This parcel of ground was purchased from a corporation /co then was put into a public hunting through the pa game commission. After reading what the game commission says about the private parcels it is more or less for the land owner and a few select people. They have cameras and is checked by the game wardens for misuse littering . I thought the game commission promoted hunting there is no hunting here unless the owner and one or two others .the sign reads public access cooperator then underneath it says the owner has entered into an the pennsylvania game commission to allow public hunting . please respect the landowner by asking permission prior to entering and avoid damage to the property.Well as you can see it says posted keep out no trespassing . I know of only one person that hunts there the owner .

If you have reason to believe the land owner isn't living up to their agreement with the state you need to report it.

I was told by the game commission he can allow only who he want and as many as he wants. To me it is a private hunting club with the help of the game commission.I do know one person hunting there.

Have you politely asked permission yet ?

Have you tried to ask the land owner? And I understand the rules without supervision the land could get over ran by hunters and become a danger. I was checking into gov. Help on a pond I would half to let so many people a year to fish.

That's not what I'd call public land access.

That’s pretty pathetic if the guy is getting any kind of state support for maintaining his own private Honeyhole…

They do the same thing out West… There are various programs which make it look like the landowners are somehow cooperating with the state to ensure public access and it’s exactly the opposite. Just rubs me the wrong way from start to finish…

I asked as soon as i knew and was told no way it was just for himself and his family . Well i worked with the one that is allowed to hunt there now. I spring gobbler hunted there i killed one there several years ago. It is tough hunting most of it is a deep canyon it was a old stone quarry. there is some woods but it joins ground that is agriculture and is fields .

There's a considerable amount of information on line about the program.

The information states the land owner is required to allow "reasonable" public access. Kind of vague.

Well i read it and it is what it is . It is the land owners choice bottom line so take your ball and go home .Now just remember the land owner we have a few like to post there ground and hunt on others .

Buy your own land. Then you can manage it like you want.

Well i have plenty of other places i can go you are not understanding the point it is being co managed by our game comm and is basically a private club .

From my reading this is one of thousands that the game comm has its been going for decades it is just politics and money that fuel these deals.

money, politics, loopholes??!!! why I never,,,,,,,,,,

https://www.pgc.pa.gov/HuntTrap/Hunting/HunterAccessProgram/Pages /default.aspx

"the Game Commission will determine if limitations allow for reasonable access"

The definition is in the hands of the Game Commission, therefore, one hunter is not the "reasonable" access implied by the "public" signage, and state benefits/public funds, are not being issued as intended. A regulation change with a minimum number of people to qualify for the state benefits is in order. Otherwise, is to see public funds support private concerns.

Contact the Pennsylvania Bowhunters Association and see if they have any experience with this situation.

I wonder how many other people are milking the state funds this way.

Joe, I had permission for a place very similar to that. I could bowhunt the hard to access part only. And only in early archery season. No rifle season or turkey hunting. The property is sold now. I never did understand the how or why the PGC was involved other than maybe for their liability coverage.

Joe, why not contact the local WCO and ask him to go with you when you ask permission?

Joe, I would follow Phil's advice above regarding reaching out to the local WCO.

It's been my experience that wardens (both fish and game) are very helpful and informative any time I've ever dealt with them or had questions.

Good luck and please let us know what you find out.

I’ve done exactly what What Phil suggested it works

The bigger picture is the interesting thing here. It sure sounds like a scam that is occurring on many properties around the state, and that the state game commission is complicit in basically lying to the public; using taxpayer dollars and calling it "public access" when nothing could be farther from the truth.

And they wonder why people don't trust government...

Where is this Joe? It's not a State Game Lands, so it must just be a landowner cooperative? There are standards to be followed to be in that program and there are many of those programs throughout the state, many of them down on the east side of the state. One parcel doesn't define how it operates as a whole. I'd like to know more about that area.

It's on the quarry road north of my house NESL had it send sold it.

Seems part of the Hunter Access Program I venture to guess. Here's what is in the State's information about that. It does seem a bit contradictory since it gives the landowner the right to refuse hunting on an area that is supposed to allow hunter access?!??? More questions than answers.

""Landowner Responsibilities More than 13,000 separate parcels of private lands are currently enrolled in the agency's Hunter Access Program. These properties, located in most of the state's 67 counties, cover more than 2.18 million acres. In exchange for the incentives and benefits provided by the Game Commission, landowners have the following responsibilities:

Provide reasonable access for hunting and trapping. Reasonable access is defined as allowing access for at least two of the following categories: Deer and Bear, Turkey, Small Game, and/or Trapping. Limitations may be implemented on these categories, however, the Game Commission will determine if limitations allow for reasonable access.

If restrictions or limitations are implemented, it is the responsibility of the landowner to enforce these on their property. Cooperating landowners must allow the enrolled property to be identified on the Game Commission’s Mapping Center. Identification is done by a dot on the map, no landowner names, addresses, or phone numbers are provided on the website or Mapping Center.

Allow for free Hunter Access signage to be placed on the enrolled property at logical access points so hunters can identify the property.

Landowner Rights

A common misperception of the Game Commission’s Hunter Access Program is that cooperating landowners forgo their rights as landowners. Enrolling in the Hunter Access Program only means that the landowner is willing to provide reasonable access to their property for hunting and trapping. The landowner retains the right to require hunters and trappers to obtain permission to access their property. The Game Commission makes a variety of signs available to cooperating landowners to facilitate access issues.

Landowner Benefits The Game Commission works closely with cooperating landowners to ensure their participation in the program is beneficial to the landowner, hunters and trappers, and wildlife. Cooperating landowners have found that there are many advantages to enrolling property in the Hunter Access Program. In addition to allowing the continuation of hunting traditions and heritage, tangible benefits include:

Discounted Landowner Hunting License: Cooperating landowners with 80 or more contiguous acres qualify for a discounted hunting license.

Landowner Antlerless Deer Licenses: Cooperating landowners, with 50 or more contiguous acres of land within the county of application, may obtain one antlerless deer license. These licenses are issued by the County Treasurer in the county in which the property resides. If qualifying acreage is located within a county with two or more wildlife management units, the applicant selects the management unit he or she desires. Free Tree and Shrub Seedlings: The Game Commission may furnish beneficial tree and shrub seedlings to cooperating landowners that demonstrate suitable planting sites. Tree and shrub seedlings are offered through the Game Commission’s Howard Nursery.

Free and Reduced-cost Wood Products: Cooperating landowners may receive free and reduced- cost wood products from the Game Commission’s Howard Nursery. Wood products include sign backer boards and artificial nest boxes, which include species information and nest box placement information.

Free Game News Subscription: Cooperating landowners receive a complimentary subscription to the Pennsylvania Game News, the Commission’s monthly magazine about hunting and wildlife in Pennsylvania.

Free Habitat Technical Assistance and Management: Cooperating landowners may receive free technical assistance and habitat management plans written by agency biologists. As funding allows, the agency offers free habitat improvement and management implementation including, but not limited to, invasive species management, young forest management, native grassland establishment, and healthy forest management.

Law Enforcement: Cooperating landowners receive patrolling and enforcement of game law by Pennsylvania Game Wardens. These patrols reduce illegal ATV use, littering and dumping, and various other game law violations.

Liability Protection: Cooperating landowners receive liability protection through the Recreational Use of Land and Water Act. Free Program Signage: Cooperating landowners are required to post signage identifying the property as a cooperator in the Hunter Access Program. A few of the free program signs are displayed below."

That's a heck of a program. Makes no sense, but a heck of a program.

I read all that before I posted any thing. Bottom line the land owner can and does have the say who can hunt PERIOD .SO I see no reason to defend the game commission here . There is a perk somewhere .they say they not pay the land owner .maybe you and niel need to put your ground in then we will find out how it works .

The land owner here is well connected so money talks and the rest walk .

Joe, if you read what I posted, you would see I said.."" It does seem a bit contradictory since it gives the landowner the right to refuse hunting on an area that is supposed to allow hunter access?!??? More questions than answers.""

That's not a defense of anyone or anything, it is, as I mentioned, more questions than answers.

I did read it and the game commission is doing there usual just saying one thing and doing another. I talked to the law enforcement/ Game warden and was given the same line you posted. It's is business as usual here they pretty much do what they can get away with .

The signs alone are contradictory So saying there is an agreement then below keep out is stupid and allowing this is worse yet .You can put sugar on this but it still Wrong .

Get an attorney and sue them. Sounds like they could let a couple buddies or relatives hunt which they probably already did. Wht doe the game commission do for them? I may have missed that.

If the game commission is not doing anything for the landowner I would not do it. Just opens the landowner up to lawsuits .

JR, go to the game commission website, and read 'hunter access program'. They have a no liability clause, and they give the landowner access to free plantings, and even help through biologist suggestions for how to develop and maintain healthy environments for all wild game. I suspect that if the landowner denies access, then they may forfeit the right to the no liability part, but that's up to lawyers and not people like me. That's why I said more questions than answers.

Geesh, you have an infinite amount of information on just about everything right at your fingertips. No excuse to not know, if you really want to know something.

OK George we understand point taken The problem is NOBODY I CONTACTED will give has answers other than what is written. So who has the answers the truth is they been down this road before and have won in court and they know they can get away with it.So as long as no one challenges it it is all good .I personally cannot see a few free scrubs and some free patrolling for people littering a big enough perk to get in the deal there is more to it than what we know .

Joe, it seems you’ve gotten to the point where you don’t feel you can pursue this any further. Honestly, complaining about it here won’t solve any problems. From the way you described it the program doesn’t seem to favor hunters, only the landowner.

You could always go to the Game Commissioner from your region and see if there is any interest in looking more closely at this landowner or the entire program. Or you can just let this one go. You guys are lucky in Western PA because you have lots of land to hunt.

I could care less about what happens in PA or other states. I am sure not looking it up. You already did it.I will say this. A smart landowner will take advantage of it when he has say on who hunts. I would let my friends and relatives that never hunt have permission. LOL. I may have to look into the tree plantings. I will look up to see if our state does it.

Unfortunately that version of government may not be uncommon. Maine's is similar in that the F&W agency assists landowners with getting their land posted and runs a program using public tax dollars to do it, basically promoting the idea that private land owners have the absolute right of exclusion and may do so with the state's blessing/help/public funding...thus creating their own hunting preserves at the exclusion of others and at taxpayer expense. This situation has been discussed with the agency. Their retort is that if one (meaning a hunter/sportsman) is disappointed with how the state runs state business then they should find another hobby. How's that for a responsible government management strategy/response?

Aside from the issue of poor and unreasonable representation for license buyers and the general public there's also the matter of promoting and applying an unreasonable policy with regard regard to accessing public property. By public property I'm not talking about the land, I'm talking about the wildlife on the land (landowners don't own the wildlife). Whether this private hunting preserve strategy represents a legal 'taking' (via refusing access to public property while exploiting that property for private gain with state assistance) hasn't that I know of been thoroughly examined/defined, I suspect that eventually it will...in court. In the meantime all one can do is make their voice known to their state officials and hold them accountable for promulgating exclusionary policies on the public's dime.

This is what I would do.

Get as many people as possible to ask for permission.

Once you have 100% denial for a large group, then start the conversation with central office of your Game Commission, not the locals. if that stalls then head to the lawyers office, again get all those denied for a class action type suit. Try and get others statewide too if your state hunting clubs will co-operate.

It may not just be you, this could be a statewide scam you can get fixed.

We have a similar program in MI, but never had any bad experiences. I think our limits are up front. Landowner approves x number of hunters and type of hunting. If you go out and all the tags are gone, Oh, well, try tomorrow.

Why not just go somewhere else to hunt and not go grey over the complications associated with this piece of land?

The poster has every right to be pissed about this if his tax dollars go to the landowner with no public benefit.

Or......just let it go and don't worry about it.

I think I read the landowner has the say as to who hunts. It would be easy to scam the gubment. Just make a list of people that have permission to hunt. They could be friends or relatives that don’t actually hunt. Lol. Then get the gubment services and turn down the hunters that really want to hunt. Sounds like a scam to me too.

As with any government program you can always figure a way to benefit your self more than was intended. Honest people are honest and just dont do shady deals .

Up date on the land posting I talked to my neighbor his ground borders the posted ground. The game Commission contacted my neighbor asking him if he was interested in the program he asked what was the advantages and it seems it is a easy access to patrol which they told me and set up cameras for violations etc .He did not get in the program.I think with 13000 of the sites in the state there would be enough. The game Commission is all about these sites not sure yet .

Here in Ohio we had Ohio Power property that was managed by the ODNR for hunting, fishing, and the like. To use their property you had to get a permission slip from them. Once you got it, it was supposed to be good for life. Then AEP bought the property and now you are supposed to get an annual renewal permit (new owners, new rules). The Wildlife Management Officers patrols the property. If you are caught on the property without a permit you were fined. I would assume on the property you are talking about, that people who are caught without a permit, if they were caught abusing the land, wouldn't be allowed to hunt this property in the future per the land owner, even though it is Public Use Property. It is still privately owned, but the owner is allowing public use, with permits you have to apply for, but is managed by the Department of Natural resources. Depending on the size of the property, the owner "may have" agreed to a limited amount of permits to be available. As an example 1,000, once that number has been obtained, you would have to wait till next year to try again, if you didn't get one. There have been other lands here in Ohio that use the same system as AEP over the years. DANNY

If you enroll your land in it, you get free Game News. Can’t beat that! Lol

To all those who say "don't worry yourself about it"...If one never stands against bad government and trashy public policy, nothing will ever be done about it.

To stand aside and let it happen is to be complicit in the act.

That is exactly how this country has been ruined. Everyone one says " what can you do" without ever trying to DO SOMETHING.

Free Game News? You can keep that propaganda rag!

Your are so right Mortis. Sagittas if you don’t fight the Government will tell you you when to wip your own BUTT!!!!!

Well that was MY thoughts just because it is a governing body does not make it ok or good . I will say this if you question the commission they get defensive real quick. Also it turns out the owner was able to not get a bond for liable damages on the property because of the quarry being there so that i think was he motive .

i really can't offer any advice i really am not familiar with the program.

I do however know of some property's that allow access across their land to access public owned land that is landlocked. But you can't actually hunt there, just cross it.

Self interest is a big motivator.

Well this ground is neither.The deal from my understanding is with the ground being a quarry huge hole with a big cliff drop off makes the land owner liable. So i was told he did not need a bond which when your ground is in the program from what i read kinda shifts that to the pa game comm. Plus it is easy revenue for the game comm to catch violations etc without going all over the place chasing down leads.Plus he rents the fields out to crop farming.

Big game commission meetings are usually open to the public. So do that and make a stink, Most of these places get a tax break and that should end. Thanks to you for bringing this to our attention.

Well it is kinda a don't ask don't tell thing if you know what I am saying .In my mind it was kinda a open door for hunters think again.I was quickly corrected by the comm that they are not about hunting they are about preservation of wildlife.And I reminded him that us hunters are supporting them .He jumped onto a what if it was my land ceniaro.

Hey Joe,

I believe you have a genuine beef and I support you. I

hope you get some traction with your complaint. I’ve heard quarries are great for dove hunting. Good luck!

you can stand up to the gubment but it could land you in jail. It sounds good to say stand up to them but that does not always work now.

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