drilled a blackbuck 3D square between the eyes, right on the seam from the mould.

Too bad I can’t take credit for a good shot on that one. ;)

But it sure woulda kilt him.

I was thinking about this thread while I was out on the course today…. I’m not saying we should shoot AT the shoulder, but there sure is a lot to be said for TIGHT behind it….

And for a gapstinctive shooter, straight up the correct leg is kinda hard to beat…..

LOL Baylee. Surely you could have come up with a better response than that.

I have no deer shoulder shot pictures, but everyone knows deer have nowhere near the bone structure of pigs.

I'll leave it at that.

Rave on. :-)

Rick

Of course it was. :-)

I've only killed two deer in the last 3 years.

Sorry, no shoulder shots, and no pictures, but knowing you, even if I had them you would make some feeble attempt at picking them apart.

Rick

Here's another shoulder shot pig, in case anyone is interested.

The shot was quartering to, and the entry wound is the one where I am in the picture.

Went all the way through, and stuck in a mesquite tree.

Not a huge pig, but you would be hard pressed to find a whitetail anywhere with his bone density.

Rick

That was with a 65# bow at my draw, and 630gr arrows with 175gr Bishop single bevel broadheads. Arrow did even seem to slow down until it hit the tree, and it blew that shoulder up. :-)

Rick

are they dead or just sleeping,,:)

“That was with a 65# bow at my draw and 630 grain arrows….”

I ran the numbers in the calculator. To match the velocity, 630 grains from #65 at your draw is about the same as 630 grains coming off of #89 at mine. Unless I underestimated your DL. I was thinking 32”….

Different set of rules.

“ LOL Baylee. Surely you could have come up with a better response than that.“

It was pretty lame but there’s no satisfying a troll…

That’s impressive penetration..I’m glad I am still able to shoot 60# with 2117’s just in case I need it, especially on elk.

Not everybody bothers taking pictures...i know that's pretty hard for some to fathom.

sometimes i do.....sometimes i don't. sometimes i post a pic on here, sometimes i don't.

I never felt the need to demand a pic from a guy just so he can prove to me.

I figure if he's lying....that's his problem not mine.

never hurts to give people the benefit of the doubt, and if your wrong?...usually the only one hurt, is the deceiver.

Kisatchie, study your skeletal picture, then study this picture of the same skeletal structure of shoulder, and spine scaled, and rotated to match the posture of my pig.

The red circle shows where the actual cut from the broadhead was on entry.

It literally blew that joint up. There were bone fragments all inside the wound.

Thanks for proving my point by the way.

Also, might I suggest prevagen? My 92 year old mother in law swears by it. :-)

Rick

Here is my shoulder hit from this season. 55# Stalker recurve, 600 grain Grizzly Stik arrow with 29% FOC and 250 single bevel Aboyer head up front. Shot was roughly 16 yards, split scapula about 4 1/2 inches. Arrow penetrated about 12" and buck ran around 60 yards total. Moderate to good blood trail.

The first deer I ever shot ( a large doe ) I shot the shoulder and when I showed the deer

to my friend and his buddy, he took the front leg and rotated it 360 degrees and said

to his buddy jokingly, look what a 30-06 does to a deer. Regard less I don't aim for the

shoulder.

Not a shoulder shot, and a small pig.

But, how hard ya think that tail bone is? Pretty dang hard I suspect.

Around 18 - 20 yards from a 15 ft ladder stand.

Rick

Darn good eating too.

I would have invited Kisatchie to come eat with me, but he would have thought it was tofu. Can't have that. LOL

Rick

“ I would have invited Kisatchie to come eat with me, but he would have thought it was tofu.“

Priceless!! LOL!

Lmao.

I've found you a stand up guy Rick, always did. Never needed pictures to clarify that for me.

Wish we had oinkers to hunt here in Pa.

Wonder what pig rawhide would be like on a bow?

Kisatche, my not killing deer isn't due to not having the opportunity to do so. It's all about selection, and desire. I just haven't had either of those fit the bill of my conservative ways of deer hunting in a while, and don't have pictures of deer kills when I wasn't so conservative.

I'm darn sure not going to kill one just to prove a point to a degenerate who don't understand half (maybe less) of what he reads.

I've posted pictures of pig kills to illustrate a point about shoulder shots. Anyone with half a brain, and some common sense knows, that pig bones are extremely more dense than those of deer (even big deer).

In the mean time - I have those pigs to fulfill the blood lust, and the belly, but I'll be sure to post a deer kill picture when I decide to shoot one.

By the way - How old are you? I suspect you to be younger than me, and highly recommend you start that regimen of that prevagen now, because (if not) at your rate of cognitive decline, by the time you reach my age you're liable to be a mental vegetable.

Rick

LOL ! Bit touchy today, are we Baylee?

Noticed you were gone for quite a while, and now that your back, I remember why I didn't miss you.

I started this whole thread to have an intelligent and respectful discussion about shoulder shots...then the usual suspects showed up with the predictable outcome.

And I am just fine with my elk hunts so far! Look at the smile on my face at 11,000 feet!

There's a picture for you!

Sorry, just getting in from hauling some firewood up to the house.

There ya go again Baylee, with that "lack" of reading comprehension.

The comparison of the pigs shoulders to that of deer shoulders was for a reason. A good one. While everyone else gets it, "you don't", or you choose ignore it.

Really - Is it intentional, or are you just really that dumb?

How do you know whether those pigs were baited, or not? You don't, and not all of them were. The one where we were playing musical skeletons wasn't. If you'll try to be a "good little boy", I might share the story with you. :-)

Besides all that, what does baiting have to do with shot placement, and avoiding the deer's shoulders?

I'm 6'1", and at time of that picture with me in it I was in the area of 250 lbs. I'm leaning on that pig with my left arm, and propping him up with my left leg. Little pig? Yeah not a real big one, but not to small either. :-)

You're feeble attempts at insulting me are massively failing. I'm actually enjoying watching you flail in your frustration, and foolishness as you grasp at straws to give yourself some credibility.

I'm telling ya - Prevagen. Get some.

Rick

P.S.

Got any pictures of your pig kills? I like seeing LDPs of pigs

Back on topic, and concerning the pin chart.

I didn't read the article (yet), but I bet it don't take into account of what the posture of the animal was, or the angle of the shot.

There are some of those green pins in the shoulder area, that would result in a dead, Dead, DEAD deer if I shot it there. Especially if quartering to a bit.

It all seems pretty subjective, and without any indication of situational circumstances.

But, I could be wrong, because I've only killed one deer in the last three years, and I don't have a picture of it :-)

Rick

What Bluesman says "know of not one bowhunter who shoots for the shoulder"

Why's it take 163 posts to answer a relatively simple question.

I must have missed something.

If I am hunting with a compound or crossbow with a heavy foc and tough broadhead I aim for the shoulder WHEN they are quartering to me and AND the are close. I have not lost one hit this way. I have not shot a deer this way with a long bow or recurve however. Also I would NOT aim for the shoulder in any other position such as broadside.

I must have missed something."

Nothing of substance...believe me.

“And one very interesting point, how would you know where exactly the arrow hit the deer on non recovered deer. ”

My impression was that (on the green pins) they got subsequent images of the same deer on trail cams.

But 100% agreed that where the arrow pierces the hide is of little importance compared to where it crosses the mid-line, and I did not get the impression that that is what was being documented. So there’s that.

Most of the thread falls under that analogy.

So arrow placement is important? No, tell me it's not true.

If you have already registered, please

sign in now

For new registrations

Click Here