At ETAR last week there was quite a crowd. Some courses were ridiculously backed up. Here's a few suggestions for shooters to help alleviate that.

If you are shooting with a group, spread out and shoot at the same time. Most targets have several windows to the target and can be shot at the same time. Our group was between 3 and 7 depending on course and time of day. We could keep pace or overtake groups of 2 by doing so.

We shot behind smaller groups who had to shoot from the stake one at a time and it really holds things up. Also shot behind a couple groups using binocs or rangefinders who would wait to check distance from the stake instead of a few paces away while on deck, or even checking the target after shooting.

Cmon guys, use your head, be courteous and move things along and make these shoots more enjoyable for everyone.

I’ve been behind some bigger groups at shoots, most that score require a foot to be touching the stake is probably why they were doing that. Another way to speed things up is to jump ahead of a large group then come back to shoot the previous target once they finish. While groups can be frustrating if you let them it’s also a way to meet up with other groups, possibly make friends and definitely see some pretty bows

Glassing from the stake after the shot is usually against the rules.

Most of this stuff is just plain lack of consideration for other shooters.

If jumping ahead of groups please make sure you jump way ahead, in front of the backup. We saw guys jumping ahead of groups that were not the backup problem which just makes the backup worse.

I only saw one group scoring at ETAR all week but almost all groups only shot one person at a time. Multiple people shooting really helps move things along.

Stick Hippie, Only shot behind one group that appeared to be keeping score, so no that wasn't the reason. We do skip ahead if it's not crowded ahead, but don't want to do that if it's backlogged up ahead as well.

Now I remember why I don't do big shoots anymore.

I thoroughly enjoyed ETAR. There were a few bottlenecks but nothing to get worked up over. I was in a group of 3 and we all shot at the same time. We like to create challenging shots. If it's clear behind us we will unload 6 or 7 arrows. No scores. Just having fun shooting and meeting people. Can't wait to next year.

That is the way big shoots are sometimes. Like going thru a big city and running into traffic. Or stores at Christmas. A pain yes. Like going to a small compound shoot, time consuming.

Me to.

Interesting problem. I used to go the the big shoot in Colorado. But would run into very big groups that took forever on each target. They generally did not encourage you to jump in, shoot, and leave them behind. So a range that might take 1 hour to shoot could drag on for 2-3 hours. But, these big groups were typically families, having a good time, looking for lost kid's arrows, etc. So, I couldn't really fault them for wanting to be together. My possible solution is the organization could state groups of more than 4 could only be on range such and such at such and such times, rotating the ranges so they could cover everything in two days, while smaller groups would know they probably should avoid those ranges at that time.

Most compounders around here will let us trad guys shoot through. Unless they know you're that bunch who spend more time behind the target than in front of it!

There are ways to speed things up . A few have already been mentioned but it’s up to the organizers of the shoot to remind people to follow simple courtesy. Sometimes “fun” shoots are the worst, people feel there’s no real rules to follow.

I gave up 3D shoots when the Compound machine operators decided they had to set up there tipods and IPhones to record every shot and then use binoc to see where they hit from 30 yards. PITA

They had a bad back-up Saturday after noon at Compton on two of the courses. For some dumb reason they shut one of the courses down to teach blood trailing. Like they couldn't have found a piece of woods that wasn't on the range to do that.

Folks that use binoculars and range finders make me laugh. Shows their inability to know their target distance. Wife and I was at a shoot when two guys were shooting with mechanical type bows. One used binoculars and had the other stand so the sun didn't block his vision when he shot. That was cute.

I don’t have a problem with guys shooting from the stakes and scoring. After all, it’s basically a competition even if your just shooting with friends for fun. What I feel taking the most time is when 1-2 guys in a group of 4-5 spend more time looking for lost arrows than it does for the group to shoot.

If you think that was bad try shooting behind IBO shooters that carry chairs with them.

Why be in such a hurry. It isn't work. Go around or smell the roses.

I don’t mind people looking for lost arrows. Children and new shooters deserve a little more patience. In fact, we usually help them look for the arrows. I don’t mind conversations while waiting for your turn at the stake. I don’t mind large groups who offer to you to shoot through.

I do mind those who must have conversations while at the stake and should be shooting. I do mind conversations among members of a group between shots when their members should be shooting.

The rules posted for ETAR do state that shooters must have a foot touching the stake. Though not a competition, it was in their flyer. Also, you can enjoy traditional archery intrinsically and thereby just enjoy shooting. Our deep human fears of wanting to be better than a least someone causing us to turn everything into a competition is what ruins events like ETAR. Ever notice that competitions are always full of the young who are afraid they can’t and the unfulfilled older people who are afraid they can’t anymore! Let’s keep the competition friendly and the events too. Maybe act like mature well fulfilled adults.

Just be courteous out there. We don’t need more rules. We just need adults to quit crying and acting like toddlers thinking every moment is about them. Shoot at the stake and talk later

Muddyboots. That is a great suggestion! Also, everyone should go to an ibo compound shoot some time. Four guys take about 10 minutes to shoot each target. Each guy steps up to the stake with their binos and looks at the target for awhile, then they setup for the shot and finally shoot. Then each guy follows that process. Then when they pull their arrows they stand in front of the target and talk about their shots. There is supposed to be a time limit but there is no-one to enforce that and these guys are used to spending four hours shooting 30 targets.

Witherstick X2.

Sorry guys, but isn't the whole purpose of being there to shoot arrows. I know patience is a virtue, but it doesn't trump courtesy and common sense. Just shoot the critter and get on with it.

I've never been to a big shoot like ETAR and probably never will. I don't like big crowds and I shoot to enjoy myself. I doubt I'd like waiting around to shoot.

I have fun at some local shoots with my good friend Frank (Nemophilist) and a few others. The bigger a gathering gets the a**hole factor increases exponentially in my experience. I have to deal with that enough at work so I'd like to avoid it during my recreation time. YMMV.

One of the things I like about traditional archery shoots is the relaxed nature of the shoot and as others mentioned meeting new people. Maybe it's different in pa

I have also seen way more issues at "fun" shoots, than actual scored events with rules to follow. And those of you who don't shoot from the "stakes", just don't go. The stakes are there for safety as much as anything. You shoot from the stake, the event planers know where your arrow is headed, and no one should be able to be hurt.

The stakes and targets should be NFAA certified. That's how you keep from shooting other people at the range. I'm not sure you can get the liability insurance without it?

Very fun shoot coming up in San Francisco this weekend A couple years ago they started limiting it to 500 to keep the backups from happening. Also a lot of shoots require the archer be touching or within reach of the stake limiting the amount of people who can shoot at once. On not so formal shoots we line up and let them rip. Bottom line don’t let it reck you day have fun.

Waiting to shoot bothers me less at ETAR than any other shoot I've been to.

Knowing that here will likely be thousands of people there, many camping families, lots of young/new shooters on the courses, we figure back-ups are going to occur. Starting a course at 8, or a harder walking course later in the day has work well.

Most groups let us through if they know they are the reason for the back- up. Sometimes there is no place to go but up, (like golf ). We have had good conversations while we were waiting, most groups handle it well.

ETAR is more of an event to us than just another place to shoot foam. There are many other places we can do that. To me, the vendors and general atmosphere create a more relaxing vibe. Can't wait until next year.

I think the new site is just fine. use the shuttles if needed.

Oh, I hear ya Craig. The worst ones I've been to by far are the Rhinehart 100's. May as well drag a hammock with ya. Just quit them completely.

We always offer to those coming from behind justus if they want to shoot through. Depending on the coarse and the amount of shooters on it, if they choose to shoot through they may be able to take off. Saturday on the Big Woods coarse if we let them shoot through, they ran into the group ahead of us, that we would wait on. Some people just jumped multiple targets to get head. ETAR is just a fun shoot no score kept, unless some are doing individual competitions within their group. DANNY

I hate people that are behind a group when everyone is waiting in front and they expect to go in front of the group ahead of them. Now the group ahead of them is waiting longer. I’m at the point I don’t shoot in big groups anymore. Usually end up just looking for arrows and half the time no one knows where their arrow went and refuse to leave it. Lol.

I go to Comptons and Etar but never shoot the courses anymore. Groups of 7 to 10, many shooting multiple shots, and the time they spend scratching the dirt behind the targets. A well run mixed shoot goes a lot faster.

If you don't like waiting, go to S.A.W.M.I.L., great for people who like to shoot, very few

venders, make great friends shoot the courses and go back and shoot them again with

different folks.

At ETAR my wife and I only shoot the lodge targets. You can shoot a hundred arrows in the time it would take to shoot just a few targets on a busy course.

The last time we tried a course there were five groups waiting for target #1. 45 minutes later we got to shoot one arrow. We walked off.

As for shooting from 'not at the stake', it depends on how the course is laid out and how much room there is between lanes.

It's easier to build in safety when you can put plenty of distance between shots, so even if an arrow glances, it won't go near the next target - or the space behind it. You want to think of the guy who may be behind the *next* target looking for his arrow.

I've seen courses set on 30 acres and 100+ acres, and prefer the latter, just because. But a club has to make do with what they have.

We really had but minimum delays at ETAR, a few at STAR. With just a group of 2 we were either asked to join up with a another small group or we were optioned to go ahead. We actually made friends! Lol

Guys imo and I’ve shot 3D since the 80s but everyone, each situation is different. All situations, imo no one should be shooting in groups bigger than 4. Honestly 2-3 is better. Now the way the op said it, sounds quick but perhaps not the safest w no one watching for anything unsafe developing. I’ll be honest I’d just hate to be part of some group shooting thing. I watch guys wing shoot that way and it seems so foreign and unlike anything I’d personally do. Not knocking the op method but whenever I approached a crowd, a slow group, especially at bigger shoots, I just waited for them to shoot, get their arrows and I skipped the target and went onto next. The ones looking forever trying to find missed artows can slow things too but what’s actually the rush or the importance of shooting that one particular target? Just pass any jam ups. You’re not scoring anyhow and there’s plenty of targets.

Now I didn’t actually make it this year after all but last year I went to visit a bud on Sat mid day. I didn’t see but 1-2 people even some of the courses over a long time talking to him. If early morning is a rush, shoot later.

Here’s another one I’d used. Whittingham summer shoot had 60 targets. They started at 7. I’d be first in, hard to beat me anywhere, believe me but I’d often be done with one course, shoot the second with almost no one near me. Than go eat breakfast, walk around, shoot some novelty stuff than hit the third range. Often by the time it was done the ranges were emptied and I’d shoot an original one again.

Yes we should be courteous. We’ve also gotta be understanding. Years back I was doing a job overlooking a golf course. This couple was having a great time. The woman I don’t think too good, I’m not a golfer, but this old man kept driving like a maniac up to them telling them to hurry up. We don’t wanna be like that. If I was that woman’s bf that moron old or not wouldn’t have kept approaching me. Let’s me better than that. Some fella could be with a couple young kids. He ain’t group shooting and prob gonna look for arrows some. He shouldn’t feel unwelcome we’ve all been there.

Just considerations fellas

As an after thought.... We did run into a group of 2 fellers that were shooting multiple arrows at each target, and doing so while we waited at the stake, which it was posted only 1 shot per. Once they chased their arrows we just moved along ahead of them. Simple fix

I actually saw a fist fight break out between two guys at a 3d shoot in MN years ago. All because some guy had his kids there, was constantly blocking the course while looking for arrows, and wouldn't let anyone shoot through.

It's just a walk in the woods, so relax and try to have fun and stay safe.

Let’s face it guys. In most everything we do now a days, etiquette and common courtesy has gone out the door.

In golf, as in 3-d, if you have an open hole or target in front of you you should let people through. It's common courtesy and sense.

The biggest problem I saw at ETAR, (other than flat, uninteresting, open field shots with nothing behind them but ferns and weeds) was where the two mountain courses converged and shared the same last 15 or so targets. I’m just guessing as I really didn’t count them. That problem is the fault of the ones who laid out the courses and should be an easy fix to separate them.

If shooting 2 feet away from a stake makes it unsafe I want no part of that course because it is by no means a safe course. Arrows bounce of targets, glance off branches and if things are that tight the course is not safe.

Just remember the same people who shoot 3D are the same ones who drive cars.

Just remember the same people who shoot 3D are the same ones who drive cars.

The one shoot that I have been to that flows perfectly is the Texas Longbow Championship. Groups of five or less, each group starts at a different target and the groups start at the same time with a horn being blasted.

Shootalot, around here that's called a " shotgun start ".

At a shoot the size of ETAR, you have to expect some delays, but it really wasn’t that bad this year considering the number of shooters.

And you can do your own part to avoid the crowds. I like to shoot the mountain course in the heat of the afternoon because most others want to do that hike early in the morning. Friday afternoon my group of 5 (2 adults and 3 kids) breezed right through at our own pace, never held up and never holding others up while looking for lost arrows.

I wonder what Emily Post would say?

I wonder what Emily Post would say?

I didn't start this thread to complain about ETAR. I thoroughly enjoyed the shoot, as always. As usual it got off the rails by people assuming I never expected a crowd, or that we were unsafe by all shooting at the same time, or we don't socialize with other shooters while waiting.

I was simply pointing out a common sense way to move things along. When we shot a station with multiple targets like the pigpen we would line up and shoot whichever target or targets were visible and if need be jockey around a bit to shoot the other ones. Shooting like this would take 5 of us maybe 2 minutes to finish, while a group of 5 shooting one at a time might easily take 10 minutes.

Docpain x 2

Common sense is not so common these days.

Where I live there are no trad only shoots. It typically takes 5 hrs to shoot 25 targets. Lately, since most in the trad division (one division for longbows, selfbows, recurves) have started using Olympic or ILF bows with mechanical rests, stabilizers, and sometimes sights, some of them take as long as compound guys. They’re all good people, they are just doing a different sport. There’s nothing to be done. Enjoy the slow day, stay home, or do as I do and drive 1200 miles RT ever year to a longbow shoot.

John, is that course laid out as a single loop of 25 targets?

Yes

OK. A lot of courses around here are two loops of 15 targets - 30 is normal around here. So if you see a group of 'serious' wheelbow shooters * head out on side 1 you can just head for side 2.

But as I said, they'll usually offer to let you shoot through.

* Someone mentioned IBO shooters with their little chairs, but those guys are generally best at letting folks by. ;-)

I have shot a lot of tournaments; most of the really big groups are inexperienced folk who don't realize how they are slowing things down. I have asked them to split into two groups of five instead of a group of ten, which they did happily when it was brough to their attention.

My pet peeve is people who spend way too much time looking for arrows. We had a grumpy old guy who shot the ASTB tournaments who complained loudly about every target placement as being unfair and would spend up to a half hour looking for a lost arrow.

When enough of the backed-up people would get vocal about his lost arrow searching he would quit looking and move on begrudgingly.

The lost arrow thing is a BIG issue at times. I've seen some courses that allowed you to come back after the shooting was over to search for arrows. For some that works.

Sometimes the group in front of you gets blamed for being slow but they may have been held up by the group in front of them also . If your group is faster than the group in front of you,don't crowd them . Don't go up and stand behind them like you wish they would hurry. Stay back and chill out and let them shoot . If it is a large group or just super slow then just go around them.

Everyone is there there to have fun. Some like to take their time and enjoy every shot and some enjoy rushing so they can shoot the next range . If you get angry while out shooting then you and others around you are not having fun .

M.P. makes a good point for a variety of reasons. NO ONE goes to a 3d shoot to get angry and upset. If they can't come away happy they won't be coming back.

Arrows are like golf balls to me. If it's still lost after a quick (3 minute) search I move on. No biggie, it's my fault, I missed, move on.

Some never want to give up their search. If it upsets you that bad to lose an arrow then you shouldn't have shot into the weeds. Pretty simple concept.

Endless searching burns me to the core!

I saw a guy at the MI Longbow Shoot looking for his lost arrow with a metal detector last year.

I shoot in a big group...wife, kids, grandkids, sister, brother in law, son in law, and sometimes another friend and his wife at ETAR. I encourage people to pass and dont take too long to look for arrows. We are there for the enjoyment of sharing an experience together, encouraging archery in a younger generation, and have no desire to break into groups. I do feel bad sometimes like we might be holding things up, but this shoot is for fun, and I think letting people pass takes care of it.

Lost 3 arrows today on the first loop of 15. In my defense the course was set extra-tough. ;-)

Faced the second loop down to three arrows and managed to keep them...

The trad shoot in MN has always had a great system. Everybody starts at the same spot, but they have a "director" there that divides "groups" into 4's and directs them into three different loops to keep things moving. Folks that don't want to split up, don't shoot.

Yeah Shawn, had an arrow hit me in the foot at a shoot a few years back. Bad layout with one loop having shots towards other loop. Compound guy who was over-bowed did one of those sky draws and touched it off. It arched above the trees and came down, bouncing into my foot. No damage, but could have been.

If I'm not mistaken the guy with the metal detector is doing it as a service. Just a guy trying to be helpful. I don't recall him getting in the way.

I shot a course with Hvac Tech this morning. It was very much a compound course with some long uphill shots. Nothing but a wall of brush and tall weeds for a backstop. We skipped those then doubled up on the more trad friendly targets.

Otherwise we would have certainly lost arrows and held things up. It didn't bother us in the least.

So woman and children must shoot from the stakes or be banned?

So woman, children and new shooters must shoot from the stakes or be banned?

If you're shooting in line with the stakes you should be okay.

I personally don't understand why some clubs don't have multiple stakes/yardages. Around here 4 stakes is typical - Cubs, Juniors/Traditional, Hunter and Open class compounds. I set mine to average around 10, 20, 30 and 40 yards respectively. And I tell shooters, if it's too easy, move back, too hard, move forward.

Some clubs go easier, some harder. (Average for Trad stakes today was probably 26 or a bit more.)

At least be in line with the stakes

I agree with Danny Pyle. At our club when we put on a 3D shoot, if you are shooting for a Trophy you have to shoot from the stake. If you are there as a rookie shooter or for fun and don't feel comfortable with the distance that the stake is set at with your shooting skills, you can shoot between stakes or move up to where you do. BUT you have to shoot in line with the stakes that are set. We encourage shooters, not discourage them to have fun. DANNY

I like to talk to the archers behind me or in front of me so I don't care how large the crowds are. I only go to trad only shoots so there is that

People using binocs could look at the target before they get to the stake. Whats another yard ??? Its the compound mentallity.

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