now of course you guys know I like to stir the pot from time to time but this is a true legit question. Did those guys worry about all this stuff? Did Paul Schafer and those guys stand on their head like some of us do to kill a scroungy ole deer? Please tell me they didn't. LOL

should of known,, it was you asking,,,,,,,

No they did not; both had their arrows made by people who understood spine, Bear archery & Ben Pearson archery.

Bob

Trolling Trolling trolling

No but imo they would be in 2022.

Until carbons came along the only guy that I knew who bareshafted was Ken Beck. Wood arrows had a formula we followed for picking shafts. Aluminums were easy, we had choices, we could find a couple if not more sizes to accommodate our use. Need a little more spine for that big broadhead but want similar flight? Go up one size, say 2114 to 2213. Want a heavy arrow? Go with 2018 or 2020. Now we can’t even get standardized of “spine” between carbon shaft makers. What is one guys 500 spine maybe someone else 400 spine. It’s a no wonder we need all those “accessories “ to get an arrow to fly. Of course “bareshafting “ and carbons have created a new industry.

bs -

Yeah, the trolling is getting a little old.

Viper out.

What's the matter with you guys? I don't see this as trolling. The guy asked a question that I too was interested in. Thanks, Bob, for not blowing it off and answering the question.

David Mitchell x2 (Of course OP didn't help himself by announcing he was trolling..)

Read above Your post Aromaker. Was a legit question

I see you can’t read 2 bears

I’ll tell you what is old Viper. Your know it all attitude. You claim to be a expert but still no pics or videos. Anyone can stick arrows in a target. I simply asked a question. What is trolling about it? If bareshafting is such a great thing to do I was wondering if they did it. Seems they didn’t know as much about spine as you do. Don’t post your know it all comments without a video because I’m not falling for it like your cronies. You always act like no one else shoots good enough to be even shooting a bow. Let’s see your Olympic Medals. I said what lots won’t say. So buzz off. You didn’t even need to respond. I explained myself in the original post

Seems every question I ask need so be prefaced with some disclaimer. I saw thread the other day that asked which was best left wing or right wing feathers? I’d I asked that question I would have been called a troll or been told to search the archives. I’m done

Seriously? ....and niether have I and a lot of other people. Pointless. Proper spine and tuning. Not many actually on the olympic team here. It's a close range sport.

You are implying that anyone who takes the time to bareshaft etc is wasting their time just because you, Fred, and Howard don’t.

Howard and Fred learned the correct shaft to use through trial and error. I know it was Hill's practice to just shoot a bunch of arrows and group those that grouped together the way he wanted. Don't know how Fred determined the best shaft for him, but after he found it, he just grabbed a box or two of the appropriately spined arrows whenever he needed them.

bs -

Yeah, it's trolling because you already knew the answer, just like your question to me was trolling.

Glad I could add the the entertainment.

Viper out.

" I’d (sic)I asked that question I would have been called a troll or been told to search the archives. I’m done"

Yes you would have been called a troll ( you've more than earned that) and you would have been told to search the archives and, finally, we can only hope you're "done."

Feel free to fling back a few insults...considering the source they mean diddly squat to me.

I did not know the answer but Arromaker did. HH and Fred had someone else make their arrows that knew what spine was. I didn't troll you. Just spoke the truth. Would not have done that had you not called me out for trolling. Still waiting on all the pics of trophies and videos of you shooting. If not you are no better than anyone else. Just talk a good game. I am not afraid to call out posers on here. I know it doesn't mean much to me. I am too polite to call a guy out on a thread because he is trying to learn so I didnt do that. I will admit there is a lot I don't know about archery but I will post a pic if I did it. Like you guys say. Pic or it didn't happen. Pics please.

Did cavemen do dentistry?

I think they both shot a lot of broadheads. Again, I would give up shooting bare shafts if it were practical to shoot more broadheads because broadheads are the bottom line for me anyway.

I've read where Mr Bear "adjusted" or "varied" his draw length especially on longer shots. And he shot big feathers on today's standards. No doubt it worked for him.

I would think not. I can say after 60 years in this business I have never seen anyone bare shaft an arrow so I think bare shafting an arrow is limited to just a few. You wouldn't have to do this when using a properly spined arrow.

Jr, watch Ken Beck on utube on bare shafting. That will clear things up for you on bare shafting, and as he says shoot a bare shaft with your feather groups which will be your best teacher short of a coach. When you then learn the process correctly your bow will be well tuned for hunting, or target shooting.

Why would they need to bare shaft. When they needed more arrows, I would think they just ordered the same kind that shot well previously?

Babysaph, I don't know if Fred or Howard would bareshaft if they were here today. I doubt they would as they were already successful at shooting and hunting. I do think it's a good question and that's just my opinion.

As far as the medals and trophies won by egomaniacs I guess it's hard to produce things that don't exist.

Keep doing you my friend and don't sweat it. No one is forcing anyone to read your threads or comment on them.

"You wouldn't have to do this when using a properly spined arrow."

Ahh, but how do you know it's properly spined without testing? Spine charts or even calculators can only give you a starting point. Then you have to tune, by paper, or bare shaft, or just plain shooting for groups at distance.

Bear and Hill probably had arrows by the hundreds on hand and simply shot until they found the best shooters. 'Culling' wood arrows is probably as good a method as any other.

Would anyone bother to bare shaft test shafts that were not completely uniform?

With the exception of specialized arrows for elephants and such, I would bet they just had boxes of the same matched arrows that they used one behind the other and kept themselves in stock with the same.

I have never read an account of them fiddling around with different bows much. Maybe that's the key?

Downcanyon I agree 100% !

I don't know about Fred and Howard ... but I do

I love bare- shafting wodden arrows

John Schulz told me that he never witnessed Hill shooting through paper, but he did observe Hill shooting his arrows for "groups" out of different bows. He kept all the arrows shooting down the line and grouping together in bundles for each particular bow. But...he knew that spine could vary quite a bit and the arrows would still fly down the line. They didn't have to be perfect. Schulz told me it was "the archers that need tuning more than the equipment". That said, Hill tested his broadhead design in a wind tunnel for the best flight, so he was interested in proper arrow flight. I would guess that as long as the arrows flew where he wanted them to go, then they were correct for that bow.

Bear has said that he preferred large fletch, and used underspined arrows and built out his arrow rest until the arrow went where he was looking.

It seems that these guys assumed that fletching was a part of the game. Both guys had done target archery using proper target arrows with small fletch and so they knew the flight dynamics of such. Later, when Hill was shooting at Nationals, he used heavy bows and heavy arrows and placed middle of the pack against guys using target weight bows/arrows. However, when he shot in field archery and hunting, his equipment was more suited to the task. They just shot larger fletch and probably didn't stress about it like guys do today.

I would venture a guess that even the guys shooting super-tuned bareshaft arrows at a target in today's world would be hard-pressed to guarantee they could shoot good enough in pressure situations to take a shot at a wood plate on a guy's chest, or shoot something out of a person's mouth, or off someone's head, or a brown bear or other dangerous animal at shorts-soiling range.

Those old guys like Hill, the Wilhelms, Vail, Garske, the Dills, Swinehart, Pletcher, Spencer, Young, Powell, and a host of other lesser knowns had complete confidence in their ability to put the arrow where it was needed. All they had to know was if the arrow went where they aimed, the rest was up to them. Their form wasn't as good as the general middle of the pack tourney shooters today, but because they really knew their equipment inside and out, they could place those non- bareshafted wood arrows in the target. If the chips were down I'd place my money on one of them making the shot.

When the chips are down and the trophy buck steps out, or the 10 ring has to be hit and a guys form breaks down even a tiny bit and the arrow is now under or overspined, those tiny 2" fletch won't help the arrow recover. I've witnessed it. Rare are the shooters who can hold their form together good enough in a high-pressure shot. I would like to see guys shooting those bare shafts in competition, or hunting/stump shooting as accurately as they do in the back yard or indoor range. If they can, they are the rarity for sure.

Sure they did. They also spent many nights around the campfire drinking Fireball and discussing things like, is 40# enough for deer, single bevel broadheads vs double bevel, instinctive vs gap, Flemish twist vs endless loop, 3 fingers under vs split finger, and extreme F.O.C. You would have loved their company BS. You would have fit right in.

Sunset Hill, that was a really well put post. Thanks for sharing it.

Ok I have bare shafted just to learn about it,, but dont do it much,, mostly if I am making a shaft from dogwood or something,,I hunted alot with Byron Ferguson,,and never saw him do it,, I did throw an asprin that he shot out of the air,, his fletches were big,,and his draw was shorter on arial targets,,

The greats shot lots of arrows, and found out what did, and did not work for them. Bareshafting is just a quicker, easier way to figure that out. Im sure with all the disussion of it now they would toy with it.Why does everyone have to be so critical? Guy asked a question. Simple to answer it, or ignore it. I enjoy threads that make you think, and give different opinions, and possibly answer questions.

I doubt most people that respond with a smart @$$ quip would do so in person, face to face. Looks like the keyboard warriors are amongst us. “So much cooler on line” comes to mind.

I get it Bluesman. . Kinda like guys that claim they kill this deer or that or who won such and such competition with no proof. They get a reputation as a liar. Or guys that post deer kills when they are not in the picture. If you kill it with a rifle at least put yourself and a bow in the picture

Yes sir Doc, you hit the nail squarely on the head and pounded it home with that last post.

I think BS told off a condescending, arrogant know it all after he posted a snide, condescending remark. I enjoyed it.

Nice thread.

Did people know much about bare shaft tuning back in the day of Bear and Hill? I don’t know. I have been shooting since the late 1960’s and I do not recall anyone local or on national magazines talking about bare shafting. Back in the day it seemed that people stopped if their arrows shot where they aimed.

I like seeing guys trophy pictures. If a guy has a lot of"proof" of what he has done he's probably worth listening to. I just purchased some arrows from a member who has been going through some health problems. He was kind enough to share pictures of his game room. When he tells me something I take notice. I guess I'm from Missouri you gotta show me.

Sunset Hill knows what he is talking about and Nate builds excellent longbows.

Jegs.mi X2

I'm smart enough to pay attention to the folks here that walk the walk when they are kind enough to offer their advice or wisdom.

Bareshaft tuning isn’t about being a perfect shooter

It’s about taking the time to insure the the arrow has every possible chance of flying correctly when we as the archer doesn't do everything just right.

Common sense should tell us an arrow that’s struggling to over come tuning issues by large feathers is not going to do nearly as good as an arrow someone has put in the work to insure its flying correctly

This will only be magnified by our own imperfections in the shot process.

With that said i know there’s guys that can shoot good maybe even great and never tune arrows. They work etc hard to make sure their form and shot process is good and their arrows have large enough feathers to correct.

Why not have e both???

Jegs said..."I like seeing guys trophy pictures. If a guy has a lot of"proof" of what he has done he's probably worth listening to. I just purchased some arrows from a member who has been going through some health problems. He was kind enough to share pictures of his game room. When he tells me something I take notice. I guess I'm from Missouri you gotta show me."

Depending on where they hunt they might have some good advice regarding hunting. Where I live those who have access kill deer. They aren't necessarily great hunters or great marksmen. My drunk neighbor kills a big buck just about every year from the same tree. He has a fabulous "trophy" room. Fortunately for him those big deer make a large enough target that even he can hit. LOL

Shooting theory or proficiency is a little easier to verify.

I'm not sure I understand these discussions or some of the replies...at least I hope I don't.

Those of us who hunt and do most of our fun shooting at fairly close range outside of big money competition, just need a broadhead to fly well enough to kill a deer or whatever. I guess there are multiple ways to get there though some are more efficient given my budget and geography.

The supposed methods of Hill and Bear as presented here probably wouldn't work very well for me.

Entertaining thread

The majority of the responses are very easy to understand.

Since bareshafting has become a "thing" here the conclusion that has been reached by many is that unless you tune using that method you cannot possibly be achieving optimal arrow flight. Therefore you cannot possibly be shooting as accurate an arrow as you could/should be, or being as ethical a hunter as you should be due to potentially decreased penetration on game. Also, as was mentioned in a post on this thread it is assumed that folks like Hill, Bear etc. would not have benefited from the practice due to form consistency deficiencies. These inconsistencies in form have been addressed in modern times with the help of various videos etc. and therefore modern archers are fundamentally superior which serves to afford them the ability to take advantage of the method.

And, any archer who is guilty of these short comings can be easily identified by the amount of feather that archer has on their arrows.

But in spite of information and evidence provided to the contrary you can't reliably accomplish bareshaft tuning with wood arrows and it isn't necessarily beneficial with any material but carbon.

Also, the only proper way to achieve an acceptable bareshaft tune is by trimming the arrow and adjusting point weight. Any other method such as adjusting the parameters of the bow is not acceptable and will in all likelihood lead to unacceptable results.

No other methods are acceptable and no other measure of actual determination of proper spine and arrow/shaft/bow matching will.lead to results that would be accepted by real archers.

sar·casm /?sär?kaz?m/ noun

1. The use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

BS You shouldn't have done that. I am inclined to bite back when called out. I have answered many many questions for you. Often when others wouldn't. I have unlimited patience with anyone trying to learn. You posted you carry a bare shaft as a teacher. You posted you don't shoot well enough to bare shaft. You posted if your feathered shafts are hitting in the bull why do you need to bare shaft. What!!! I guess I can read. I have been reading your nonsense for some time. Maybe it is time for a change.>>>>------> Ken

2bears who are you talking to?

I never bare shafted in all my yrs of shooting a traditional bow. I committed to using one bow through out the year specifically for hunting/stumping and the occasional 3D. Not to say I din't shoot other bows I had. Just Doesn't make sense to me to get an arrow to fly true with a particular point on it and nock and then add feathers or a bh or what have you. I did though on occasion use a hanging sheet of news print to tune arrows about 5' or so in front of the bow. I figured if the arrow recovered that quick out of the bow it had to be true to target down range. I also used heavy bh's for the time period and heavy arrows cause I shot heavy longbows. I always thought a heavier object at speed was less critical to error on the shooters part. Just to hard to get out of whack when releasing under pressure. Big 5.5" feathers helped too.

Reading Hill's books over and over through the years he grouped arrows for a particular bow as stated above. Those that didn't make the cut were, I don't know set aside or given away etc.

2 bears X 2.

Guys -

Let's be real, Hill and Bear didn't base shaft tune because they didn't know any better. Back when they got started, no one did. Std practice was to get as many arrows (or arrow spines) as possible and find the ones that shot best.

That practice is still viable today, if you have extra time and dollars on your hands. I think bare shafting has way more advantages than random trail and error testing, but that's just me. You can do whatever you like.

And while we're on the topic of "being real", Fred Bear basically sucked as a shooter. Check the facts. He won a couple of state matches in the late 1930's, using a longbow with a sight, got target panic, switched hands and never really shot well after that. So, no he probably would never have been good enough to bare shaft tune.

But he was just one of us, right? The fedora, the plaid shirt/jacket and the loose neck tie? His hunting trips were just like yours, with 4 gross of arras and a full camera crew. You do know that just about any picture you've ever seen of him was carefully staged, right? His skill was in marketing, and and most of you guys buy into it, hook line and sinker.

Enjoy.

Viper out.

X2 with CStyles. Entertaining thread.

"Fred Bear basically sucked as a shooter. Check the facts. He won a couple of state matches in the late 1930's"

That's a couple more matches than myself or anyone else I know can find about your purported shooting prowess so by your logic, you must REALLY suck at shooting.

"His skill was in marketing, and and most of you guys buy into it, hook line and sinker."

I guess your skill is writing a piece of non-fiction with not a single ground breaking or new idea in it and most of these guys buy right into it hook, line and sinker.

I guess you must have to have oversized door frames installed at your house to get your swelled head through "Guy".

Enjoy.

I don't know.....Fred was an exhibition shooter for a number of years trading shooting exhibitions for table/booth space in the sports shows that he wanted to exhibit in. He must have had SOME type of ability.

Fred's life and career were a perfect reflection of what the American Dream was back then. He came from a poor family, and worked his way up to be a defining mark on the archery industry here in the US. He wasn't born with the proverbial silver spoon and had to earn his way. He went to Detroit from Pennylvania to be a pattern maker for Packard Motors, and he got into archery quite accidentally. In other words the planets aligned for Papa Bear, which he lovingly became known as.

Fred would be the first to tell you he wasn't the best shot around, most of those folks were humble, but he surrounded himself with great shooters when he owned a bow manufacturing company and contributed greatly to both the bowhunting and target shooting pastimes. He was a regular at most of the National archery tournaments and was very approachable. His contributions far outweighed being just a good shot with the bow and arrow, or how much game he killed or how big it was.

Yep, he is still one of my heroes of yesteryear, as were a very few others...and I don't pick them lightly. I even found his grandpap's farm area where a young Fred did most of his traipsing as a youngun...it was just eleven miles from where I was born and raised. Incidentally, not far from that farm and nearer Carlisle, was a factory called Carlisle Leather that made quivers, armguards, tabs, etc. Coincidence? Likely so, but very interesting indeed. Cheers to Papa Bear.

I think both babysat and viper got it right about each other. By the way Fred didn’t change hands to shoot just his method he was missing a finger on his right hand.

There we go again, the only measure of archery skill in shooting is how well you shoot arrows at a target face...and if you only win two state tourneys and go on to slay animals all over the world with all kinds of shots in all kinds of situations, you're not a good shot. Ok then, now we know....

Kudos to Bear and Hill to forge their own paths, shooting arrows as straight as they could, showing and proving with their track record how accurate they were, leading the way for all the modern experts to follow.

I think I'll look up to and listen to the archery and bowhunting greats like Fred Bear, Ben Pearson, Gene and Barry Wensel, Roger Rothhaar, Art Young, Saxon Pope, Byron Ferguson, Art Laha, Howard Hill, Glenn St. Charles, Larry D. Jones, G. Fred Asbell, and Paul Schafer to name a few. They slammed the gavel down a long time ago.

Take it easy fellas, drive out Baby and this is going to be one dull web site. That said I admit I miss old One Sharpebroadhead..

You (viper) wrote a book. Apparently you’ve never read one or you’d know, Fred Bear never shot right handed. The reason was,as stated, the loss of the tip of a finger on his right hand. Cut off by his sister in an accident on the family farm caused by his, later well known, horseplay.

Those state matches were Michigan state championships and there were three of them. Now, I’ve never been an Olympic competitor (as you were not either) but I have competed at the state level (didn’t win) and I assure you, I’m fully aware of the level of talent at that level ( way above mine). For you to down speak a state champion (which you are not) is completely asinine. You’ve shown what type of person you are, many times on this site. I can’t fathom why anyone would listen to anything you have to say.

I would like to be the shot that Fred Bear was (I’m not) but moreover, I’d like to be the kind of man Fred Bear was. But, I do have one thing in my favor, I’m not like you.

No one has mentioned that Bear and Hill started out shooting wood arrows. Everyone knows it isn't a good idea to bare shaft wood because you run a good chance of breaking them in the target.

"it isn't a good idea to bare shaft wood because you run a good chance of breaking them in the target."

That really isn't true if you have an understanding of the dynamic reaction of a particular spine when you select your arrows. In order for a wooden shaft to be so mismatched that it hits the target at an aggressive enough angle to break it has to be pretty far off. Wooden arrows are among the most forgiving of spine of any arrow material available with fiberglass being a close 2nd.

Thanks Craig

Nemo, Sunset and grizz X2.

^^^^^ Yes sir.

Nemo, Sunset, Grizz AND Tradmt X3

I have no idea if they bare shafted or not and don't care in the least. Bear and Hill seemed to do well enough without it and I doubt anybody did it much when they were actively shooting anyway. Lord some people amaze me with their disrespect for others in the past. Viper you are wrong about Bear being a poor shot. I stood on a shooting line twice with him in Gainesville at their old field archery club years back when Bear Archery had just moved there. He came out to shoot a few arrows, not compete. He was darn good, better than me for sure and yes I was a state champion then and many times later as well. Managed a few titles, over the years even had a lot of experience in national and twice in international competition as well as qualified for the Olympic trials twice. Did not make the team but was no where near the bottom either so I think I might know the difference between a darn good archer and someone who just promoted himself and Bear was good. If you never had a chance to shoot with him you have no right to judge him because you really don't know. There are in my experience a lot of very good archers out there who have never won major shoots at any level because that was not there thing. It did not make them any less skillful. So much arrogance today from the safety of a key board, sad.

Well,as the op got everyone arguing. Mission accomplished.

Well,as the op got everyone arguing. Mission accomplished.

True but we were the ones who answered .

I would think once they had the spine that matched their setup,there was no need to bareshaft. I started in the mid 70s and never heard of bareshafting until few years ago. Not saying it's necessary to bareshaft or not but I have always picked a spine that was close and shot the arrow with feathers and check the results of the flight of the arrow.

I like Babysaph, he may stir the pot but at least he's not an arrogant jerk.

Nobody forces anyone here to read or comment on any thread including his.

If internet posts upset anyone that much I'd say they better toughen up a little in my opinion. No disrespect meant to anyone.

I thought bareshafting was how babies were made.

For those that might be interested Jason at ( traditional bowhunting wilderness podcast ) on YouTube just put out a video about light weight bows for hunting . He indirectly addresses a lot of the content here. Worth a watch.

Ive been shooting a bow since 1973... self taught, READING books. I have never bare shafted in my life. Not kidding. I would think those guy's never did either. Using spine testers, arrow charts, large feathers, etc..is what it was back in the days before the computer. Just my opinion since you asked. Thanks

tradmt X 2

I thought this was about bare shafting. Like I said I never read or knew of HH bare shafting arrows. Maybe he figured like most of us, if you add feathers and a bh and it flies true your good to go. Don't know if Bear did it either but maybe in researching arrow material he might have tried it but don't know. I do know they were both pretty darn good archers though. As for the rest of it, it has nothing to do with bare shafting arrows or if Hill/Bear did or didn't do it. Just sayin

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