Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Who do you feel is a true hunter

Messages posted to thread:
thekunk 22-Sep-22
tradmt 22-Sep-22
Breakfast Boy 22-Sep-22
Live2Hunt 22-Sep-22
George D. Stout 22-Sep-22
MGF 22-Sep-22
9/10 Broke 22-Sep-22
timex 22-Sep-22
2 bears 22-Sep-22
Missouribreaks 22-Sep-22
Verdeburl 22-Sep-22
HEXX 22-Sep-22
Iwander 22-Sep-22
9/10 Broke 22-Sep-22
9/10 Broke 22-Sep-22
Will tell 22-Sep-22
2Wild Bill 22-Sep-22
Bigdog 21 22-Sep-22
PhantomWolf 22-Sep-22
Krag 22-Sep-22
grizz 22-Sep-22
Treeman 22-Sep-22
grizz 22-Sep-22
9/10 Broke 22-Sep-22
Greenstyk 22-Sep-22
Greenstyk 22-Sep-22
4t5 22-Sep-22
spike78 22-Sep-22
GUTPILEPA 22-Sep-22
Runner 22-Sep-22
Jed Gitchel 22-Sep-22
Supernaut 22-Sep-22
Jason H 22-Sep-22
Stix 22-Sep-22
Nemophilist 22-Sep-22
Nemophilist 22-Sep-22
Greenstyk 22-Sep-22
9/10 Broke 22-Sep-22
elkpacker 22-Sep-22
Smokedinpa 22-Sep-22
9/10 Broke 22-Sep-22
TrapperKayak 22-Sep-22
Babysaph 23-Sep-22
Corax_latrans 23-Sep-22
shade mt 23-Sep-22
bowhunt 23-Sep-22
Jed Gitchel 23-Sep-22
Live2Hunt 23-Sep-22
longbow1968 23-Sep-22
George D. Stout 23-Sep-22
boatbuilder 23-Sep-22
Supernaut 23-Sep-22
Sasquatch73 23-Sep-22
Reb 23-Sep-22
grizz 23-Sep-22
Rick Barbee 23-Sep-22
ButchMo 23-Sep-22
9/10 Broke 23-Sep-22
tobywon 23-Sep-22
Beendare 23-Sep-22
Ricky The Cabel Guy 23-Sep-22
old fudd 23-Sep-22
9/10 Broke 23-Sep-22
grizz 23-Sep-22
Rick Barbee 23-Sep-22
grizz 23-Sep-22
Corax_latrans 23-Sep-22
Rick Barbee 23-Sep-22
Jeff Durnell 23-Sep-22
9/10 Broke 23-Sep-22
Babysaph 23-Sep-22
shade mt 25-Sep-22
LBshooter 25-Sep-22
Missouribreaks 25-Sep-22
9/10 Broke 25-Sep-22
somedude 25-Sep-22
Foggy Mountain 25-Sep-22
9/10 Broke 25-Sep-22
David McLendon 25-Sep-22
limbwalker 25-Sep-22
groundhunter50 26-Sep-22
From: thekunk
Date: 22-Sep-22




I was thinking yesterday, as I was looking through a bowhunting magazine. I see several hunter's shooting these 200 inch plus monster's over their private food plot's year after year pushing their equipment and so on. That got me thinking, The hunter's I admire the most are the one's that can go hunt any property, go scout it and sometimes harvest a big mature buck or a mature doe for that matter. Those are the hunters I tip my hat to and admire. Just my two cent's. What are you thought's?

From: tradmt
Date: 22-Sep-22




A true hunter? Someone that truly hunts I suppose.

I’m not going to claim that someone I don’t know is or isn’t a true hunter. That’s my thoughts.

From: Breakfast Boy Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Sep-22




Monty Browning, Jim Eeckout and Bryan Burkhardt to name just a few that I know personally.

From: Live2Hunt
Date: 22-Sep-22




One that goes out into a forest and hunts the game without the use of artificial feed or private ownership. Only them, there wits and the game.

From: George D. Stout
Date: 22-Sep-22




Questions like this bring out the usual answers of well-known bowhunters. Some of the best I've ever encountered never wrote an article, or ever bragged about how good they were and likely ever will. They just go about hunting as they were taught by their dads, grandpaps, uncles, or other mentors of the time.

I don't get all wrapped up in hero worship of the video sport, we all have seen some of those guys going down; just look around you at the guys who were born of hunters and really know what they are doing, and don't need any validation.

From: MGF
Date: 22-Sep-22




I don't know who is or isn't but I do know that not all hunting is equal. I know people who shoot big deer every year by sitting in the same tree...not much hunting about it.

I'd sure like the chance to try it just once.

From: 9/10 Broke
Date: 22-Sep-22




"Some of the best I've ever encountered never wrote an article, or ever bragged about how good they were and likely ever will"

^^^^This^^^^

From: timex
Date: 22-Sep-22




A true hunter is someone that doesn't depend on the grocery store to feed themselves.

Myself personally think of it as being self sufficient. Between hunting fishing and a garden my family spends very little at the grocery store for food.

From: 2 bears
Date: 22-Sep-22




Some "true hunters" may not be very productive. It takes access to productive property no matter how you hunt. In most cases that takes more time or money than many have available. >>>----> Ken

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 22-Sep-22




It all depends on locale, species hunted, and land resources available to the hunter, amongst other variables. I do not have admiration for any one hunter.

From: Verdeburl
Date: 22-Sep-22




I admired my uncle in his years of hunting. However I have no specific person in our hunting world/community these days. What I do admire are those who simply abide by all the laws, and rules set forth where they are hunting. I could care less about the weapon, and choices of equipment as long as they are playing by the rules, and laws set forth by where they are hunting.

From: HEXX
Date: 22-Sep-22




I was told that some Native Americans would not brag about their success just thank

the Creator for providing the gift. Maybe a lesson we should all learn.

From: Iwander
Date: 22-Sep-22




They are all as a drop in the bucket to Frisky!

From: 9/10 Broke
Date: 22-Sep-22




I know a fella that hunts public land here in Alabama and scores big every year. Most years he scores big more than once. He hunts all seasons and uses all types of weapons. He walks for miles and miles and miles scouting. He finds the sign he's looking for and hunts a particular buck. He is a trophy hunter and his determination and dedication are unbelievable. I do fancy a big buck but since the dawn of deer farming I have learned to truly appreciate a free range basket rack.

From: 9/10 Broke
Date: 22-Sep-22




JamesS )))========> Do you know Miss Tiffany or are you just spouting negative information without spending 5 minutes to know the facts? :^)

From: Will tell
Date: 22-Sep-22




Elmer Fudd

From: 2Wild Bill
Date: 22-Sep-22




Chuck Adams.

From: Bigdog 21
Date: 22-Sep-22




Doesn't need a feeder , food plots, are trail cams. Would be a good start and will hunt anything for good on the table

From: PhantomWolf
Date: 22-Sep-22




Paul Schafer was based on all the stories I've read about him, written and witnessed by other outstanding true hunters.

From: Krag
Date: 22-Sep-22




There are pure hunters as in the ancient definition of hunter/gatherer timex alluded to then there's the hunter in a sportsman context that doesn't rely solely on it for sustenance but is as successful as he wants to be for his own personal reasons and motivations. Don't know any personally but for the big woods and terrain he hunts I think shade mt can get it done.

From: grizz
Date: 22-Sep-22




I hunt private and public land. I’ve known guys you could drop off on deer farm and come home empty handed. Some I’ve known would put meat on the table if they hunted the worst parcel of land in the county. Public assures you of nothing as far as a hunters ability or ethics. Some of the worst skank slob hunters I’ve known hunted public land. Just because you hunt private land doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a blithering idiot with no woods skills.

I’d hate to think I shot my mouth off about someone that I didn’t know, assuming their complete absence of skills. Then end up having my butt handed to me in a basket by a little short blond. I just ain’t gonna make that call.

From: Treeman
Date: 22-Sep-22




I know they're compound hunters but the Hunting Public gang are awesome hunters.

From: grizz
Date: 22-Sep-22

grizz's embedded Photo



I’ll add my vote for a true hunter.

From: 9/10 Broke
Date: 22-Sep-22




X2 for Nemo.

My apologies James. I couldn’t resist. I don’t know Miss Tiffany but would be willing to bet that she can read a compass.

From: Greenstyk
Date: 22-Sep-22




Yep Nemo is the real deal.

From: Greenstyk
Date: 22-Sep-22




When I was in high school there were a few of us that played football together and hunted anything we could. One of us his mother ran a day care business out of her home. A guy named Arlin had his daughter in the day care and he took us under his wing. He is the best deer hunter I’ve ever been around and he hunted with us and passed valuable information on to us. I still credit him with teaching us how to hunt deer. I use techniques he taught us to this day. He had a big heart and he gets my vote.

From: 4t5
Date: 22-Sep-22




Cougar and the Wolf

From: spike78
Date: 22-Sep-22




Most tv hunters are a joke. Take them off the ranches and they wouldn’t know where to begin. It becomes a mental game going a week or more of sits not seeing a single deer. Hell here in MA I’ve gone a season full of squirrel sightings. Sitting in a blind hunting “pet” deer are a disservice to the youth that get disappointed going out expecting to sit in a field and have a ton of deer come out everyday. Maybe I’m different but I have no desire to pay someone to put me in a stand to shoot a big buck. Most of the fun comes from learning the area and getting it done.

From: GUTPILEPA
Date: 22-Sep-22




Absolutely 110% spike78

From: Runner
Date: 22-Sep-22

Runner's embedded Photo



This kid can just walk up to them.

From: Jed Gitchel
Date: 22-Sep-22




Grizz x3

From: Supernaut
Date: 22-Sep-22




Grizz X4.

Frank (Nemo) hunts harder than anyone I know. He's probably just coming in as I'm typing this as I know he was out today. He doesn't miss many days when the season starts.

He needs a hip replacement and scheduled it for AFTER archery season.

He's killed more game with a stick bow than anyone I know AND he can prove it not just type about.

I'm lucky to live about a mile from Frank and proud to call him my friend. When Frank talks about hunting, I listen.

From: Jason H
Date: 22-Sep-22




Supernaut, you are fortunate! Learn all you can!

From: Stix
Date: 22-Sep-22




ME, and whoever else is hunting.

From: Nemophilist
Date: 22-Sep-22

Nemophilist's embedded Photo



Thanks guys for the kind words. There are better bowhunters than me though. But I do hunt hard and miss very few days. If you don't hunt hard in my area your chances of killing a buck are slim. I've been out hunting every day since archery started in my area. Seen quite a few does but no bucks so far. It's tough hunting in my area. Lots of hunting pressure. I give a lot of credit to my wife, she supports my bowhunting 100%. She like to joke with me sometimes. Last year she texted this picture of me on a milk carton when I was out hunting since I'm gone a lot in archery season.

The orthopedic doctor did tell me I needed a hip replacement (bone on bone and arthritis) back in June. I told him fine I'll get it done in February. He said to me why so long from now, why in February? I told him there is no deer hunting in February and I'm not missing archery season. Hip hurts like heck sometimes, but I keep on going.

From: Nemophilist
Date: 22-Sep-22




My pick for a true hardcore bowhunter would be Roger Rothhaar.

From: Greenstyk
Date: 22-Sep-22




Good luck hunting and with the hip Frank.

From: 9/10 Broke
Date: 22-Sep-22




When ya need help dragging Frank give me a call.

From: elkpacker
Date: 22-Sep-22




I second Frisky, who ever he is. I am sure he is out hunting right now

From: Smokedinpa
Date: 22-Sep-22




Crispin and Nemo for sure.

From: 9/10 Broke
Date: 22-Sep-22




Yessir. Crispin is a killer too.

From: TrapperKayak
Date: 22-Sep-22

TrapperKayak's embedded Photo



I can drive up to them... ;)

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 23-Sep-22




I agree about ole Nemo. He gets it done

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 23-Sep-22




I’m not going to name any names, because right out of the gate, a “true“ hunter is doing it for the hunt, rather than as a means of self promotion.

And I’m not even going to suppose that any specific level of “success” is a necessary qualification. To me, it all comes down to whether the hunter in question goes out in search of the animals, or creates conditions which alter the animal behavior to drive them to come to him.

To me, it’s pretty straightforward: a true hunter is someone who goes out and finds the animals, either directly, as in still-hunting or spot & stalk, or sizes up a good location to sit and wait. For me, if I’m going to use a tree stand, it’s only a hunt the first time. I am not going to say that I don’t know of a few trees where I could hang a stand and go kill a deer (at least on the first day of the season in a typical year). But once I figure out one spot, then that mystery is solved, and it’s time to move onto a new one.

I love eating venison, but the primary reason that I hunt is to get better at it. I do believe that you learn more from your failures than from your successes, and I guess it might be fair to say that I’m pretty Learned Hunter by now. I’m OK with that. How “true” or “pure” a hunter I am, I can’t say and can’t say I care very much. I do it the way I do to please myself. Good enough for me.

From: shade mt
Date: 23-Sep-22




nemo nailed it with his milk carton pic.

behind every good hunter is a VERY understanding wife.

unless of course your single, in which case your probably preoccupied with dating and girls, so refer back to first comment.

From: bowhunt
Date: 23-Sep-22




Thier alot of true hunters.Guys who know the habitat and the nature of the game they hunt and have accrued alot of knowledge and wisdom from the time they have spent in the outdoors paying alot of attention to all the nuances that are going on around the natural world around them.Many of these guys are well read about alot things having to do with being successful at what they are trying to accomplish or have had mentors if thier lucky on thier journey.Knowledge, experience and passion make for a true hunter and the love of the game they hunt and the land they live in.Many are born with some of these attributes IMO.Many are not.

Good luck with your hip replacement Frank.I went 10 months with bone on bone and sucked it up while making it through a hunting and angling season and hard work and got it done when the peak fishing was over 2 months ago and it all worked out.Getting along well know with no pain.No pain no gain.Good luck with your hunting Season and your surgery!

I liked Fred Bear as a shining example of a true hunter that all here know of.Many unknown men that I consider to be true hunters that I have been priveleged to know and appreciate with thier ethics and emersion into the Art and pursuit of hunting as a way of life.It made all of them better men in the end in many ways outside of hunting alone!

From: Jed Gitchel
Date: 23-Sep-22




Corax, I disagree. A good hunter uses reason, skill and experience which should lead to success. A person may be satisfied with a pleasant outing. A hunter is driven to accomplish a goal. In my experience the more you hunt the same stand , the more difficult it becomes. I'm more interested in learning from someone who has figured out how to be successful in their pursuit. Failure is a good teacher but I want to learn how to be consistently successful. If you listen to someone who can't prove they are who they say they are it may cost you time and the success you are striving for. It's not always about self promotion, most of us will never make a dime hunting.

From: Live2Hunt
Date: 23-Sep-22




So true about a good wife. I have not sat yet this year and my wife said the other night that I had better rethink my hobbies? Needless to say, it is not going well. If you want to hunt and hunt hard, do yourself a favor and either stay single or make sure you find a good wife like others have on here.

From: longbow1968
Date: 23-Sep-22




Some good candidates here. My vote is going to be for that unknown guy who gets up at 4:30, drives an hour by himself, to hunt by himself on public land, with a stickbow. Oh yeah, if successful, he gets to drag/haul it out of the woods by himself. I say this because I freely admit that I am not that guy any more. If I don’t have a buddy or younger guy to prod me, I might just sleep in and drink coffee, but life is good, however you choose to do it.

From: George D. Stout
Date: 23-Sep-22




We are blessed nowadays with large game populations, and even more so, bigger racked bucks due to antler restrictions and also better food conditions. If I'm looking for a 'best hunter', I'm looking back in the 40's or 50's when deer were very hard to find, and bucks weren't groomed with minerals and proteins to make them grow huge racks. Guys who took game regularly then were hunters, they mostly had to be to feed their families, not vie for monetizing their hunts on youtube videos.

From: boatbuilder
Date: 23-Sep-22




Not me, I like being out but the killer instinct is going away.

From: Supernaut
Date: 23-Sep-22




Jed X2.

Great post in my opinion!

From: Sasquatch73
Date: 23-Sep-22




The person you know because of your relationship with them and Hunting, might be yourself. Someone within your "Dunbar Number Theory". The rest of the folks are part of the Illusion for me. Great entertainment, but I do not know them, they exist is all, I can not say they are Good Hunters.

From: Reb
Date: 23-Sep-22




A person who knows how to hunt and does it with out all the fanfare.

From: grizz
Date: 23-Sep-22




GF, you do realize that giving praise to some other than yourself, is not self promotion…….. Right?

After that it’s pretty much Jed X3

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 23-Sep-22




[[[ Stix said: "ME, and whoever else is hunting." ]]]

Pretty much my opinion as well.

"Best" is subjective "at best". It really is heavily dependent on an individuals reasons, desires, conditions, and circumstances.

Rick

From: ButchMo
Date: 23-Sep-22




Robert Carter

From: 9/10 Broke
Date: 23-Sep-22




Whoever it is, or they are, I think that a pure respect for the game you're hunting is at the top of the list of requirements for such an honor and I think that most folks in this community fit that bill.

From: tobywon
Date: 23-Sep-22




When I first read the title before even opening, the fist thought that came into my mind were felines. Bobcats, Mountain Lions, Lynx and whatever other cat species are tops as far as tracking, stalking prey, and pure are killers. As far as people go, there are just to many variables to consider. I agree with MDF, not all hunting is equal. I'd say the DIY guys that consistently produce on public land are right up there.

From: Beendare
Date: 23-Sep-22




I know a bunch of great hunters…all under the radar guys.

My buddy Robert has taken hundreds of animals with his one recurve, a 30 yr old Black Widow.

He has killed multiple whitetails stalking them on the ground…inc a 170” about 5 yrs ago

He has killed many hogs, blacktails etc stalking…inc 3 coues deer buck….Stalking.

Thats a hunter right there….

From: Ricky The Cabel Guy
Date: 23-Sep-22




a true hunter is anyone who gets what theyre looking for out of the experience...legally of course.

From: old fudd
Date: 23-Sep-22




My 31 year old Grandson. Shot a huge 4x4 Mule Deer one evening 2 years ago. All in Velvet, After waiting an hour we started the Blood Trail, And BOOM Southern Utah Down Pour. Lost the Blood got Dark. Went back in the morning, NO BLOOD So we started a grid search After a few hours we found him. And the damn song dogs got to him and had that deer down to bleached bone, My Grandson took out his Archery Tag>> Punched it out and Tagged the Deers antlers. Told us I Killed Him and I owe it to this Buck, to Burn my tag and Hunt next year, He said Grandpa you taught me what the word ETHICS was all about. My responsbilty to honer the right to hunt as well as your harvest, I Consider him a BOWHUNTER! Superguy. Started shooting and stalking my 3 D target at age 3, And he's a GREAT HUNTER

From: 9/10 Broke
Date: 23-Sep-22




Great story fudd. Ya done good. Thanks for sharing.

From: grizz
Date: 23-Sep-22




Question was; who do feel is a “True Hunter” not the best hunter. There can be many true hunters that aren’t necessarily the best.

old fudd, I think your grandson is a True Hunter.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 23-Sep-22




[[[ griss said: "Question was; who do feel is a “True Hunter” not the best hunter. There can be many true hunters that aren’t necessarily the best." ]]]

You are correct, and I agree.

Remove "best", and insert "true" in it's place, and the meaning of my comment remains the same.

Rick

From: grizz
Date: 23-Sep-22




It was an in general observation. Not necessarily directed at anyone in particular. Ok Barbie.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 23-Sep-22




Guess I must’ve touched a nerve there. Not sure why, but suit yourself. That’s all I ever suggested that I was trying to do, so I’m not going to argue. How you could infer that having a primary objective of Getting Better At It is not reflective of a desire to “succeed“ is beyond me; If a “true hunter” uses his knowledge and experience, well… How does one go about accumulating knowledge and experience?

As the man said, “I kill to say that I have hunted.“

I will say that I agree with Tobywon that something like a mountain lion comes to mind, in that they have to puzzle it through and either set up an ambush or slip in undetected until they are within ambush distance. They are a great role model for a bowhunter. They are also successful (like most other predators) only about 10% of the time. A lot of human hunters, including a few who think they are pretty hot stuff, would probably QUIT if they went 10 full days in a row without connecting.

But this is one of those endeavors in which there are as many fine distinctions as you have the patience to parse out. Just one example: the story that Fudd told about his grandson is one which I would say does a tremendous job of defining Sportsmanship; clearly a highly ethical young man and someone any father or grandfather would rightly be awfully proud of.

Is there a distinction between being a Sportsman and being a True Hunter? I would say at the very least that they are deeply interwoven, but I’m going to leave it at that and shoot some arrows…

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 23-Sep-22




Oh, I knew/know that grizz, but to the "best" of my recollection, I was the only one who used the word, and it was not suitable for the topic.

Rick

From: Jeff Durnell
Date: 23-Sep-22




Been saying for decades... Watch cats hunt. Stillhunt. Hunt like a cat. Don't hunt a specific animal or species. Hunt opportunity, then get in the prey's head. Get within pouncing distance. Tap the instinct. Watch cats, learn, and apply.

From: 9/10 Broke
Date: 23-Sep-22




Well if we are going to include animals I guess anything goes.

I’m going to have to say Jesus Christ. I bet he can out perform all creatures of the heavens and the earth.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 23-Sep-22




Chris Spikes kills some deer

From: shade mt
Date: 25-Sep-22




i usually don't comment much on topics like this simply because there are to many variables...to many different circumstances.

i have a relative, shot a buck practically every single year from a wooden treestand within sight of his home in SE PA....

an avid deer hunter?...yes....but truthfully it doesnt take much skill to climb into the same stand year after year and kill a deer.

nothing wrong with that....but simply filling your buck tag every year might not mean much.

From: LBshooter
Date: 25-Sep-22




I'll tell you who the true hunters are, they are the guys who hunt heavily pressured public lands. A hunter on this type of land has to be fluid enough to rethink where they hunt each time out. Deer get pushed around daily do to bird hunters, dog trainers etc and the Hunter has to figure out where to hunt each time out. I don't bother scouting the lands I hunt becuase o ft he pressure it receives throughout the year.i show up, grab my stuff and walk and scout at the same time, when I see fresh sign is where I'll sit for the day. Hunting a private piece of ground that has been groomed to flow the deer by your stand would be nice but I don't consider hunting in the truest sense of the word. My brother hunt son a ranch in Texas every year and the feeders are set up and deer are conditioned to come when the feeder goes off. I consider that shopping or glorified target shooting. I understand that's how it works in south Texas do to the brush but let's face it , hunting it's not.

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 25-Sep-22




I like the guys who work two or three jobs so they can afford some land to improve (on their dime) for wildlife. Those guys are committed.

From: 9/10 Broke
Date: 25-Sep-22




I envy the guys that go out and hunt and come home to a happy wife.

From: somedude
Date: 25-Sep-22




My Dad was pretty good…. and fine father too. >< del

From: Foggy Mountain
Date: 25-Sep-22




Well I’ve got strong opinions on this one they’ve got to be sporting. Got to give the animal a chance the way it was supposed to be. No bait, no cameras. Next it actually had to be a do it yourself hunt. I mean what is the point if someone else did everything but shoot it for you? Guys have these slams they did nothing for. What’s the accomplishment? They accomplished affording it but obviously can’t do it themselves. Real hunters? Another thing they must be successful in many or multiple areas. If someone has a food plot, which I’m not against, it’s managing habitat, but if they’re the only ones hunting there, they pattern those in disturbed animals It surely doesn’t exclude them from real hunting but the jury sorta out. If they have good woodsmanship and understand the animal and hunting them yes. One trick ponys no

From: 9/10 Broke
Date: 25-Sep-22




A very high kill ratio on hit animals should be a prerequisite too. A lot can happen between release and impact but a good bow hunter keeps shots close and/or can read an animal and knows their limits by the mannerisms of their prey.

From: David McLendon
Date: 25-Sep-22




Paul Schafer, Mike Mitten, Kevin Dill

From: limbwalker
Date: 25-Sep-22




A true hunter is anyone who hunts.

Who you admire is your business.

From: groundhunter50
Date: 26-Sep-22




Okay, here we go.... James S, that was a dumb statement... If you knew Lee and Tiffany, I can assure you, you would walk it back,,, These guys can hunt,,,, and by the way, no one gave them anything, they were self made,,,,, and by the grace of the Lord, that young lady is alive and well, after her medical challenges,,, Know the facts, before opening the mouth





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