Since I have plenty of time on my hands while I recover from my surgery. I decided to watch the Complete Bear Archery Collection again. After watching the videos it occurred to me that Fred nor anyone he hunted with use any string silencer. I did saw some bows with brush buttons. When did silencers become popular? I remember first using them in the late 60’s or early 70’s

I don't recall ever seeing a picture of Fred Bear with string silencers on his bow, only brush buttons. But he did sell them because they are in his catalogs.

Nope. I don't ever recall seeing pictures of Ben Pearson or anyone from that era with string silencers.

Besides good old “brush buttons “ I don’t recall string silencers until the first compound bows. I know catwiskers were around, that was one of Rancho Safaris first products. There was another silencer called the National string silencers that resembles an arrow head made from rubber. I have in orginal package a set of those three legged ones made by same company that made the tan brush buttons. But to be honest the old guys I knew back in IL didn’t use any.

I used silencers on my Groves recurve and that was 71.

Frank, what was your surgery? JF

In the 1960's we used rubber bands tied on the strings for silencers, brush buttons were the norm too.

They probably tuned their bows properly, paying attention to BH and nock position. Did not set it and forget it as seems common with the recommended BH questions on several forums…they did not have the internet so figured it out on their own and fine tuned.

I don’t think they used “heavy” arrows…with what was available when I started in 1989 9-10 gpp was the norm where a tuned setup settled in at.

I used 5” fletch ( never do that now!) 125-145 grain heads and 2016 arrows in 50-55 bows, along with cat whiskers.

Jack Howard never used them and he shot a lot of game with his recurves

I know I used those tri rubber ones on my recurve before ‘74 when I went to the compound.

I started 20 years before’89 and most everybody used heavy arrows. Most of us used fiberglass which came in heavier than most all other materials. Surprisingly, we actually tuned and all that stuff. I know that’s not what the Neo-Trad crowd accepts but then a lot of us were actually there. Back then I used brush buttons myself. We figured they served two purposes, quieted the bow and help keep brush from hanging up under the string. Those Kwikee Kwivers also help quiet the bow. After four or five years I did start using cat whiskers along with everything else.

Jack Howard made most of his shots at distances where the quarry would never hear the noise of the bow!

Also, my Gamemaster is one of the quietest bows I own…

"Back then I used brush buttons myself. We figured they served two purposes, quieted the bow and help keep brush from hanging up under the string." Exactly grizz. A lot of recurve shooters used brush buttons. No need for silencers and most longbows tuned properly are quiet anyway.

I started archery and bowhunting small game on the family farm in 1969. Then in 1971 I was old enough to get my first hunting license to be able to bow hunt deer. I always used brush buttons and sometimes I used the rubber Kwikee Silencers back then. Back then I also shot cedar arrows and stayed in the 9gpp to 10gpp range. I still own the first two bows my Dad bought me, a 1969 Bear Green Fox and a 1974 Bear Grizzly. Both shoot quiet and have killed deer for me in the past. They hang on the wall in my game room above my buck mounts now.

N -

1. Again, you're forgetting that all of Freddy's pictures were staged. Yeah, it's still the marketing thing.

2. Brush buttons WERE silencers.

3. Various types have been around for ever.

4. There was a time when people understood that "silencers" were a last resort and not a fashion statement. "Tuning" by whatever means, usually had the greatest effect on bow sound, but some bows were just noisy by nature and needed a little help. Almost anything on the string did that.

Viper out.

X2 with Fred Bauder.

X3

X4

Diaper, full of it and himself.

X5

I have a 1960 Bear catalog that shows Kwikee silencers 90 cents a pair. Brush buttons 60 cents a pair. Just for a time line.

X6

Trash mouth.

I agree. Calling him Freddy. Unreal. Fred Shi$$ bigger turds than Viper.

Yessir ^^^^^^^^

Guysw -

I have nothing against "ol Freddy", I just see him for, and can respect what he was: a business man, and yes, a very good one. Making him out to be a great archer and bow hunter and trying to copying everything he (reportedly) did, just means you're buying into his (companies) hype.

Carry on, and I really do appreciate the wit.

Viper out.

I remember the rubber bands. And the brush buttons. And the "space age" three arm Saunders product. I also recall a buncha guys that were geezers then that only used....just the string and heavier arrows. I like how limb dampeners and string silencers and self adhesive soft sided velcro helps. I kinda like the old Fred Bear legacy, but, I have to agree with Viper...he was a very smart businessman. And a snapshooter who managed to make that work him.

Fred Bear WAS an accomplished archer and bowhunter and facts clearly prove that. Your, my or anyone else's opinion will not change facts.

On the other hand, you wrote a non fiction book with not a single original idea. I also can't seem to find any evidence of Olympic medals or trophies you've won or game you've killed. I could care less honestly, they are your lies you tell them how you want and if people believe you, that's on them.

You talk to grown men like they are toddlers and look down your nose from the safety of your keyboard. You're an arrogant jerk with a huge, unearned ego in my opinion.

I agree with Supernaut you guys that post your accomplishments but never see any proof of game or shooting records are nothing but want bes and jealousy

Fred was a good bowhunter, business person, inventor, and promoter of the day. One does not diminish the other.

Guys -

I love the level of delusion.

I'll use the last post as an example.

Sure he was a "good bow hunter". But what's good? Go on a planned hunt with a tech and camera crews and the odds are you'll come home with something.

Business person - agreed. THAT was his strong suit. Yes, he DID hire people to design his bows and accessories, that makes a great businessman, but says nothing about HIS archery skills.

Inventor, really? What did ol' Freddie personally invent that we still use? Don't confuse what people in his company invented, (that he had the rights to), with any thing he personally invented. Compare that to Earl Hoyt who actually INVENTED and patented bow designs that actually won medals and titles (and still do). Or Ben Pearson, who's company motto was to designs bow that any one could afford and did?

Promoter, yes. Can't, and would try to take that away from him, that WAS his job. I don't know what went on in his mind, I'd like to believe he loved archery, but he could have been selling vacuum cleaners with the same zeal.

How many people have a copy of "his" Archer's Bible? I have it since the early 70's, and had to have read and reread it a dozen times. The cover picture says it all. There's ol' Freddie in an beautiful autumn setting, with the camo jacket, fedora, no anchor, no alignment, and a brand new, bright (shinny) Super Kodiak, the the spring arm bow quiver. (Anybody have any luck keeping that on without a ton of tape?) And just for the record, at least I wrote the book that has has my name on it, no Virginia, he didn't write "his".

Give him credit, for what he did (I do), but please don't over embellish things he never really was.

In short, respect the man for what he was and actually did, but don't make him out to be something he wasn't.

Just my opinion.

Viper out.

"In short, respect the man for what he was and actually did, but don't make him out to be something he wasn't."

It seems like you are going out of your way to disrespect or diminish Fred Bear's accomplishments in my opinion and apparently the opinion of other's here by the looks of the posts on this thread alone.

"Give him credit, for what he did (I do), but please don't over embellish things he never really was."

Fred Bear is an Icon, plain and simple. I've never heard any account of him acting like a jerk towards anyone. In fact, I've heard a ton of accounts of just how nice a guy he was. You compiled facts into a work of non-fiction, cool and good for you. If you think that gives you a free pass to disparage true Icons like Fred Bear or talk to people like you're somehow better than them well, I'm afraid I've got some bad news.

Fred Bauder X8

who done more than Fred to promote bow season in the 50s ?

Still waiting to see proof of all your achievements. You're just a Bear Archery hating troll.

So the OP’s original question was “ When did silencers become popular?”

Interesting to watch the quick progression of the train wreck that emanated from that simple question fuelled by arrogant stump pissing keyboard warriors with huge egos.

So the OP’s original question was “ When did silencers become popular?”

Interesting to watch the quick progression of the train wreck that emanated from that simple question fuelled by arrogant stump pissing keyboard warriors with huge egos.

Pdiddly2, I apologize for my part in getting this thread off track.

I'm not going to apologize for my comments towards Viper. I'd say the same things to his face or anyone else's in person for that matter. If people got called out for their shi**y behavior more often maybe we wouldn't have so much shi**y behavior.

N -

I don't "hate" the man, and never said, he wasn't "a nice guy". I just don't get my information from his/his companies press agent(s).

People like to be delusional, believe whatever you like.

Viper out.

Respect the man for what he was and actually did. I can’t believe you said that. What ( besides compiling others information) have you done?

Viper is the one who derailed the thread and knew he was going to. A true troll. The rest of us followed suit, maybe we shouldn’t but then maybe we should. A lot of us spoke to the original op with our experience in the past. To bad threads go south but as long as arrogant, condescending, self serving know it all’s use a thread to run down others ( archery icon or not) this will happen. Unfortunate as it is, I make no apologies for anything I said in response to an unnecessary act of idiocy.

X10

"People like to be delusional, believe whatever you like."

yes! and I believe Viper you are a hoeses ass with a self inflated ego

Pdiddly2 x 2 Wasn’t meant to be a Icon bashing or putting on a pedestal thread. I agree Fred was a VERY smart business man and a very good hunter who has had many game animals in Pope and Young. Oh and by the way he help start that organization. A big thank you to him and a few other pioneers for getting this country interested in archery and bow hunting. Oh yeah, I’m pretty sure he invented the bow quiver along with a shooting glove.

Viper - in nearly 20 years of watching you post here and other forums about your incredible teaching skills to 1000's, I have not seen one person come forward and talk about their time with you. I have not seen you mention a single student of yours placing in a tournament of any standing. I have not seen results from even a single tournament that you competed in let alone placed.

For an instructor of you level and achievements, how you possibly kept this all a secret? Like others have said, how about a VERIFIABLE list of your various achievements. Not a critique of Fred Bear or anyone else in your attempt a validation. Show us what you have done other than post on a forum

This thread is turning into a mob of crows screaming at an owl. If people have a problem with another forum member, be brave enough to work it out with PM's; it's easy to pile on when there's a whole pack egging each other on. Get back to the topic. If we need a thread about whether or not Fred Bear is sinner or saint, then somebody start one.

I see a bunch of people that are sick of someone's constant BS. Actions have consequences.

I also noticed that you didn't address the topic of the thread either crookedstix.

I'd guess that string silencers became popular among the masses in the 70's. I like yarn puff string silencers and Fred Bear.

Fair enough, Supernaut-- I use yarn puffs that I make myself, thanks to a video that Rick Barbee posted about five years back. But instead of 38 strands I use 32, and I also keep the finished diameter pretty small; they're never more than an inch and a half overall. I've probably made a couple hundred of these over the last five years, using a couple of skeins of mottled brown-tan-cream colored yarn.

There's something quite therapeutic about settling in to make a few pairs on a rainy or snowy afternoon; I can do it with a game or a movie on in the background. It's also kinda fun to see them fluff out after a few shots, and turn from a flat disc into a nice round puffball. Simple pleasure for a simple mind, lol.

crookedstix- Your denigration of corvids has been noted. Any continued disparagement of my kind will be met with an aerial invasion of your kingdom by a murder of my brethren armed with EDB's slinging guano frozen into the shape of arrows. :)

Nrthernrebel05- Best wishes for a speedy and full recovery. I would opine that the dual use nature of brush buttons gave rise to purpose built string silencers.

Crookedstix,

Is that video still accessible. I'd like to take a look at it. I use yarn puffs myself when I use something. But mine usually don't fill out as full as I'd like to see them. Mine are more of a "fashion statement" as someone said because my longbows are pretty quiet without them. I just happen to like the look.

Not to take anything away from Fred's or any of the early bow hunters accomplishments.

But I have read numerous times that back in the early days the animals had very little fear of man in fact in several instances the animals were even curious of man.

So with this in mind a quiet as possible bow was probably not of much concern to early bow hunters such as Fred.

I can't believe I finished this whole thread.....

-Joe

Here's a good video on yarn puff balls.

https://youtu.be/3LK4p9sIjdE By ty lee

"It's also kinda fun to see them fluff out after a few shots, and turn from a flat disc into a nice round puffball. Simple pleasure for a simple mind, lol."

I agree 100%!

I've been making my own yarn puff silencers for over 30 years. I like them for four reasons. They work. I can make them any size I want. I can make them any color I want. And best of all they are cheap to make. :)

I noticed the guy in the video uses the same tool as Nemo to get it done. They look very uniform compared to just stuffing forty strands in the string.

I used to use a block of wood with two finishing nails. I went to the piece of plastic clothes hanger eight years ago.

We had no silencers back in the 60s but we did use brush buttons just to keep the brush from snagging the limbs. I dont think we knew are bows were loud maybe it was because they were semi recurve and they were quite. When I was young Fred Bear was my hero and still is today not only in bowhunting but in archery and business .

Snow crow--usually when I compare human behavior to something in the animal kingdom, I include an apology to the animals! I was remiss in forgetting to do so this time, lol. Call off your gauno squadron, and I'll amend my behavior.

I just wrap the yarn around my first three fingers...12 wraps of the yarn in the thickness I use...snip, then lay down the wool wrap on top of a pre-cut piece of fine yarn to tie it off.

Then insert into the string, snip, and watch it expand as you pluck the string. Trim to shape.

If you want two colour puffs then wrap both colours around your fingers at the same time, but halve the number of wraps...so six for two colour.

I love you guys!

crookedstix-

The murder flight has been recalled. A scout was left behind to monitor any anti- Corvid behavior in the Kingdom..

Unfortunately, the squadron spent the night gorging on carrion and dead fish in anticipation of a full attack and could not return to roost fully loaded. While searching for a suitable bomb drop area, the pathfinder spotted a semi-feral cat. The attack caw was issued and the entire squadron jettisoned their loads in Frisky's yard.

:)

Congratulations “ole vipey” you finally managed to piss off most of the Wall, obviously you’ve been trying to for years with your arrogance. The way I see it you were called out so it’s time to put up or shut up, so let’s see the animals you’ve taken and ,your trophies and medals or accomplishments. If you don’t you’ve lost all credibility if you had any to start with. Now to the OP, I’ve been shooting a bow for over 40 years and I remember always having string silencers. In my experience I’ve never have owned a bow or seen one that string silencers didn’t help with noise after the shot.

I saved Barbee’s thread on his puffs and was going to repost it for those interested but the video has expired, sorry. I made a jig as he showed in the video and have made many sets, makes great uniformed puffs. Maybe someone can talk Rick into reposting.

Tree, et al -

I out grew hunting decades ago, probably for reasons certain people here, like yourself, couldn't understand.

But, this thread does prove a point. While I actually do have respect for what "ol Freddie" did for archery, I can see the bigger picture.

As for pissing off most of "the wall", well that's not exactly true. As is pretty clear, no one has actually been able to refute anything I said, buying into besides "ol Freddie's" press releases, they take the easy way out and attack the messenger.

And believe me, I know the Internet games that people play here, and that also proves my point. Basically, if some one disagrees with your beliefs, they're arrogant, , IOWs, your opinion is the only one that counts, is that about it???

Prove me wrong.

Viper out.

PDiddly,

That is what I have been doing but my puffs don't seem to come out as full as I'd like. Maybe I just need more strands/wraps. Do people feel inserting the yarn into the string works better or worse than tying it on? These cosmetic issues are really important. :-) I sometimes can't sleep at night worrying about them.

Haven't noticed if it was mentioned or not, but everyone was also shooting dacron strings... Like them or not, they are quieter.. or generally quieter.

I personally don't care for the feel of dacron so I only shoot FF and use a pair of puffs and voila, a quiet bow.

BigJIm

Ole vipey,

It’s just not my opinion your arrogant.

Bill…I split the strands evenly and put the puff between them. The twists in the string keep it in place.

If they are not as full as you like then add more turns…it took some trial and error with me.

Pdiddly,

OK. I want to put a couple of puffs on my new Yellowstone Longbow even though it doesn't need them. I will see if I can get better results. Just curious but how do you split a three bundle string "evenly"? :-)

Come on Ole Toni Baloney. Show us the pics of the dead animals you killed and the trophies you won. Pics or it didn't happen as has been said on here.LOL

X2 BABYSAPH

What do you expect with 'Viper' as a handle.

I think big gim has a good point about dacron strings. Someone also mentioned the use of heavier arrows than most today.

I lived 15 minutes from the bear manufacturing facility in Gainesville fla for several years. I visited the museum frequently & one thing that always got my attention was the number of big wolf's in the museum. Now Fred always said the flighty whitetail was the most difficult of all to hunt. Now imagine that whitetails tougher to kill than wolf's !!!

Times have changed. Animals have evolved. Modern high energy bows make more noise & animals are much more aware of humans.

So a quiet bow is perhaps more important than back in the old days.

Bill…just put it under one of the bundles…did that on quite a few bows when I still bought three bundle strings.

I also came up through the days with no silencers, and then to rubber bands, brush buttons, etc. Yes, Jack Howards' Gamemaster Jet was super quiet with nothing on the string. And, I have Never seen another string like the original that Jack made and put on the Jet. Assenheimers bows were also extremely quiet out of the box. I had two small rubber bands on my Bear Takedown when they first came out. Worked fine.

Fred Bear also used very thick bowstrings which would tend to quite things down a bit.

Just an observation.

Vitriol reveals a persons character and the quality of their beliefs.

It is true most of us shot with brush buttons on the string back in the day, and they did act as silencers to an extent. I have tried Rick Barbee's ear plug silencers, and they work fine. Similar to brush buttons, but lighter.

Interesting thread-- just an observation. :)

It seems we have a Viper trashing bandwagon going on. A whole bunch of folks jumping on his case because he doesn't worship Fred Bear as much as most folks here.

I wouldn't know him if I walked into him on the street but he has helped me on a couple of occasions and his advice proved to be correct. I have disagreed with him on occasion as well. Sometimes the way he expresses himself is a bit caustic.

All that being said why does everyone feel pics of dead animals proves anything about his expertise? Or for that matter any archery tournament trophies. I have no clue as to his accomplishments in those areas and I don't care. But I do know there are people out there doing a good job of coaching in archery as well as other sports, even at the professional level who were no good at it themselves. And plenty of people have accumulated expert knowledge on a subject without ever having been there or done that.

So this "show me your dead animals or trophies" nonsense is just that. There are plenty of reasons for any of us to like or dislike each other. But this kind of dumpfest contributes nothing to the Leatherwall. Just argue the subject matter.

Thank you Bill R. I agree.

We’ve become far too enamoured with the troll tactics that have permeated social media, including the LW, in the last couple of years. They contribute nothing to the discourse except bad feelings.

Let’s stick to the topic of traditional archery and recognize everyone’s right to have an opinion that is divergent from our own, as long as it is presented respectfully.

X2 with Riverwolf.

Well spoken Riverwolf

I guess I will bow out to the eternal wisdom of those who believe this is the best way to correct a perceived wrong.

For the record I don't worship anyone on this or any other forum. I have people I respect and people I don't. That includes people I agree with and people I don't.

It is interesting to note who is on the Riverwolf bandwagon. You folks are welcome to deal with this your way. There seems to be a lot of you.

I can see why a number of people are getting disenchanted with what the Leatherwall us becoming.

I won't bother you any more.

Viper has bluntly spoken his mind for the 18 years I've been a member of the 'wall. I don't recall him ever blowing his cool with anyone. He's brief and blunt. BFD

Keep in mind Phil controls what's acceptable around here. You don't.

Yep, Viper has always been straight to the point and no nonsense.. I would take that attitude over the passive aggressive posts and comments that seem to have become the norm now days..

You can be blunt and to the point without being disrespectful, asinine and condescending.

I have reread Viper's posts on this thread. Please quote for me the disrespectful, asinine or condescending words. He presented a different perspective on what Fred Bear's contributions to archery and bowhunting were. Is everybody mad because he called him Freddie? People throw out cute nicknames for people often around here. He questioned some of what people admire him for and he made positive statements about his business acumen. What was disrespectful or asinine about that?

Bob and Stan -

Thanks for getting it. Most of this stuff wouldn't happen if some people here would learn to read, instead on "reading into".

grizz -

I'm afraid you're going to have to show me where I was "disrespectful, asinine and condescending". Lord knows, I've had plenty of opportunities... OK, maybe that may have been "disrespectful, asinine and condescending", but you started it. LOL (We really need emojis here.)

Viper out.

Bill -

Thanks.

Anyway, always happy to add to the entertainment.

Viper out.

Referring to Fred Bear as ole freddy is disrespectful. Telling people on a forum that is 90% bowhunters that bowhunting is childish is not only disrespectful but stupid. Talking down to others as if you are on some sort of lofty perch is all the above. I could go on but it would be futile for you nor your minions will ever see it.

As far as accomplishments, I’ll tell you how I feel about that also. As an automotive technician of 35 years, I never expected customers to believe I knew what I was doing simply because I said so. I had many certifications from basic mechanics to computer technologies. They were displayed for proof of knowledge and experience. I never spoke disparagingly of anyone else in my profession, not my men nor my competitors. If I had, I would have expected to be reprimanded and basically told where to get off bye customers and peers. But you don’t get it.

In an effort to be fair, I’ve searched your name on several major archery association web sites. Frankly, I’ve not had one hit on you as a competitor nor champion. I don’t think I’ve ever requested proof from you but others have. If you are an accomplished archer/ archery champion, why are you ashamed of it?

Many years ago I compiled a book on making and tuning wood arrows. No intention to get it published just a teaching aid because I was teaching others that were interested in the process. This didn’t make me an author. It made me someone who had compiled known information for a tool. It didn’t make me an expert nor champion archer and it certainly did not give me the right to talk down to others as if I was an archery icon.

Oh and btw, I didn’t start anything, you did. You’ve even done it on another thread(anyone use a stabilizer) trying to get the same crap started with another “ ol Freddy “ remark. You continue to troll this subject.

grizz -

Really, that's your argument?

Again, show me, and everybody else (specifically), where I'm "disrespectful, asinine and condescending" or more importantly - wrong.

If using the term "ol freddie" bothers you, that's not really my problem, is it? It is the working guy image he portrayed. It worked well for him.

Good thing we never saw a picture of "ol freddie" with a compound. Think about it.

Viper out.

Geez, this simple thread has turned to crap. But forgive me because I'm going back on track. Tim Findley said we didn't have string silencers in the 60s. We did. Here is a picture dated 1969 with them on a Bear Grizzly. I bought that bow in 1966 but didn't take any pictures of it until I killed that deer. I put silencers on it when I bought the bow in '66.

There’s pictures of Fred Bear and compounds. It’s useless, you’re morally bankrupt and will never get it. Once again you’ve evaded the subject of YOU.

grizz -

Ah, yeah I know the picture(s), there were a number of ads for them, that was my point. And thank you for proving my other point. 'night grizz.

And happily, I understand that it's not about me ;)

Viper out.

Oh yeah, it’s about you. I can’t really say you are morally bankrupt but it appears that way. As far as I’m concerned, all you claim to be doesn’t exist. As you appear to be completely full of yourself, I will waste no more time on you.

Reddogge, Nice picture!

grizz - he will never get it from that lofty platform he has self elevated to. Still can't believe such a master instructor with 1000's of students (self alleged) has NEVER had one identify themselves as a student

I think trash talking someone who's long passed away, and who has contributed as much as he did to his chosen field like Fred Bear did, without ever actually meeting him, knowing him, or any other such things is about as cowardly a thing as one can do. That's pretty pathetic Viper. The man is not here to defend himself and you can nitpick all you wish. It just shows how small you are. Just saying.

"They use Fred in the advertisements because he literally invented the industry"

Um,No. Pearson did just as much, if not more, so did Hoyt and Easton. No one person literally made the industry. In the 1960's, no one, no one sold more bows and archery gear than Pearson.

I just cut a length of para cord and use the sheath, it works well for me:)

I am 65 and grew up in an archery family. From personal recollection starting around 1965, my dad and mom and their bowhunting friends all used both brush buttons and some sort of string silencer - either cat whiskers , rubber bands or the three- cornered Kwikee type - on their bows. In the attached photo my dad took in deer hunting camp in Northern Michigan in 1953, the guy in the middle with a recurve has no visible silencers on his string, but the guy on the far left with the lemonwood bow has both brush buttons and silencers.

3D -

Do you mean to tell me that other people made bows in years past besides ol' freddie? Did they all personally hand lay each one like he did? Who'da thunk it.

Yeah, history is a great thing when you can rewrite it at will.

Guys, you do realize, it's not ol' freddie I'm making fun of, right?

Viper out.

I don't know when silencers became popular but I used those Kwikee rubber ones with the three arms along with brush buttons and heavy fiberglass arrows back in the sixties along with Dacron and my bows were very quite, slow I imagine but quite. I use yarn silencers today that I made a little jig for just for uniformity as well as brush buttons and D-97. Aluminum arrows. Bow is still quite and may be slow I really don't know or care, it gets the job done. As to the Bear comments by Viper I can just wonder how you judge someone you never knew nor saw shoot and obliviously have no respect for, it is your opinion only, well now I am just as guilty because I feel the same way, I don't know you but I have formed my opinion. Does it matter to you ? I am sure it does not, sometimes one's ego will not allow that. Perhaps you might consider that if you are trying to make a point about re writing history there are better ways to go about it. I think we miss a point about the way things were back in the day so to speak. The older I get and the more of the older archers I talk to the more I see a difference by the region of the country we were in at the time as to much of the history, things that were common in one area were not in another so perceptions are different. To make a blanket statement that "this" is how things really were may or may not be true.

3D, Yep ol'Benny, ol'Gaillie, ol'Howie, ol'Earlie, ol'Damonie, ol'Rootie, ol'Jonnie (or ol'Brownie), and even ol'Georgie all contributed to archery and have a place in archery history.

Nem0 -

Ya forgot ol' Bobbie, talk about disrespect.

Darryl -

Sure, that's all fine. But... I can have respect for the man, but not necessarily the myth. It's the difference between knowing what he was and what he wasn't.

"just wonder how you judge someone you never knew nor saw shoot"

Well, historians do that all the time, and IIRC there are a few videos of ol' freddie out there somewhere.

And just for giggles. He (ol'freddie) said he wasn't a great (or good) shot. I actually believe him. He was the owner/president or whatever of a multi-million dollar archery company, with access to some of the best archers and coaches in the country, if not the world. Not sure I saw too many accounts of him asking for help, or maybe, just maybe, that wasn't his priority. I don't know for sure, and frankly, neither do you. That's the problem, with any "name", what the public sees and reality may or may not be the same thing.

The actually problem I have here, are the number of people so wrapped up in the myth, the possibility of speculation is beyond their comprehension.

It's just a hobby, deal with it.

Viper out.

"Maybe he will “out grow” this site , like he did hunting ."

Would this be lightly veiled sarcasm that disrepects...while you write "Being disrespectful is nothing new unfortunately , it usually comes from people who have low self esteem and have no self confidence. That’s what I see here in Viper." What do you see when you look in the mirror?

Done with this passive aggressive defensive stupidity. "That's what I see here in ...".

"LOL"

Viper is just a Frisky wannabe.

Not that he needs me to assist in his defense, a bit of internet research demonstrates how fortunate we are to have Mr. Camera on this forum. Check out his Wikipedia article.

Anthony "Viper" Camera is an American archer, inventor, entrepreneur, author, and film-maker. A polymath with more than 300 patents, 50 published books, and 5 feature-length films (three of which he composed the musical scores, wrote the scripts, produced and directed), he holds numerous archery records (many of which were set decades ago) in flight shooting, most bullseyes in a day, youngest NFAA level III instructor, first NFAA level VII instructor, and largest red marmot shot in Pen Yan, NY. An elite coach, he was instrumental in the success of Hubert Van Innis, Darrell Pace, Geena Davis, and Queenie Newall.

Generally considered the father of modern archery, he was granted his first patent, for string silencers, at age 11. He held over 100 patents by the time he was 18, including quivers, interchangeable limbs, stabilizers, an arrow fletching machine, finger tabs, shooting gloves, sights, bow stringers, and numerous string improvements. He also designed and implemented standards for measuring bows, which led to the development of a system for classifying arrows based on flex, dynamic spine, and overall weight.

Forgoing full scholarship offers from MIT, Harvard, Princeton, and Yale, he completed a BS in Physiology at NYU in an astounding 2.5 semesters. He started Viper Archery Manufacturing Company while still a student. It is best known for the Viper Longcurve, the first bow to incorporate a recurve top limb and longbow bottom limb. When outfitted with a Viper-Vision sight and Viper-Venom arrows, the Viper Longcurve is so accurate that it is banned from most competitions. Citing its astounding accuracy, wildlife agencies in 38 states restrict Viper Longcurves to the rifle season.

Mr. Camera is best known for his comprehensive archery encyclopedia "Shooting the Stickbow," an exhaustive compendium that traces archery from prehistoric times to the present. At 50 volumes, it is the largest encyclopedia in the world.

When not working on his foundation, The Camera Center for Archery Development, Mr. Camera enjoys contributing to archery forums.

From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Bear

Guys -

Wow, I really appreciate the compliments. Still, if anything I said was wrong, I'd really do want to hear about it. I understand that when the (actual) message can't be disputed, attacking the messenger is always a viable option on the Internet.

Thanks again!

Viper out.

Ishi, That's hilarious. "LOL"

You had me at Queenie Newall. My iced tea went up my nose.

This place is turning into a thin skinned whining convention..

Two things about Fred Bear are 'beyond contestation'. 1) he was a great story teller, and it didn't bother him or anybody listening that the details of his stories rarely carried over exactly from one telling to the next. 2) he had am impish sense of humor, especially in his later decades. I feel confident that nobody would chuckle about this thread more than Fred Bear.

Deal with it you said, trust me I will. Perhaps you should grow up and deal with it to. Sorry for offending you and your fragile ego after all you know everything and no one else knows anything. Perhaps it is as simple as Fred Bear the man and the myth might be one and the same to a great many people. I must wonder about a person who has such a need to educate others that their perceptions, their beliefs are wrong. You seemed wrapped up in him not being some super shot or something. You say he claimed to not be a great or even good shot, ever hear of something called being humble ? I doubt it. I saw him shoot, did you ? I thought not. He was by any standard far better than average. He was good enough for what he did and his record of game killed proves it. Clever words Viper do not hide arrogance. So go deal with it.

This thread was brought to my attention via PM's ..busy Holiday wknd. Holey shhimoley...dude asks a question about string silencers, when they first came about...well I remember a visit to the Chicago Field Museum of Natural History long ago. On display were actual artifacts of our Native Americans from long ago. Nothing replicated, all authentic and stated so with the time period collected. There were several bows on display, all looking very aged, some broken. Most had some type of decoration...feathers, cloth,animal skins and fur. Although most of those decorations were on the bow wood itself, plenty had some type of fur, feathers on the string. Though severely degraded, you could still distinguish the feathers, skins and furs.

Purely decorations or were they tuning...eh? :)) So that might be where string silencers originally came about.eh?

Ishi , that’s funny.

I see Toni Baloney still hasn't shown any evidence of any medals or trophies he's won. I'm shocked.

Giant phony and seeing some of you run to his defense makes it easy to see why this place is so prone to scammers in the classifieds.

Forgot to add to the op ,,,hope you heal up quick bud.

The bile being spewed here is incredible. Congrats haters. The 'wall has truly been diminished by your posts. Sleep well.

Pdiddly2 nailed it, they shot at long distance. I also think they didn't put as much into it in certain regards.

In one of the Wensel/Blaze videos they had this theory that if you shot under 15, of over 35, deer would not be as likely to jump the string. I would think most modern day hunter shoot in the forbidden zone.

Obviously a lot of guys early on worked for their trophies, and there are always the exceptional people, who make up more of what we remember from 70 years ago. But I remember when tree stands weren't all that common. If you spend 5 years, in one of your 400 stands, trying to nail some B&C deer, you want every detail to be perfect. And we keep accumulating more stuff towards that end. But if you are Fred Bear, and you have the money to hunt tiger in India, it is a different deal. He famously shot one trophy out of sight over the brow of a hill. I want to see the blooper reel... But suffice to say, I don't think that ram heard it coming.

This is simply a discussion forum, with different opinions. I do not see any hate from posters.

I'd like to add a comment. First off, Fred Bear knew archery. He invented the modern bow quiver. His designs and construction were so good, my quiver will be the first to advance them. He also invented the best take down system. He knew that by raising brace height and adding brush buttons, he had a better shooting and quieter bow. As stated in this thread, brush buttons became string silencers before string silencers! Now, Fred's silencers helped quiet a bow but didn't work for me, as they always, in time, flew off the string. What's needs today are brush buttons that are quieter than the old beige ones we all loved. They're on the string, not the limbs, and they're close to the tips, not out on the string somewhere. That means they won't slow the shot down a bit like puffs do. My new brush buttons will be the first to advance them too. Even if you use a thin, FF string, adding properly made brush buttons should quiet it to longbow levels or better, if you also get the brace height right.

Joe

Frisky, I have only the one recurve and I'm waiting for your superior brush buttons. I won't shoot it until I get them. So come on now...or I just might have to sell the bow. ;)

Viper.....you are dismissed.

ottertails out.

Frisky is just a Viper wannabe.

Too funny..........

Yall have whooped this horse dead. Cut it up & ate it & now are crapping out the remains.

If Fred bear is an icon to you great. If he is not so be it. An argument based on opinions will never be resolved. Get over it & move on.

Thank you timex for the timely comment!!

Time to move on...

Sorry, Frisky. That comment was unkind of me— I meant it to be funny but it didn’t come across that way...

LOL!

Joe

Question: What is the condition of one who believes everyone delusional but himself?

@fewfeathers....where I'm from its called "assholedness". But, I'm not a medical professional, just stayed at a few Holiday Inns.

Can't believe I missed this thread. Hilarious.

I've been here over 20 years and Viper has always hated Fred Bear. He caused a similar dustup about a decade ago when he said Fred "basically sucked" as an archer.

It's all kinda funny, livens the place up.

I made popcorn after I started reading this and I must say thanks to all who contributed to this, it was hilarious and Ishe's post really cracked me up. All in all very entertaining.

Moderator, please vanish this entire thread.

You got to be kidding I am not a particularly a big Bear fan .I would never be so disrespecfull to criticise him.Fred I think is responsible for getting more folk involved in archery than just about any one.How much influence has Viper had in that regard.Hey and I am not a Bear bow fan either.You still need to respect the man FULL STOP.Its just plane disgracefull Osr

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