From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Can a working bow be made from this wood?
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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At about .50SG it's a fairly low-density bow wood but if made wide and long enough for the draw weight and length it should do. Should make a beautiful bow.
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From: manybows
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Sumac is supposed to be poison to people.
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From: msinc
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Poison Sumac is a little shrub that is poisonous, "Sumac" is also a tree and the wood is not poisonous. I have to doubt it would make a decent bow wood, it is very light and soft. I am no expert at making bows, but I do know a little about wood and trees. Sumac wood, which I have milled on my sawmill several times has none of the attributes that the typically recognized bow woods have, so I am betting it's a "no"....
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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I think there’s two Different kinds of sumac.Poisonous and nonpoisonous
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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I’m betting on Tim Baker on this one.:) thanks Tim.
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From: msinc
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Yes sir, in fact there are several plants/trees that are referred to as sumac....the poisonous one is pretty rare in most places and, if I remember right it is not even in the sumac family, it just happens to have leaves that look like it. Then there is the smaller tree that gets the clusters of red berries that taste like lemons. I have never had it, but they say you can make a form of lemonade out of it. Then there is the actual tree that grows to a pretty good size and can be used for lumber.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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I don’t remember if this world was talked about in the White wood wars of long ago. But I do remember that some white wood would make a good bow.
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From: msinc
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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You are betting on the wrong team Mr. Lewis....go ahead and try to make a bow out of it and please report back to us how it worked out for you.....it isn't even "pretty" or what most would consider good looking wood.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Doesn’t Tim Baker know a little bit about bow wood and bow Building
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From: msinc
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Not if he tells others that sumac "should make a beautiful bow"......I have probably milled a couple hundred board feet of the stuff and it is not bow wood. That said, have at it, it's your time. Speaking of which, I have wasted my last minute on it.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Thanks for the input Martin. That’s the Reason I asked
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From: Runner
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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It's no bow wood. Visually it can be fairly appealing though.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Is sumac similar to lemon would
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From: Steve Milbocker
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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“Is sumac similar to lemon would” not even close
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From: msinc
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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It is similar to Paulownia and Mimosa, it is in the same family. It is very light weight, very low density, "spongy" might be a good description....the wood has a lot of very large {compared to most woods} open grained "pores". It is considered strong for it's weight {so is Balsa!!!} and it dries out much faster than most other woods. The times I have had folks bring it to my mill I always wondered what they were planning to do with it, wasn't my business, so I didn't ask. It typically has no figure and does have really nice straight grain. Because there are several plant/trees that are referred to as sumac, I have to wonder if there is another variety out where this bow expert guy lives that is different than what's around my neck-o-the-woods.......there is just nothing at all "beautiful" about the sumac I have worked with, M
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From: Jeff Durnell
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Poison sumac is more like a bush if memory serves. Red sumac or staghorn sumac is the small tree that often grows in patches or clusters and has those red, fuzzy Christmas tree shaped berry pods all over it in later summer. It's not poisonous and those pods make a pretty good lemonade that has some health benefits. Just take a pod when it's bright red, grind it up between your hands, discard the seeds and take a lick off your palm. Tastes like unsweetened lemonade powder. I have a batch growing at the edge of my back yard. Just like folks jump to the conclusion that all hemlock is poisonous. Nope. The young needles from the hemlock tree make a fine tea, my favorite, also full of healthy goodness.
Usually, around here at least, sumac dies off before it gets big enough for what I consider decent bow wood size, and I'm not saying some abstract semblence of a light bow absolutely couldn't be made from it to launch an arrow or two, but it seems like quaking aspen to me. You bend it a bit and "snap", she gone. If I get really, really, super bored, maybe I'll try a piece. Been a while since I heard a bow go BANG.
I'd rather use cherry or walnut, got them growing 50 yards away too, and that ain't happenin' either. Been there, done that :^)
Speaking of brushy stuff, ya know what is a pretty wood? And seems resilient and hard? Lilac. I got a piece drying that I'm going to use on a knife handle. Bunch growing right next to the shop. Nothing big enough for a bow though... well not a 'real' bow anyway. I'll have to take a look.
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From: Runner
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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The greenish color of the heartwood can look good. People use it for carving and novelty work.
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From: Chairman
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Light and soft not something I would build a bow out of. By the way it is not poisonous, when I was a kid we would use the red fuzzy berries to boil and make faux lemonade.
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From: fdp
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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"this bow expert guy"....now that's funny.
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From: Runner
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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A little bit funny when he strayed from his lane a little on this one.
JD, Hemlock tree and "Socrates" Hemlock are in no way connected but the name sure confuses people. I think it's more amazing that so many have heard the Socrates story.
Lilac is fantastic bow wood. Some say they would use nothing but that if it grew in a more bow friendly way.
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From: Jeff Durnell
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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I went out back and looked. Only have a few sumac trees left alive, barely alive. About 3" diamwter trunks. Grabbed an outer limb, bent it, and 'snap'. Nice color, greenish like Runner said. Smelled good, spicy. Oddly, the inner 1/4" core was like foam, like when you break a mullen or other fast growing weed in half. Yep, I could see it would carve well, like Catalpa... the 'Bean Tree'.
On the bright side, the wild garlic is coming up! Time to start looking for watercress, ramps, and morels soon too!
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From: Bassmaster
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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It grows in my neighbor's yards. I keep eye balling it to find a piece big enough for a bow. No luck yet. Your saying lilac is fantastic wood. Ever make a bow from it, or is that some thing you read?
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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At the appropriate width and length for its density essentially any wood will make a durable, efficient bow. Sumac is several points denser than black poplar's .39sg, but even poplar can make a fine bow: 50lb @ 30"... 1.5" x 76"
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From: Jeff Durnell
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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I hear ya. My lilac was tall, growing up onto the garage roof. Cut it way back 2 years ago, tried to salvage some for a bow. Wasn't happening. Crooked, twisted, cupped and split while drying, ended up with a single piece for a knife handle. Lol. Better than nothing I guess.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Well there you go. This guy Tim Baker says Sumac will make a good bow. So we have quite a difference in opinions here. Was sumac used in the White wood wars. Back in the day Tim:)?
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From: Runner
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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"Your saying lilac is fantastic wood. Ever make a bow from it, or is that some thing you read?"
Both. First one then the other.
Guys in Europe rave about it.
Exceptionally hard to find anything more than a plains bow type length. My bow was even on the shorter side of that style.
It has to be dried with extreme care.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Hey Tim is that you in that picture?
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From: Runner
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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That's Steve.
Tim, that theory is fine for woods that grow in a manner that allows that. Sumac is not really one of those.
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From: JusPassin
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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There are dozens of varieties of Sumac, so you'd really need to know which one any one person was referring to. They are in the same family as cashews or pistachios.
Here in the midwest they are usually just growing in fence-lines and about 10 to 12 feet tall, maybe 2 inches in diameter.
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From: Runner
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Don, you're falling for Tim's mantra a little hard.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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I thought that was Badger in that picture Pat. But why would Tim lead us a stray. I know the man has forgot more about bow making then most will ever know.
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From: crookedstix
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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I would never try a sumac bow. The stuff grows way too fast; it's soft and weak and has a huge pith chamber down the middle. And good luck finding one big and straight enough to get a stave out of.
However, you can make a darned good drink by pouring hot water over the seed heads, especially if you mix it 50-50 with store-bought lemonade. The extra sugar in the lemonade balances the great tart flavor of the sumac--and it's a wonderful project to do with kids.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Do you guys remember the White wood wars in here? Did anybody try Sumac?
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From: Runner
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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It comes down to practicality and durability for many woods that can make a bow if all sorts of extreme measures are taken.
The white wood wars were much more limited to just comparing great bow woods of the two different types.
Even die hard Osage fans will still admit that Hickory, Elm, HHB and Maple are still very good bow woods.
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From: GLF
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Sumac is light ,brittle, very easy to break and makes fantastic kindling wood. Oh, and dries very fast.
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From: Juancho
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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GLF X 2
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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So was Tim Baker just pulling my leg then?
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From: Stan
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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If you have the wood just try it.. Btw, you don't always have to make a full size bow to get the idea of how the wood will react.. Most the selfbows I made in the 90s were of ash.. Loved it..
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From: Runner
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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No. He's certain in his beliefs.
Make the bow and then make your decision.
Just don't start going around telling people Sumac works because Tim said so.
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From: msinc
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Well, lets see....he quotes theory, posts a photo of someone else shooting a bow that is not sumac and suggests that it should make a decent shooting bow because the density is similar to another totally unrelated wood. That's enough information from this "expert" for me to safely say I wont be making a bow out of it. It doesn't sound like gods gift to the bow making world has done much of anything with sumac to me. In fairness I will say that the strain in my area absolutely grows plenty big enough to get a bow out of. I have several sumac trees on property that I own in excess of 40 feet tall with the main trunk at least 16" or so in diameter. I have milled a few 20" logs as well, so make no mistake, there is at least one type or species that gets big enough to make bows. As previously stated, I have heard of it being easy to carve. Best thing I can say Mr. Lewis, since you are so adamant about using it to make a self bow is do it and let us know how you make out. You could just be the next Archery Hall of Fame guy to discover the greatest bow wood in existence...but I wouldn't bet on it. Don't get me wrong, you wont know unless you try and I am all for finding new and better things, but bow wood seems like it has been well explored when you consider we as a people have been "testing" it for 5000 years or so.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Pat we ask questions here to find out the answer. In Tim’s opinion you could make a serviceable bow out of Sumac. He didn’t say it was the best bow wood. You must have missed the White Wood wars. A lot of good information back then.
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From: Frisky
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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The Staghorn sumac Tim is talking about could likely make a bow. We don't have it here. The Smooth sumac we do have would never make a bow, but the forks make the best slingshots you'll ever shoot! The wood is nearly as light as Balsa, and the sap wood, I leave on slingshots, is beautiful to behold!
Joe
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Thanks Joe, You always make a lot of sense. You have been on here a long time. I know you know what your talking about. Of course Stag horn Sumac!;) awesome looking if sling shots. Hard hitting too I bet. Thanks for your input. I really didn’t think Tim was pulling my leg. He’s pretty serious when talking bow wood.
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From: Runner
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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I'm very familiar with the white wood wars and I've also made many bows in the last 45 years and cut a lot of Sumac.
It's not bow wood.
But you do you.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Yes Pat but do you have “Stag Horn Sumac” in your neck of the woods? Apparently according to frisky this is a superior type of sumac. I plan on doing more research on it. Thanks for your input Pat;)
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From: Runner
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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I have(had) it growing in my back yard never mind the woods.
You've never made a selfbow, right?
But sure, researching Staghorn Sumac is a great way of continuing to avoid doing so.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 30-Mar-22 |
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Pat a friend of mine ask me if he could make a bow out of Sumac. I have only made 3. First one I made from sassafras. And it failed. 2nd one I made from Ash and it failed. 3rd one I made from Hickory. And it’s still shooting arrows. My friend has a large Sumac he’s going to cut down. I have no experience with Sumac that’s why I asked the question to the experts on here. Again thanks for your input.;)
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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When bow width and length are adjusted for a wood's density different-density woods make equally durable and efficient bows.
Anyone who can't make a durable, efficient bow from .40sg wood hasn't learned to apply this thinking.
The two main advantages of dense woods: Not as much knowledge or skill is needed to get a serviceable bow, and the bow can be shorter and narrower.
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From: Runner
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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Nope, they just realize that the bow is not practical for long term use.
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From: static
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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HECK YAH! my 1st bows where sumac. Kite string or fishing line for the string along w/ goldenrod arrows. I would tear spring peepers up. Obviously I'm speaking of kids bows, sorry
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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I know Tim is talking from hands on experience. Thanks Tim.
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From: Stan
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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Always appreciate Tims input..
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From: Bassmaster
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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A working man's bow. I don't know what that really means. For 7 bucks you can buy a board, and make a board bow from good quality wood. Walnut ,and Birch (both 2nd string woods) can make a good bow, but both are softer hard woods, an not as durable than the tried, and true bow woods like hickory, hornbeam,blue beech, black locust, white oak, and elm, and some others. Tim Baker,and Badger, and some others push to see what is possible with less than stellar woods. They are experienced, and can pull it off. For you a white, or red oak ,hickory, or maple board bow would be a great way to start your bow making journey. The first board bow I made for my son was long,and wide at 55lbs at his draw. He killed a boar,and buck with it the same year. That was 15 years ago ,and it is still going. Sumac for you right now not so much.
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From: Runner
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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Hands on with Sumac? I doubt it. He would have said does work, not should work.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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Tim’s pretty respected when it comes to selfbows Pat. You sure you been on here a long time.:)
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From: Runner
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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Yes, and he also likes to push his theories every chance he gets. It's up to you to decide if you want to pursue the practical or impractical.
How long someone has been on here means exactly zilch.
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From: Dutch oven
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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Another use for Staghorn sumac. Very pretty and easy to carve.
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From: Bassmaster
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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Pretty spoons, and ducks. Nice work.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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John awesome carvings That Staghorn sumac has beautiful grain.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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Geese Pat. Did you get up off the wrong side of the bed this morning? Maybe you should go shoot some arrows:)
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From: Runner
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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"It's important to keep the camel's nose out of the tent." -Tim Baker
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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Wow! I must of missed something! Hope your day gets better Pat.;)
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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Thanks Everyone for all the input
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From: Runner
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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You certainly did. My day has been fantastic so far.
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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Anti sumac guys: Let's see if we're actually in disagreement. Do you disagree that, in general, if a low-density wood is made appropriately wide or long enough it can have the low set, durability and speed of denser wood?
Don T. Lewis: If you'd like to give that sumac a try message me and if you'd like I'll work with you with a design that will yield a durable, efficient, smooth, accurate shooter from that wood.
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From: msinc
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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I really would like to see somebody make one out of it....you can drive your car with your feet if you want to, but that don't make it a good idea....
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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I think this could be a great learning experience Tim. I will send you a PM later in the day. Thanks.
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From: Runner
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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" Do you disagree that, in general, if a low-density wood is made appropriately wide or long enough it can have the low set, durability and speed of denser wood?"
I'm not sure the same guys want to go through this whole routine every 20 years.
Maybe some new guys.
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From: Frisky
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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The berries are super tart!
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From: Frisky
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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The tea is loaded with vitamin C and is excellent, when sweetened with Stevia!
Joe
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From: Juancho
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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X2 for the tea
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From: Catskills
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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So far I have just been eating popcorn and watching this thread, but John's carvings are stupendous !
Lots of good info here, from different sides of the fence.
I am a lifelong carpenter/woodworker as a profession, but just contemplating my first bow. I have big stacks of maple and ash and red oak boards, and black locust logs. Also tons of staghorn sumac growing around my property.
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From: msinc
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Date: 31-Mar-22 |
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Tell ya what fellas...I will give you as many sumac staves as you want absolutely free!!! "All ya gotta do" [famous last words} is show up at my place and pick them up...gotta give me a heads up though so I can cut one down and split it up and tell me what length, but yeah, I have several nice big straight ones here on my land. One tree is huge...I thought I found a world record paulownia tree when I found it one winter. I even marked it so I could come back and get it. It was winter when I found it and the bark is nearly identical. Realized what it was when the leaves came on.....M
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 01-Apr-22 |
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Catskills: A carpenter makes the wood do what he wants. With bowmaking the emerging bow is boss. Fail to do what it wants and it revolts. Message me and if you'd like I'll walk you through your first bowmaking effort and pretty much guarantee you a first-class shooter. Or if you're near Los Angeles swing by and we'll tiller up a bow one afternoon, so you can know the ropes for your first solo effort.
Interesting footnote: After giving many group bowmaking classes, several newcomers scraping out first bows, the only person to every walk away in frustration was a carpenter. He and the stave were having a difference of opinion and the emerging bow was just too willful for him.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 01-Apr-22 |
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I guess that’s why Bowyers say you have to listen to the wood. listen to what it’s telling you I guess what it comes down to Tim is everyone just isn’t a good listener off to the dentist.;)
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From: JusPassin
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Date: 01-Apr-22 |
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Tim, you make a great observation. As a life long carpenter I too have found that the more you try to force the wood the less likely you are to have a good outcome.
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From: Jim Davis
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Date: 01-Apr-22 |
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Runner "I'm not sure the same guys want to go through this whole routine every 20 years."
Why-ever not? We do the 40# bow question every month.
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From: Runner
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Date: 01-Apr-22 |
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Out of respect to Dean and Jim.
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From: bentstick54
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Date: 01-Apr-22 |
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In my part of the country selfbows, and knowledge of making selfbows was very minimal 20 years ago. I made my 1st one in 2011 after reading TBB1, got lucky and it came out pretty good. Nothing fancy, but a good shooter and I still hunt with it every year. The 1st 3d shoot I took it to everybody thought I was crazy because they had never seen a selfbow. I have made several since then, had several failures, so I for one am not tired of reading or discussing the same thing over and over again for the last 20 years. I am not new to archery as I have shot recurves and longbows for over 55 years. My recommendation to those that are tired of discussing the same old theories, and opinions, well, just move on and stay out of the discussion. No need it getting your hackles up. State your opinion so the rest of us have the option of considering your experience, and those of us who are interested in learning can decide how to interpret everyone’s experiences for ourselves. What’s good for the goose does not always have to be good for the gander!
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From: Catskills
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Date: 01-Apr-22 |
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Agree with Brian about not getting hackles up !
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From: Runner
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Date: 01-Apr-22 |
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It turned malicious 20 years ago among the gurus who collaborated on the books.
Nobody wants that again I think.
Hate to see 300 pages of "sumac is gold!" just because that's a bone someone doesn't want to let go.
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From: Bassmaster
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Date: 01-Apr-22 |
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Tim your potential bow wood list says staghorn sumac is 47 sg. Make it wide, and long, shorter draw with some string follow, and medium poundage with maybe some type of backing is what you recommend. You also list it as a non bow wood. Their is no doubt in my mind that you have been their,and done that. What speed would you expect to get out of 40lb sumac bow shooting a 400 gr arrow with a properly made bow? Just curious, and at what draw length?
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From: smitty
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Date: 01-Apr-22 |
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sumac makes a good tap for making maple syrup
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From: Stan
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Date: 01-Apr-22 |
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Well imo, that was 20 years ago.. There is no excuse not to cover these conversations now.. That is what this site is about isn't it? Anyone interested in starting to make their own bows need this information.. And actually sharing that info Is showing respect to those now gone ,who did so, freely, without hesitation..
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 02-Apr-22 |
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Bassmaster: You've misquoted me. There's no greater string follow, no greater need for backing, and no need for shorter draws or low poundage if made to an appropriate width or length for the wood's density. As for labeling sumac a non bow wood, read the intro paragraphs to Properties of Particular Woods, page 34 of TBB-4. As to speed, whether .35 pine, .39 poplar, .47 sumac or other such, speed will be the same as for the denser, more commonly used woods, except for this: Lighter-wood bows will often be faster because tip and near-tip width tends to be the same regardless of wood density, light-wood bows therefore having less massive tips and near tips where mass is especially costly to arrow speed.
Sumac is about 20% more dense than poplar. The earlier pictured 50lb @30" poplar bow, and this 45lb version by Joe Prince illustrate two facts: 1, Light woods yield excellent bows if designed to the wood. 2, They are considerably more bulky than dense-wood bows. Sometimes too bulky for taste or a particular use. If dense woods are available they're often the better choice.
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From: Bassmaster
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Date: 02-Apr-22 |
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Sorry if I misquoted you. Just what I thought I gathered from reading that page. That list has helped my a lot over the years picking bow wood, and also your tutoring on bow making along with guys like Jim Hamm, Paul Compstock, Dean T, and some others over on Primitive archery. I will go back, and read that page more carefully, so I no longer misquote you. Good building.
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From: Bassmaster
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Date: 02-Apr-22 |
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Also their are guys on the Primitive sight making bows out of pine boards successfully, so wide enough, and long enough, thick enough works, but not a wood I would use for a self bow, but it's your bow ,so it's your choice no matter what any one else thinks. Good luck on your build, and post when finished.
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From: Jim Davis
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Date: 02-Apr-22 |
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I've got a yellow pine stave drying in my garage.
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From: Bassmaster
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Date: 02-Apr-22 |
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Tried one out of bass wood one time. Not long, or wide enough. Kaboom. Made 6 wild choke cherry self bows one winter. All was good for a couple hundred shots. Then one by one Kaboom. Not long, or wide enough. I have one nice one left that I am going to sinew back. Just finished an Osage sliver bow that I shot quite a few rounds out of it this morning. 35lb bend through handle 3/4 inch wide 54 inches long. Lots of flaws in the wood (crazy glue), but looks like it is going to hold up, and shoots nice.
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From: Bob Rowlands
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Date: 02-Apr-22 |
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To me this is like putting up the wood pile with a frickin bow saw when you have a Husky 55 Rancher ready to cut. 'I like the challenge." I don't. RRRrrr RRrrrrr RRRRRRRRR haha
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 02-Apr-22 |
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Jim Davis: Some of the eastern yellow pines are nearly twice as dense as the white pines: Longleaf [southern] pine--- Pinus palustris -- .59... Pond pine - Pinus Serotina -- .56... Loblolly pine -- Pinus taeda -- .51 ...Virginia pine -- Pinus virginiana -- .49.
If your stave is longleaf pine, .59, you can pretty much pretend it's black walnut or one of the denser maples, especially if it has a higher than average ring count. When foraging for conifer staves select for high ring count.
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From: Frisky
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Date: 02-Apr-22 |
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I'm with Tim on this matter, and I'm the guy who discovered 99.9% of all selfbows break on the first pull. There's no reason why you couldn't make a bow out of Staghorn sumac, if you design it based on the density of the wood, as Tim points out. Now, our Smooth sumac is NOT a bow wood. Here, it doesn't grow to a diameter that would make a bow. It's not much thicker than cattails. It's also way less dense than Staghorn sumac. I do have 30 pound pull bands on my thickest sumac slingshot, and it could easily handle 50 pounders. That's because Smooth sumac forks are super strong.
Joe
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From: Outbackbob48
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Date: 02-Apr-22 |
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Staghorn Sumac will make a decent friction fire. Bow, spindle and hearth board all out of sumac, not my favorite friction fire kit but can be done and also excellent lemon aide substitute. Bob
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 03-Apr-22 |
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So you can make a bow with Stag Horn Sumac. You can make beautiful ducks and. Spoons with it. So it’s a good carving wood. And if your cold you can also make a friction fire with it to keep yourself warm. Then as Frisky pointed out it also makes a good beverage kinda like lemonade. Not sure why some folks gave Sumac such a bum rap. Seems like a very useful wood to me. That picture of a sumac bow that Tim Baker posted sure looks like a nice one to me. Thanks everyone as always for all the input. So maybe the next time you guys spot a Stag Horn Sumac in the woods you will look at it a little differently now. Thanks Tim Baker:)
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From: Runner
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Date: 03-Apr-22 |
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Did he though or did you imagine what you were led to believe?
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From: PEARL DRUMS
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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I've enjoyed reading this thread. It's made me chuckle at least a few times, life is too short not to laugh some.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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Well at least you have a sense of humor;) We all know that everyone doesn’t have access to the best of both words like Osage and Yew. And some guys just like a challenge. That’s what was cool about the White wood wars. I think most learned a lot from that time period.
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From: Stan
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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Great point Don..Like the saying goes.. A smooth sea never made a skilled sailor...
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From: PEARL DRUMS
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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There are a multitude of quality white woods available to nearly every one of us. Maple, oak, ash, walnut, HHB, beech, buckthorn, dogwood, elm and several more I've forgotten. I've said it before and I'm sure I will say it several more times. There are two types of self bowyers. People like Tim and people like me. Neither is the only or right way.
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From: Bassmaster
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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Tim I did misquote you. Sorry for that. You list Staghorn sumac as a border line bow wood a long with woods like Douglas fir,black ash, sassafras, magnolia, tupelo, elderberrry, silver bell , hawthorn, larch, box elder, pines, sweet bay, toyon, sycamore, in 2005, so you have probably added more woods to that list. Can be durable ,full draw, mid weight bows.I wouldn't be interested in making a bow from the above woods, but it is nice to know it can be done.
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From: Frisky
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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Really, there's only one wood I intend to use to build my first selfbow. It's the greatest wood of them all and makes the best bow. No, it's not osage. No, it's not hickory. It's hackberry! Yes, you heard it first, right here!!
Joe
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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Bassmaster: Sometime before 2008 I no longer listed any wood as non or borderline bow wood--see the below piece from Bow Wood, TBB- 4, 2008. I'm a bit surprised I was still by 2005. Unless just from memory can you send me the link to that 2005 list? Hard to believe it's been 14 years since TBB-4.
Frisky: Hackberry is a good choice, very similar to my favorite, elm. Give that a try if you run short of hackberry.
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From: Jeff Durnell
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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Frisky is all talk, like Babysaph. Don't hold your breath waiting for their first selfbows. It'll never happen.
I'd pay to watch either of them split a big elm log.
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From: Runner
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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Future bow wood lists will no longer mention SG since it has little to do with suitability as bow wood.
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From: bentstick54
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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Runner, I’m curious. Could you give us a list of woods that you consider to be bow woods, and maybe in what order from best to worse? Then those of us interested in learning would have someone else’s experience to draw from.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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About 20 ears ago I tried a host of bow woods and then some.
I never tried sumac so no comment. I remember it when growing up on a farm but we called it poison sumac..
I was around for the wars...osage vs whitewoods....log staves vs. boards.
I am fortunate to have great black locust in my yard and that is the wood i learned on.
Jawge
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From: Runner
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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No. True bow wood lists are well documented. The merits from best to worse are less important for them.
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From: Bob Rowlands
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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So Pat, are you still making bamboo bike frames?
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From: Runner
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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To a limited extent currently. My bamboo supply has been interrupted.
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From: bentstick54
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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So you can tell us what is definitely not suitable for any type of serviceable bow, but can’t tell us which woods you consider are. So where do I find these true bow woods list that you refer to? And who documented them?
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From: Bassmaster
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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Tim if you write in potential bow woods Tim Baker on the web search the list will come right up. 2005. Elm is a pain in the arse to split, and work with, but does make an excellent bow, and can be reheat treated to perk it back up. I am talking American elm, and supposedly their are better elms out their from what I have read.
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From: Runner
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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That is correct.
You'll have to do some more research which will be fun if you are interested in making a bow.
If you want to be spoon fed you'll have to ask someone else.
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From: bentstick54
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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That’s what I figured. And you’re right. Lots of people out there willing to share the knowledge, not just knock what somebody else believes. Thanks anyway.
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From: Runner
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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You're welcome.
Keep in mind the whole "any wood can make a bow" mantra is based on knocking beliefs. It's all a matter of degree between being sensible and not.
Any time someone wants help with a sensible choice, I'm there.
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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Bassmaster: No such list appeared for me. How about sending me the link you used.
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From: Bob Rowlands
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Date: 04-Apr-22 |
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Bamboo doesn't seem like a sensible choice for bike frames, since 99% of the bike frame industry builds with aluminum, steel, titanium, and carbon.
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From: Bob Rowlands
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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I guess you gotta have some serious skilz to make a bike frame from bamboo?
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From: Will tell
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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Poison Sumac has a distinct purple bark.
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From: Runner
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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"Bamboo doesn't seem like a sensible choice for bike frames, since 99% of the bike frame industry builds with aluminum, steel, titanium, and carbon."
Look at it from the self bow perspective. When using bamboo, the species selected is not a sumac like one. ;)
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From: PEARL DRUMS
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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Please PM me If you want a list of quality self bow woods. I've used them all from coast to coast.
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From: bentstick54
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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But in the bike world, comparing bamboo to aluminum, steel, titanium, and carbon, would be like comparing sumac to Osage or yew in the selfbow world. It should never be attempted because common sense should dictate that it’s a far inferior product for the application.
Thanks Pearl Drums.
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From: Dartwick
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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Im familiar with Staghorn Sumac locally. It would be about the last wood I would make a bow with - not that I ever tried.
It lacks strength and wood workers say it tends to crack when drying. Its rarely large in diameter but the center is soft and pithy.
It is can be pretty.
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From: Dartwick
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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Also in reading this thread I get the impression that Tim Baker only knows about Sumac from books.
It would interesting to see him make a bow from it and post it here - even if only to think of the time spent on failures to create a workable example.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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If you want me to the list the bow woods I've used successfully, I can do that. But I don't think that is what this thread is about. Jawge
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From: Runner
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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"But in the bike world, comparing bamboo to aluminum, steel, titanium, and carbon, would be like comparing sumac to Osage or yew in the selfbow world. It should never be attempted because common sense should dictate that it’s a far inferior product for the application"
Incorrect. Lack of knowledge might say that, but not common sense.
Some species of bamboo compare very favorably to those materials, and it has features that make it even better in some ways.
That's why we still have wooden based aircraft, cedar canoes and bamboo flyrods, all selected from the proper "wood" rather than trying to make inferior types do the job.
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From: Bob Rowlands
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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Wood aircraft, cedar canoes, and bamboo flyrods are novelty items nowadays. For many reasons modern materials have supplanted wood in those applications.
However none of those are near as rare as a bamboo bike frame. In fact I have never personally seen one and I have been riding a bicycle since 1960. There are probably more Viking longboats out there then there are 'aero' bamboo bikes.
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From: Bob Rowlands
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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There are probably more sumac bows then there are bamboo bikes.
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From: Runner
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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"Wood aircraft, cedar canoes, and bamboo flyrods are novelty items nowadays. For many reasons modern materials have supplanted wood in those applications. However none of those are near as rare as a bamboo bike frame. In fact I have never personally seen one and I have been riding a bicycle since 1960. There are probably more Viking longboats out there then there are 'aero' bamboo bikes."
Irrelevant to the point. Selfbows are in the same category. Leather shoes, log cabins, leather gloves all should be gone too. They are not.
Boo Bicycles has been going for 10 years or so. "Sumac Selfbows" has yet to be launched, except in Tim's imagination.
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From: Bob Rowlands
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Date: 05-Apr-22 |
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"Sumac Selfbows" has yet to be launched, except in Tim's imagination."
There's obviously some drama behind the scene here I'm unaware of, and not interested in digging up. Pat good luck with your bamboo bike business and good luck to those attempting a sumac selfbow.
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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Here's a sumac bow build thread from the Primitive Archer site:http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,7920.0.html
On 'page '2' he notes the bow's mass as 13oz, way light, so if made wider or longer enough for its mass to be 18 or so ounces it would be less strained and hold more than it's 1" of reflex, and/or have higher draw weight.
Well I have it out to 41@26" the tiller isn't perfect just unbraced its pretty much flat, I started with 4.5" of induced reflex so I guess for sumac its pretty good.think I'm going to pike it 2" and redo the tips with overlays as the wood is fairly soft, also going to narrow the grip area a little for comfort. Probably put it on the form and toast the belly also. What ya all think??? Oh yea mass is 13oz
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From: Jeff Durnell
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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I agree it wasnt wide enough or long enough for that weed. It doesn't sound like a durable bow either if the string was cutting through the wood after a few shots. 38# @ 26"? Make it 60# @ 28" shoot it several thousand times, hunt hard with it several years, then come show us how durable and efficient it is.
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From: Stan
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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Spring is in the air.. Can't ya smell the disdain? I may have missed something here, could someone point out where Tim said you could make a sumac bow that you could pass down to generation after generation? Lighten up folks, some people just like making bows, pretty much out of anything for fun, for science,or just for the hell of it... Some of you think it's a sin, or major waste of time, good for you, pretty sure most here aren't living life to please you..
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From: Runner
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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"Equally durable". Key words.
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From: Kodiak
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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Bamboo bicycles are a thing. I saw one on Gilligan's Island.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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Thanks for the input everyone. Especially Tim Baker for all the technical information. So a working bow can be made from Sumac.;)
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From: Jeff Durnell
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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There's nothing wrong with making bows with 'lesser' woods, they're good teachers. They help hone our design and tillering skills, show us what various woods can do and can't, and help us find our own likes and dislikes. I went through my main experimental selfbow wood phase 20 years ago. I used everything I could get my hands on. Even made a bow from arborvitae. It was a working bow, for a short time. Certainly wasn't durable. Smelled good though. Like cedar.
I wouldn't tell anyone not to use sumac... but I'm not gonna use it.
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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Jeff: " Slight correction. He didn't say: "the string was cutting through the wood after a few shots." Only that the wood is soft. Just as yew is soft, protective tip overlays often used.
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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Tips when trying a new wood.
Most important is getting a sense of its specific gravity (sg), easily done by floating a dry, uniform-dimension sample in water, 1/2" x 1/2" by 10" or so. If 40% of it floats above water it's .60sg, etc.
Design the bow shorter or longer per bows you've made of known- density woods, or wider if too long for taste.
Some woods fail in tension, some normally, some in compression. It's good to know which before laying out the bow, this fairly easy to determine:
Again, make a uniform dimension sample and begin slowly bending it over your knee, checking set taken with each small bend increase. If the sample breaks in tension before taking much set it's tension-weak wood, needing either wider of longer limbs or a trapped/crowned belly. If it takes large set before breaking it's compression-weak, needing wider or longer limbs or a somewhat trapped/narrowed back.
Make the first bow of this new wood substantially longer than indicated. If it takes essentially no set shorten it inch by inch until low set is reached. This will be the bows most efficient length.
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From: Runner
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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Jeff must have actually read the whole thread.
"Going to pake it and add overlays also as the string is cutting in to the back."
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From: Runner
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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And going on from that another thread on the bow breaking.
"It lived a short but sweet life. Gave out after 1500 or so shots"
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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Happy to have you here, Tim. Please keep contributing. Jawge
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From: Jeff Durnell
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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Yeah, I read it. Weren't we supposed to? Lol
Btw, I'm not sure I consider a Yew bow truly durable for my use either. Good enough to hunt with I suppose if I'm a little careful with it, but I don't trust it worry free like I do Osage.
That said, yew is actually closer to Osage in s.g., hardness, and crushing strength than it is to sumac. Sumac is considerably softer than yew.
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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Runner: "Going to pake it and add overlays also as the string is cutting in to the back."
I'll send you a full pint of No Stack fluid if you post the link and line where he said that. He only said the wood was soft. Could as well be talking about yew.
And my skeptical soul will send you another pint if you post a link to this:" It lived a short but sweet life. Gave out after 1500 or so shots" Could well be a different bow.
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From: Jeff Durnell
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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It's in YOUR link, Tim. The one you offered us above.
Halfway down Page 2....
"Yea I saw that ryan theres a knot there and I need to get it bending a bit more from the knot out.
Going to pake it and add overlays also as the string is cutting in to the back."
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From: Runner
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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It's on YOUR link Tim. Read that and then I'll send you the other one. It should be right under the first one on your google search.
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From: Tim Baker
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Date: 06-Apr-22 |
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Jeff, Runner: OK, I owe you both a pint of No Stack fluid. I only saw the part where he said the wood was soft. Good call.
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From: Don T. Lewis
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Date: 10-Apr-22 |
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This is what it looks like for those interested in maybe trying it.;)
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