Hope everyone is having a fantastic day. I've got a question and it's probably fairly controversial. We hear the term "shooting instinctive" a lot. I've got something stuck in my head which probably needs to be worked out, but I've started to believe that everyone aims someway when shooting a trad bow. Lot's of people say they shoot instinctive and a person can definitely shoot that way and it's a lot of fun, but it doesn't seem like there's consistency at all with purely instinctive and are they themselves actually aiming also? I believe the indians shot fairly instinctive, but they lived and died with a bow in their hands. Here it is.....I'd venture to say everyone aims somehow. I'm not sure there's such a thing as shooting instinctive when it's a hobby or sport

Yes everyone "aims" the arrow in one way or the other, whether they say so or not! If you don't aim you can't hit zilch. And yes pointing is aiming!

That's what I think also

No, some practice so much they do not need to aim on shorter distances, about 25 yards and closer for most. At longer distances some gap, I am one. Paul Brunner made some great shooting videos on the subject. Practice, practice and practice, no short cuts, and absolutely no dumb mind games.

Sorry, horseback archers for example do not aim. It is a purely intuitive technique. Instinctive shooting should be called intuitive shooting and works from memorized situations from our brain. Aiming is conscious and intuitive is sub-conscious. People can shoot static and people can shoot with fluid techniques. Static techniques have fixed anchor points and rigid bow arms while fluid techniques can have for example an arrow release zone. These archers pull a little further to shoot longer distance instead of just moving their bow-arm. Or they do both. Especially used in what I call an "in between distance", a distance where you would have to lift your arm so little that you would shoot over because you can't reproduce this reliably (without and hard aiming technique) and overdrawing will give you those extra 3- 4 yards.

I think it can probably be done, to a degree, by only a small percentage of shooters.

Define aiming. When you train you mind/eye and body by shooting regularly it will carry over to that mystical thing we like to call instinctive shooting. You are still aiming but not so much as a cognitive thing. The issue is everyone has an opinion so it can be debated until hell freezes over and still no one will agree. So it's basically a rhetorical question. :)

"Practice, practice and practice, no short cuts, and absolutely no dumb mind games."

About as simple it gets right there.

Here we go again! lol

And by simple I mean, right to the point in my opinion.

I going to say a 100% aim on the second shot.

Yep. Everybody who hits what they’re shooting at is aiming in one way or another.

Some systems are more conscious and intentional than others; those are the quickest and easiest to learn.

I look at what I want to hit, not any part of the bow or arrow. So you can call that whatever you want.

Why do I feel like this was the subject of the very first Leatherwall thread 22 years ago? LOL

I shoot like Red.

I aim subconsciously.

AIM - To point a weapon at an object: To direct: Aim carefully before shooting. Straight from the dictionary.

If you don't point or direct your bow & arrow at the target you will certainly miss it. How you do it is tough to explain but you have to accomplish it somehow until guided arrows are invented. Even "guided" missiles are directed toward the intended target to start with.

When I shot from my horse I could only "aim/direct" the bow to the left side of the horse. There is no way I could aim to the right side. Impossible to draw the bow right handed unless I sat the saddle backwards. The target or animal had to be approached or passed with it on the left side.It is all fun. >>>----> Ken

I always liked the guys who could get the job done hunting while utilizing a variety of methods and shooting positions, why limit yourself? Practice, practice and practice, have fun, no head games, no reason to panic.

Conscious and subconscious aiming should be the terms we use. Because that's what it is.

I don't consciously aim but I do point so like Kelly said I am aiming,

Yes

After watching Frank aka aspirinbuster, I believe some people can truly shoot instinctive. I am not one of them. I aim right down the arrow. And so did Mr Bear.

I started shooting trad instinctive. The problem I had was on a miss…concentrating harder just didnt work for me though i still shoot 15y and in on critters instinctive.

I went to a gap…seeing how much more accurate it is, I never looked back.

Now I have multiple references I can use. Its a double check…it gives me confidence….and my shooting is much more accurate even out at 40,50yds.

Let’s face it, a lot of guys quit trade shooting because they cannot consistently hit what they are aiming at. Too many missed animals, and shooting scattering arrows gets to be no fun.

When a guy develops good alignment and good repeatable form then has an aming system he can be deadly accurate in the woods.

NO! I've come to that realization by watching many of them miss repeatedly.

I aim.

Limbwalker, You missed a category, unconscious, aka clueless :)

Seems to be a lot of aimless shooters here. I don't shoot aimlessly.

Do I use the tip of my arrow consciously? NO!

Do I look down the arrow consciously? No!

Do I pick a spot and consciously concentrate on it? Yes!

But I do see where the arrow is pointed in my secondary vision and that arrow is pointed where I want to hit. If I can't see where the arrow is pointed I'm not going to hit anything.

Don't know why so many feel it's a sin to admit they see the arrow in secondary vision!

Agree with practice, practice makes perfect but knowing where that arrow is pointed needs to be part of the equation, even if you are not consciously focused on it.

I shoot pretty much like Kelly. My thing is I don’t think about anything but my sight picture of the target, and the spot on the target. I suck at yardage estimation, so I just let years of shooting take control and release when it feels right. At 20 yards and under, not much of a problem, it just happens and pretty accurately. The problem is longer shots, if my brain doesn’t calculate correctly and I miss, I’m just as liable to miss just the same on a second and third shot because I can’t really tell you where I was holding, other than the arrow “ pointing” at the target. In that situation my arrows are usually laying very close together because my brain calculated the shot the same each time.

Am I aiming? Yes! Can I tell you where or how? NO! But for hunting it works for me. I set up my shots for 15 yards and less and things usually work out OK.

LOL 2wild. I did indeed. :D

Of course.

But I would be called a troll for this thread lol

But I would be called a troll for this thread lol

Do you aim a baseball ,football golf ,horse shoes no it's instinctively. How do you not see the arrow, the mind learns to block it out. when you look at a target 20 yards away what is your field of view? From one side of you head to the other but when you aim it all gets blocked out. You don't see your hand. But it's right in front of you.

Instinctive shooting is fun. I sometimes do it just to see where my arrow hits, but think about it. Have you ever watched any sort of competition archery and thought "hmmmm that guy is shooting 100% instinctive?" No. because they don't. They aim. True you must have disciplined and repeatable form for success, but I think everyone aims and yes when I throw any sort of ball I aim also. Watch someone play horseshoes, they stand there and eye in the stake and do a couple mock throws before they throw the shoe. There is instinctive shooting of course, but no reliable instinctive shooting without aiming

Use to have candle shoot at archery league, 20 yards put the candle out with no lights on. Fun days

The mind "learns to block it out..." LOL That's the funniest thing I've read today.

Bigdog, you ever seen a young kid throw a ball the very first time?

I can shoot in the dark if I see the target

I can shoot in the dark if I see the target

Want to see true "instinctive" shooting sometime? Go to a Renaissance Festival. LOL It ain't pretty.

Baby, if you can see the target you can see your arrow, too!

I shoot my bow just like a shot basketball in high school and college and now still for fun. We don't look at the ball, we don't look at our hands, we don't look at our feet, our eyes are on the rim. We don't measure distance of our shot, we just shoot. You don't look at the football or baseball and aim before throwing, you just throw it instinctively. I don't look at my bow, my hand or the arrow, I look at what I want to hit only. Yes, I used to aim, yes I used to walk the string, yes I used to use a reference point on my bow, yes I used to gap shoot and yes I've had sights on my bows. But, instinctive has been the most enjoyable. Maybe that's why Michael Jorden missed alot of shots because he didn't have an aiming device, just saying.

The OP asked;”Does everyone aim?” Short answer - yes.

There is no such thing as “muscle memory.” Nor is it possible to hit a target relying on your “instincts.”

As Limbwalker explained, some archers aim consciously (with a specific reference point) and others aim unconsciously.

The resistance to this simple explanation is a function of perpetuating trad myths, which were made up as a marketing stunt to sell some books (when people still read books) and gear.

For those of you who think you can “rely on muscle memory” to shoot “instinctively” try lining up with the target at 10 yards or more, close your eyes, and shoot 5 arrows.

Limb walker no he can't but he learns his brain figures it out. And how do you focus on a spot with so much going on around you. What you think your eyes dial in and focused down on one spot lol. No

We just need to eliminate the word “ INSTINCTIVE “ out of archery, and that would end all arguments……

@bentstick54 I agree, but also I enjoy a good argument. You learn a lot, even from the ones that disagree with you

Do you aim when you throw a stone?

bentstick we'd start arguing about whether tree stand were ethical, or some other stupid sh.t LOL

Apperintatly not, missed the turkeys by a mile

Only if it's a baker

Some people use sights, or sighting.

Small minds argue about what the meaning of is is.

But I still think there is something different going one when most people shoot a bird out of the air with a bow than when they assume a T stance, and make shot after shat at paper.

In the history of archery there would have been a lot of very pressed for time reactive shooting in combat and hunting. The mongols took over large parts of the world shooting tiny bows off galloping horses. Confucius said one would never shoot a bird at rest.

We see things through out own lens, and archery has become largely a static discipline compared to what it once was, so we assume that is the only thing that exists.

It is also odd because there are tons of things you can't really aim but that people are surprisingly accurate with. Golf is one example. Golf instruction is largely devoid of even where the visual concentration is focused, or was when I learned it in the 90s. But spears, rocks, sling shots, atlats. Can't a pro pitcher bean someone if he wants to? Yet archery where a lot of things are made simpler, is the one activity that has to be aimed.

Given how they showbized the Olympic archery game, they should make the deciding round aerial targets and see what happens.

----------

Of course traditional archery today, is very similar to the way compound/unlimited archery was 30 years ago. Just as modern black powder has taken over. I do think aiming is a good idea on game if one takes a zero misses approach to it. I don't know that even the best archers never miss on live game.

Stones, baseballs, basketballs, funny examples. If you don't aim try it with your eyes closed. Golf; don't look before you line up the shot. What are the marks on a basketball court for? Pro players know exactly where they are & what the distance is. You tell me you don't see the basketball when you line up a free throw. You definitely have tunnel vision. I thought everyone looked directly over the center of it. Why not change the height of the basket after every shot? If you changed the distance to the pitcher mound, the distance between the bases, the infield track & the outfield track after every play. how accurate would they be. It shouldn't make any difference even to Michael Jordan if they are truly instinctive & don't aim.

Every time you miss the arrow wasn't pointed/aimed at the spot you wanted to hit. Why even pick a spot? If You are not going to aim at it. Gee this is easy & fun but I am getting sleepy. Night all, >>>----> Ken

define "aim"

Yeah, uh...no...uh...some. In the end, for me it came down to "point and click" just using shaft alignment peripherally up to 20 yards. For 25 and 30(which, for eastern bowhunting is plenty)I align the shaft and tip(point on at 25, and about 8 inches high at 30. This mixed method works very very well.

Maybe. I guess you are right. I don’t know enough to disagree with ya. Lol. I always thought I shot instinctive but I guess I don’t. I do know that I don’t make a conscious effort to look at the arrow

"but knowing where that arrow is pointed needs to be part of the equation"

For some, not for everyone.

I'm not about to stop using the term Instinctive because it perfectly describes how folks do it, and as a bonus, it apparently sticks in the craw of those with an agenda to denigrate it... or those who do it.

Instinct: behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level.

I do aim a bow but I don't aim a shotgun. I look at the bird with the gun barrel in my periphery pulling the proper lead instinctively. Actually, pulling the proper lead is a learned skill but you NEVER look at the barrel. There, I said it, the dreaded instinctive word.

2 Bears nailed it.

Jeff, your only "instinctive" shot is your very first. Every single one after that is aimed. Hence my Ren Fest reference.

Go sit at a Ren Fest and watch people try archery for the very first time. Their first shot is usually instinctive unless someone has told them how to aim, but even then they have never shot that particular bow before. Their 2nd shot, and every one after that is aimed.

There is nothing "instinctive" about it. It's the wrong term.

You're either aiming consciously or subconsciously, but you're aiming either way.

Reddoge, I'm sorry to inform you that when you see the gun barrel in your peripheral vision and estimating the lead, that's aiming. Just because you're not looking at the barrel (or arrow) doesn't mean you have no idea where it's pointed.

Gah I can't believe I let myself get sucked in to this ignorant argument yet again. 20+ years and I still haven't learned. LOL

So all it boils down to is people just want to argue about the WORD. As limbwalker states “ it’s the wrong term”. So what , what do you want to call it that everyone can agree on. I bet no term exists.

And why we are at it, let’s come up with a general term to replace “ traditional, or trad” to differentiate between shooting selfbows, recurves, and longbows, and compounds, that doesn’t get somebody’s panties in a bind.

Absolutely.

Yes!Your minds eye see's what's going on with every shot you make.Good or bad.Whether the arrow,your bow hand or whatever.It's in your peripheral vision and either direct or subconscious aiming occurs from that.

Jim Ploen told me years ago that if a person wasn't using an accessory/add on sight of some kind he considered them to be shooting "instinctively". Since then that has always made sense to me.

Lots of good feedback here, and some not so much, BUT I will agree with those that say it depends on the definition of AIM. Watch some youtube of Jeff Kavanagh. His aim is that he pics the spot to shoot. Snuffing out candles, and busting clay targets does not allow one to consciously set a "gap" of any sorts, and if you try to make yourself point at and see like the split vision you most likely will never get drawn. I believe the "instinctive" shot is real, and there are people who absolutely do not use the tip of the arrow. I WISHED I could shoot this way, but their aim seems to be more in the bow hand and just relying on the brain to "point" at the spot. There is an aim, but the archer is oblivious to it.

-Bones

I am not getting sucked into this either. How I shoot? Pick the spot I am wanting to hit, draw, come to anchor, settle in, focus on the spot and release. If I draw, anchor, see the point of my arrow? I let down and start over making sure I do not see the point of my arrow. Call it what you want, I will call it what I want.

AIM verb 1. point or direct (a weapon or camera) at a target. "aim the camcorder at some suitable object"

2. have the intention of achieving.

Yes, everyone aims. Shooting instinctive is called "instinctive aiming." You aren't aiming with a sight, but you are aiming nonetheless. It's a combo of muscle memory, vision, and kinesthetic sense.

I've heard people try to disparage instinctive shooting and wave it away as some "mystical" technique that makes no sense or debunk it by saying 'you're just aiming subconsciously'. That's the point though -- it IS subconscious aiming. Hence "instinctive".

I know a bunch of us get mad at the very mention of his name, but Lars Anderson doesn't have enough time to aim for most of his shots. Those of us who aim couldn't begin to match his accuracy on the kind of shooting he does.

Look up the word "propreoception."

Limbwalker, you are certainly right about this being a much recycled topic.

I am pleased to think that one obnoxious 'waller who used to be strident on this topic has not posted in a decade or so and probably will not weigh in here.

bentstick, it's either conscious or subconscious aiming. But that doesn't have the "cool factor" that "instinctive" does.

For some dumb reason, some people just want to feel like they have some kind of superpower. It's actually kind of weird how they won't admit they are aiming. Like, who exactly are they hoping to impress?

Anything with sights or sighting methods you have to aim. Then there is the dominate eye crap when you have to aim. You don't see baseball players closing an eye and aiming or any other throwing or kicking action. Aiming.........maybe "Wishing" the ball or arrow gets to its destination because you have trained your brain/muscles/body through Practice. Simple for an instictive shooter..........tough for the guy who's aiming system is off. Be done with the aiming crap and buy a compound........ or practice.

of course everyone aims regardless of shooting method/style. your question tends me to believe that you feel that shooting instinctively one does not aim. the instinctive part is the judging of the distance just as any baseball or football player throwing or even kicking/punting a ball. IMHO the words instinctive or snap shooting over the years have both gotten bad or negative raps from those technicals who choose to shoot other shooting methods who to me they might as well be shooting a compound bow but shooting a trad bow lQQks cooler or have become psychiatrists using the terms "conscious or subconscious" aiming.

if not aiming - close the eyes, draw, anchor and shoot. see how you do.

Some of you seem to equate "aiming" as anything related to wanting to hit a particular spot.

Most of you don't bother to read more than a few previous posts.

for sure I aim. My aiming is - get my shooting eye directly over the top of the arrow... thus eliminating left and right error. After that - I "feel" 15 yards... and come up however much the range past 15 requires. 50% of the time it works most of the time.

Stickshooter, conscious or subconscious aiming are just the correct terms, in case anyone chooses to use proper English. Calling subconscious aiming "instinctive" is simply not correct. It's not instinctive. But it doesn't bother some people to be wrong, and they are free to do that.

Limbwalker -- hilarious.

Despite you best efforts to alter the English language and archery lingo all on you're own, you are incorrect.

Google "instinctive aiming". 7.7 MILLION results, mostly archery related.

Google "subconscious aiming" 1,250 results. None archery related.

Per the dictionary:

INSTINCTIVE: in·stinc·tive -- relating to or prompted by instinct; apparently unconscious or automatic.

It means the same thing as subconscious, so you could use either term interchangeably here. "instinctive aiming" is the correct, accepted term, however. Why you prefer the alternate over the accepted is a mystery. I think it's because "instinctive" sounds too cool for you and makes you feel bad -- but that doesn't mean it's the wrong term! :)

People that complain about instictive archery don't understand what it is. It isn't JUST muscle memory or some magic. No, you can't do it with your eyes closed, that's dumb.

It is a COMBINATION of visual ques (where is the target? Where is my riser? Where am I?), Kinesthetic sense (How is my body aligned at full draw? Where are my shoulders, where is the arrow pointing?) AND muscle memory (when I stand like this and my body points this way, the arrow goes there).

It is aiming subconsciously/unconsciously. That's what instinctive is. You don't think about it. Through enough practice, it becomes instinct. You feeeel it. When you are on target, it feels right and you release.

Yes you do aim, it is all a matter of definition as to what you call the chosen method and it does not matter what you call it in the least. Instinctive is a common accepted term for a aiming method. Call it what you like, instinctive , subconscious, unconscious or whatever, it is the same thing. The accepted word for it among practitioners is instinctive so rather than pick at a word to prove how smart you think you are Or as I call it the swallow a camel and gag on a Nat syndrome just accept the word instinctive. I doubt anyone who shoots instinctive does it to be "cool" or "trad" they do it because it works for them in what they do.

if you aim at nothing, you'll hit it every time.

Yes, we all aim. Be it conscious or unconsciously...aka instinctively.

Actually it is hand-eye coordination.

Well then I shoot subconsciously and know the yardage by doing it over and over. I’ve heard Gus say they put the point of the arrow at the animals feet. Lol

I am with tradmt. As long as you kill stuff it doesn’t matter. I am going hunting. One more thing. I think Asbells books years ago started the instinctive term. He and Brunner

I anchor with my middle finger in the corner of my mouth, put nock under my eye and aim down the arrow putting the end of the arrow on my intended spot.

Yes, I take some time to aim. Because I don't shoot as much as I used to. My shoulders can't take all the shootings like I liked to do. So now I have to concentrate more and aim. JF

You put the arrow in line with your eye--to aim it. You pick a spot- to aim at. Bow hand in line with string hand elbow in line with arrow-to aim it. Shoulders in line parallel to arrow perpendicular to target- to aim. If you practise enough you can aim without thinking about it.

Aim: to point a weapon at a target. Aim: To plan & do something on purpose ie. I aim to finish- I aim to succeed.

If you point your bow at the target --you aimed. If you hit the bull on purpose you aimed to hit it. It is hard to do accidently.

From the looks of a lot of targets I agree you don't aim :<)

Who is mad? Whose pantys are in a wad? This is all fun. I don't AIM to do it much longer. >>>----> Ken

Limbwalker, if you are consciously estimating lead with a shotgun you aren't shooting like I am.

Was going to post how I shoot but since those of us that prefer the term “instinctive “ have been called wrong, dumb and given the inference of ignorance, guess I’ll not.

I don't consciously aim at all, I stare at the spot I want to hit all through my draw and release the moment I hit full draw. So I snap shoot. The arrow is somewhere below and right of the target but I don't see it. How I wish I had some type of aiming system, I tried gap and string walking but can't do it.

I shoot instinctive period !!!!!!!!!!!!! I do not aim with arrow point or whatever. I focus on where I what the arrow to go and release. I trust the force and let her fly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just like when I am throwing a baseball. You could say it is muscle memory or magic

I love to shoot my bows and I do it every day Maybe that is why it works for me , I don't know and don't care. I just love to shoot traditional archery.

g2knee, not sure why the personal attacks are necessary. "makes me feel bad?" Really? You think I feel bad? LOL You clearly don't know much about me. I might be the happiest most satisfied person you know if you met me. ;)

Call it what you want. I literally don't care because it makes zero difference to me. You found one definition of instinctive that used the word subconscious. Good for you! Maybe we're BOTH right! Ever think of that?

reddoge, what you're describing is precisely how Byron Ferguson teaches in his book. Read it some time and tell me what you think.

Babysaph, we agree on one thing, it really doesn't matter!

I just had a thought, the next time I can try this in a safe place, I am going to shoot in the dark with a laser pointer pointing at a target and see if I can hit it or how close. That would confirm if I truly shoot instinctively.

That would settle it.

I’ve been shooting instinctively ever since I started shooting traditional. I tried gap and felt wonky being left eye dominant and right hand shooter, couldn’t get used to that sight picture at all. I do believe our minds map out trajectory just as someone throwing a ball to another person knows to not try and throw it 60 yards when the person is 15 yards away. I only focus on the spot I want to hit, I don’t see the arrow out of my peripheral, don’t reference the tip at all so I don’t feel like I’m aiming but again it took a bunch of arrows for my mind to build up its range finder. I think a lot of people, not saying anyone in particular want to believe that everyone aims because they didn’t put in the reps to make instinctive work for them. I believe gap shooting or some other form of fixed aiming are the easiest ways to obtain reasonable accuracy the fastest, I wish I could make it work for me as I definitely have seen it’s advantages especially on a 3D course. With all that rambling being said I always suggest to shoot what works for you, don’t worry about what it is, don’t try to fit in a box or put others in one, pull a string and have some fun

Thekunk. You could go blind and they would still say your aming. Lol.

Worth noting;

The Instinctive aiming guys rarely win or place high in tournaments……

Gap and stringwalkers just smoke them accuracy wise….and its not even close.

Now I did it….we will now have to hear about the one time an Instinctive guy made a great shot…….yeah, it happens.

I’m talking about consistent repeatable accuracy- Gap and SW wins by a longshot especially when longer shots are involved.

.

So to the guys who say throwing a baseball, throwing a football, throwing a basketball, or throwing a cornhole bag is the same as shooting a bow I'll agree with you......IF, you throw the arrow at the target, not pull a bow back and let a string go. Not the same motion whatsoever.

Bruce Lance, I agree. I’m an instinctive shooter that competes in 3D and thought I was shooting good until I saw the scores that gappers and SW put up

I am not a target shooter, I get close to my live game, pick a spot, do not see my arrow, and kill it. Similar to the G Fred style. No idea what that would be called on the target course, cheating I guess.

reddogge, we agree again. The comparison with throwing a ball isn't the same.

Missouribreaks, that's called poke and hope. If you get close enough, it even works.

What about the guy who can shoot behind his back and never see the arrow till it's

gone ?

Does anyone remember a fellow named Keith Bain ? Several time IBO world Champion. Always claimed he was a total instinctive shot. How about Rick Welsh, again several times a world champion that also claimed to be instinctive. Is there some reason to believe they are lying about this beyond someone else's ego getting beat up on a bit ? Is instinctive the best way for static targets such as under the guise of a target game ? As a long time competitor I think not. On the other hand is string walking as practical for a lot of hunting situations ? again I think not. For a specialized purpose there are ways that work better for that situation than others. How many tournament shooters use instinctive aiming now, how many have ever learned how to do it and put in the time now days ? Yes better scores are shot on a consistent basis in tournaments by string walking and gapping but you are mistaken to discount the ability of a good instinctive shot to hang with anybody at closer ranges. I shoot with a guy who lives close to me a lot named Duane Martin, he is the best I have ever seen gapping or string walking, look up the name if you don't know what he has accomplished. Does he beat me a old instinctive shooter ? Yes he does but he does not embarrass me and over the years I have got him a time or two so yes instinctive does work if you put in the time and effort. A good instinctive archer must have excellent form, spend a lot of time at it, it is not just flinging random arrows. Some people can make it work and some can not just like any sport.

Yes everyone aims. Some just have a lot better aiming system. Of course those good shooters are not lying.They/we just use the wrong words describing what they do. You can learn to aim behind your back. When you miss by 10 feet you make a correction in your stance or shift the bow. If the next shot is a little closer you make another adjustment in the way you are aiming. If you practice enough you can aim that way well enough to hit what you are aiming at. If you don't know how you aim you can't make a correction to get any closer. The hundredth arrow will be no better that the first. >>>----> Ken

A good hunter always gets close enough, or he does not take the shot.

Other forms of structured shooting for paper score have different requirements. That is not me.

This is like having a discussion with my wife. There will never be an end to the discussion. Regardless of how many variables exist, nobody will concede that there might be some truth to all sides.

Has anyone brought up shooting out a candle in the dark?

Does everyone aim? Short answer - yes. Long answer - yes, but...

For those of you who do not care to practice enough to become proficient, may I suggest a scoped crossbow to alleviate any anxiety.

Everyone aims. Some of us admit that we do.

Just go buy a scoped crossbow, they are legal in most states now during the general archery seasons. No practice required.

OK, If you consider the act of concentration on a location where I want my arrow to hit as aiming not referencing anything else than yes I will say I am aiming by looking at what I what to hit.

I can live with that.

1 Kings 22:34 The Message (MSG)

Just then someone, without aiming, shot an arrow randomly into the crowd and hit the king of Israel in the chink of his armor. The king told his charioteer, “Turn back! Get me out of here— I’m wounded.”

Tell em a day Man. You don’t have to aim to hit stuff

I think there is a basic misinterpretation of terms behind this never-ending argument.

Sighting systems and aiming systems are what I hear in the content of these discussions. Yes, they are both aiming but not the same in implementation. This is a left brain right brain thing, as in one takes conscious thought and the other does not.

With clarity in defining terms this 'discussion' might actually have an agreeable ending.

2Bears is right again.

I guess I had it wrong, I always felt aiming utilized a reference point, such as an arrow, arrow tip, pin, crosshairs etc. I did not realize baseball, football and basketball players are actually aiming the ball. Learn something every day.

Come on guys, what about the old time gun slingers. If they would look at their gun at

all they would be dead. Also the quick draws of today.

Shot that one gapping/stringwalking /instinctive / behind my back

If aiming is a complex mental process that is guiding the body to a stance from which you are capable to send an arrow "there" while using a bow everybody is aiming. If for some aiming is just "to see the arrow", not all are aiming.

Hexx, try shooting your bow from the hip and let us know how you do compared to bringing the arrow up under your eye. ;)

LOL, I have never seen something like this cause such an uproar!!! Gappers/stringwalkers think that is the only way to shoot and can't comprehend shooting without a physical aiming device. Instinctive or shooting by focus aiming has been around forever. Why can you not understand? Yes, you are aiming in a sense because your trying to hit something. You just are not using an aiming device to do it.

Instinctive is the best term for it because it is in fact behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level. Be objective, honest, and think about it. That's precisely how it's learned, improved, and used in real time. And if one doesn't understand, or refuses to acknowledge those immutable basics, what standing do they have to criticize the term. None. Instinctive aiming/shooting just fits. But let the liberal word nazis call it subconscious if they must, that's on them. It exposes them, and that's a good thing.

Instinctive is 'not' the best word to describe a shooting style that requires tons of practice over a very long time to learn and become proficient.

Cambridge dictionary definition.

"Instinctive behavior or reactions are not thought about, planned, or developed by training:"

Instinctive movement is something you are born with. Like ducking when you see something big coming at your head or grabbing a branch if you start to fall from a tree.

What we call 'instinctive shooting' is learned and requires a certain aptitude. It is using hand/eye coordination and muscle memory through repetitive movement channeled through the subconscious part of the brain. There is undoubtedly a physiological aspect needed to excel in this. That means some people will be much better at it than others, as is true with all physical endeavors.

Aiming when using 'instinctive shooting' is only done with the 'mind' focusing on the the target, subconsciously. Even if arrow proximity is part of that process it is still a far cry from using a sighting system such as gap or string-walking.

It is a very natural and enjoyable way to shoot a bow.

I shoot a bow like you would throw a baseball or cast a fly rod. Pretty much look at what I am shooting at.

I usually miss at night when I can't see the bowl, and especially when..well..you know.. lol

Well maybe term is wrong but most know what is meant when a hunter says he shoots instinctive. Like I said Abel started all of that in his books.

I'm amazed the number of times someone just feels like this is a new topic and equally amazed when all the regulars get sucked in again and think that THIS is the time they will get their point made. lol

I have learned that, for me, accuracy in archery as in shooting trap are perishable skills. This reinforces practice.

Is Byron Ferguson a good shot?

Does he shoot instinctive or aim?

Jeff, you just put "learned" and "instinctive" in the same sentence. Think about that.

Babysaph, you're just confirming that Asbell is wrong about more than one thing. LOL

Runner, it is amazing, isn't it!

2Bears, Byron aimed like hell until it became subconscious aiming. It's well chronicled in his book.

Perhaps what Asbell does works for Asbell for what he does, perhaps it works for some others as well, so that makes it wrong because you do things differently for what you do ?

For what he does, anything will do.

{{{"Has anyone brought up shooting out a candle in the dark?"}}}

Why would they? If the candle's lit, it wouldn't be dark.

:^)

Matthew 5:14-16

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house....

I know science has become a bit of a no no to some .... but for those that live in the real world, I used this as a signature on another archery site....

" Spatial summation occurs when several action potentials AP1,AP2 and AP3 arrive simultaneously from different synapses on the same post synaptic membrane." In other words ...aiming.

Yes,aiming is what someone does to reach a desired goal. However, to use this verb in an effort to imply that things like throwing a ball or shooting a bow with target focus alone are somehow the same as using a sighting system that is based on mathematics, is wrong.

Ok I got sucked in , call it what you want, but a guy shooting aerial targets, trick shots is shooting gap/point on/string walking? Come on now :)

This guy is a gapper/stringwalker/point on guy, no way he has any instinctive skills!

https://youtu.be/zw-MIf8PHQw

James Jean is amazing. The guys that think everybody gaps are absolutely clueless.

"I'm amazed the number of times someone just feels like this is a new topic and equally amazed when all the regulars get sucked in again and think that THIS is the time they will get their point made. lol "

Runner, very insightful and spot on. LOL.

I remember these same debates in the 1960's. It will not be solved here, just because we have internet experts. Instinctive is a poor term, but whatever you want to call it, leave it to the select few hunters who are proficient with the method.The rest should get a sight, or even a scoped and cocked crossbow.

just his term is wrong IMO. I switched to that way when I found I could not judge distance.I had pins on my compound and the pin I used was based on a know distance. I notice that most of the guys that shoot compounds use a device that allows them to see how far the target is and their shot depend on getting that right. Since I switched to this "learned" method of shooting I do not need to know the distance. I only shoot out to 15 yards though. It is not hard if you keep your shots short. JMO. Amd what Missouri breaks said. Shoot what you need to kill deer

I don't want to take anything away from James Jean he is fantastic. In every shot you can see his focus & watch him track the target just like a guided missile. He is aiming hard & accurate.

I only asked about Bryon to make a point. Look at his picture on his new book. It is on another thread. Hand arm arrow in perfect alignment under his eye. Aiming

You think James Jean makes those bouncing, curved, shots the first try / instinctively? Not hardly he sets the bow up shoots the shot notes where the curve is then places the targets & obstructions then practice practice. He plants the ramps picks a spot on one to hit then notes the trajectory, sets the targets then practice practice practice.

Multiple balloon hits with multiple arrows. Shoots the arrows a few times marks the hits on the backstop then places the balloons. Do you really think he could do it if you had him back up 5 yards without moving the balloons? How about if you moved the balloons around to random spots before the shot?

James is the best I have ever seen. Get serious he don't do it without setting up, aiming, & practise. >>>---> Ken

And Aspirinbuster could bust mustard seeds out of the air behind his back.

I hadn’t been here in awhile. The more things change the more they stay the same. Haha.

Good to see you fellas again. I’ll let you carry on.

By the way, the shows are starting to come around again - so I hope to see y’all in 2023. I’ll be back in Pittsburgh Feb 2023. Also McAllen Texas July 2023. We are also taking to promoters in other states so things may eventually get back to normal. Around 2018 I was doing about 30 weekends a year(events). I’ve performed in 43 states at last count. One of the 7 called for 2023- so we may finally get another state added to my list. I doubt anyone in Vermont will ever call though. Maybe ?!? Ha

Come see a live show and see for yourself instinctive shooting. The late Rev Stacy Groscup and I always liked LIVE shows the best.

I’ve been on LW for 17-18 years now. Fine folks. Some are stubborn and like to argue but all in all it’s one big family. Enjoy archery and don’t waste too much time arguing- you each have a right to your own opinion.

Frank

Not everyone. Some always miss. :<) >>>>-----> Ken

It is the age of redefining everything. Ok it's not instinctive on the leather wall because you say so. But it is in every book that has been written on the subject. Time to go hunting best of luck regardless of what you want to call your method.

I saw this guy aiming on the line at my club and told him to stop. After he hit the bullseye he looked at me like I had lost my mind…

Stix,,,I can't stop laughing, oh s(&t. How about we call it looking, as every says about their favorite bow,,,"it shoots right where I'm looking"

Not only does Byron Ferguson aim, he describes his aiming method in his book. Some of you guys...

Howard Hill described his aiming and I think John Schultz made reference to aiming.

No i do not aim and i never understood how somebody can say how I shoot unless they are in my mind. I cant tell you how you shoot either, but don't try to tell me what I do. Thank YOu

Yes & he is lined up right over the arrow shaft with his right eye, both hands in alignment, & AIMING down the length of the shaft. What did you do tell him to hold the bow behind his back? 8<) >>-->Ken

Just to add some (maybe) stimulating thought to the debate/argument:

Aiming = Calculating.

No matter how we do it individually, in some way, we all calculate the shot.

Rick

I use "The Force". ;P

I aim my rifles, why wouldn’t I aim my recurve, your rear sight on the bow is your anchor, some guys do it differently though

[[[ "I use "The Force". ;P " ]]]

Yes princess - we know. ;P :D :P

Rick

Those of us that say we shoot instinctive only say that to freak all the hard aimers out. We are really aiming? We don't judge yardage, we don't hold our bows vertical, we don't sight down the arrow shaft, we don't use the point, we don't string walk, we do point and we do pick a spot.

This debate has been going on as far back as I can remember..lol

People have their own opinions but I know I look at the spot I want to hit and shoot..maybe I'm using split vision, sort of..and don't know it? I've wondered about that at times if I may be using split vision..either way, I look at my spot and shoot. I believe good form is necessary regardless of what method we use.

A pitcher standing on the mound, looks where he wants to throw the ball and throws it...whatever you want to call it, he's not thinking about yardage, he just throws the ball. I believe the brain stores the memory with practice and good form.

Agree with live to hunt. Guys tha need a gimmick don’t get and that’s ok too. Not everyone can do it

Not judgement buddy. The truth. I call things like I see em. I am convinced not everyone can pitch for the Yankees nor shoot a bow without some sort of aiming device. It’s not my judgement or opinion. It’s the way it is and nothing wrong with that. Same way with my wool comment. I simply don’t think Asbell wool is as good in real cold weather as the expensive stuff. Again the truth.

Son, sometimes a man has use his judgement.

Good advice from my Dad. Still true today.

Both aiming I suppose, one is a hard aiming method where you have to know the distance, gap or use the arrow point. Instinctive aiming using nothing but your brain/hand eye/bow arm/etc is another method without something to calculate your hold.

I just finished Don Thomas' book, The answer is " NO ".

If a person has total sensory deprivation there would be no ability to aim. Do you remember the old song about the “deaf, dumb, and blind kid” playing pinball?

However, if a shooter has the desire to hit a target, then the person will at least orient himself towards the target. That is conscious aiming. Proprioception will direct the person at least in the correct hemisphere. That is subconscious aiming. So those are two methods by which a shooter aims at least to a minimal degree.

These two methods of spatial awareness can be further analyzed and discussed in membership subscription to the newly released App entitled “Nobody can prove that I aim or even look at the target!” by Mr. I. Aint Aware, pDq.

"Does everyone aim?"

Yes. The Eastern Archery Theoreticians are saying we all aim and this is done with our mind, our body and our spirit/heart - where mind is creating the intention to send the arrow there, the shooting stance at full draw is positioning the arrow in a way that the arrow will go where we want and the spirit takes care of the way we execute. If these 3 are not forming a "whole", we are better playing cards and drinking whiskey. We westerners are debating which part of these 3 is more important and we are most of the time falling short in understanding that aiming is not if "I see the arrow" or not.

Wokeness or stupidity. I am still debating which is it

Let me get my bong or LSD out and think about some of the comments!!! LOL.

When Herman Lehmann, from Loyal Valley, Texas, returned home from his nine year stint with Apache and Comanche Indians, he kept himself in adult beverages with his archery skills. He made bets with traveling salesmen that he could hit their hat at 100 paces. He did it often enough until word got around how good he was. He could hit a man with a blunt arrow at 150 paces. He probably used the Apache Draw, seeing as that is where he first got his archery education. He was adopted into the Comanche tribe and the U. S. Government gave him a head right in Oklahoma. Too bad Saxton Pope didn't interview him. Whatever aiming method he used, he was good at it. bvd

Works do matter. So I apologized on the wool thread. I guess gimmick insulted some too. I should just say not everyone can hit what they are looking at.

"A pitcher standing on the mound, looks where he wants to throw the ball and throws it...whatever you want to call it, he's not thinking about yardage,"

Well that's because the yardage has been set forever. ;)

We are pointing the arrow at the target, we are aiming. It is not that we are not aiming it is that we do it in different ways. Call it whatever you like as far as instinctive as the proper word. It may be technically incorrect but it is the accepted term pretty much.Trying to change it from that is just trying to show that your smarter (you think) than others. Some people can do it well others cant. There are times it is the method to get the best results and times it is not. I always love it when someone else tells me I see the arrow because I "have to" It is called total focus on the target, a very narrow focus so no I do not see the arrow. I wonder why those who are not able to do this seem so desperate to prove others do not do it as well. A lot of ego I think. Lastly who cares? you do your thing I do mine

I hear ya Orange. you have to understand that I like to get these guys going. They are east and predictable. I have friends that use a crossbow and even a rifle. I don't care what they need to kill a deer. I truly don't. I only bemoan people when they hold me to one standard but no one else. If I kill a deer I will be in the pic. Otherwise it could be just a pic off the internet. JMO.

easy not east

Yep. Everybody aims who means to hit. We just don’t all do it exactly the same way… and some of us who DO do it the same way don’t have the same conscious experience of it. So we can honestly believe that we’re doing it differently even though we probably aren’t.

Best definition there is of “instinctive” shooting there is is that the calculation that Rick mentioned is performed at a subconscious level… and how anyone can claim to be aware/cognizant of the fact that he is or is not doing something subconsciously… kind of begs the question of whether they comprehend the meaning of SUBconscious.

We all have our own limits as to our gifts for hand-eye coordination, but whatever level we’ve achieved has come through learning. Repetition. And we can almost all of us improve from where we are through Form Work. The more diligent the effort, the better the outcome is likely to be.

Sometimes I think real hard about a shot, sometimes I just let it rip. But the more careful I am when I think about it, the better I get at letting it rip. Win-Win.

Never will understand why some are offended by the possibility/suggestion that they could get even better than they are by learning a new trick.

Stacy Groscup was in my mind one of our greatest instinctive shooters. Like him I tell people I’m not smart enough to gap or aim with a sight. I look at what I want to hit. Now obviously hours and hours of shooting allows my computer (brain) to have memory and also my eyes collect data - the brain processes it and the hands angle the bow etc and position the bow so the arrow strikes its target. Your bow- my bow- whatever. It’s not the bow. It’s the style.

The brain is amazing - let it do its thing. Train your self with practice but at the end of the day instinctive shooting is shooting in its purest form. Mentally and physically it all comes together.

A blended style of some instinctive and some gap might just be the best because I tell you instinctive shooting is a short range method. It’s not meant for long distances. That’s where a gap would help. I e just never spent any time doing that.

My fascination began in 1971 and I’ve been drawn to stick and string ever since. I love seeing a projectile strike its intended target. They recently took me skeet shooting for the first time ever. I had done it with a bow. Anyway- I hit 58/100 my first try with a gun that is never fired before. It was great. I think with my own gun and some practice I could get 90 or more. It is really fun. I was using a 20 gauge.

I hope to go again soon. I’ll let you fellas know when I get my score up !

However you shoot have fun and help others develop their own style. Just enjoy your sport amigos. It’s the best.

Frank

When your at full draw aiming do you see the riser, the arrow rest, your bow hand. At full draw ready to release? I bet you don't see any of it and it's all right in front of you.

Listen to AspirinBuster, he understands.

I pulled trap and skeet at ENT AFB in Co Spgs back in 1969-70 when I was 15-16. I pulled at a couple skeet tourneys. The really great Skeet shots could smoke birds with a .410. Best I ever did on a round was 23. Never got dead bird on station 8.

Best on trap was also 23, but from 16 yards. All your hot shots were full back. I was into it but $ was very tight back then. I did all that with my 870 12 gauge.

The first bow hunter that I was aware of when I was a kid in the '50s, made the All American NSSA team 17 years in a row, after he was 70 years old. He broke 3 world records. He died last year at 99 years old. I grew up across the street from him. Bill "Bobo" Bobownik was his name. bvd

I didn't read 195 posts so forgive me if this has been mentioned.

If you have a basement. Go down there in the pitch black. Set up a target 10-12 yards away with a 2-3" glow in the dark spot on it. Let me know how your instincts work.

Pearl I have tried this exactly as you suggested at ten yards, no problem being within an inch of the spot every time. Where the eye looks the hand points apparently. But of course you may not believe that which makes no difference to me whatever but I am sure there are a lot of others who can do the same thing if not better. Why do people persist with trying to prove that at close range simply pointing the hand toward a spot is impossible ? Why is it such a big deal to them? Go shoot however you want, it is your business and NO ONE else's. One of the stupidest arguments of all times driven by the I have to prove I am always right syndrome; To go with the idea that nobody can do these stupid test is ridiculous because you WILL find people who can if you look hard enough.I worked at one time with blind young adults that learned to shoot a bow toward a sound, they did not see the bow, riser or arrow at all and grouped after a time of practice quite well at close range. Guess the hand can learn to point where a sound is detected just like the eye can.

Pearl, I shoot in the dark without a light all the time at 3d deer targets. Pretty amazing at how it works.

How can you see your target in pitch black darkness?

I see the shape and look where I want to hit. Better with the white target with a deer picture on it, I see the silhouette and pick my spot. Have no idea where I hit till I go up and pull arrows and am pleasantly surprised most times on hitting and grouping. When you do something repeditally for a long time, everything comes up to alignment. You would not be able to do it well with a hard aim style of shooting.

"how can you see your target in pitch black darkness"? Because you said place glow in the dark dots. LOL

Most don't believe that shooting like this can be done because they can not do it. It is a short range game. Great for hunting IMO. Most don't believe a major league pitcher can hit that catchers mitt either. If you need to gap or crawl or walk or whatever then do it. No big deal really.

I would call that more of a low light shooting scenario. I'm talking pitch black and ALL you can see is a 2-3" round spot, nothing more.

Why is there a need to tell others what they see? Pure liberal wokism at work.I cannot do it, so neither can you.

Exactly, laser dot from ten yards. Don't try to consciously line up on it just focus on dot and shoot. Ten yards was pretty easy, much past that not so much. Fifteen yards was close but scattered at twenty.

Doc, I challenge you to try exactly as I described. Video it and post it on here. Be sure you use a large backstop of some sort so you don't ruin any pricey arrows.

Deni, that's what I was trying to getting at. I don't care how anybody shoots or what they call their style of shooting. But, if you label yourself a a "non-aimer" then you shouldn't need to see your arrow or the bow because you don't aim with anything. You would simply need a target and nothing more.

Guys -

Any chance of giving this a rest?

Viper out.

No thanks. But, I appreciate you asking nicely.

Just remember, if you’re going to do that shot in the dark thing…

Any target that casts light is going to reflect off the shaft of your arrow, and your peripheral vision is remarkably sensitive in low light. So you can see things in your peripheral vision that you can’t make out when you’re looking right at them.

I really enjoy shooting black bull’s-eye targets with the 2 inch white X ring on them in low light for exactly that reason; in about 30 yards, if I am looking directly at that bull’s-eye, it will vanish because the spot where our vision is most acute has no white light receptors; it’s all color vision and so the sensitivity in low light is quite poor. Therefore, if I can’t see it, I am definitely looking directly at it. I shot one of the best vertical line groups of my life doing that one afternoon. If I had managed to get the elevation, exactly the same on every shot I would have gotten multiple Robin Hoods for my trouble. At least four shots, maybe six. I’ll see if I can find it…

No, I am rooting for Frisky. Can't wait to see his big buck- little buck,doe,yearling,fawn or Missed it by that much. Come on Frisky get with it. >>>>------> Ken

Whoops wrong thread above. The only one longer than this one.

There are many ways to shoot. There are many ways to aim. There is no best way but there are more accurate ways. 1. no sights/instinctive a close range game, from all the posts & the least accurate. 2. open sights/gaping & string walking a little more accurate. 3.crude sights/the point of the arrow & looking down the shaft.A little more accurate yet. 4. sights/pins the most accurate so far. 5. Scopes/magnification & or fine crosshairs. The most accurate of all. Check the scores & distances. No sight, open sights, & scopes also true for guns. But AIM we will if we want to hit anything.>>-->Ken

Not likely a quarterback hits a moving target at various (5 to 50 yards) yardages, and calls it aiming, nor does anyone else! It is simple hand-eye coordination, which I would loosely term "instinctive"! Oh and as far as baseball, try running on Winfield, Mantle, Tucker, Betts, et al in their heyday, at any distance! They simply did not aim, nor did they think about the throw! Purely "instinctive"!

Practice in shooting in low light comes in handy before and after legal hunting hours. ;) bvd

I can guarantee you - shooting at a tiny little light in the pitch dark is a very revealing practice.

I've seen guys shoot the floor.

I've seen them shoot high up on the wall behind the target butt.

I've seen them shoot all over the wall around the target butt.

I've seen few "very few" who got reasonably close to the light, and even fewer who got within a standard indoor bullseye size of it.

Now, before folks start chiming in about shooting at night outside in the dark. That don't cut it, because even on a moonless night there is some light to utilize. It has got to be indoor, with all light sources blocked off - "Pitch Dark"

:-)

Rick

I've finally been sucked in enough to respond. Everybody aims. Whether it's a conscious aiming such as gap, sight shooting, fixed crawl or instinctive, people aim. Instinctive shooting is simply the act of shooting thousands of shots to train your subconscious telling you where to hold. That process is not something we think about, thus people claiming they're purely instinctive. The analogy of throwing a baseball is the same. if it's the first time you throw a ball from left field to home, who knows where that ball ends up. But after doing if for some time, your subconscious tells your body how hard to throw and how high. It's a learned process.

Must be most guys are too lazy to shoot thousands of shots.

Well if I can’t see the target or course I can’t hit it. Duh.

Ever watch guys that are expert with a sling shot? From the hip from the chest, about any which way you can imagine. Looks pretty instinctive, subconscious to me??

Pear Drums I never said I was not an aimer. I stated that what we refer to as instinctive is aiming. As far as posting it to a video what good would that do, pretty easy to show whatever results you want there I think. I have done your test, with a laser pointer way far enough away there was no ambient light. Pass it easily, at ten yards. To me, a life long so called instinctive shooter it comes as a surprise that other people may not be able to. The idea that someone somewhere cant is ridiculous as no one knows what another person is capable of. It is simply a matter of hand eye or even sound coordination . Perhaps people need to research a bit farther such as on demonstrations of visually impaired people doing what many think can not be done such as shooting a bow at a target with a sound device to use as a "aiming" point and doing very well at close range. They certainly do not see the arrow or aim in a conventional sense. The human mind and body is an amazing thing if we allow it to be so.

If you don’t aim, you don’t hit your target. Simple. Ask Jim Ploen if you don’t think you need to aim .

[[[ "Well if I can’t see the target or course I can’t hit it. Duh." ]]]

But, Jack. You can see the target. It's just all you can see.

Rick

The term "Instinctive shooting" as applied here is actually referring to an enhanced 'conditioned reflex'. The words we use and what they mean matter.

Does knowing that change what it is or make those that use it, delusional? No,it does not. If you are shooting with the conscious and calculated system, that follows a mental checklist, you are most definitely not a 'conditioned reflex' shooter.

DMc ... a conditioned motor response, yes .. the brain has multiple complex mechanisms to fascilitate that ... a conditioned reflex ,sorry no. A reflex assumes no involvement of the central nervous system.

That some declare that they don't aim is laughable. Now... most of that process may be so ingrained that it not require much/any conscious effort is worthy of discussion.

When I ride a bike I'm not trying to keep my balance... because that's been rehearsed enough to stuff it in the subconscious. Same with working through the gears of a stick shift... no thought or required effort. BUT there was a time when riding a bike and driving a stick took 100% conscious focus. After a few gazillions of times... your sub-conscious takes that task over. But "you" are still pedaling, shifting... and aiming.

So ... if I look at what I want to hit .... is that aiming Yes or No

Phil... yes and no. I did use the phrase 'conditioned reflex' as opposed to just 'reflex'. Reflexive movement can indeed be altered/augmented by intentional guiding efforts to do so. Take the example: not twitching when a fly lands on the trained sniper.

I believe that the act of hunting is more than just an acquired skill or movement but instead a deep-seated part of our past, whereas, a random conditioned movement can have no ancestral relevance at all.

Instinct: behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level

Merriam Webster

Wow! I love this thread. I've been watching it on the Leatherwall for over 25 years now. And it hasn't changed a bit nor has it ever been settled. In the end the whole subject is about the definition of two words...aim and instinctive. Everybody gets out their version of the dictionary to prove their point.

I shoot an arrow with my bow to try and hit a specific target. I know what I do to accomplish this. I don't care what anyone wants to call what I do. I have reached the point, after all these threads, of not wanting to use a single word to describe the technique I use. When you do that you inevitably have to deal with dictionary quoters who can't accept the fact that certain terms in virtually every pursuit have historically come to be applied to certain aspects of that pursuit. Many times terms have come to be used even if the dictionary definition is not strictly adhered to. Deal with it.

I AIM

Ok I don't know how I shoot but it works. And I sure don't string walk are I would know it. But how many are typing on there key board are phone and not looking down there finger.? Now I do wonder about the string walk and tune has anyone bare shaft are paper tuned with there fingers in all the positions of string walking? I know it wouldn't be a concern in targets, but it would be with a broadheads and wanting best arrow flight.? Just asking if it makes a difference. in tune are flight.

"Just asking if it makes a difference. in tune are flight." stringwalking/finger position does make a difference in arrow flight. Typically (whether talking of hunting OR target shooting) optimal tune is sought at the mid range of the expected use environment. For example, if most of a shooters targets are going to be under 40 yards, then MOST folks will seek optimal tune at say 20 yards. (remember these are just examples).

Now...as for hunting. It's the same concept. And no, there isn't really enough difference in the flight characteristics and letahlity of an arrow tuned with a 20 yard crawl and regular 3 under, index against the nock tune. It's been done for years. Long before it was an internet thing.

We like to pretend there is.......but there's not.

I concentrate on what I want to hit. That is my aiming. If you don’t agree, you can’t imagine how little I care.

Thanks fpd. I have never seen it done,

We concentrate on the road ahead of us as we drive. Instinct keeps us between the lines. Right? I mean I just look at where I want to drive and the rest handles itself.

So, when at 15 yards, I pick out an arrow hole and put an arrow into it my brain is aiming, my eyes are looking telling my brain where to hit. So yes, my brain is aiming, physically I'm not.

Well I agree with that jarhead. But that type of aiming does not require me to know distance or to creep or crawl or shoot 3 under or gap or look down the shaft and that’s all I care about. It does require constant practice

“Ever watch guys that are expert with a sling shot? From the hip from the chest, about any which way you can imagine. Looks pretty instinctive, subconscious to me??”

So obviously, what we really, really need here is a new kind of fly to throw into the ointment… Because what we are really talking about now is visual aiming versus proprioceptive aiming. Proprioceptive means that you know where your two hands are in relation to where your eyeballs are pointed.

And as has been stated here, repeatedly, we all can and do a shoot this way on a regular basis with varying degrees of success. It generally works best at quite short range.

FWIW, if there were any shortage of value in the proprioceptive component of shooting, nobody would ever have advocated Blind Bale shooting, now would they? But by the same token, if you inform your proprioceptive learning process with visual input, you’ll learn a lot better and faster.