I have always had trouble coupling a consistent/aligned anchor point with a tight gap at realistic deer hunting distances. After a couple bad shots this October while deer hunting, I decided to try a fixed crawl my ILF recurve to give me a 20 yard point on; it took me three sessions before I had virtually perfect arrow flight with bare shafts...my crawl is about 1 1/2 inches. After a few weeks I'd say my overall accuracy is improved at close distances, but first shot confidence and results are significantly improved. Candidly, the only real reason I have not done this before is because I like to shoot 3D and most of the shoots I go to do not allow it. Personally, I suppose I was kinda putting the cart before the horse given that my primary objective with traditional archery is to be an effective hunter with a stickbow just as I imagine our ancestors have been for millenia.

Please do not take my post as whining, I do not intend it to be such. That being said, why don't more 3D shoots allow a fixed crawl? Would like to see that changed. If it's not too much to ask, would also like to see the MR class at IBO allow a fixed crawl. There seem to be a good number of guys (and gals) that now shoot hunting style bows with a fixed crawl. I'm curious what the history is behind the string walking and crawl rules that seem pervasive. What say ye?

Just a different class. Same as those who use add on sites and so on.

I don't have a problem with how anybody aims.

World Archery now allows face walking, stick-on rests and a 1/12" gap between your finger and nock in the traditional class.

ASA has already adopted the World Archery rules save that they will still be shooting 25 yards as opposed to WA's 30 yard limit.

So.... things, they be a changing.

This has been a sore spot for me for years. My opinion is that there are those that know some can shoot better scores if they are allowed to string walker or use a fixed crawl. Most 3D targets are set at rather close distances and this style of shooting helps hit the closer targets. Some know they will get beat if they allow it, so the rules are set to stop it. My point is that if it helps hit the target, 3D or live animal, then why not learn how to do it. The point is to hit the target or kill the deer. Telling someone where they have to grip the string is a bad rule in my opinion. They don't tell shooters how to grip the bow but they tell you how you must grip the string. Just my opinion!

John- agreed on the bow hand grip contrast. It seems competitive classes should be based on equipment, not your technique.

Yea let em shoot the way they want to

Reason it's not allowed at some shoots is because it is a sitting system. No difference then sites on a bow only reversed.

Most shoots have a bare bow class with less rules.

Depends on the shoot and the club putting it on. If it’s trad only you might end up with the sights people? Then agian you may end up with the string walkers. Does the club follow any archery organizations rules? There are clubs whose trad members make the rules so your at their mercy. As for myself I don’t shoot competition anymore for the above reasons. I shoot for fun.

Interesting subject….

On the one hand…. If the equipment is the same, why not let people use it however they want?

On the other…. If there are scoring rings involved, a sighting system is going to win.

Outside of competition, who gives a rip? You do what works for YOU. Especially as a hunter, right? YOU are the only who has to live with the bad hits and the aftermath, so it’s up to you to decide what is important to you and proceed accordingly.

Competition, though…. If you have a system which you have proven is more accurate than split or 3-under and you want to compete with people who are using what you recognize as an “inferior” technique, isn’t that like showing up at a horse race on a motorcycle?

Seems like if the folks running a shoot had to accommodate every last sliver of the population when it comes to exactly how much of a “system” is permitted, they’d basically be handing out Participation Trophies to 47 guys who each came in first in a class of One. I mean, don’t we need separate classes for split vs 3-under??

If you want to Compete, you’ve gotta play by The Rules. If you wanna Win, most likely you will have to learn how to extract every last advantage that The Rules will allow. That’s just how Competition works.

I figure most techniques come with some advantages and some disadvantages, and the best class rules figure out how to ensure that courses will call for about equal numbers of shots which play to the strengths and punish the weaknesses of the different approaches. For example, if a typical bow has a 3-under point-on distance of 25 yards and a split-finger POD of say 50, then shouldn’t there be half of the targets at 20 and half at about 40? (Not literally, but you get my point; 3U is probably an “unfair” advantage over split if the shots rarely exceed a 3U POD, so limiting shots to only 25 yards is OBVIOUSLY a Communist Plot perpetrated by the 3U Infidels).

I should be so lucky as to have my scores held back primarily by the way I hook the string.

2x M60gunner

Alot of shoots is what the majority wants, do you have 5 shooter are 50 quite coming. Been to shoot longbow class bow riser must be cut before center and wood arrows. Trad shoots with no mechanical rest like flipper . Bow Hunter must have 125 gr tip are more ,quiver on bow and one arrow in quiver. when shooting. Was a finger class but don't see it much anymore.. practice what you like to shoot just don't turn in a score.

Outside of competition it matters nothing at all how you shoot your bow, nobody will tell you cant do whatever you want. Competition has rules. Divisions are made to try and level the playing field and different things are allowed in different divisions. To say that someone will not allow a fixed crawl, or string walking, or a sight, or a release or a compound because they fear to be beaten is a falsehood brought about by people trying to game the system for the way they shoot best just as much as not allowing it.There are already enough divisions that are pretty fair for each one of them. If as stated 3D is a short range game then a fixed crawl should work just fine in a string walking division. People are always wanting to add something new, something that works better for them, we seem unable to live with the rules we have so seek to change them to our personal benefit. The very reason we have so many divisions and so much division in competitive archery today.

Class were adopted for a reason; to make archery fair across the board so folks would compete against like styles, with like equipment. Guys who have a sophisticated aiming system, like string walking, shouldn't be shooting against guys who shoot a more instinctive style, just like rifles with scopes shouldn't shoot against blackpowder guns with iron sights.

Archery organizations figured it out over fifty years ago. The only ones who think differently are guys who never compete, or ones who use a sophisticated aiming system such as string walking. To say it doesn't matter is ridiculous. If it didn't matter really, why would you need a regimented aiming system? If you say no, then let's include real sights in the fray as well. After all, it's all the same "trad" bow right and the goal is to hit the target eh?

George, we don't disagree often (hardly ever), but I've got to poo poo your iron sights to scopes comparison. In a case such as that, the equipment is different (very different), so of course they should not be in competition against one another.

In the case of string walking (if the equipment is the same), It's only how the shooters are approaching, and using that equipment that is different.

It's kind of like using a pencil for drawing fine lines. Do you want that pencil dull, or would you rather have it sharpened first? Or, should we have two classes for the pencils - one for dull, and one for sharp? Maybe a class for each different size of pencil in dull, or sharp?

Right now, and from what I've seen for a long time - the archery classes are being determined by trying to define that pencil.

Put me in the camp of: As long as the equipment is the same, it's all the same class of competition, and the shooters can use whatever "style" of shooting they desire.

Rick

I agree with Bigdog and George on this. Plus the entire “traditional “ wording and mindset is divisive at Times because individuals have THEIR OWN definition of it.

Heck a flipper rest is about as “traditional “ as it gets, so is a match stick sight but people don’t want any part of that.

Folks, no need to turn this into a rules vs no rules discussion. If those of us that wished a fixed crawl was not forbidden did not care about following rules, we would not propose that the rule be changed.

Many of the best performers in the non- stringwalking classes have an extremely high anchor which gives them tight gaps at typical 3d distances. Some people's biomechamics are not conducive to this, and a crawl fixes this issue.

Not intended to be a referendum on all rules, just a suggestion that more clubs rethink this particular rule.

seems like it should be ok, but I dont compete,,so dont know about that stuff

CMF “Many of the best performers in the non- stringwalking classes have an extremely high anchor which gives them tight gaps at typical 3d distances. Some people's biomechamics are not conducive to this, and a crawl fixes this issue.“

I am one of those people, I tried and tried to get a 20 yd point on and I have to shoot with index finger basically in pocket on my lower jaw under K9 for alaignment or else I’m all messed up

That’s 39 yds point on shooting 3under lol

The struggle is real

Some shoots, especially those held by large organizations, have such rules. At 'local' shoots with no prize money on the line, do as you please. Our club mostly runs the latter type, and I tell shooters to get closer or further if they don't like the stake placement. Can't do that at an IBO or ASA shoot!

I do not (personally) like the idea that shooting techniques should be regulated like equipment choices. But I ain't in charge ;-)

Oh boy this brings back some old memories I just as soon forget. I was president of the local bowhunting/archery club and this very issue came up in the barebow compound class. Very controversial and not settled to 100% of everyones satisfaction. Ended up no string walking was allowed in the barebow class.

I agree on the equipment being the same. Not how it’s held.

I thought we all agreed it’s the Indian not the bow.

To me a better analogy is motorcycle and car racing. The equipment has to be nearly identical in a class. How it’s ridden or driven is all up to the rider, driver. You can sit on the handle bars if you like. Until you win too often. Then others will make rules to contain your wins

It’s been my experience that the guy that wins consistently will win no matter what. Make him change to your style of shooting and in a short period of time he will beat you with your own bow.

It’s the Indian.

Altitude is 100% on this

Altitude is 100% on this

On unmarked 3D course and with up and down lanes, the stringwalker has very little advantage compared with the rest of aimers. His chances to win are increasing just if he is training on that course.

Maybe everyone should have to bend at the waist and lean forward to shoot if we are going to base the competition on shooting styles. Plus you can't wear only a short billed cap, and it can only be a camo hat since it is a hunting club running the event. Maybe have a class for left hand shooters too since they shoot differently than us righty guys and gals. Just being funny!

"the stringwalker has very little advantage compared with the rest of aimers."

Maybe not over 'gap' shooters, but it's the advantage over the 'instinctive' purists - those who do not reference the arrow at all - that is at issue. And that, in my experience, is very real. And the real bone of contention.

Dana, yes, over gap shooters. The winners are always aimers.

PS Just anecdotal I was told years ago by a "instinctive" shooter: you have to look at the "right spot". Later on he told me he was using pick-a-spot aiming method. The "right spot" was not the place on the target but the reference used that will put the arrow in the target.

pick-a-point *

I agree with Corax. Shoo the way you want to and shoot in the shoots that allow that. I only hunt so my way of shooting works better than all that string crawling 3 under stuff. If I shot for score I d be doing that. I’d try to get that motorcycle in the horse race lol

Draven, I shoot 'instinctive' but at longer distance I pick and focus on a point higher up on the target, and figure the arrow will drop in. So I think he's describing the same 'technique'.

And BYW Is be called a troll for this thread??

The issue with string walking and fixed crawl is that you must be very good at judging distances. Thats why many guys shooting fixed crawl use a range finder.

ASA calls fixed crawl and string walking as barebow, and you can't have no markings on your string. In traditional class, your finger must be touching the nock.

Makes no difference to me, all these rules and they still call a Hybrid a Longbow, why not have a different class for them?

And I agree with Dana C on this. I shoot instinctive but. I way can a beat a string walking gap shooting 3 under crawling guy. It’s not the same. And that’s Ok. But I am good on deer at 10 yards. Another think is that I see guys that have never won anything in their life. They need to win some of these shoots

Around here all the shoots are fun shoots. You'd be hard pressed to find a competitive shoot anywhere, including the big Baltimore Bowmen Traditional Classic. We shoot how we want with what we want with no whining. Anything goes except crossbows.

I hear ya Reddog

We have evolved into a "no one left behind" society, so we create more classes to better the chances of more people winning. I'm in the camp with Rick Barbee. As long as the equipment is the same, the manner in which it is shot is up to the individual. I shoot instinctive and if I get beat by a crawler, gapper, walker what have you, I figure I just need to up my game. In the end, a good shooter is a good shooter and they will always be tough to beat no matter their style of shooting.

Reddogge there the most fun.

Around my neck of the woods we shoot mainly fun shoots. I usually shoot with the same group of guys. One guy shoots an ILF olympic style, some shoot gap, some shoot instinctive. Last year I was string walking. Some times I won, sometimes the gappers won, and sometimes the instinctive guys would win. In our group, no one cared, and we were out for a good time. Now competition is different.

3D is always fun when you hit the target. How you manage to hit it, it is not important.

Back when I competed in offhand muzzleloading rifle the shoots only allowed open iron sights. When I took over the club shoots I told folks they could use whatever they wanted--including inlines with scopes. At the time our numbers were down and we needed to work on including folks and generating interest. Besides---I never felt threatened ( and never got beat) from a guy shooting offhand with a scope and me using iron sights.

For awhile I used a fixed crawl in competition and at some shoots got bumped into the barebow class where I was competing against at least one olympic shooter---very humbling for me. So for the next year I worked out a system that allowed me to be as precise as crawling, but meet the rule requirements. This put me back in traditional class and all was good---until I started getting target panic last year. Now I have a clicker on my bow, which is not allowed at some of the 3d shoots I attend---at those shoots I explain up front what's on my bow and ask for a "practice" card. I found that I would rather shoot well out of competition than try to deal with tp during competition. I couldn't tell you where the little pins I've won at past shoots are anyhow so I guess they're not that meaningful for me. The end result has been that I am shooting better than ever---which to me is what it is all about. I find that I enjoy the day much more when I'm shooting well than when I'm struggling and right now (and maybe forever) that clicker keeps me shooting well. I've seen guys harassed at shoots for doing things that didn't meet the club's definition of "traditional" and those guys aren't coming back. I agree with what has been said already that if the equipment is the same, it shouldn't matter how the guy puts that equipment to use. No one ever cares about what someone does on the line, until that guy starts winning and then they're all over it. When I see a guy really shooting well I want to know what they're doing----for one reason---it just might help me learn to do something different that'll up my game. We all have different standards and goals---I always end up wanting to get as much precision out of my equipment and myself as possible--if someone else has a different goal for himself that's ok with me.

I have no problem with a class for string walking, the major organizations all have them. Why ? because it is a definite advantage. If it was not an advantage why shoot that way ? The set up required takes a lot more work in tuning. A sight has a pin on the front of the bow that is set to a precise distance on a sliding bar. A string walker has a marked tab that is slid up or down the string rather than adjustment on the front to achieve the same thing. A gap shooter has a purely visual reference not a mechanical one as does a string walker. String walking is sight shooting and a way to gain a advantage in competition over a purely visual reference shooter be they gap or instinctive. It is not just a matter of skill and if you believe that a sight does not offer a big advantage that will offer you a huge advantage then why not just open everything up to the use of a sight and we can just call it recurve or longbow shooting. The major organizations already have a place for string walking so why make it across the board ? The reason is there are far more people who shoot gap or instinctive than string walk so why drive away the majority for the few, they will not from economic reasons if nothing else. We have a place for string walking or fixed gap already so why change it in every division ? where would it ever stop until it is all compounds, sights, and releases.

I thought a fixed crawl was too loud to be used for hunting (?).

I suspect the vast majority of what we call traditional archers are hunters first and not competitors. Look at the difference between shoots that are for score (IBO worlds) and for fun (ETAR) as far as attendance goes. How many string walkers do you see at "fun " shoots ? not many I have seen. It is only when competition is added do you have division between any archer no matter their style or likes and dislikes. Many years ago I said that there was nothing but good derived from competition. You tested yourself against others and worked to get better. After fifty years of competition I now think I was wrong. It is now dividing more than it brings together. Personally I still work to improve just as much as I ever have but I no longer or rarely compete any longer. Archery, all archery in America is hunting driven but the greatest influence is found on the target side. Look at equipment and technique development, the history of it. The prevalent thought is what works best for target is what works best in the woods because competition scores "prove it" We went through this in the past believe me in different ways and it led to nothing but problems. We seek to reinvent what already exists by allowing more and more rule changes to satisfy a few. As a result we stay static in numbers at best and traditional archery as far as competitive traditional archery will never grow as a result.

"A gap shooter has a purely visual reference not a mechanical one as does a string walker"

A mechanical one? Care to explain? But before answering this, are you a gapper?

"I thought a fixed crawl was too loud to be used for hunting (?).".....not hardly.

Sure. First I am a instinctive shooter, I am a serious hunter and for me that is what works best. I compete now for fun and dont turn in a score card because I am allowed at most of the shoots I go to , to shoot from where I want and try to replicate hunting shots that I am most likely to see. The mechanical aspect is that as a gap shooter and I did gap with the arrow point when I was seriously competing (mostly field archery out to eighty yards) It was a visual reference of the arrow point and the target. As a string walker which I have done at a state level at least in the past, I would measure down the string for each distance. Now the tabs are marked so you through trial and error mechanically measure a pre set distance so you hold point on at every target, you are mechanically setting the sight on the string rather than the sight bar but you are setting it just as exactly. One is a visual estimation while the other is a mechanical process.

How Many string walkers here shoot field archery? I pretty sure that's where string walking got its start. It is a challenge my son did it when he was young.

You are right Bigdog 21. String walking got it's start in field archery and became popular when Frank Gandy used it to win the high score with a perfect animal round at the NFAA nationals back in the early sixties. He outscored all the sight shooters. It was very popular for a long time in the seventies and eighties there were a lot of barebow (called string walking) and was really popular with the compound archers including me. When field archery became less popular and the speed bow craze started with 3D the manufactures quit making compounds long enough to be finger shot and the amount of barebow shooters dropped a lot. The NFAA has brought in recurve barebow now and it again seems to be growing. They like all the other organizations see a difference between it and traditional and keep it as two separate divisions even though the equipment is very similar. When I shoot field now it is with instinctive aim out to forty yards and then gap with the same anchor for the longer distances.

The idea if it is the same equipment as being the only factor I also believe to be incorrect. The idea of you can tell us what to shoot but not how we shoot it. It appears every major competitive organization sees enough difference to have separate divisions, are they all wrong ? Say we allowed string walking in every division but made an equipment rule that said the arrow must be shot off the shelf, would you find enough advantage in string walking then to continue it ? Rules , especially when it comes to competitive traditional archery are a mess for sure. Personally I have no problem with any rest, nor what material the bow or arrow is made from, nor even stabilizers. I do not feel that any of it gives a competitive advantage. I feel string walking does because it is a mechanical aiming system much more a sight shooting method than anything else. If you are not allowed to use string walking or a fixed crawl then shoot for fun, no one will turn you away. Same goes for a sight. If that is what you like, what you do best then by all means use it for your own personal shooting but do not try to change everything for competition purposes just to gain an advantage. The major organizations saw it as a advantage a long time ago and so made rules not to ban it but accommodate it. This argument has been going on a long time so rather than complain about it accept it and enjoy yourself as a string walker. Lets get back to being archers first that has divisions that everyone can live with and just perhaps competitive archery can again grow or have no divisions and see how that works.

it would be a great shame IMHO, if some of the old classes were altered to include Fixed Crawl etc

And I refer mainly to IFAA Longbow , last bastion of "trad" ..... Split and D shape bows are , well, "classic" and Id hope to see them stay that way .

For Barebow - have at it I say [ yes I shoot Barebow as well ]

Im biased because its my fave game , but id hate to see it change.

That's not even remotely "mechanical" in my mind, but thank you for the answer.

"How Many string walkers here shoot field archery? I pretty sure that's where string walking got its start."

I am doing it and yes, on field shines.

On the subject of a “mechanical sighting system”…

I think the point is (no pun intended) that if you shoot split, you have One point-on distance. If you shoot three under, you still have One point on-distance. I don’t know if competition rules prohibit or permit switching back-and-forth between the two, but if you could do that effectively, then you would have Two point-on distances to work with..

If such is not permitted, then there’s a pretty good chance that having Two constitutes a considerable advantage, that this has been proven out over time, and that’s why the rule exists.

So it follows that string-walking gives the archer any number of point-on distances to work with so that every shot can be taken with the same “sight picture”. So it’s the difference between fixed sights and adjustable. Personally I see a big difference between having to hold high sometimes and low sometimes and being able to dial in and hold 6:00 every time.

And in fairness to a fixed crawl… unless I’m turned around on the concept, the shooter is still limited to a single point-on distance, no? I guess the problem with a “fixed” crawl is that everybody has to be on the honor system and make sure that they do everything exactly the same way every time and nobody trusts anybody else. At least if a guy is off of his nocking point or switches from 3U to split, it’s easily called out from six feet away… And I think sometimes The Rules are written the way that they are not because there is a meaningful distinction but simply because they’re enforceable that way.

I guess I’ll double down on what I said earlier:

“If you want to Compete, you’ve gotta play by The Rules. If you wanna Win, most likely you will have to learn how to extract every last advantage that The Rules will allow. That’s just how Competition works.”

And Moleman is right

And Moleman is right

All this boggles my mind.

Corax, you are not allowed to switch from split to three under in any current organizations rules I am aware of except when shooting barebow (string walking). You can shoot split or three under either one but are not allowed to switch during the competition. And I could not agree more about that is how competition works, you play by the rules in place. If you do not like the rules then join the various organizations and work from the inside to change them.Draven I would like to thank you for being a gentleman and responding in such a positive manner. We agree to disagree without it being a personal thing. I have delt with this issue on other more target oriented forums in the past and that was defiantly not the case. This has always been a divisive issue since the sixties and one I do not see ever changing. It has improved over the years with the addition of string walking divisions but that I fear will never satisfy some people who want it their way only.

I have seen guys shooting with different length arrows and tip wt. To get different point on at different distance.

Bigdog 21, that is a old idea that has been around for years and why most rules state arrows must be the same except for wear and tear. Rules are to try to level a playing field but you always have some people who are gamers who want to "win" no matter how they have to go about it but feel it is not cheating if it is not done directly on a score card. It is why we have so many rules that take out a lot of the enjoyment in the game. I wish the major organizations involved in traditional could come together on rules and divisions and then stick to them. Believe me they get changed on such a regular basis it hurts the participation big time. Why do they get changed so often ? someone comes along with a new method or product and spend money to get it changed. The NFAA and field archery some years ago could not say no to anyone who advertised with them and started this trend. It was to be more "inclusive " it proved to be inclusive to certain pocket books and changed that game forever. Look at how few shoot field archery today and see how that worked.

It is sad that field archery is not what it once was. I’m not a golfer, have no desire to. And don’t care for it, but field was like the archery version of gold for me.

We had one club back when I was a kid thst had old school open field shoots and I remember just loving it.

I tired about 10 years ago to get the ol bug giant faced targets set up for a Sunday league and no one would come out.

It should simply be equipment based. The equipment is what equalizes the playing field.

I could argue that as long as an individual is drawing the bow back with their fingers, using no mechanical release, no letoff, no front and rear sighting apertures, that beyond that, all methods of getting that arrow down range on target is instinctive. Face/string walking, fixed crawl, gap, etc.

I swear, some of these classes are less about seeing who's the best shooter, and more about seeing who simply sucks less.

I really like world archery’s classes for 3d.

They are simple, and narrowed down.

Book 4: field and 3d archery. If you google it and look through the classes I feel is a o it perfect.

Recurve: barebow: longbow: instinctive .

Worth looking

Having a class deemed "instinctive" is at the very least "silly".

There is no possible way to prove (or disprove) a person is shooting instinctively.

Rick

And what Darryl/Demi said. Everyone needs to win

And what Darryl/Demi said. Everyone needs to win

A couple of things I've noticed about competition is: it doesn't build character it exposes it and the other is no matter what it is it will suck the fun right out of it. I've only been to a couple of scored events and I gota tell ya it wasn't that fun at all. Some of the behavior was asinine and juvenile at best. I would like to attend Lancaster event at least once though.

In field archery, the distances were marked so that's why string walking was so effective. The problem of yardage guessing was removed. The rest was form and function.

In 3-D you have to guess the yardage in order to set your crawl. However, the distances are relatively short compared to field archery so it still is an effective method of scoring.

Gapping is very effective also but unless you tell people you are gapping they wouldn't have a clue. Perhaps gapping is just as effective as string walking at short distances of 3-D.

World Archery no longer has an "instinctive" class; it's now called Traditional.

[[[ "World Archery no longer has an "instinctive" class; it's now called Traditional." ]]]

In my "opinion", that's a step in the right direction.

String walking - meh - it's not an advantage when shooting unknown distances out to only about 30 yards.

A gap shooter who knows how to tune, knows how to get a good mid range point on, and has a fairly quick arrow isn't going to be handicapped against the string walkers at all. The gap shooters might just have "some" advantage, because they aren't having to be quite as precise with their distance judging.

I'm still in the camp of: "Base classes on types of equipment (materials used in that equipment excluded from consideration), and not on styles of shooting."

If a string walker beats me, then he was the better shooter on that day, and if I'm taking it all that serious, I'll practice more, and/or make adjustment to myself, and/or my equipment (within the rules) to compensate.

Competition is about being the best you can be with "what's in your hands", and "between your ears".

Style of shooting, means you are "using your intellect" to find the best way for you to shoot using only "what's in your hands" (without alteration), and "between your ears".

Many of these rules are removing those aspects from the sport.

Rick

I’m with you Rick on the name instinctive is kinda silly. The idea behind it is not to say people are shooting instinctive thought. I also find the term traditional a little silly, and ONLY because people gets so nuts and cult like in claiming to be traditional. So many out there wouldn’t dare call your titan set up traditional, and they will Yap untill blue in the face. And like we saw above, don’t get longbow shooters on the topic of what’s a longbow and if a hybrid should be called a longbow etc….

I love to shoot, fun, comp, any and all the above.

When I go to a shoot I make sure I fall into the rules of what I want to shoot, which is typically modern longbow or Lb, depending on if I have a good set of woods or not

[[[ "When I go to a shoot I make sure I fall into the rules of what I want to shoot." ]]]

Same here. Even if I don't agree.

I just love to shoot. :-)

I will never hide my opinions, or disagreement from anyone, but I will always present them in a congenial manner, and with as well thought reasoning as I can muster.

Rick

Rick that is where you differ from so many others I have encountered on other forums. Somewhat humorous that many of the other forums say that the Leatherwall is where you can have a argument and not a discussion. Seems just the opposite to me and I think this discussion is a perfect example. I think your idea of World archery rules may indeed be a step in the right direction and like you I just love to shoot whatever the rules are. I have competed for over fifty years now in many disciplines of archery and at a fairly high level in all of them. It is now more controversial than it has ever been as far as rules and stupid behavior is concerned. That is why I choose to attend and shoot but not compete with rare exceptions now, it is sucking the fun out of it. I have competed successfully against almost any set up you can dream up as a instinctive/and gap shooter and agree that a gap shooter can compete against a string walker in some venues but not so well in others. Are there advantages for some styles of shooting in some venues ? without a doubt and that is why I would always push for a sight ,barebow (string walking), and traditional division for competition. I just wish the organizations would get it the same everywhere and then leave it alone and quit making exceptions every week but doubt that will ever happen.

Lets consider something else on the string walking. I agree that out to thirty yards or so as one encounters in 3D a good gap shooter does not always take a back seat to a string walker. Do they take a back seat to a sight shooter ? Another problem is that many organizations are finding a marked distance form of 3D or the use of range finders being allowed is fast becoming more popular than unmarked distance shoots. 3D which started out as a form of hunting practice has devolved into just another target game. The argument is that archery is a shooting skill sport and not one of distance estimation is fast becoming very popular. Look at the ASA and IBO forums to see how this argument is shaping up. Would this give a string walker a decided advantage over a gap/instinctive shooter ? I believe it would and that is why I support the several divisions concept. Is there enough difference between a modern longbow and a recurve shot the same way with the same arrows to justify a longbow division. I ask because I do not know being a dedicated recurve shooter and only a for fun longbow shooter.

Deni, at known distances, I suspect a string walker would have an advantage over many shooters not using that method, but a good gap shooter meeting the criteria I listed earlier, could probably still hold their own.

If you are going to compete, it's an absolute "MUST", that you know how to tune your equipment in order to be competitive, and I'm not just talking about tuning for good arrow flight.

I've been to way to many competitions where "tuning" apparently had not been even slightly seriously addressed by some shooters, yet the complaints I usually heard were from those same shooters.

I could be wrong, but I firmly believe, that "good" gap shooters will usually rule the roost on those 30 yard & less unknown distance 3D competitions, but knowing how to do/use both gap, and string walking is an amazing thing to witness, when a shooter is proficient in them.

Like I said in an earlier post. Competition is also about what's between your ears. Those who use their brain to shoot better without altering their equipment have my utmost respect.

Rick

"Lets consider something else on the string walking. I agree that out to thirty yards or so as one encounters in 3D a good gap shooter does not always take a back seat to a string walker. Do they take a back seat to a sight shooter ?"

A sight shooter is not a winner by default. I participate in a decent amount of 3D competitions over the years and compound shooters are not all the best of the best. I came in some of them 10th overall several times when the pool was between 80 and 100 archers. I had just 9 compound shooters on top of me and these were full competition rigs and range finders. The 30 yards game in the woods is not what some think. In front of the paper, things are different.

I agree with Rick. I shoot in competitions respecting the rules but in reality shooting against better aiming systems makes me improve mine and overcome its shortcomings. I use my barebow rig just for Field and Indoor not for 3D.

Rick, amen to that on the tuning. I have seen a lot of poor arrow flight from people who were in some major shoots and you would have thought knew better. Draven you are right for sure, a compound and all the trimmings do not a good shooter always make.I live close to DeWayne Martin and have seen and shot with him a fair amount and believe me he does not take a back seat to anyone however you want to do it, string walking, gap, or longbow or against a compound. Probably the best all around shooter I have ever seen and I have seen some of the best, darn nice guy as well.Rick , back to the tuning a moment. Could not agree more. I qualified for the Olympic trials and Us team trials twice, you had to shoot a minimum of 1100 points on a FITA (90, 70, 50, and 30 meters) and do that twice just to make the trials back then. I was amazed to see a lot of poorly set up bows and arrows and poor arrow flight even there. I did not make the teams but did pretty well against much better and more experienced shooters by simply having things right, it do matter for sure.

Interesting discussion. Pretty much the same discussion has been going on for many years. And it will continue to on for many years more. And nothing really much will ever change when competition for any sort of prize is concerned. That is why when I go to a shoot the only one I am competing against is myself. When I get to a shoot I show them what I have and tell them how I shoot. I let them tell me what class I am in and happily go shoot.

I just read the new rules for the traditional division for ASA which they say are the world archery rules for this class and had to revise my opinion of those rules. In traditional you can use a ILF bow if it has a wood riser but not a metal riser ILF bow. Weights may be built into the riser as long as you cant see them but not added. A simple plastic rest , feather rest from the manufacture, or a covering on the shelf and side plate of exact dimensions, you can face walk but not string walk in this division. You can not attach a bow quiver. Guess my Trad tech is out even at 58 inches off the shelf (metal riser) Guess my Bob Lee is out (Micarta riser) My metal riser Bear take downs are out (metal riser and the side plate sticks up to high) They pride themselves as being inclusive ? Will it be included when it all becomes "world archery" that you cant wear camo even on your socks or use a camo bow or arrow because they do not want to be related to hunting ? They can have it then. I will be all IBO.if I ever compete again which I now doubt. They have no clue what gives an advantage and what does not and folks what your bow is made of is not it. Done with it.

I’m gonna agree with this:

“Having a class deemed ‘instinctive’ is at the very least ’silly’.

There is no possible way to prove (or disprove) a person is shooting instinctively.”

100%

The rest of it, I am Out Of My Depth.

But don't they have a Olympic bow class. Thought they did.

Well, it shore ain’t “Barebow”!

Maybe Freestyle/Unlimited?

When comparing a string walker or gap shooter to a sight shooter, consider an arrow is 3/8" and you are aiming with that compared to a 1/16" or 1/8" sight pin. Which would be more precise?

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