Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Straight versus Helical

Messages posted to thread:
Uncle Lijiah 24-Jul-22
Uncle Lijiah 24-Jul-22
Corax_latrans 24-Jul-22
Nemophilist 24-Jul-22
Nemophilist 24-Jul-22
Nemophilist 24-Jul-22
Nemophilist 24-Jul-22
2 bears 24-Jul-22
Pa Steve 24-Jul-22
Dan In MI 24-Jul-22
George D. Stout 24-Jul-22
Boker 24-Jul-22
Catskills 24-Jul-22
B.T. 24-Jul-22
Jim Davis 24-Jul-22
Al 24-Jul-22
B.T. 24-Jul-22
George D. Stout 24-Jul-22
goldentrout_one 24-Jul-22
Viper 24-Jul-22
B.T. 24-Jul-22
Jim 24-Jul-22
babysaph 24-Jul-22
Corax_latrans 24-Jul-22
lefty4 25-Jul-22
Supernaut 25-Jul-22
Viper 25-Jul-22
Viper 25-Jul-22
Nemophilist 25-Jul-22
Uncle Lijiah 25-Jul-22
Nemophilist 25-Jul-22
Nemophilist 25-Jul-22
grizz 25-Jul-22
lefty4 25-Jul-22
Geezer 25-Jul-22
Corax_latrans 25-Jul-22
Altitude Sickness 26-Jul-22
From: Uncle Lijiah
Date: 24-Jul-22




I have a question for you folks who can shoot really well. Let’s say 1/2 of your arrows are fletched helical & 1/2 are fletched straight. You randomly pull arrows from your quiver and shoot for a group at a good distance, say 30 yards. Will the two fletching styles group any differently? I can’t shoot well enough to try this experiment.

From: Uncle Lijiah
Date: 24-Jul-22




I have a question for you folks who can shoot really well. Let’s say 1/2 of your arrows are fletched helical & 1/2 are fletched straight. You randomly pull arrows from your quiver and shoot for a group at a good distance, say 30 yards. Will the two fletching styles group any differently? I can’t shoot well enough to try this experiment.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 24-Jul-22




A while back, someone posted a link to an archery magazine article from the ‘50s in which a couple of gentlemen with a shooting machine and plenty of time on their hands Undertook to Ascertain the difference between the two. If memory serves, they were launching those arrows at some high angle and they were coming down I’m going to say 120 yards out. Again, if memory serves – and that’s never a particularly good bet with me these days – the difference in where the groups came down was a couple of feet. What I CAN say with some certainty is that I was surprised at how little difference it made.

So I would say that if you DO think you are good enough to shoot the difference, you should stop wasting your time here and should instead put your energy into lining up sponsors for your next Olympic bid.

From: Nemophilist
Date: 24-Jul-22

Nemophilist's embedded Photo



From: Nemophilist
Date: 24-Jul-22

Nemophilist's embedded Photo



From: Nemophilist
Date: 24-Jul-22

Nemophilist's embedded Photo



From: Nemophilist
Date: 24-Jul-22

Nemophilist's embedded Photo



From: 2 bears
Date: 24-Jul-22




A slight off set with the straight fletch does exactly the same thing as the helix.

In the article the argument was between straight fletch & helical. For the test the arrows had a slight offset. Proof positive the very last paragraph "straight clamp ANGLE fletch" It is stated in the article also if you read the whole thing. While Jim knew the difference in where his arrows hit, he was wrong about the reason. Helical do not have less drag. Jennings knew how to settle it. With the very slightest increase in the angle of the straight clamp he could have made them land in the same group. He came amazingly close as it was. Jennings new archery & made some very efficient bows. >>>-----> Ken

From: Pa Steve
Date: 24-Jul-22




Good information Nemo. We did an unscientific test one day and helical was noisier to our ears but that isn't the OPs question. Just thought I'd mention it.

From: Dan In MI
Date: 24-Jul-22




Good article,but I'm going to question the testing.

1) You are not going to get much helix on a 1616.

2) You should define how much helix you are using. It can vary a lot.

From: George D. Stout
Date: 24-Jul-22




Fact is, you won't see much difference in impact at deer hunting ranges. Been there and done that in the same quiver. By the way, straight fletching still spins an arrow rather well, due of course to the feathers having a smooth side and a friction side. No way that they won't spin. Maybe at about 40 yards you may see one carrying up higher, but still then, not enough to worry about. Viper has shown photos of 60 yard groups with all different size fletches and most were still in the gold.

From: Boker
Date: 24-Jul-22




I am not particularly a good shot so i will not comment with my own personal results except ti say Traditional bowhunting magazine had a article a few years back labeled something like

“MAKING THE CASE FOR STRAIGHT FLETCHING”

Interesting read.

From: Catskills
Date: 24-Jul-22




Thanks Nemo for article

From: B.T.
Date: 24-Jul-22




Straight or "Offset" I think you mean Offset vs. Helical?

From: Jim Davis
Date: 24-Jul-22




I fletch all my arrows as straight as I can, but, just for the record, once a helically fletched arrow leaves the string and starts spinning, the fletching meets the air flow with only perhaps a tiny bit more frontal area.

If the arrow did not spin, the difference in frontal area would make a huge difference in distance.

From: Al
Date: 24-Jul-22




All feathers are helical. So fletching straight still gives a helical.

From: B.T.
Date: 24-Jul-22




I know, but aren't "straight jigs" 2° offset?

From: George D. Stout
Date: 24-Jul-22




How straight they are is up to how you adjust them. You can make them dead straight as long as the clamp is straight, offset is up to the user.

From: goldentrout_one
Date: 24-Jul-22




For what it's worth, I just built some carbon arrows for a compound, as an experiment I put straight vanes on six (very slight almost imperceptible offset) and vanes with an agressive helical on the other six. The vanes were 2.9" long. Again, this was an experiment to assess the impact to arrow flight, point of impact, etc. As far as I cculd tell, the point of impact of the helical vanes and the almost-straight vanes was identical, even out to 80 yards. HOWEVER, the helical vane arrows consistently grouped smaller than the almost-straight vanes. The difference in group size wasn't huge, but you could definitely tell. I suspect the helical, having more vane facing the air, tended to straighten the arrow out faster and more effectively, thus the helical vane was better at hiding small imperfections in form and/or small imperfections in arrow tuning. Just a theory though....

From: Viper
Date: 24-Jul-22

Viper's embedded Photo



UL -

60 yards, with a Vo of 190 fps. Yes, there will be more of a difference with a slower bow.

Viper out.

From: B.T.
Date: 24-Jul-22




Depends on the jig then, I've only used the Jo-Jan.

From: Jim Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 24-Jul-22




While I have only shot 50 yards and under using the same shafts fletched with 3x5” helical and some with 3x5” straight fletch they all grouped the same and I couldn’t tell any difference.

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 24-Jul-22




Come on Viper. How we know that is your pic? At least stand by it. LOL

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 24-Jul-22




“ I fletch all my arrows as straight as I can, but, just for the record, once a helically fletched arrow leaves the string and starts spinning, the fletching meets the air flow with only perhaps a tiny bit more frontal area.

If the arrow did not spin, the difference in frontal area would make a huge difference in distance.”

THANK YOU, Jim! You have just explained something (very neatly) of which I had a grasp intuitively, but I had been entirely unsuccessful in explaining it to my own satisfaction. It just doesn’t make any sense!

Until the point at which it suddenly becomes brutally obvious. It’s what sailors call Apparent Wind.

“Yes, there will be more of a difference with a slower bow.”

OK, so what blindingly obvious item am I overlooking in this one? Seems to me that because drag increases exponentially with velocity, the slower arrows should be subject to less drag, so any difference (which should probably scale with velocity as a percentage) should actually come down as an absolute number.

No difference makes sense to me. Less of a difference kind of makes sense to me as well. More of a difference just doesn’t compute… But I guess I’m not going to rule out an error in the software…

From: lefty4
Date: 25-Jul-22




Viper, what are the differences in the arrows you show in the picture?

It looks like there are both vanes and feathers.

And it looks like the feathers are longer and higher than the vanes.

Is there also a difference in the mounting of the fletchings?

From: Supernaut
Date: 25-Jul-22




Nice article Nemo, thanks for posting it.

From: Viper
Date: 25-Jul-22




lefty -

The arrows are identical 1914 aluminum X7s, except for the fletching.

Two have 3 5" parabolic left wing feathers with a fair amount of helical, and two have 3 1.75" plastic vanes with only a slight left offset (no helical). I choose those fletchings, as they they are identical in weight, at about 10 grains total.

That photo was representative of a number of flights. Yes, the vanes impacted slightly higher, but not that much.

Viper out.

From: Viper
Date: 25-Jul-22

Viper's embedded Photo



lefty -

At 20 yards, the difference is basically nonexistent.

Viper out.

From: Nemophilist
Date: 25-Jul-22

Nemophilist's embedded Photo



From: Uncle Lijiah
Date: 25-Jul-22




Thanks, guys!

From: Nemophilist
Date: 25-Jul-22

Nemophilist's embedded Photo



Another good read:

Fred Bear on Arrows

Your next heading here is “arrows and broadheads.” I draw 28 inches, and my arrows are 29 inches with either the blunt field point or the broadhead attached to it, so in the case of the broadhead, I have an inch to the back of the head at my full draw length.

I am not concerned about whether my feathers are left- or right- handed, but I do like a helical fletch and I like a very large feather. I’ve never shot other than three-fletch arrows. I’m sure four-fletch has advantages. I think that they can be cut lower and stand up under wet weather probably better than three-fletch, although I’ve never used them. My fletching is 5 inches long and begins 1 1/4 inches from the very end of the nock. They are spirally fletched so that the shaft revolves in flight. Never use straight fletching on hunting arrows.

I have no particular color preference on fletching, except that I’m often making a film in which it is very important in having the camera follow the flight of the arrow. For this reason I have used rather bright-colored feathers—white and yellows, maybe with a black cock feather for a contrast, and, for some reason, my arrows are never camouflaged. The last three years I’ve been using Converta-Point Magnum® arrows, of course, and they are aluminum. This is a handicap in the woods, there’s no question about it, but it’s one of the things you have to put up with when you are in the filming business. (Author’s note: These were the “new” arrows we had introduced in our 1968 Bear Archery catalog. A special insert was designed for use with broadheads, and there were blunt, field and target points as a part of this new system, so that the archer could use the same arrow shaft and simply interchange the points for practice, hunting or field use. The shafts were especially made for us by Easton. Fred came up with this system and filed for the patent on Nov. 2, 1966, and the patent #3,401,938 was granted on Sept. 17, 1968.)

I do not use any preparation on the feathers to keep them dry. I use a plastic bag pulled over the arrows when they are in the bow quiver and held in place with a rubber band. This, of course, sometimes is a handicap, also, because if you are surprised by game it’s pretty difficult to pull this bag off without making a little rattling sound, but I’ve never found a waterproof fletching material that stood up under very much rain. (Author’s note: This was written before we introduced our Weathers®, all- weather plastic fletching material, but Fred continued to use real feathers even after we had done so.) Naturally, I don’t fletch my own arrows, and I use the Razorhead® (the Bear Razorhead, if you’ll permit me), and I always use the insert even in shooting an elephant … and there’s a reason for this. The insert opens up an “X” hole and gives better penetration because it relieves pinching on the shaft and leaves a better blood trail. I use a Razorhead® with the insert for all kinds of game. Makes no difference the weight of the bow or the size of the game.

As I said before, I like an arrow that is nine times my bow weight in grains. Penetration is a matter of kinetic energy, and it is a well-known fact that a heavy object moving at the same speed is much harder to stop than a lighter one. There’s another factor in the case of an arrow. A given bow has a certain, I’ll call it “quickness,” of return to the string from a full-draw position. A heavy bow can handle a heavier arrow with a great deal more striking energy.

From: Nemophilist
Date: 25-Jul-22

Nemophilist's embedded Photo



Hunting Arrows by Fred Bear

The article by Tom Imler in the December issue of Ye Sylvan Archer is very timely. Modern archery hunting is "on trial" and care should be taken by all those who enjoy this sport to make sure that their equipment is adequate for the game hunted.

Too few archers realize the importance of using a rather heavy arrow for hunting. The growing popularity of field shooting has created a demand for light weight, fast arrows and it is assumed by many archers that the same qualifications are proper for hunting. It is also a more or less common belief that a light arrow traveling fast will have as great killing power as a heavier shaft going at slower speed when both are shot from the same how.

In support then, of Tom Imler's arguments for heavy tackle I would like to submit a chapter dealing with arrows from the manuscript of a book being prepared on Bow Hunting.

"F. L. English conducted a series of tests to determine the striking power of various weights of arrows when shot from a bow having a draw weight of 50 pounds. This being classed as a light weight hunting bow and in as much as only one bow was used it was thought desireable to conduct similar tests using not only arrows of various weights, but bows of varying weights as well.

"Accordingly, a 'bob' was constructed by nailing together 4 pieces of wood resulting in a box 9 inches square and 15 inches long, open at both ends. This was filled with pieces of corrugated paper cut into squares which were kept in place by narrow slats nailed across the top and bottom of the ends leaving a sufficient amount of corrugated paper exposed to receive the arrows.

"This bob was suspended, pendulum fashion, from 4 wires running to the ceiling (about 10 feet). A light weight wire 'whisker' with a small piece of pencil lead attached was hinged to the back end so that it had a vertical travel only. The pencil end rested on a piece of graph paper just slightly below and back of the bob.

"Six arrows were made weighing 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, and 800 grains each. All shooting was done from a machine so that the draw and loose would be exactly the same for each shot,

"Eight bows, varying in weight from 45 to 68 pounds were used.

"The six arrows were shot from each bow and the performance of each recorded. The results were then grouped for each arrow weight, added together and divided by 8 to give averages which revealed the following.

"The 400 grain arrow struck 20 per cent harder than the 300 grain, the 500 45 per cent, the 600 66 per cent, the 700 82 per cent the 800 100 per cent.

"In order that the reader may more completely comprehend the startling results revealed by these experiments, figure 1 shows a chart indicating the findings for each different combination.

"A study of this will show the striking force of a 500 grain arrow shot from a 61 pound bow to be less than l per cent greater than a 600 grain arrow shot from a 45 pound bow. Also that a 68 pound bow with 500 grain arrow strikes less than 3 per cent harder than a 52 pound bow with a 600 grain arrow.

"The reason for this difference, of course, is because the light arrow does not absorb nearly as much of the energy of the bow as does the heavy one.

"To the casual observer it may seem that the recommendations as to bow weights in the chapter dealing with bows should not have been made, as arrow weight has a greater bearing on killing power. This would be true perhaps, if it were not necessary, from an accuracy standpoint, to establish a definite relationship between bow weight and arrow weight. A good rule to follow in this respect is to select arrows that are not heavier in grains than your bow weight with a cipher added to it, and not lighter than 10 per cent less. As an example, in choosing hunting arrows for a 60 puund bow you simply add a cipher to the 60 which allows a maximum arrow weight of 600 grains and a minimum of 540 grains.

"Arrows that are heavier than this ratio will most likely have too high a trajectory and for this reason will be difficult to shoot accurately cxcept at close range. If much lighter than the above recommendations they may lack sufficient killing power for large game and, under hunting conditions, be less accurate.

"Lightweight arrows are more inaccurate under hunting conditions because they are not as stable as the heavier shafts. Hunting shots differ from practice or field shooting. In the former it is the first shot that counts most because, in many instances, an opportunity for a second shot does not occur.

"Upon that first shot therefore hinges your success or failure and it is here that the heavier shaft will aid your accuracy. Being less sensitive to correct loose and form which, you may rest assured will not be at its best, your chances of scoring a hit are much better and you are more certain to get your trophy.

"It might be well to mention again, as in the chapter under bows, that a deer can be killed with most any combination if no heavy bones are struck but what is needed is some thing that will crash through where the going is tough.

"Some archers will take exception to these recommended arrow weights, arguing that the heavier shafts, because or their faster drop will greatly affect the accuracy. It is the opinion of the writer, backed by many of the most successful archer hunters that, in-as-much as very little game is killed with a bow beyond 40 yards, the more stable shooting qualities of heavier shafts will more than compensate for any loss of accuracy due to a greater drop. And you will recover many trophies that might otherwise escape wounded,

"It is not necessary to construct a hob to arrive at this conclusion. Watch how a heavy bow rocks a target or try to shoot light weight blunts through a board.

"The heavier arrows with their additional penetrating power are more likely to pass entirely through large and heavy game animals. Experience has proven that deer will go further if they carry the arrow with them than they will if it clears the body. The logical reason for this is that the arrow frightens them. The sharp blade is felt at each movement and, with the brightly colored shaft and feathers protruding from their body, it might easily be imagined that some strange creature were clinging to their body and clawing at their 'innards'. In this frantic condition they will run until the very last heartbeat and you may not locate your game unless tracking conditions are good.

"On the other hand, the swift almost silent passage of an arrow thru the body will, in most cases, have the same effect as a pain and sick feeling in the stomach would to you or me. A sensible reaction would be to lie down at the first convenient place you could find. Animals will do this too and if not pursued at once will he found within a short distance from where they were hit.

"It is true that a protruding arrow will cause additional cutting when the rear end comes in contact with trees and bushes. This will hasten death. However, it may, also lengthen the distance to your trophy as much as five times."

The majority of archers in this area do use heavy equipment although our interpretation of the word as applied to hunting equipment means bows 65 to 70 pounds.

I go along with Tom all the way with the exception of his statement that "most normal men can use a 70 to 80 pound how with ease."

If this figure had been 60 to 70 pounds it would, in my opinion, be nearly right.

Most men do not have the bone structure to support muscular development necessary to shoot bows of more than this weight with ease. While many could work into the 80 pound class and some to the 90 or 100, few have the time to devote to this task.

There is absolutely no question but that the really heavy bows do pack a tremendous wallop; and bows, unlikc guns, can never be too heavy for the archer.

So, in establishing minimum bow weights for game no larger than deer, let us not place them so high as to discourage the archer hunter who does not have quite so much hair on his chest, or those who do not have enough time to devote to this muscular build-up.

It is entirely another question if one plans to tangle with the big bears, moose, large boar and such game, but the largest game that the majority of archers will ever have occasion to shoot at are deer and, very occasionally, black bear.

Don't get me wrong, there is definitely no substitute for heavy bows and heavy arrows. A light weight arrow traveling faster will not bring the desired results. But let us not insist that moose tackle be used for deer and that nothing less will suffice.

From: grizz
Date: 25-Jul-22




Good read Nemo. I never get tired of the old articles bye real experts.

From: lefty4
Date: 25-Jul-22




Thanks for the added info Tony!

From: Geezer
Date: 25-Jul-22




I don't know. I do know that the last paragraph of the response by Corax_whatshisname was rather unpleasant. Don't see the need or reason.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 25-Jul-22




Relax, Geezer! I’m not busting anybody’s chops but my own.

As a rule, if something doesn’t seem quite right to me, I question my own thinking first.

From: Altitude Sickness
Date: 26-Jul-22




That is a great read Nemo. I like how they made the target move at impact or absorb energy as an animal would give a little. Many hunters say they never shoot animals past 20-30 yards, then are concerned about the trajectory of a heavy hunting arrow.





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