From: Ruttinghard
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Date: 26-Nov-22 |
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What do you think has more “forgiveness” of say a short draw in a hunting scenario, or a pluck, etc. A tail tapered wood arrow with 125 grain head, or a fairly high FOC carbon (say 20-25% FOC)? I’ve heard higher FOC recovers much quicker and can “mask” a shooting error more. But I would think the tail taper of the wood arrow has another advantage there. Thoughts?
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From: 2 bears
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Date: 26-Nov-22 |
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Nothing seems to be forgiving of my mistakes. The arrow goes where it was pointed last no matter where I want it to go. ;<) >>>----> Ken
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From: Lastmohecken
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Date: 26-Nov-22 |
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It seems like carbon lasts longer, I love wood arrows, but I have never had any that really held up to a lot of abuse. As far as forgiving I am thinking the same thing, it goes where I last pointed it.
As far as forgiving goes, I am fairly skeptical as to the so- called forgiveness of bows in general, also. I have always heard and read about how much more forgiving a longbow is vs. a recurve. But I am not convinced it's true. At least I don't think it true in my case.
I think maybe the arrow is far more important than the bow. If it's tuned for that bow or fletched up pretty good it flies. Of course, there's a lot more to it than that, tiller, nocking point location, brace height, etc. But then again, I am no expert, and don't claim to be one.
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From: grouchy 62
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Date: 26-Nov-22 |
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Tapered wood shafts seems to correct faster and should have more forgiveness. But nothing can make up for poor aimed arrow. Your release can help for this problem.
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From: felipe
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Date: 26-Nov-22 |
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You will never find wood shafts with the consistency of carbon so getting a quiver full to fly the same might be easier, but in my experience I say the carbon shaft is less accepting of a short draw, they tend to become stiff real quick.
Empirically, I shoot mostly wood and blame them for my misses and they generally forgive me.
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From: Candyman
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Date: 26-Nov-22 |
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Good one Felipe!
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From: Corax_latrans
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Date: 26-Nov-22 |
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LOL….
Well played!
Seems to me that high FOC will mask a multitude of sins, so I suppose that’s probably the answer, since you can get a much higher FOC with a carbon shaft than with wood.
But honestly, it has been so long since I shot a wood arrow (other than a flu-flu), it’s kind of hard to say…. So the best answer is to shoot which ever you like. Honestly, it’s arguably a good thing to be able to see that feedback when you’ve done it wrong. That’s why a lot of the guys here will keep a few bare shafts in their quiver at all times.
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 26-Nov-22 |
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Carbon resists flex, and recovers from flex quickly. That doesn't mean it's best, it's just the characteristic of carbon as an arrow shaft. The most consistent arrow hands-down is aluminum, due to its make up where wall thickness can be precise, not wound with a glued matrix. Wood is wood, and can vary withing the same long they are cut from, but they are still very accurate in capable hands.
Forgiveness is a hard thing to figure out since most folks have different views of what it is anyway. The best way to have a forgiving arrow is to have good solid form to start with. It's amazing how many issues that can resolve. ;) Carbon, if chosen properly and tuned, will be just as forgiving as most any other arrow, whether you want to believe it or not.
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From: DanaC
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Date: 26-Nov-22 |
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IMO, 'forgiveness' is best achieved from arrows that are borderline 'soft', spine wise. And many (most) carbon shooters are using arrows that are borderline 'stiff.'
I'd bet cash money that the average carbon shooter, if he dropped one spine class, would shoot better. (And yeah, I realize that all you Lake Woebegon kids are above average ;-) )
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From: felipe
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Date: 26-Nov-22 |
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Yeah, Lake Woebegone, where arrows are stiff and bows are all cut past center and there is no forgiveness.
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From: DanaC
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Date: 26-Nov-22 |
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;-)
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From: fdp
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Date: 26-Nov-22 |
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In the words of Gilman Keasey "nothing will cover up a bad release".
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From: shandorweiss
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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First of all, it is possible to get wood arrows that are as closely spined and grain weighted as carbon. Sometimes even more so. I have several sets that are all the exact same # of spine and the exact same grain weight. +/- zero.
Secondly... and I'm surprised more people don't know this... wood arrows shoot better and are more forgiving from bows with windows cut to or before center. Carbon arrows are more forgiving shot from bows with windows cut past center. This is not my idea. Stu Miller, the creater of the dynamic spine charts, discovered and stated this. I've found it to be true. I only shoot wood arrows so if I get a bow with a window cut past center, I use a thicker plate. Helps every time.
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From: shade mt
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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i was just about to type basically the same thing shandorweis..you beat me to it.
your average carbons run stiffer and are geared more toward compounds, and center shot bows.
archers shooting recurves and longbows have learned you can take advantage of carbons as well if you use less spine and load the front with weight.
i would agree with dana....most probably use arrows to stiff, which very easily happens with carbons.
i wouldn't argue that good carbons are more consistent, more durable etc....and that consistent straightness weight etc...does lead to better accuracy, however slight that may be.
but one thing you cant get around....is that to buy a dozen good carbons, add the weight, broadhead etc...turns into an investment.
i make my own....wood i cut to length, they don't have to be long to be the right spine, don't have to add weight, fletch easily with plain old duco.... with todays high inflation, i probably got 6.00 -7.00 a piece in my arrows. i dont shoot rocks so yea they last, my oldest arrows are wood.
carbons on the other hand...require something, to get them heavy enough, and will run me 15.00 to 20.00 a piece hunt ready.
both will land in my bullseye...both will kill a deer just the same.
i use both.....
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From: GUTPILEPA
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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I don’t know where you guys get all your info from on carbon’s they are not that expensive matter of fact a lot of them are cheaper than woodland aluminum do your research you still need a nock a insert and a head on on all !!
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From: Jinkster
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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I've been back and forth with the wood vs cf thing a few times now and bottom line for me?...I'd hafta be more geared towards arts & crafts than archery to hold any love (or tolerance) for wood arrows and?...
I'm not.
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From: Jeff Durnell
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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Wood arrows... free
Nock... 10 cents, unless self-nocked, then $0
Field point... 25 cents
Broadhead... $3.50
Total... $0.35 to $3.60 per arrow.
I have no opinion regarding the original question though since I've never used a carbon arrow.
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From: B.T.
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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I find the smaller diameter shafts are more forgiving because they bring the arrow more to center shot. The material doesn't seem to matter as much.
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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Again, define forgiving, it will be different for nearly everyone who gives their opinion, at least a little bit. What you seem to be looking for with that term is an arrow that will hit the center when you screw up. That seems to go right back to consistent form once again, not arrow material. Good form will forgive whatever arrow you choose.
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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Jeff, you haven't bought nocks or field points for a while, eh?
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From: Jeff Durnell
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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No I haven't, George, it's been many years, 20?, and I was guessing. Maybe it was a little more, or less. Bought hundreds of various sizes, weights, colors, etc... also stuff like feathers, glue, bowstring spools, staves, horn, leather, rasps and other bowmaking tools that could wear out, guitar strings, picks, ammo, reloading stuff, etc. I tend to do that... stock up on stuff I know I'll continue to like and need. Ive yet to regret that quirk of mine. Worst part sometimes is trying to find it when I need it :^)
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From: Jack Whitmrie jr
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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I've shot them all Wood, Aluminum and Carbon. To answer your question none of them are forgiving to my mistakes. With that said I cannot afford good wood arrows because of lack of durability I'm constantly buying wood shafts. Aluminums are the most consistent shaft made, but they bend easily. So I'm now a carbon arrow guy. I can take one and shoot it roving all day - not bend or break them.
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From: Ruttinghard
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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Thanks for your thoughts guys! I appreciate them all. To be clear, I’m not neglecting form work. We are assuming one is striving for as perfect of a release as possible, in their practice to roll over into hunting. In hunting I find myself in a lot of positions and angles where my draw is shortened. I suppose if you are hunting open timber over bait, you don’t have that issue. Anyway, I feel like an arrow that corrects a bit sooner, or is a bit more flexible spine wise, could be the difference between a harvested animal or not. Whether your arrow is 3” off the mark or 4” can be the difference between getting the animal vs losing the animal. When I shot an ASL longbow for a bit, I found if I messed up a bit, the arrow was a foot and a half to the side. If I mess up with my RD longbow, it’s 6” off. That to me is a difference in forgiveness. I was just looking to see how different arrows acted as well. Especially spine wise in a short draw, odd angle, hunting scenarios. As in, an arrow showing less oscillations/paradox and hitting nearer to the point of aim vs another arrow.
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From: Ruttinghard
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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Also, I’m not promoting taking poor shots on living animals. I think if you practice odd draw positions a lot, you can know what your arrow will do. You start to see what you can and can’t get away with. I guess I’m just looking for the arrow that can absorb that variability with the least amount of issues. And then practice in those positions to know what it will do.
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From: Altek
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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Ruttinghard makes a good point about the effect that shooting from odd (i.e., different than 'normal') positions can have on accuracy, a necessity for most hunting. But I believe the arrow material (assuming they were tuned to the bow to begin with) has less to do with it than do variations in alignment caused by how the bow hand is positioned on the grip and especially how the string hand/wrist is positioned relative to the cant angle. These are things often overlooked but from shot to shot if canting changes then those hand position variables change as well, with greater affect on alignment, release and probably follow-through. Being aware of these effects and accounting for them during practice might help accuracy more than a change in arrow material would.
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From: Chairman
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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With wood arrows being more forgiving and longbows being more forgiving using both I could never miss if I tried.
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From: Ruttinghard
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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Those are good points Altek! I do shoot with a wide variety of cants, and try to maintain a similar upper body/shoulder position on them. But I don’t pay a ton of attention to hand/string position like you mentioned. I’ll spend more time thinking about that next shooting session, thanks for the tip!
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From: Silentstik
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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I like wood and carbon, but I would have to say that modern carbon shafts and the myriad of point weight and nock weight options make it easier to customize an arrow that would be more forgiving and or accurate if the person is capable. Don't see olympians shooting wood or aluminum any more for good reason. As for a comment about aluminum being staighter than carbon, that used to be so but is not the case now. That thing called nano technology has done things with carbon that the average person does not realize. .001 or better in current brands and much lower can be acquired. Aluminum will be slightly deformed after one shot even though a person cannot see it. Again, I like wood but carbon is everything way more capable all the way around. It does not change shape to heat and cold, aluminum and wood does. The aero space industry abandoned aluminum for good reason, it worked sometimes but sometimes ain't good enough. At 50 yards I shoot better with carbon, but I had more ways to tune the arrow than with wood. I give it to carbon because it is better in every way with the exception of noise and vibration dampening. Wood is exceptional in that regard.
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From: Babysaph
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Date: 27-Nov-22 |
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Most carbon shooters are shooting too stiff an arrow. I use to do that bi know guys shooting 340’s off of 50 lb bows
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From: Jack Whitmrie jr
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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I agree with Babysaph, see guys shooting 400's off a 40# bow.
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From: Ruttinghard
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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But aren’t a lot of guys drawing a lot longer than back in the day, with a lot more point weight, and longer arrows? So what used to be a crazy spine for a 40# bow isn’t so crazy now because it’s such a different comparison? (Not trying to be smart or argue, genuinely trying to learn)
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From: danny
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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I have never considered shooting cedar arrows a disadvantage.
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From: fdp
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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"But aren’t a lot of guys drawing a lot longer than back in the day,".....No
"with a lot more point weight, and longer arrows?"...some do/some don't.
"So what used to be a crazy spine for a 40# bow isn’t so crazy now because it’s such a different comparison? "...depends on the set up. It takes a LOT of weight, a LOT of length, a LOT of centershot, and a LOT of performance to get .400 spine arrows to shoot well for most folks out of a 40lb. bow.
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From: Bigdog 21
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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Silent stick. most Olympic shooters shoot X10s and it is the arrow that is always on the podium. Yes it is carbon but with a aluminum core of precision aluminum for straightness the reason for carbon is to make it small enough for wind not to bother it as much and keep amount of spine needed. Only way any arrow would be forgiving of short draw is if it on the weak side to begin with.
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From: Babysaph
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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What Jack said. The carbons are cheaper in the long run for me. A dozen will last me 10 years
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From: Babysaph
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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The carbons are an investment. They will be there when your woods are broken and tour pop cans are bent hehe
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From: Babysaph
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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My arrows don’t forgive me. When I do something wrong I miss.
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From: felipe
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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I agree carbon makes the best shooting, most durable arrow, but that doesn't take away from what wood arrows have to offer, which is why a lot of archers even practice the sport. Carbons are budget arrows, not just in $ but in time spent.
As far as forgiveness, your gear is not where you should look.
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From: Babysaph
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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No most guys are not drawing long they ate short drawing most shots. Watch em shoot
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From: Bassmaster
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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You can only generalize to a certain extent. Lots of variables involved which we all know I hope. A 400 spine carbon arrow 27 inches long with a 125 head spines differently than a full length 32.5 inch carbon 400 with a 170 gr head which I shot out of my 45lb. recurve bows for years. You can't do that. You need at least 500 or 600 spine arrows for a 45lb. bow many would say. My bare shaft tells me I can, and I have ,and I do, and that was the perfect weight for a hunting arrow for me. So their is that.
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From: Jed Gitchel
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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I'm hard on arrows, carbons last longer for me. A wood arrow is incredibly quiet though.
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From: Buglmin
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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Arrow forgiveness isn't about wood-carbon-aluminum. It's about arrow weight. A heavier arrow, regardless of what it's made of, will be more forgiving then a lighter, faster arrow. I've always said that a faster arrow shows issues with tuning and form more then a heavier, slower arrow. That's why some guys say aluminum is more forgiving, and it's not about how it's made, it's because it's heavier.
The cross weave construction of carbon shafts have changed everything in carbon arrow technology. They can maintain the wall thickness that rivals aluminum arrows. Today's carbon arrows aren't the carbon arrows of the 80's. I'm shooting indoor leagues with wood arrows this year, and loving the accuracy I'm getting from them, even when I make a bad release. Because the heavy arrow is slower and doesn't show thing compared to a light arrow going 204 fps. Look at today's top 3D shooters. They're not shooting light, fast 360 grain arrows. They're shooting heavy, slower arrows for accuracy and forgiveness.
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From: Bassmaster
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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Wood for self bows,and carbon for glass recurves. they both have their place for me.
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From: Ruttinghard
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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That’s interesting about the heavier arrow being more forgiving. You always hear of lighter arrows being praised for their flatter trajectory to make subconsciously estimating yardage easier. But that’s good to know there’s a trade off in a more squirrelly arrow vs the heavy one.
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From: Silentstik
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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One thing that I have been testing is light gpi arrows versus the old school heavy gpi carbons. I now firmly believe that the newest carbon technology is making arrows come out of paradox much quicker. I have arrows that have 50 more grains up front but weigh the same as old school carbons with 50 grain lighter tips. I used to like heavier shafts, but with the newer carbons I am able to put more weight up front and video shows that my shafts recover quicker than the older carbons. Look visibly more stable in flight. Really like the new carbons. Like wood too, just way more expensive to get a set matched to meet what I can do with these carbons.
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From: Boker
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Date: 28-Nov-22 |
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Personally never understood the concept of arrow forgiveness. When I pluck the string, short or over draw etc etc it’s not going to be a great shot regardless of the arrow material.
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From: shade mt
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Date: 29-Nov-22 |
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i think it is human nature (for some anyway) to want the best.
best equipment, best bow, best arrow.
So often our mentality is we need the "best".....even when realistically...we don't.....its like shooting premium VLD bullets instead of core loks...to shoot 50 yds at a deer.
I'm not sure we could really determine if one arrow is more forgiving than another, if we truly compare apples to apples.
spine, straightness, weight, center shot or not, glove, tab, brace height...etc, all have effects.
when comparing carbon to wood what are we comparing?..mismatched cheap woodies, to top of the line carbon?...or matched, weighed straight wood to cheap carbons?
overall....wood will never match, good top of the line carbons.No matter how much i prefer wood, i'm dreaming if i think they do.
But wood absolutely has some advantages, and appeal "for me"....
For the target archer, or compound shooters, obviously carbon is king.
For us one stringer hunters?....truthfully both work equally well.
there is a lot of talk, varied opinions,and statements, that are good valid points.
carbons...straighter? yep...more consistent?...yep, but the real world advantages for most of us hunters diminishes the minute we hit the woods, and wrap our fingers around the string.
because neither wood or carbon will totally cover human error.
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