Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Thoughts on sub-10 gpp

Messages posted to thread:
Jarhead 12-May-22
Corax_latrans 12-May-22
Brian waters 12-May-22
Wudstix 12-May-22
fdp 12-May-22
Stix 12-May-22
grizz 12-May-22
GUTPILEPA 12-May-22
Jarhead 12-May-22
Viper 12-May-22
RonP 12-May-22
JusPassin 12-May-22
George D. Stout 12-May-22
Rick Barbee 12-May-22
Linecutter 12-May-22
Babysaph 12-May-22
Babysaph 12-May-22
fdp 12-May-22
Wudstix 12-May-22
RonP 12-May-22
Kanati 12-May-22
Chairman 12-May-22
Flntknp17 12-May-22
bradsmith2010santafe 12-May-22
Wudstix 12-May-22
Kisatchie 12-May-22
bradsmith2010santafe 12-May-22
Bill Rickvalsky 12-May-22
M60gunner 12-May-22
1buckurout 12-May-22
Wudstix 12-May-22
babysaph 12-May-22
Blue Duck 12-May-22
AK Pathfinder 12-May-22
Mike E 12-May-22
BigB 13-May-22
Supernaut 13-May-22
bluesman 13-May-22
Supernaut 13-May-22
Jeff Durnell 13-May-22
bluesman 13-May-22
bluesman 13-May-22
Supernaut 13-May-22
Popester 13-May-22
BigJim 13-May-22
Mike E 13-May-22
Smokey 13-May-22
Rick Barbee 13-May-22
Nemophilist 13-May-22
Therifleman 13-May-22
Kanati 13-May-22
Pdiddly2 13-May-22
Nemophilist 13-May-22
Nemophilist 13-May-22
Nemophilist 13-May-22
Babysaph 13-May-22
Babysaph 13-May-22
Babysaph 13-May-22
TGbow 13-May-22
babysaph 13-May-22
Corax_latrans 13-May-22
grizz 14-May-22
Shawn 14-May-22
M60gunner 14-May-22
GUTPILEPA 14-May-22
Jegs.mi 14-May-22
Beendare 14-May-22
Corax_latrans 14-May-22
Mike E 15-May-22
Harleywriter 15-May-22
babysaph 15-May-22
fdp 15-May-22
W.B. 15-May-22
Draven 15-May-22
From: Jarhead
Date: 12-May-22




Any bows purpose built for lighter arrows?

I shoot Asbell style - cant my bow and get my right eye directly over the arrow. All I gotta worry about is elevation. So... it really makes shooting a fast bow handy because 200 fps makes up for my left hands poor ability to estimated elevation/range.

I normally shoot my Jack Kempf Wild Cat at around 11 gpp... and it's still incredibly fast. Today I tried a lighter arrow - was around 9 gpp and oh my was I hammering. I'm not sure I've ever done so well between 25-35 yards.

I guess I need to call Jack today and ask him how he feels about sub-10 gpp. I know my Salukis don't really mind light arrows. Any other bow do well with light arrows? Any thoughts on materials/design/process that makes bows tolerate light arrows better or worse?

Thanks in advance - Jar

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 12-May-22




If you are getting 200 ft./s at anything over 9 GPP, you must have the wingspan of a condor!

I shoot mostly about 8 1/2, simply because I think that’s heavy enough for hunting, and I don’t wanna spend all year teaching my brain something then it’s gonna have to unlearn for a couple of months out of the year.

From: Brian waters
Date: 12-May-22




Ive always been a firm beleiver that the bow will talk to ya if you know how to listen. Too much hand shock, too lighta arrow. Not being able to reach 30ish yards, too heavy a arrow. String material and bh also come into play. I usually run a high bh, and bcyx string. I keep a large aray of arrows as a test kit, anywhere between 5.0-11gpi. Im a hunter that loves 3d, so i shoot a light arrow for target and heavier for hunting but theres no exact science to my method. Im known as an ilf guy, but i do have longbows,recurves and recently a self bow i was gifted that i also play and hunt with.

From: Wudstix Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 12-May-22




I have shot as light as 9++ gpp on occasion. From heavyish bows. (63-70#) Primarily, though I shoot 11-13 gpp. I personally, wouldn't be concerned for the bow until I got below 7-8 gpp, but bow noise is usually too great at that weight anyway.

From: fdp
Date: 12-May-22




People been shooting less than 10grs. per pound for years and years. Factory makers used to dry fire bows 1,000's of times to see how durable they were.

Fred Bear was a proponent of the "rule of 9's" but his reasoning was related more to arrow penetration than any fear of damaging the bow.

http://tmuss.tripod.com/shotfrompast/bear.htm

It's just all about what one wishes to do and there are nearly as many differing opinions on the subject as there are folks to give them.

I've shot arrows as light as 6grs. per pound out of many different types of bows with no problems at all.

From: Stix
Date: 12-May-22




I'm at 8gpp on my black hunters. IIRC the mfg stated nothing less that 6 gpp.

50# bow at my draw, 400 grain total arrow weight.

From: grizz
Date: 12-May-22




I draw the line at 9gpp . But my focus is totally on hunting. When I shot heavy bows I had no problems slipping to 8.5 or so but now in the 40 to 50# range, I want 9 to 11gpp. If I still shot target and 3D , I’d have no worries at 8gpp. I think our bows are tuffer than many give credit for.

From: GUTPILEPA
Date: 12-May-22




I’m also a 8gpp on all my bows and never had a penetration issue

From: Jarhead
Date: 12-May-22




I don't know about a condor... but I pull 30 and gravitate toward quick bows. If they don't get 190 at 10 gpp... they usually find their way to the sale barn.

From: Viper
Date: 12-May-22




Jar -

Any ILF bow out there will handle 7 gpp all day long without breaking a sweat. With a bow built in a guy's basement, all bets are off.

Viper out.

From: RonP
Date: 12-May-22




i seldom start with a gpp in mind. seems after they are tuned to my satisfaction, they end up in the 9-10 gpp range. that's just the way it's worked out for me.

the few times i intentionally tried building a heavy arrow (> 11gpp), i did not care for the speed, trajectory and had a hard time tuning.

as for arrows i consider unusually light weight (< 8gpp), i found them and the bow to be too noisy for my liking.

i recall one set-up where the gpp was just less than 9 and the bow and i liked it.

From: JusPassin
Date: 12-May-22




My own thoughts are that 10 gpp is just some magic number that has very little meaning for me. Most of my arrows/bow combinations I hunt with are closer to 8 and when shooting 3d down around 7. Been doing it that way for over 50 years.

From: George D. Stout
Date: 12-May-22




People were killing big game, and very big game for years just shooting arrows spined for their bow. No one was really thinking about arrow weight, per se, because that was simply whatever it was relative to material and spine of the arrow..along with length of an arrow. To be honest, I would never buy a bow from a bowyer who fussed about shooting 8 gpp or even a bit lower. Even Chinese bows, ILF in particular, will handle down to 5 gpp without failure.

The problem these days is a lack of knowledge about archery history and what has been used for decades, or even centuries. Mostly, before ultralight carbons came on the scene, wood or aluminum, or even fiberglass arrows didn't pose any problems since they normally had built-in mass. There were exceptions though, like a 2213 that many hunters used up to bows in the 60 pound range, and those would put you closer to the 8 gpp area.

If you spend 1000.00 for a bow that isn't warranted down to 8 gpp, then I question why you would even buy it in the first place. I don't ever remember Bear, Wing, Pearson or Shakespeare, etc., warning of arrows too light for their manufactured bows. Modern bows should be plenty durable to handle it. If not, buy a Samick, they'll handle it. :)

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 12-May-22




I like to be right in the middle between 9 & 10 gpp.

Rick

From: Linecutter
Date: 12-May-22




George you mentioned 2213's. I imagine you've seen this, guys shooting overdraws on compound bows with wood limbs shooting near 70 pounds shooting those 2213's. I would guess they were shooting about 5 gpp. Those thin walled aluminum's didn't last to long and some times the bows didn't either.

I was told years ago 8-10 gpp was an acceptable hunting weight arrow. Today for what ever reason some think it needs to be 10 gpp or over. As mentioned previously the lighter weight arrows do not absorb as much of the bows energy, so the bow will be a little louder at the shot. DANNY

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 12-May-22




Lots of bows are made in basements the same way custom bowyers make em. It really isn’t rocket science. Wood, glass and glue. If a guy can’t glue a bow correctly it will come apart no matter how much the arrow weighs.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 12-May-22




Damon Howatt says you must shoot 10 grains per pound off of their bows

From: fdp
Date: 12-May-22

fdp's embedded Photo



^^^^^^Yep, saw that on their website^^^^^^ Won't be buying one of those.

From: Wudstix Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 12-May-22




With my arrow materials at 28-29" and 3 blade broadheads I shoot, it is hard to get below 10 gpp.

From: RonP
Date: 12-May-22




50 x 11 = 550 ??

10gpp or 11gpp?

From: Kanati
Date: 12-May-22




Black Widow says 9-12 on their bows.

From: Chairman
Date: 12-May-22




George said as well as an be, this nouveau crop of single string shooters believes they now have all the answers. It’s ok in a couple decades they will be saying the same of a younger generation. The fact is getting below 10 gpp with average weight bows (45-55) is not easy without more expensive arrows and components so for me it is mostly a nonissue especially with wood arrows.

From: Flntknp17
Date: 12-May-22




I have rarely (if ever) been as high as 10GPP in my almost 30 years of hunting traditional. I hunt deer, turkeys, and black bears....none of which are particularly hard targets to penetrate and simply having a very sharp broadhead has always been plenty good. The only times I have bumped up my weight intentionally was for moose hunting. I typically hunt with ILF bows, particularly with limbs that were designed for FITA type target shooting. These limbs are designed from the ground up for using very light arrows when outdoor target shooting and light arrows will not harm them in the least when tuned correctly. As was said above, the take home message is that the bow will tell you when something is wrong...get the right tune and you'll see the bow will be much quieter and happier even with light arrows since all the energy leaves with the arrow. I see no downside to arrows under 10GPP for the game that 95% of us are hunting.

Matt

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 12-May-22




shoot what works,,no need to ask

From: Wudstix Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 12-May-22




Many of my raw wood shafts are at 10 gpp, without stain, cresting, feathers or broadhead. I don't think to 3-5 fps gained for lighter arrows is that much to fuss about.

From: Kisatchie
Date: 12-May-22




I wouldn’t own a bow that required 10 gpp to keep from voiding the warranty. If you look back to when most people shot wood PO cedar mostly. You’d see no one was shooting 12-14 gpp more like 7-9. Broadheads were usually 125-135 grains and everyone was satisfied. This 300 grain broadheads and 14gpp is the new fad, completely unnecessary for the game most people hunt.

One thing I can’t understand a 450 grain arrow is considered optimal for a 45 # bow and hunting arrow, then why would the same weight arrow be less so with 55-60#? Same arrow just moving much faster, don’t think the deer will complain?

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 12-May-22




i shot a 65# bow with 450 grain arrows, it was effective,, if the bow had liked heavier arrow i would have shot that, what ever arrow shoots best,,, I just go with that,, I have killed some hogs with 70 # bow shooting 700 grain arrow woked great,, also 1200 grain arrow, to see, it worked well too,, just depends on the set up and what you want to do, bows and arrows are deadly with lots of different combinations,,

From: Bill Rickvalsky
Date: 12-May-22




Just to see where I stand in this discussion I went to the calculator. I shoot wood arrows most of the time. I am currently shooting a 40# bow. My POC arrows average 510 grains. That puts them at 12.75 grains per pound. I also have some ash arrows that average 625 grains. That puts them at 15.62 grains per pound.

I didn't set those arrows up with any particular gpp as a goal. The ash arrows are about as durable as an arrow can be. The POC will not stand up quite as well. But both types of arrows are quiet in my bow. I have never been a speed freak. Nor have I ever been concerned about penetration with any arrow I have used. I just shoot wood arrows most of the time and these arrows shoot well in my bow. That's pretty much all that matters.

I do have some aluminum arrows that come in at lower weights but they are backups. Don't know the gpp. Didn't know the gpp on my wood arrows until I just ran the numbers. Didn't really care.

From: M60gunner
Date: 12-May-22




Let’s face it, it’s the Ashby syndrome. Until he and his “report” came out I can’t recall any huppa about arrows having to weight a certain amount. We also seem to forget he was hunting African big game . It’s like telling an old rifle hunter his 30-30 isn’t enough for the Deer he’s killed for years. But, it peaks the interest of “hunters” just like the compound peaked their interest back in the 70’s.

From: 1buckurout
Date: 12-May-22




I've asked this a dozen times in different threads and have yet to get an answer.

In what decade did 10 gpp become a light arrow?

From: Wudstix Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 12-May-22




10-13 gpp is standard for the range of bows I shoot. My Kota D- Shape 70# longbow likes 12.7 gpp for big Texas boars.

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 12-May-22




Good point M60 and 1buck.

From: Blue Duck
Date: 12-May-22




I’m at 9-10 on vintage bows.

From: AK Pathfinder
Date: 12-May-22




I've been shooting 6 GPP out of my "built in some guys basement" bow for some time now. Some guys are trying too hard to manufacture a problem.

From: Mike E
Date: 12-May-22




20 years ago 8 grns. was the way to go. Regarding Howatts inability to do 4th grad math it might be a good idea to stay from them anyway. $1000-1400 or whatever for a BW and your warranty is voided for less than 10 grn weight doesn't seem to bode well either. Do these companies also have string material restrictions?

From: BigB Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 13-May-22




I am at 8.7777777 grns for my 45# 3D bow and I shoot 10.42 on my 46# hunting bow and 9.4 on my other hunting bow. But for whitetail I wouldn't thing twice about using the 8.7. Sharp broadhead and arrow placement are the 2 most important things.

From: Supernaut
Date: 13-May-22




If So & So Archery Company requires a minimum of xx grains to be shot form their bows or it will void their warranty, how exactly is it that the So & So Archery Company is going to be able to verify that you shot less than their required xx grains if your bow breaks?

Are they going to come and confiscate your arrows? Surely So & So Archery Company realizes that there is really no way to prove that you shot less than xx grains out of the bow unless I'm missing something.

I guess So & So Archery Company has to cover their ass but it seems to me that all it does is turn some customers away because unfortunately most people aren't honest enough to say, "Yeah, I shot below xx grains even though you said not to".

From: bluesman
Date: 13-May-22




I use about a 600 grain arrow in almost all my bows . Regardless of poundage . My heaviest bows were 65 # . Lightest about 49 # . I used to shoot out to 35 yards hunting . I did this when I had aces to a ranch whet there was a ground squirrel problem and I shot twice a week at the pests at tons of varied distances . That practice enabled me to shoot very well and I got to know my arrows and distances . Now I limit myself to 25 yards and prefer 20 yards and in.

I like heavy arrows as they are quiet which to me trumps speed . Penetration , and quiet . Accuracy is in the person behind the arrow .

Practice with what you intend to hunt with .

Using light arrow weight for 3D and switching to heavier arrows to hunt is not a good idea .

Hardly anyone has mentioned that heavier arrows are generally quieter . To me that is a big deal, as a prey species is more apt to react to a louder noise and move before the arrow gets there .

From: Supernaut
Date: 13-May-22




In other words, I think these bow manufacturers that say you can't shoot below a certain grain out of their bows or it will void their warranty are shooting themselves in the foot.

They are turning off customers who say, "I'm not buying a bow that can't shoot below xx grains" especially since it seems illogical that they could prove someone did shoot below xx grains.

From: Jeff Durnell
Date: 13-May-22




Seems like it's working the way they want.

From: bluesman
Date: 13-May-22




Sorry for spelling , wish we could edit . Have to proof read before you type I guess .

From: bluesman
Date: 13-May-22




JArhead I know you hunt a lot from your posts . I personally want a quiet bow and the heavier arrows do quiet a bow down . Heavier arrows seem to drop more past that 25 yard mark .

Good luck this fall .

From: Supernaut
Date: 13-May-22




I reckon so Jeff.

From: Popester
Date: 13-May-22




Thanks for sharing that article, Frank. I thought the numbers were pretty interesting.

From: BigJim Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 13-May-22
BigJim is a Stickbow.com Sponsor - Website




One very common problem is that a high percentage of the shooters out there don't have a clue and are just shooting arrows down range. Most bows stay together even when they shouldn't, but repeated hammering of bows with ultra light arrows is likely to take a toll in time.

I have no problem with 8gpp out of mine, but shoot 10 because it is more pleasant to shoot and makes the bow quieter. Besides, if I can't shoot 10gpp accurately, I doubt I could shoot 8gpp accurately either and suspect it is the same for most anyone else.

You want to pick up speed? come back to full draw.. stand up straighter and increase your draw. Oops, you can't shoot accurately that way? but 1 or 2 gpp is going to make the difference?

Doesn't matter to me how others shoot. I also know that few people really follow advice either.

If you are interested, I can tell you how you can get over 300fps too.

BigJim

From: Mike E
Date: 13-May-22




None of it really matters to me I shoot 43lb ASL's and 520+ gr. Fir shafts. But I'll bite Jim, how can they get 300 fps.

From: Smokey
Date: 13-May-22




IME,it’s harder to get a arrow that tunes to your bow under 10gpp no matter the draw weight or arrow material and I suppose it’s been that way for decades.But could see it may be possible if a person’s draw length is under 28” but then again it could be just the opposite.

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 13-May-22




I used to shoot what we thought was a little under 6.2 gpp all the time, but the arrows still weighed 605gr.

Found out later (years later), that the bow was a bit heavier draw weight than what we thought, so it wound up being a little under 5.8 gpp for all those years. Still have that bow, and other than field/battle scars it's still in as good a shape, and shoots as good as it did when brand new.

Those were the good old days. Nothing flesh & blood would stop those arrows.

Now days with somewhat lighter draw weights, I really like the penetration I get being between 9 - 10 gpp.

Rick

From: Nemophilist
Date: 13-May-22

Nemophilist's embedded Photo



I shoot between 9gpp and 10gpp arrows from all my bows and have for 53 years. My bows shoot quieter, and I have had no problems with penetration. This year I'll be bowhunting with my 1971 Bear Super Magnum (55#@28") with either German Spruce arrows (515gr/9.36gpp), or with Aluminum Arrows (520gr/9.45gpp).

From: Therifleman
Date: 13-May-22




Don't have much experience with sub 10 gpp arrows. In my world 10gpp is a light arrow, just from the standpoint that I've always used between 11-13gpp. I shoot bows in the lower 40# range. An 8gpp arrow never appealed to me because I want a finished arrow heavier than 320 grains. I shoot the same rig for 3d that I hunt with and balance arrow set ups so that my speeds are in low to mid 160s, which for me usually means right around 11 gpp. I've learned the trajectory so shots out to 30 yards (most of our 3d shoots) aren't a problem. I do find shots beyond 25 yards when I'm around the 13 gpp mark as distance errors are more evident. It sounds like 9gpp is really working for you which is what matters. As far as penetration is concerned, Rick Barbee has put a lot of research into this and I believe his results.

From: Kanati
Date: 13-May-22




Frank love the Bear camo!

From: Pdiddly2
Date: 13-May-22




I'll never resort to using a " heavier" arrow to quiet a bow.

I have bows that are whisper quiet with an 8 gpp arrow. It's all about fine tuning BH and nock height.

What does heavy mean? If my 47# bow is loud with a 1916 does that mean I use a 2016 because it's "heavier"?

If I do that I have to increase point weight a lot because the static spine for a 2016 cut to 28"is far too stiff for a 48# bow...so once I add the point weight to get the dynamic spine adjusted I'm shooting a "heavy arrow" that drops like a stone after 15 yards...and is slow and has the trajectory of a lawn dart.

My observations at the range are that many people using a " heavy arrow" don't adjust for dynamic spine and have the requisite 5.5" feathers on the tail end to try and straighten up the arrow after it comes off the bow sideways, fishtailing downrange. But their bow is somewhat quiet...

From: Nemophilist
Date: 13-May-22




I know what works for me and I know how to tune a bow. 9gpp to 10gpp works for me and I've had no penetration problems on turkeys, hogs, deer, bear, or elk. To each their own.

From: Nemophilist
Date: 13-May-22

Nemophilist's embedded Photo



An interesting article:

Hunting Arrows by Fred Bear

The article by Tom Imler in the December issue of Ye Sylvan Archer is very timely. Modern archery hunting is "on trial" and care should be taken by all those who enjoy this sport to make sure that their equipment is adequate for the game hunted.

Too few archers realize the importance of using a rather heavy arrow for hunting. The growing popularity of field shooting has created a demand for light weight, fast arrows and it is assumed by many archers that the same qualifications are proper for hunting. It is also a more or less common belief that a light arrow traveling fast will have as great killing power as a heavier shaft going at slower speed when both are shot from the same how.

In support then, of Tom Imler's arguments for heavy tackle I would like to submit a chapter dealing with arrows from the manuscript of a book being prepared on Bow Hunting.

"F. L. English conducted a series of tests to determine the striking power of various weights of arrows when shot from a bow having a draw weight of 50 pounds. This being classed as a light weight hunting bow and in as much as only one bow was used it was thought desireable to conduct similar tests using not only arrows of various weights, but bows of varying weights as well.

"Accordingly, a 'bob' was constructed by nailing together 4 pieces of wood resulting in a box 9 inches square and 15 inches long, open at both ends. This was filled with pieces of corrugated paper cut into squares which were kept in place by narrow slats nailed across the top and bottom of the ends leaving a sufficient amount of corrugated paper exposed to receive the arrows.

"This bob was suspended, pendulum fashion, from 4 wires running to the ceiling (about 10 feet). A light weight wire 'whisker' with a small piece of pencil lead attached was hinged to the back end so that it had a vertical travel only. The pencil end rested on a piece of graph paper just slightly below and back of the bob.

"Six arrows were made weighing 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, and 800 grains each. All shooting was done from a machine so that the draw and loose would be exactly the same for each shot,

"Eight bows, varying in weight from 45 to 68 pounds were used.

"The six arrows were shot from each bow and the performance of each recorded. The results were then grouped for each arrow weight, added together and divided by 8 to give averages which revealed the following.

"The 400 grain arrow struck 20 per cent harder than the 300 grain, the 500 45 per cent, the 600 66 per cent, the 700 82 per cent the 800 100 per cent.

"In order that the reader may more completely comprehend the startling results revealed by these experiments, figure 1 shows a chart indicating the findings for each different combination.

"A study of this will show the striking force of a 500 grain arrow shot from a 61 pound bow to be less than l per cent greater than a 600 grain arrow shot from a 45 pound bow. Also that a 68 pound bow with 500 grain arrow strikes less than 3 per cent harder than a 52 pound bow with a 600 grain arrow.

"The reason for this difference, of course, is because the light arrow does not absorb nearly as much of the energy of the bow as does the heavy one.

"To the casual observer it may seem that the recommendations as to bow weights in the chapter dealing with bows should not have been made, as arrow weight has a greater bearing on killing power. This would be true perhaps, if it were not necessary, from an accuracy standpoint, to establish a definite relationship between bow weight and arrow weight. A good rule to follow in this respect is to select arrows that are not heavier in grains than your bow weight with a cipher added to it, and not lighter than 10 per cent less. As an example, in choosing hunting arrows for a 60 puund bow you simply add a cipher to the 60 which allows a maximum arrow weight of 600 grains and a minimum of 540 grains.

"Arrows that are heavier than this ratio will most likely have too high a trajectory and for this reason will be difficult to shoot accurately cxcept at close range. If much lighter than the above recommendations they may lack sufficient killing power for large game and, under hunting conditions, be less accurate.

"Lightweight arrows are more inaccurate under hunting conditions because they are not as stable as the heavier shafts. Hunting shots differ from practice or field shooting. In the former it is the first shot that counts most because, in many instances, an opportunity for a second shot does not occur.

"Upon that first shot therefore hinges your success or failure and it is here that the heavier shaft will aid your accuracy. Being less sensitive to correct loose and form which, you may rest assured will not be at its best, your chances of scoring a hit are much better and you are more certain to get your trophy.

"It might be well to mention again, as in the chapter under bows, that a deer can be killed with most any combination if no heavy bones are struck but what is needed is some thing that will crash through where the going is tough.

"Some archers will take exception to these recommended arrow weights, arguing that the heavier shafts, because or their faster drop will greatly affect the accuracy. It is the opinion of the writer, backed by many of the most successful archer hunters that, in-as-much as very little game is killed with a bow beyond 40 yards, the more stable shooting qualities of heavier shafts will more than compensate for any loss of accuracy due to a greater drop. And you will recover many trophies that might otherwise escape wounded,

"It is not necessary to construct a hob to arrive at this conclusion. Watch how a heavy bow rocks a target or try to shoot light weight blunts through a board.

"The heavier arrows with their additional penetrating power are more likely to pass entirely through large and heavy game animals. Experience has proven that deer will go further if they carry the arrow with them than they will if it clears the body. The logical reason for this is that the arrow frightens them. The sharp blade is felt at each movement and, with the brightly colored shaft and feathers protruding from their body, it might easily be imagined that some strange creature were clinging to their body and clawing at their 'innards'. In this frantic condition they will run until the very last heartbeat and you may not locate your game unless tracking conditions are good.

"On the other hand, the swift almost silent passage of an arrow thru the body will, in most cases, have the same effect as a pain and sick feeling in the stomach would to you or me. A sensible reaction would be to lie down at the first convenient place you could find. Animals will do this too and if not pursued at once will he found within a short distance from where they were hit.

"It is true that a protruding arrow will cause additional cutting when the rear end comes in contact with trees and bushes. This will hasten death. However, it may, also lengthen the distance to your trophy as much as five times."

The majority of archers in this area do use heavy equipment although our interpretation of the word as applied to hunting equipment means bows 65 to 70 pounds.

I go along with Tom all the way with the exception of his statement that "most normal men can use a 70 to 80 pound how with ease."

If this figure had been 60 to 70 pounds it would, in my opinion, be nearly right.

Most men do not have the bone structure to support muscular development necessary to shoot bows of more than this weight with ease. While many could work into the 80 pound class and some to the 90 or 100, few have the time to devote to this task.

There is absolutely no question but that the really heavy bows do pack a tremendous wallop; and bows, unlikc guns, can never be too heavy for the archer.

So, in establishing minimum bow weights for game no larger than deer, let us not place them so high as to discourage the archer hunter who does not have quite so much hair on his chest, or those who do not have enough time to devote to this muscular build-up.

It is entirely another question if one plans to tangle with the big bears, moose, large boar and such game, but the largest game that the majority of archers will ever have occasion to shoot at are deer and, very occasionally, black bear.

Don't get me wrong, there is definitely no substitute for heavy bows and heavy arrows. A light weight arrow traveling faster will not bring the desired results. But let us not insist that moose tackle be used for deer and that nothing less will suffice.

From: Nemophilist
Date: 13-May-22

Nemophilist's embedded Photo



Fred Bear on Arrows

Your next heading here is “arrows and broadheads.” I draw 28 inches, and my arrows are 29 inches with either the blunt field point or the broadhead attached to it, so in the case of the broadhead, I have an inch to the back of the head at my full draw length.

I am not concerned about whether my feathers are left- or right- handed, but I do like a helical fletch and I like a very large feather. I’ve never shot other than three-fletch arrows. I’m sure four-fletch has advantages. I think that they can be cut lower and stand up under wet weather probably better than three-fletch, although I’ve never used them. My fletching is 5 inches long and begins 1 1/4 inches from the very end of the nock. They are spirally fletched so that the shaft revolves in flight. Never use straight fletching on hunting arrows.

I have no particular color preference on fletching, except that I’m often making a film in which it is very important in having the camera follow the flight of the arrow. For this reason I have used rather bright-colored feathers—white and yellows, maybe with a black cock feather for a contrast, and, for some reason, my arrows are never camouflaged. The last three years I’ve been using Converta-Point Magnum® arrows, of course, and they are aluminum. This is a handicap in the woods, there’s no question about it, but it’s one of the things you have to put up with when you are in the filming business. (Author’s note: These were the “new” arrows we had introduced in our 1968 Bear Archery catalog. A special insert was designed for use with broadheads, and there were blunt, field and target points as a part of this new system, so that the archer could use the same arrow shaft and simply interchange the points for practice, hunting or field use. The shafts were especially made for us by Easton. Fred came up with this system and filed for the patent on Nov. 2, 1966, and the patent #3,401,938 was granted on Sept. 17, 1968.)

I do not use any preparation on the feathers to keep them dry. I use a plastic bag pulled over the arrows when they are in the bow quiver and held in place with a rubber band. This, of course, sometimes is a handicap, also, because if you are surprised by game it’s pretty difficult to pull this bag off without making a little rattling sound, but I’ve never found a waterproof fletching material that stood up under very much rain. (Author’s note: This was written before we introduced our Weathers®, all- weather plastic fletching material, but Fred continued to use real feathers even after we had done so.) Naturally, I don’t fletch my own arrows, and I use the Razorhead® (the Bear Razorhead, if you’ll permit me), and I always use the insert even in shooting an elephant … and there’s a reason for this. The insert opens up an “X” hole and gives better penetration because it relieves pinching on the shaft and leaves a better blood trail. I use a Razorhead® with the insert for all kinds of game. Makes no difference the weight of the bow or the size of the game.

As I said before, I like an arrow that is nine times my bow weight in grains. Penetration is a matter of kinetic energy, and it is a well-known fact that a heavy object moving at the same speed is much harder to stop than a lighter one. There’s another factor in the case of an arrow. A given bow has a certain, I’ll call it “quickness,” of return to the string from a full-draw position. A heavy bow can handle a heavier arrow with a great deal more striking energy.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 13-May-22




My Easton axis 28 inches long with 125 point is 380 grains. So my with my 47 lb bow at my draw is 8 grains per inch grains. That is a no no .

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 13-May-22




My Easton axis 28 inches long with 125 point is 380 grains. So my with my 47 lb bow at my draw is 8 grains per inch grains. That is a no no . Grains per pound I mean

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 13-May-22




I thought the same thing Supernaut. They just wouldn’t honor their warranty saying you must have used a light arrow.

From: TGbow
Date: 13-May-22




Lots of game have been killed with less than 10 grains per lb. I've always went by how the arrow flies and how the bow feels. I never liked to hunt with anything under 9 grains per lb simply for the noise factor. You don't have to shoot a log to kill game.

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 13-May-22




I agree TG.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 13-May-22




“shot a 65# bow with 450 grain arrows, it was effective,, if the bow had liked heavier arrow i would have shot that”…

JMO… if 450 grains is “heavy enough” at #45, it ain’t gonna bounce off moving 10%-20% faster. It’s not like bullets that fragment & fail to penetrate when you push them too fast.

From: grizz
Date: 14-May-22

grizz's embedded Photo



I knew 9gpp was enough.

From: Shawn
Date: 14-May-22




Never really thought about it!!! 10 gpp is not needed in any of the game I would hunt. Even out of light weight bows, say 40#s 8.5 to 9 is more than enough. Now maybe if I hunted moose or other larger critters I would shoot more gpp. I actually like right around 8.5 and it has killed plenty even out of my 40-45# recurves. Shawn

From: M60gunner
Date: 14-May-22




I never owned a scale until the carbon arrows came around. Then agian it wasn’t until carbons came along did “bareshafting “ become a must.

From: GUTPILEPA
Date: 14-May-22




Exactly Corax!!!

From: Jegs.mi Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 14-May-22




When I first started shooting I was told you want about 10gr per pound. So that is what I shoot plus or minus 1 grain per pound. It works for the arrows and heads I like. I don't shoot over 25 yard's when I'm hunting. I'm sure you could use a different setup but it works for me.

From: Beendare
Date: 14-May-22




I just went through this debate with myself. 31” DL here.

My 47#/553g arrow is quiet and blows through everything inc a moose last year…10 critters out of 12 complete pass throughs.

BUT

My 20y gap is pretty big- 1 1/4” with a PO of 45y. I went to SFO and limbs that is between 52 and 54 pounds with rocket ship Uukha SX80 limbs. I was trying to get a shorter point on with smaller gaps at 20 yards. The two set ups that tune for me;32” + with 100g, and 31” w 125g.

One would think that the 32 inch arrow would’ve had much smaller gap at 20 but the difference was negligible. I liked the 125 better than the 100 because there was less chance of lift off on the rest at full draw, the arrow just felt better.

My 31” arrows std insert, 125g come in right at 9gpp, 487g. I think it’s going to be a winner.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 14-May-22




Yep, and there’s a lot of freedom in that, isn’t there?

I suppose maybe if you were to combine a lightweight carbon shaft with 100 grain points or something like that, you could probably drop down out of the “anything useful” range. But if you figure 28 inches at seven GPI plus maybe a dozen for the insert and 100 grains for the point and 10 for the knock and maybe another 12 for the fletching… You’re still up over 300, which is…. let’s say 8GPP for a 40 pound bow.

That probably wouldn’t be my first choice for hunting, but on the other hand… I sure wouldn’t want to stand in front of that if it were tipped with a good Broadhead.

So I think the reason MOST people started paying attention to GPP is simply that with the advent of carbon, it became possible to build an arrow that was simply not as heavy as a Hunting Arrow really probably ought to be. Obviously, people like Fred bear were paying attention along time ago and long before Carmen came on to the scene, but for most people, probably just about anything would work fine as long as it would tune, so I guess that was where they turned their attention. Makes sense to me.

From: Mike E
Date: 15-May-22




Take a baseball and throw it as hard as you can then take a whiffle ball and throw it as hard as you can. Which one is going to stress your arm more. I wouldn't think 8 gr. would hurt a bows limbs, the point that Howatt and Widow are making is that the lighter the weight of the arrow is the closer you come to a dry fire.

From: Harleywriter
Date: 15-May-22




M60 said a mouthful re Ashby report.

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 15-May-22




I agree you are closer to a dry fire with a lighter arrow. Are you willing to get real close? maybe that is why guys are having bows come apart on em now. I always like to dry fire a bow 25 times or so before I buy it. LOL.

From: fdp
Date: 15-May-22




So why would an arrow of 8gpp. be considered inadequate for derr, beats and so on ?

How many people have had a 320gr. arrow bounce off either of these animals ?

How much penetration (in imches) do suppose is required to hit the vitals on a deer ?

From: W.B.
Date: 15-May-22




FYI, Black Widow's warranty is 8gpp minimum, NOT 10gpp. They recommend 9gpp, but it's not a requirement.

At my 57lb draw weight, 8gpp is 456 grains. I'm not sure I could even make a hunting arrow with suitable length and FOC at 8gpp. Even plain Jane 2018s with 125gr heads are 500 grains. My current setup has me at 593 grains, a bit over 10gpp.

From: Draven
Date: 15-May-22




"In what decade did 10 gpp become a light arrow?"

I think the answer is : Not long ago - like a week ago. if you want decade, make 2020s





If you have already registered, please

sign in now

For new registrations

Click Here




Visit Bowsite.com A Traditional Archery Community Become a Sponsor
Stickbow.com © 2003. By using this site you agree to our Terms and Conditions and our Privacy Policy