As I'm getting older and more experienced in general in my trad journey I find myself gravitating to less and less draw weight. I can shoot longer sessions, hold at full draw longer and shoot more frequently in general. That said, I don't ever want to give up lethality at the expense of my progressing down the energy scale. As a result I'm constantly appraising my set-ups and "making up" for my low poundage with other things. I fancy myself a red-neck Ashby of sorts.

I wish I had more time to test all the penetration factors but I can't figure out how to do that AND pay rent. That said, arrow tune/flight has to be the preeminent factor in the penetration game. Dr. Ashby has it as #2 behind arrow integrity on his famed 12 factors list. But a quote of his summarizes arrow flight tune "Even with every other factor in place, without good arrow flight you will have poor arrow performance."

Arrow Tune is a three-for as well. Yes... of course there's the penetration benefits but also a tuned set up is more accurate. Shooting well tuned arrows provides a better feedback loop to the shooter. It's impossible to improve your shooting IF your arrow flight is inconsistent. If your shooter/bow/arrow combo is perfect then practice is useful. The third aspect of pursuing perfect flight is the shooter. IF you want perfect arrow flight - it's not ALL bow/arrow commination. You gotta have a consistent grip... anchor the same,... good release... follow-through... etc. The same factors that produce a consistent arrow flight are lined up nicely with the attributes that also produce a consistent and accurate hunting shot.

It's anecdotal but I'm typing beneath my wife's 341" Montana public land bull. It was a compound but she pulls 26" and was shooting light arrow at about 47 pounds. That arrow blew through that bull and buried itself in the ground off side. I shot a doe the other day - 42# of Bigfoot Hybrid... same thing... VPA was buried in the ground. Perfect arrow flight out of both bows really maximizes the set up.

FOC... arrow diameter... beveled edges... (for me) are on the list of things to maybe consider but they are garnish to a beef and potatoes meal.

Happy Thanksgiving to all on the Wall.

Jar.

The problem is, that when stuff does not go perfect during hunting, your result may vary no matter how good your tune is. And if your shoulders are not blown, a normal man can pull 50#+ with ease. Unless you are in the 65+ old bracket, I hear the "getting older" justifucation far too often Since you have a long draw, your lower weight bows store probably enough energy, but making a generalization out of your results is wrong.

I believe Jar's generalization was, well tuned is necessary. Good things happen when you are well tuned. He described 2 perfect pass through kills. Not a hit a little high or hit a little far back & couldn't find it shots. Draw weight & FOC are good things but will not overcome a poor flying arrow that misses the spot. A well flying, sharp broadhead, with enough momentum for a pass through of the vitals of whatever animal hunted, is all that is required. Whatever it takes to do that.>>>---> Ken

I agree with Jar….nothing is better for penetration than a perfectly tuned setup.

tecum-tha,

His generalizations are not wrong. A light weight hunting bow with perfect arrow tune, will out penetrate a heavy weight hunting bow with poor arrow tune. An arrow with poor tune to draw weight and draw length having fishtailing and/or porpoising will cause it to lose energy. Since it will not be flying on its axis it will not hit the animal squarely on the very point of the broadhead and it will lose more penetration energy. A properly tuned arrow will have ALL its energy and weight directly behind that small broadhead tip allowing maximum penetration, even if things "go wrong". He also describes those arrows from those light weight bows going completely through the animals he talks about. Many have described on this Forum the exact same results for animals they have shot. If you have an arrow go completely through an animal from a light weight bow, how is that any different with an arrow being shot from a heavy weight hunting bow going completely through? We as Bow Hunters should not be aiming for shoulder bone, especially with quartering away shot which is a worst cause scenario. With a broadhead coming in at angle on that shoulder blade it will not be hitting on the point, but on one of the blade's edges or on the flat side of a two blade head going forward into the shoulder blade's spine. I don't care how much weight you shoot that is not/will not be a killing shot. Shooting animals larger than deer, heavier draw weights will give you an advantage in putting a broadhead completely through the animal. There are those though who have used bows in the low to mid 40's to kill Moose and Elk and they have shown them here. They are disciplined enough to wait on the right shot (not take marginal shots), are shooting a draw weight they are comfortable shooting, are accurate with, shooting a well tuned arrow. I have asked this question on here before and have never gotten a real answer to it. Maybe you can? How much arrow energy does it ACTUALLY take to put a broadhead in one side of a deer and have it come out the other side? You see once the broadhead has exited it has done all the damage it can. Where heavier draw weight does help, depending on arrow weight shot, is shooting 3D you can get a flatter trajectory. Now I use to be in the "Heavier is better/needed crowd" (Howard Hill Syndrome) for a Number of years, and argued for it. Then there was a thread on here some years ago that made me rethink (say: Whoa, wait a minute here?) everything I thought, was taught to be true, and believed with the need of heavy equipment. It was also where I came up with the question I just asked you, that no one has yet given a hard answer to and not just speculation on their part. DANNY

Amen---nail down and great tune and do the right things at your end on each shot and good things will happen. I'm telling on myself, but recently after taking a doe with a 40# set up (Toelke 10X Whip 42@28 with 700 Axis 27.5" and 175 up front--411 grs) that was very effective I started playing with arrows and ended up shooting one that was 2 spine groups stiffer (because I'm always messing with stuff--my biggest weakness). I didn't have a bareshaft and since the broadheads and field points flew to the same place out to 30 yards (and I hunt inside 20) I figured good to go. Long story short---I took a buck with that 500 spine 534 grain arrow. Penetration was no issue. I figured all was well until I cut off the feathers on the arrow I shot the buck with and sent it down range at 20 yards. It was waaaaay too stiff and I should have known that. The 4" feathers apparently were enough to steer the relatively small stinger broadhead and mask tuning issues. I spent much more time with that bow and ended up liking the tune I got with 800s even better. I will not skip the bareshaft in this process again. OP is correct---it just doesn't take a lot of poundage to get good penetration from our equipment today and as he notes, tuning the archer is as important as tuning the arrow.

Arrow weight is important but the whole discussion was draw weight. The rifleman also used a light draw weight. I know he uses sharp broadheads & his arrows were right at 10 grains per pound. He can shoot too. >>>----> Ken

I guess the arrow tune is important although I have never done more than watch how my arrow flies. I would be surprised if most bowhunters have the same draw length shooting from a tree stand on a cold November day as they do when tuning and if that wouldn't throw the whole tune off.

JMO….

Makes no damn difference at all whether your arrow is “light”, “heavy” or in between; the better it is tuned, the better it’ll penetrate.

That may mean that Tune is more critical at lower draw weight than at higher, where you are more likely to have ft-lbs of energy to burn; but relying on brute force is never the Thinking Man’s solution.

And a poor tune (masked by big fletchings) can scrub off a LOT of speed quickly and reduce the impact energy to that of a lighter bow… AND you’re (likely) still not flying point-on in settled flight at Impact. So the tuned, lightweight rig is likely to equal or outperform the Bigger Hammer.

FWIW, my arrows are a bit weak, bare-shaft (not noticeably inside of 30) and not so much that you can really tell between BH and FP. That’s kind of my insurance policy against cold weather, etc. and losing a few pounds as a result. And biggish fletchings are my insurance against an adrenaline-fueled dynamic release a few lbs heavier.

And incidentally…. The harder the stuff you hit, the bigger the penalty for suboptimal tuning, so if dropping #5 is good for your accuracy (so you avoid the hard bits) AND your tune is good, the accuracy is probably worth at least the poundage difference….

So I‘d like sooner hunt #10 lighter and Tuned; it may not save the day when it all hits the fan, but neither will #10 more of poorly-tuned, wasted effort…

OTOH…. If you can have the trifecta (accuracy, tune and Umph)… why wouldn’t you??

So is an arrow that flies and tunes perfectly with fletching (based on whatever parameters you use to make that judgement, paper, field point/ broadhead group etc.) actually inferior in tune to an arrow that is tuned without fletching?

And if so, would the difference ever be quantifiable/distinguishable when being shot by a human being ?

Tuesday night winter league indoor shoots. I ask recurve,and long bow shooters if their bow is tuned after they ask me why I shoot a bare shaft with every group, and I tell them It is my best teacher short of a coach. Some say by looking they can tell they are shooting a straight arrow, and others say they don't want to strip the feathers off of a good arrow, and I don't force them, but if any are interested in learning bare shaft tuning I teach them. Some are,and some never will be , and that is OK with me. Their bow, and arrow, so it's their choice, and live goes on.

To the point of perfect tune and perfect arrow flight, it's 100% true that perfect arrow flight trumps the weight of the bow anytime. Any arrow, that is flying straight, will not have any of its energy compromised when it hits the target, the onus of that power is right on the point of the arrow, whether animal or otherwise. Any arrow that wobbles even slightly, will lose some energy both in flight, and again as it tries to recover on impact with the target. That's just physics and can't be argued. Well it can be but not logically, some folks will argue anything just to argue. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Hitting your target accurately is also important, so if you can do that with heavy bows, good for you. I'll be the first to admit that at age 76, I'm not nearly as strong as I used to be, but I'm pretty damn accurate with my bows of legal hunting weight, and my arrows don't compromise their performance by being wobbling weebles. :)

“So is an arrow that flies and tunes perfectly with fletching (based on whatever parameters you use to make that judgement, paper, field point/ broadhead group etc.) actually inferior in tune to an arrow that is tuned without fletching?”

Define “Perfect”. How could you tell?? (LOL) But seriously…. Arguably, a perfect arrow would be a touch weak when bare-shafted, right? So maybe you have to dip the nock end in paint or add masking tape until you build up the same added mass as feathers to get the shaft “perfect”, and then you fletch un-dipped shafts to hit the same all-up mass??

All I can say is that Perfect is inferior to Nothing at all. Get there however works for you. ;)

Not sure why arrow tune would even be debated ?

or in this right is wrong, and wrong is right... and right only relevant to the way "I" think crazy mixed up society we are living in, now questioning the importance of arrow tuning now?

tune your arrows so they fly straight, regardless of bow weight or arrow weight. trust me folks.....it is best.

When it comes to tuning and shooting I'll keep reading, listening to and taking the advice of the fellas that have and do kill game on a regular basis.

I'll leave the internet debates to the keyboard experts.

"not sure why arrow tune would even be debated" some folks would argue over the color of sh*t.

Great thread jar. Ill admit it, im weak. Im a small person and weigh #150. Ive never been strong and i have seriously weight trained 4-6 days a week for what is now 30 years. Even at my peak, i was never what i would call strong and that peak bottomed out at age 38/40.

As a younger me i shot, 70+ compounds and a #50 longbow. In my mid 30's i had a #60 compound and i finally admitted that was too much. I have shot #50 since about 2015. I cant even draw my old #70 thats in the basement. Would i love to? Sure, i just cant!!

My trad bows are #39-43. I have to do everything i can to make them as effective as possible. Tuning is part of that and i enjoy doing it!

I was pretty big on the "perfect" tune as well for some time, but have come to realize that it is not as critical as many obsessed would want to have you believe.. and to this day have never met a perfect archer!

As someone who is tasked with helping people get to that tune, You can only hear.. but they fly like darts so many times before you realize that it's hard to change what's working. The vast majority of what I deal with are people using arrows considerably too stiff for their set up... "but they fly like darts". I have adopted a new opinion. If both your field tipped arrows and your broadhead arrows fly to the same location and where you are looking, why would you change?! It is nearly impossible for this to happen without your set up being "good enough" to do what you are asking of it.

If you have the time, desire and obsessive nature, wear yourself out! tune, re tune, change, read facebook and see how wrong you are.. nock yourself out!

For the rest, well, I don't know what makes you happy.

Their is a belief that if you don't have an arrow laying in the dirt on the other side of an animal covered in blood that your set up is inadequate. If this is true, than I would venture a guess that we are all inadequate from time to time. While pass through certainly helps blood trails, it doesn't ensure a kill, or even a quicker kill. If you want a full pass through 100% of the time, shoot them through the guts.. you may never recover your animal, but you will your arrow.

The hunter has no control of the game and no viable way of qualifying perceived facts of situations that don't turn out like they hoped. Path of penetration, disposition of animal, shot sequence, wind, unforeseen twigs, and how you hold your mouth can all have an impact on a specific scenario and there's no way of knowing which one could be the culprit. We don't even know what we think we saw.. for certain. I have had people tell me that they double lunged deer only to have them get away.. didn't happen that way, but that is what they perceived.

I would venture a guess that I have always shot a bit more energy than the vast majority in the trad world. Never hunted with a bow lighter than 55lbs and as much as 90 and have never had less than a 30.5" draw. I have killed a fair amount of animals with about 50% of those having a full pass through. Even shot a small buck with a 900 grain arrow at 12 yards out of an 85lb bow to get 7"s of penetration.

You want better penetration, don't crowd the shoulder.. I have yet to learn this. BigJim

BigJim and Supernaut X2.

I would like to think all bow and arrow setups would be tuned well light or heavy? Yes, a light well-tuned combo would be better than a untuned heavy bow. But they should both be tuned so which would be the better choice. What you can handle is the determining factor and being on the heavy side of that to me is the best.

Regarding tuning, I've made many hundreds of hickory, doug fir and cedar arrows from boards since 2004. I'm currently making five dozen douglas fir arrows. The ones that shoot good for me I'll keep in the tuned bucket. Others not so great regular use buckets. Others just sit in dogs bucket, lots of those. Others will go to family for Christmas gifts this year. Based on my past experience I'll get a great dozen in five. Oh, and I also find for first shot of the day, my best can easily not be so best. I gotta be warmed up.

Yep BigJim and Supernaut. Some guys obsess over this stuff. Just get your shooting where you look and go hunt. The only pass through that concerns me is when the deer passes through my truck bed for the ride home

Tuning is important but practicing your shooting I feel is very important also. If you have a well-tuned bow and you barely practice shooting it what's the point. I practice every day. Today is Thanksgiving and I've already practiced with my 1997 Bear Super Kodiak for an hour. My wife even made a joke and ask me if I was getting ready for next year's archery season. "lol"

A bow and arrow is an incredibly efficient killer when in the right hands.

I would rate the factors in order of importance;

1) Good arrow flight

2) an efficient BH

3) arrow weight

4) bow weight

…

….

…

Then there is everything else way down the list.

-

We see many folks killing critters with light arrows and light bows….the one thing they have in common is a very efficient BH….so that has to be towards the top. Minimal resistance is an undeniably important factor.

Then, Its a fact in physics, a heavier arrow contributes to penetration….the heavier arrow absorbs more of a bows energy that would otherwise be lost to noise and vibration. The heavier arrow carries more energy. Is it needed?…that can be argued until the cows come home.

No one has ever scientifically proven that high FOC or single bevel BHs are an improvement.

There are many guys vying for our attention; Look at me….I did this…so it must be true. Nevermind that they are crummy shots and there is a huge margin of error in their anecdotal evidence- the claims we see on high foc and SB’s is observational without a direct double blind comparison- definitely NOT scientific.

Be careful who your gurus are….

…

.

I agree with Nemo on this also. Nothing is better than being prepared, I shoot everyday also even if it just for a short session.

Are there actually people who advocate not tuning arrows ?

I certainly hate to disagree with the big guy that perfect tuning is not critical. If I hit a small deer with a 900 grain arrow launched from an 85 pound bow at 12 yards & only got 7" of penetration I believe I would revisit perfect tuning or highly suspect the broadhead. I doubt that arrow had straightened out yet.(Maybe too weak ?) I would think that should shoot through both shoulders or skull. It should penetrate a Buffalo more than 7". Now the ball socket of the hip would be another matter. Like Bassmaster said if you don't want to tune that is your choice. Tuning is important & even more critical to those of us that can't shoot 85 pounds & hit a barn. Happy Thanksgiving,>>>---> Ken

2 bears, that arrow was tuned.. bare shafted, cut, weight added.. the entire gambit! I intentionally shot for the shoulder with the opinion that I could shoot through anything.. not so! I have also shot moose, buffalo, elk, and a 400 plus lb pig. Never got a pass through on those either.

The point is that there is an opinion out there that if an arrow doesn't pass through, that there is something wrong with it. Not necessarily true.

I also maintain that achieving "perfect" tune is not only impossible, but a rabbit hole that will send people off with a lack of confidence that hurts there effectiveness.

If someone is good enough to achieve "perfect" tune, then they should be able to achieve near perfect scores.. ah..hmmm..

I'm not advocating that archers shouldn't tune, just how far they should take the insanity. BigJim

BigJim X2 again.

O.K. Jim I will go along with that. It just sounded like you were saying tuning wasn't that important. While there is no such thing as perfect it is important to keep striving in that direction. No such thing as tuned too good or being too accurate.

Several respected archers here try to teach tuning & convince folks it is important. Someone always comes along & says otherwise. It has been said here many times: "I am not going to hunt with a bare shaft why tune with one." Some seem to still be convinced screw a broadhead on the same weight as your field point & you are good to go. Most know it just isn't so. It is worth repeating.

I apologize if your intent wasn't to lower the importance of tuning. I still have a hard time understanding only 7" of penetration with that rig. I have made 2 holes in a lot of deer,hogs, & wait for it 2 bears with about 1/2 your horsepower. Every circumstance is different though. Happy Thanksgiving >>>---> Ken

Maybe its just a matter of improving my form during the tuning process (which I suppose might even count as “practice” ;) ), but I will simply say that my shooting improved as my tuning improved. Even with field points and big fletchings. So at least now when I see crappy flight, I know it’s All Me.

As I said in my earlier post "...we as Bow Hunters should not be shooting for shoulder bone...". Big Jim you just proved my point with your example. Honestly, Thank You for that. Heavy weight bow, heavy arrow even tuned properly, will not make up for poor shot placement (as some would want us to believe), even though your shot was intentional. I do not dwell on arrow tuning, I don't bare shaft tune, but do paper tune. As Corax_latrans mentioned, I paper tune for a slightly weak point and shaft combo, about 1/4 to 3/8's tear to the left (Right hand shooter), for the exact same reasons he mentioned. I have also found over the years a slightly weak point and arrow combo, is more forgiving on a bad release, or the short draw due to position or stiff from being cold, with arrow flight. Big Jim you are also right in one sense. "Perfect Tune" is hard to achieve, because I know of no one who 100% of the time has a Perfect finger release, because of which will affect arrow flight to some extent on each shot. Near perfect scores that I wouldn't know about, my yardage estimation shooting instinctively isn't always the best :'(, and the occasional bad release. But I do okay. Kinda like a Baseball Batter's Average, it can change year to year or day to day. Once I find a point and arrow combination that gives me what I am looking for, out of the bow I am shooting, I don't go looking for something else, I don't need to. I've known people who constantly keep wanting to change arrows for something that is BETTER (even though they have perfect arrow flight), no matter what bow set up they are shooting. Unless you are changing shaft materials (carbon, wood, aluminum) or you want heavier or lighter arrow weights. If you have perfect arrow flight you don't need to change. They didn't know what they were looking for, they just were looking for something BETTER. Some are still looking. DANNY

Corax, as your form improves you can tune better and both let you shoot more consistently.

No question! I was simply making the point that all of the shooting that goes into bare shafting is ALSO practice time. And perhaps better yet, it allows/forces you to practice, shooting at a vertical line (which I have done for many years, just not 100% of the time) and for my purposes, that is one of the best forms of target shooting for anyone who is not using sights.

And ironically… The more consistent I get with my form, the less difference I can see a between a 500 shaft with 200 grains up front versus a 600 with 175.

I have to agree with Big Jim.

Is a good tune absolutely necessary? Well - No.

But, is a good tune beneficial? Absolutely/Extremely !

The better the flight of the arrow, the better the accuracy, and the better the delivered energy. Win/Win in the benefit department.

That said - I tune as far as my eyes, and common sense show me to tune, because I know there's no such thing as perfect ability, but I do get it as close as "my" ability allows me to.

As far as arrow weight in GPP is concerned - I'm a middle of the road type guy. Somewhere between 9 & 10 GPP has always worked best for me. I don't have penetration issues (ever).

Rick

I agree with a lot that Big Jim said. But I also believe that a properly tuned arrow will eliminate a lot of what if questions. A arrow that is around 10 grains per pound of draw weight or heavier and bareshaft tuned to the setup will be more efficient at penetaration than a untuned setup. For years I shot 500 spine arrows because I had them onhand. I now realize that I can't shoot 500's for any of my setups. I took several animals with them but arrow flight was not very good. Bareshaft tuning uncovered the source of the problem. I now shoot 400's and 340's in all my setups. It took years for me to realize that proper spine is critical and the only way to know for sure for me was bareshaft tune. My arrows now fly better and I am confident that I have the best reasonable setup. If my arrow somehow does not penetrate properly, it is becsuse of some other factor like short drawing bad release, hitting a twig, and a myriad of other possibilities. I strongly believe that proper spine is the very first requirement before any other factor. A person that can shoot with a pretty decent release cosistently should definitely bareshaft tune. What the arrow tells you may not be what you thought.

IME the perfect tune arrow has a whole lot more to do with shot chops then it does perfect arrow. I've grabbed an arrow out of my good arrow bucket on said "why is this in here?" more than once. Then next shot OK its good. The arrow hasn't changed, the archer form has.

It looks like more & more are seeing the light or at least speaking up. Guys tuning is important. >>>----> Ken

Best not to lump too many people in one pile based on their belief of the need for good tuning. That's like defining tuning, or perfect tuning. Many times we use the term perfect for adequate but anyone in the sport for more than just a few years should get the point. Most of us know what works for deer or whatever and base our opinions on that.

Frankly, you can be as anal as you want and it don't bother the next guy, so no need in looking down on other folks who do it their own way and not your way. People who are quick to condemn someone else are generally covering up their own tracks anyway.

If your form is good you can bare shaft. Shoot a bare shaft with every feathered group. If your bare shaft starts acting up your form is breaking down, and it may be for just for that shot , but it will show. For me it has been my best teacher short of a teacher. Nothing to obsess over unless your form is bad, and then it can drive you crazy.

What?

"If you can get a perfect tune you should be able to shoot a perfect score"- Thats a silly comment.

Thats like saying because I can change my spark plugs I should be able to win the Grand Prix....apples and oranges.

Tune is dependent on not only the perfect arrow spine but also repeatable form. One can have one without the other. Its ture that very few of us have that kind of form-especially in hunting situations- Myself included.

There is no such thing as a perfect tune. If you think you can achieve that, you’re fooling yourself.

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