Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Obstacles to consistency

Messages posted to thread:
Briar 11-May-22
Wudstix 11-May-22
Bill Rickvalsky 11-May-22
2 bears 11-May-22
bradsmith2010santafe 11-May-22
Yellah Nocks 11-May-22
fdp 11-May-22
Wudstix 11-May-22
Beendare 11-May-22
Corax_latrans 11-May-22
Wudstix 11-May-22
the Black Spot 11-May-22
9/10 Broke 11-May-22
Viper 11-May-22
David McLendon 11-May-22
Briar 12-May-22
George D. Stout 12-May-22
fdp 12-May-22
Viper 12-May-22
Missouribreaks 12-May-22
Briar 12-May-22
Viper 12-May-22
George D. Stout 12-May-22
Briar 12-May-22
Viper 13-May-22
neuse 13-May-22
Live2Hunt 13-May-22
Briar 13-May-22
Jegs.mi 13-May-22
Will tell 13-May-22
redbuffalo 13-May-22
redbuffalo 13-May-22
BigB 13-May-22
Verdeburl 13-May-22
Briar 13-May-22
aromakr 13-May-22
Therifleman 13-May-22
Lefty38-55 13-May-22
Onehair 13-May-22
shandorweiss 14-May-22
Briar 14-May-22
Jack Whitmrie jr 14-May-22
Babysaph 14-May-22
shandorweiss 14-May-22
2 bears 14-May-22
Briar 14-May-22
shandorweiss 14-May-22
Briar 14-May-22
babysaph 14-May-22
fishin coyote 15-May-22
Briar 15-May-22
From: Briar
Date: 11-May-22




I have really worked hard the last few years learning my way out of snap shooting. I developed a draw anchor, aim and release shot sequence i am pretty proud of. It was hard but so worth it.

I shoot ok now but i would like to be more consistent on a day in day out arrow to arrow basis.

What were some obstacles you found in your shooting that were holding you back? In my mind what i am doing feels incredible consistent but the results of the shot show me it isn't. Thanks!

From: Wudstix Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-May-22




I have a habit of zoning out on my second arrow and pulling it left or right depending on if I drop my hand or lift my head. First arrow is usually right on the money, then... 3-4-5-6 are mostly right on top of number one, after I snap back into focus.

From: Bill Rickvalsky
Date: 11-May-22




My personal problem in maintaining consistency is follow through particularly with the bow arm. When I am able to hold my bow arm in place after release I shoot very consistently. But if I start losing focus and following the arrow with my eyes instead of maintaining focus on the spot my bow arm will drift or drop and everything goes bad.

From: 2 bears
Date: 11-May-22




It is all mental for me. If I concentrate on improving any one thing two or three more will fall apart. I Need to be shooting well enough to be on crurze control. That rarely happens. >>>----> Ken

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 11-May-22




just keep working, pay close attention to your first shot no warm up,,thats the shot that reveals the most,, practice every day even if a little,, it has a cumulative effect,, dont be tempted to change when you have a bad day,, just stay with it,,

From: Yellah Nocks
Date: 11-May-22




Agree with the first shot. But I also think repeatability is following close behind. My personal opinion is that the anchor is one of the most neglected things in archery. F the anchor is IDENTICAL from shot to shot, and you are looking down the shaft in whatever method of aim you choose, it is actually hard to be too far off. I like a static release with a relaxed hand and release fingers. In other words, my anchor does not move. Anchor.

From: fdp
Date: 11-May-22




What are you calling "aiming"?

Is the problem an accuracy problem, a consistency problem, a combination of the 2 ?

From: Wudstix Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-May-22




Sounds like I'm not alone. Follow through, stationary bow arm and steady anchor point, all make for consistency.

From: Beendare
Date: 11-May-22




For me, its namely the Grey Matter between my ears.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 11-May-22




I think for most people, it’s about 5 pounds.

From: Wudstix Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 11-May-22




Just got back inside from shooting 7+ dozen arrows with modified AL Kangaroo Crossover glove, had the plastic replaced with Buffalo leather. First arrow of each cluster was always at point of focus, then draw, anchor, release in rapid fire mode. Bow arm stayed up and 7 shot clusters were all @5" from 15+ yards. Mix of 2219 and 2315, 3-4 fletch and different nocks. 2219 with 190 grain tip seem to fly best. All my woodies have broadheads mounted, so were not included in this test. It can be done with focus and follow through.

From: the Black Spot
Date: 11-May-22




I usually get the first two arrows close together. That third one is off as much as two- three inches. Been telling myself on that third arrow this is the “first” one, and it’s helped.

From: 9/10 Broke
Date: 11-May-22




Combination of things but top of the list for me is bow arm follow through. There are other things I feel are equally important but I don’t struggle with those like I do with maintaining a solid bow arm.

From: Viper
Date: 11-May-22




B -

You answered your own question.

What you think you're doing is irrelevant, the ONLY thing that matters is where the arrows end up.

Viper out.

From: David McLendon
Date: 11-May-22




The biggest obstacle is over thinking or thinking at all. Archery is a meditation on precision of motion and selflessness. Might sound weird, but it's true.

From: Briar
Date: 12-May-22




Fdp....i guess it is a little of both. I practice with one arrow. I shoot one..go get it, shoot one, go get it ect. I just feel like everytime i take a shot i am doing exactly the same thing...yet my poi is not the same, and at times quite far off for the range i am shooting at.

I use the arrow tip to aim. I feel like it is being aimed at a very similar spot each shot, yet the results vary enough to make me absolutely nuts at times.

Id like to start working on the variables..i just dont know which variables i am falling short on.

From: George D. Stout
Date: 12-May-22




I found out, over many years, that my biggest obstacle to consistency was that mass between my left and right ear. The problem with many folks, and I'm not saying it applies to you, is they tend to overthink the process and that can create another barrier. Been there and done that.

From: fdp
Date: 12-May-22




Then it sounds like (and remember we can't see you) that you are having in consistency in your alignment.

You can have the point of the arrow pointed at the same spot every time, but if the back of the arrow isn't in the same spot in relation to the point every time you will be inconsistent and you will miss left and right.

You can actually test that for yourself and see the results. If the point of the arrow is on the spot, but the back of the arrow is to the right, because for instance you canted the bow more, or leaned over the arrow more and didn't realign the whole arrow, you will shoot left. Conversely, if the point of the arrow is on the target, and the back of the arrow is to the left, because you held your head up straighter, then the arrow will tend to impact to the right.

That is a foundational feature in Jim Ploen's 'aiming the arrow' shooting process....and it works.

From: Viper
Date: 12-May-22




B -

You have two choices. Work with an instructor (in person) who knows what he's doing or keep doing what you're doing.

Sorry, but the "snap shooting" and "one arrow at a time" are classic ways of never never learning how to shoot.

Your thinking has to change before your shooting will.

Viper out.

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 12-May-22




It is a mental fun game, don't let it get to you. Overthinking the process is the number one curse I have observed in shooters over the past 55 years. Why panic over a target?

From: Briar
Date: 12-May-22




Fdp.

That makes sense...so alignment is something i can work on. Any tips to ensure that is correct?

Viper:

See i had heard a lot that one arrow at a time was the way to go. Ive gotten over that snap shooting and im glad for that. Maybe i can get the wife to film me and see if i can see where im going wrong. Im really not in a position to hire someone and travel to a coach.

From: Viper
Date: 12-May-22




B -

I thought you said you were "snap shooting" in your first post, apologies if I misread. The one arrow thing "may" be something to do for hunting practice, AFTER everything else is working properly. Consistency requires repetition. If you can't stack 5 or 6 arrows in the middle of a target from the same spot, there's no way the one arrow thing is going to help.

Any time I want to shoot, it's a 2 hour drive (round trip), so no sympathy there. You don't need a "coach", just someone who KNOWS what they are doing and can SEE what you are doing. There has to be a range or club you can get to. Every body thinks they can do it on their own, and they can, until they can't. So, the real question become how important is "shooting better" to you? (That's a real question, not just a snarky wise crack.)

BTW - sure "alignment" is important, but your correct alignment (based on age and anatomy) may not be text book. See the problem.

Viper out.

From: George D. Stout
Date: 12-May-22




What Tony said, you don't need a coach, per se, just someone who is consistent and can spend some time with you. If there is a good shooter about, one who is consistent in their accuracy, then that would be a good place to start.

From: Briar
Date: 12-May-22




Tony your always 100...and i appreciate that about you...in this case as usual your 100% correct...how important is it to me...answer...important enough that the investment of time and funds doesn't rob me of the joy of shooting...which is my #1 priority. If i had to drive 4 hours round trip to shoot...the answer is, its not that important and i can accept lesser results to continue to enjoy what im doing. Right or wrong thats where im at.

Perhaps that will change as i continue on, but id like to exhaust my options before i make it something i no longer enjoy, but am better at...done that before with other things and it never ended up being worth it. Appreciate the advice from ALL!!

From: Viper
Date: 13-May-22




B -

You're in PA? There has to be an archery club or range closer than a 4 hour round trip. Heck, even some of the trad "events" might have clinics or seminars.

In lieu of that, then video taping "might" help, but you kinda have to A. know what you're looking at and B.be able to prioritize what needs fixing most.

The other option you might not like, is to put a temporary sight on the bow as a training aid.

Viper out.

From: neuse
Date: 13-May-22




I think that I expend to much thought about aiming that I tend to forget follow through. I guess there is only four or five things to remember about your shot sequence, and yet I manage to forget probably two of those.

From: Live2Hunt
Date: 13-May-22




The comments about overthinking it is a big one. My first shots are the best. Then a flyer, then overthinking. Shooting one arrow at a time I am pretty consistent and get more exercise, LOL. But shooting groups at 20+ yards gets me frustrated.

From: Briar
Date: 13-May-22




I am on the western side of PA right near mercer. Be glad to take a ride to get some feedback!...

Neuse i agree. Its a lot to think about when you have to think about it!

From: Jegs.mi Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 13-May-22




How often do you shoot? For me over thinking can ruin my focus. Worse yet is not practicing.

From: Will tell
Date: 13-May-22




Briar, you have Golden Grain Archery close to your location. They've produced one Olympic Gold Medal winner and a bunch of National Champions. Nows a good time to reach out because it's their slow time of year. I grew up in Mercer and now live in Hermitage and would help but I'd pass on a lot of bad shooting. ??

From: redbuffalo
Date: 13-May-22




Briar, there are a lot of traditional shooters down by Mercer. They have Pine Hill shoot down there in June I think. They also have a group called the Mercer county bowmen.

From: redbuffalo
Date: 13-May-22




Briar, there are a lot of traditional shooters down by Mercer. They have Pine Hill shoot down there in June I think. They also have a group called the Mercer county bowmen.

From: BigB Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 13-May-22




If my brain gets in the way I shoot like crap. Example at the Tennessee Classic I shot horrible on my round that counted as score, then I shot for fun and killed everything I shot at.

From: Verdeburl
Date: 13-May-22




I always say it's a life long journey. My biggest two issues: --When I draw I anchor my thumb knuckle at my jaw bone--I usually just uncurl those fingers slightly keeping that thumb knuckle tight to my jaw. If I move my hand away from my face--shot goes left horrible--I catch myself doing this at times. Then--follow through- -I will sometimes allow my bow arm to relax, or drop slightly and not follow through properly.

From: Briar
Date: 13-May-22




Jegs...i shoot daily. I may miss a day a week but generally im shooting 50 arrows at least a day.

I know where golden grain is. Ive been there a few times. I just dont know if its for me.

Ill have to look into that pine hill shoot. I love the rainbow archers over by franklin and the meadville club. Ive only gone to 3d shoots there and really enjoy that.

From: aromakr Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 13-May-22




Brier:

Let me add a few things to the comments already made. Shooting consistently; I believe you have to clear your mind and concentrate only on the spot you're trying to hit. At that point in time you can't be worrying about form, your total concentration has to be on the intended POI. You have to ingrain your form first, before you start worrying about shooting groups. Its like running, first you learn to crawl, then walk, when you can do that without thinking about it, you can run.

I would start by shooting at a blank bail from 5-8 feet and establish good consistent form first. When you can do that without think about it, shoot for groups.

BOb

From: Therifleman
Date: 13-May-22




Ron, if you want a spot on assessment of your form and execution, take the time to upload it onto YouTube and post it on the Shooters Form forum on TradGang. Arne Moe is very adept at analyzing form issues and will advise in a manner that will help you make improvement.

From: Lefty38-55
Date: 13-May-22




2 things only ...technique and practice!

From: Onehair
Date: 13-May-22




Slowly, Ready..Fire...Aim

From: shandorweiss
Date: 14-May-22

shandorweiss's embedded Photo



What George and others said. It's mostly in the mind. But you have to practice elements of the shot sequence also. Try breaking up your shooting sessions into two parts. In the first part, just focus on 1 or 2 aspects of form, without caring where the arrows go. In the 2nd part, stop thinking and just shoot, and focus on focusing on the target and clearing your mind of everything else.

Just an example, I've found that if I think about my release hand, arrows go right. If I think about the bow arm, arrows go left. And so on. The mind can only really focus on 1 thing at a time.

There are other things to check also. E.g., does your bow grip fit you perfectly? If not it might torque in your hand on some shots and not on others, or in both directions. Is your window's radius (if it has one) centered over the deepest part of the grip? If not put a narrow bump under the plate so it is. Arrows that strike the window too far to the back of the bow will cause torque and/or erratic shooting. And how well matched are your arrows? If the spines are more than 5# apart it will be hard to be consistent. Most of my arrows are within 1-3#. Same with grain weight. I only shoot arrows matched within 10 grains. Sometimes all the same grain, +/- 0 grains. It can make a difference.

Also, you may need to shoot more than 50 arrows a session. Often, I'm just getting warmed up and letting go of thinking with the first 50 arrows. Depends on the day and my mood or mental state. If I stopped after 50 arrows I might be quite disappointed with my shooting. But usually if I go on to 75 or 100 shots, I'm delighted. If you can't shoot that many arrows in a session b/c of time, shoot more arrows from 1 spot before retrieving them. If b/c of bow weight, your bow is too heavy. For practice, at least. Jeff Kavanagh shoots a 65# bow, but for practice a 35# bow. That's 30# lighter! Your shooting will no doubt improve immensely if you practice with a light bow.

The other day I shot this bow, new to me. 64". 33.5# at my draw weight. 40 yards. It took 50-60 shots just to settle in. Total of 88 shots. The results were well worth it. Arrows within 2# and 10 grains. Try it.

From: Briar
Date: 14-May-22




Very very very impressive shandor!! That looks like a lifetime achievement photo for me.

From: Jack Whitmrie jr
Date: 14-May-22




Learning to pick a spot every single time is my greatest challenge after all these years. I'm not a gap shooter, totally instinctive. Yeah I know that gap shooters shoot better, but I can't do it.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 14-May-22




I’m with you Jack.

From: shandorweiss
Date: 14-May-22




Thanks Briar. That is one of the best groups I've done at 40 yards, but slightly less best are common. IF I shoot enough arrows. It's a rare day that I get a great group in under 50 arrows.

From: 2 bears
Date: 14-May-22




Shandor, on a good day has turned in groups like that at 50 yards. He only keeps the magic bows though. I recently got a Bear take down B handle 30 pound # 1 limbs. Maybe I can keep them all on the bale at 40 now. ;^) I would love to shoot with him. Maybe something from him, his arrows, or bows, would be catching. >>>----> Ken

From: Briar
Date: 14-May-22




I think one thing in finding is a precision rear anchor point. I am consistent...i feel but not consistent enough. As was said, head angle, depth of finger in mouth ect all can alter that anchor and that isnt good!!

I tried adding a second point of contact today and my results were immediately better. I didn't have the flyers i was having the past week or so. Time will tell but it had all been a process and ive come really far. The devil seems to be in the details now.

From: shandorweiss
Date: 14-May-22




Ken, hope the new bow is magic for you. But maybe you need #3 limbs with your draw length?

Briar, a trick a friend shared with me to anchor well without thinking about it much. Keep pulling with back tension. If you use back tension properly the anchor will go against your face firmly where it should be. Points of contact are important but so is keeping the hand under tension.

From: Briar
Date: 14-May-22




Thanks shandor!! Ill keep at it!

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 14-May-22




Wow. Never saw shooting like the Shandorweiss.

From: fishin coyote
Date: 15-May-22




Briar, Next time you’re at Meadville if I’m there not working the desk I’ll try to help you out. We also will be having our Traditional only weekend on June 17-19. There will be lots of experience there to give you a hand

From: Briar
Date: 15-May-22




Thank you coyote!! Ill be there in june!!





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