Faster bows are better... you can't prove me wrong.

1. Our deer (Texas) are really high strung... they flinch or drop to leave in a hurry. There's just no amount of quiet bow that's gonna prevent that drop on the shot. Faster bows means I can aim and hit where I intend and a greater distance. Shooting a 190 fps bow vs 160 gets me a few extra yards of distance... OR a few less inches of drop.

2. Accuracy - faster means less range estimation error. In the sights/range finder world... doesn't matter... estimating with instinct - it matters. I cant my bow and shoot with my eye directly over my arrow so I rarely miss left right... it's up and down that I have to work for.

I was a heavy arrow, 5 1/2" banana fletch guy for a long time... paying dutiful homage to the penetration gods... but I can't remember a time when I didn't send my arrow sailing through an animal. I can, however, remember many times when I missed vertically.

BLUF - shooting a lighter and faster (perfectly tuned and cut on contact bh) arrow is better for hunting.

The exception being if you are right on the poundage/draw length threshold for the animal you hunt.

Anyone who starts with the "you'll just miss faster" is confusing fast arrow with heavy poundage... or owns a slow bow.

Kind of a subjective thing, And based on that analogy a 300fps bow is even better because it provides less opportunity for the deer to move and less likely hood of a vertical miss over extended ranges.

But that said, use what makes you happy, all the time understanding that might not be what makes anyone else happy so they may or may not share your enthusiasm for your conclusion.

That being said ""you'll just miss faster" that is a fact and may or not have any thing to do with heavy poundage or a slow bow.

"Faster bows are better... you can't prove me wrong."

Faster bows are better...FOR ME...you can't prove me wrong. There, fixed it for you.

All joking aside, glad you found what works... for you ;)

Be safe and shoot straight.

I'm with you Jarhead, with all else equal, faster is better. Only point that we differ is that a faster bow is fast enough to beat a deer jumping the string if they want to. I don't think any stick bow is anywhere near fast enough, maybe with a super fast xbow or compound at real close range you could still overcome it to a point, especially from the ground, but it's a crapshoot. I'd be willing to bet we could run this thread for pages with stories of spined deer that were shot for heart shots.

I agree.

When hunting, there's two kinds of misses:

(1) You made a bad shot.

(2) The animal ducked/moved.

A bad shot is a bad shot, no matter the speed.

A faster arrow definitely helps to alleviate a bad result from #2 some.

Rick

Speed of sound ~1100 fps

A Faster miss IS The Same as a Slower Miss = A Miss Is A Miss, A Faster Bow better be A Quieter Bow and a Slower bow needs Quieting too. it’s been proven that a Deer’s reaction time is quicker than the Fastest Arrow = Texas Deer

You may miss faster cause the arrow got there faster but you won't miss any more often.

yup... I saw a chart that at 180 fps you have 12 yards before they react... so... I try to get my set-ups around 12 yards. 190... gets me to 13? 9%... what's that worth? It's worth something to me... I'll take every yard I can get.

Of course... a strong counter argument would be "aim lower"... and I wouldn't have much to say. I struggle mightily to do that. I just can't make myself "aim where they are gonna drop."

Yes agreed

"I just can't make myself "aim where they are gonna drop." nope me either.....

Agree with Jarhead too. Have always preferred faster bows because they have less drop in trajectory making it somewhat easier to hit target.

One of the first things I noticed when I switched back to trad in 95 or so (and slowing from 300fps to 180 fps) was the availability for a second shot after a miss-faster is louder too.A quiet trad bow doesnt seem to have the same effect.I dont recall ever getting a second shot with a compound.

I agree I love fast bows I got a Fedora RC 60# that shoots a arrow at around 200fps 500gr arrow

^^^ prob because you didn't need one!!

Speaking of speed. I just got my new Bushmen Xyphose today. It’s a 64” static recurve nock to nock in a 57” bow. I will use it to shoot heavy arrows at relatively high speeds. I prefer to use the term power not speed. This thing generates a lot or energy.

Of course it’s fast, quiet and has an amazing feel at the shot. Dead still in the hand.

I think shooting a bow that your accurate with trumps speed.

I asked him to make it have a Poseidon theme. Ocean black and blue

It’s not a super curve. It’s a static

The eternal quest for speed. We wouldn't have compounds today if it wasn't for a guy who couldn't hit a deer cause they always ducked his arrows.

Learned my lesson almost 40 year's ago. I have an already short draw 26 trad bows 27 wheel bows. Had a Martin cougar magnum with overdraw shooting 24" 1816 well over 300 fps very fast for back in those days. Had a big doe at 15 yards she hadn't spotted me but knew something wasn't right & was on edge. I can still remember it like it just happened. I thought to myself there's no way she can jump this bow drew aimed released & she damn near hit the ground. Say & think what ya want there's no amount of speed in relation to a deer & a bow that's gonna make a difference. Give me quiet over speed every time. I do however agree with ya on the benefits of a flatter shooting arrow associated with speed

I am also in the faster is better camp. Always have been, always will be. That doesn’t mean I won’t shoot a “slow” bow but when a job needs to be done I want what works best for me. Altitude, takes a cool looking recurve. How about a brief review when you get a chance?

Man, there's enough hot air here to run my house for a month in February.

It depends. I take a bow and arrow combo who's tuned to have one single gap inside the contour of the animal for distances between 10 to 30 yards that will send the arrow in the kill zone any day vs a fast bow who's fast but I need to aim in the dirt.

Fast bow = big gaps if you don't use a hard aiming method like fixed crawl. Yes, if using fixed crawl, faster is better.

There are more layers on the onion than speed and sound.

My fastest bow is also my quietest bow. Your hear nothing but a dacron string swishing thru air, period. She shoots 560gn arrows at a touch over 200fps without noise at 62lbs. Its the only bow I own or have ever owned that shoots faster than the mid to high 190's of my others. But then a couple of those are shooting 600gns. If its noisy with 1 set of cat whiskers it gets rehomed, as do slow bows. At close to 32" draw I don't have to put up with the poor penetration of slow. Speed = pen.

Unless your shooting faster than the speed of sound....no trad bow will outshoot a deers reflexes!

[[[ "Unless your shooting faster than the speed of sound....no trad bow will outshoot a deers reflexes!" ]]]

You are absolutely correct about that, but the faster that arrow is traveling, the closer it will be to them before they react.

I don't believe the bow noise causes them to duck/react as much as it is the arrow noise coming at them, so if I have a fast quiet arrow in flight, I believe I'm a leg up on the game. <- cool pun, don't you think? :-)

Rick

M60 gunner I’ll do a post on the bow.

Then wheely bows are the way to go then eh?

Being able to read an animals body language is more important than speed.. Especially since we are shooting arrows.. Foolish to not want as fast a bow as possible for your setup. I will take quiet first.. I doubt Texas whitetails are any more skiddish than their Michigan cousins, I have managed to kill em with my selfbows from 30 ish# to 50 ish #.. Currently using a Kodiak hunter 47# it's not a rocket by any means but not a bit worried about a deer jumping the string over a Few fps...learn your weapon and stay in your limitations.. Good luck hunting to all this year..

A lot of folks will not believe you about deer ducking noisy arrows or quiet flying arrows. I have mentioned it numerous times. I have also had Texas deer duck/jump the arrow several times with a 300 feet per second compound before I learned better. You can't get any bow or arrow combo too quiet. >>>----> Ken

[[[ "Then wheely bows are the way to go then eh? ]]]

No Sir. :-)

Rick

No, 300 Remington ultra mag is but we aren't talking guns... or compounds.

I don't necessarily disagree but as the saying goes "you do you". Lol. I have found that myself and others I know hang on to trad bows that are a balanced mix of positive qualities. The rest get sold off. There are a handful of makes/models out there that do it all well. I mean really with the top shelf stuff we are only talking a spread of about 10-15 fps max for a 9-10gpp arrow which many guys who havent shot a wide variety of bows can barely perceive inside 30 yds especially if the can't shoot well anyway. It's kind of like cars. The auto industry has made billions off guys pursuing that myth of the perfect car. You can do a lot with the right driver and a good set of tires.

Does it have to be either/or, fast or quiet. Why not both (?).

With my sub 27" draw I don't get much in the way of power stroke. Couple this with my comfort zone in the low 40# range at my draw and speed just isn't in the cards for me. As far as arrow weight, what many consider heavy is what I shoot---10-12 gpp, as I feel it provides me with a good weight for whitetails. I get between mid 150s to mid 160s with these set ups. Again not blistering in the speed department. I've learned though, that familiarity with an arrow set up allows my brain to make the necessary vertical adjustments pretty accurately from 10-30yds--- majority of my 3d shots and does well as my average shot on deer is less than 20yds. As said, speed of sound is several times faster than what anyone's going to get arrow wise, so a quiet set up plus accurate shot placement is the best I can strive for.

Well whatever you believe works. Confidence will trump quiet and fast hands down

JMO: Faster is always Better…. unless you do something stupid to get there.

Even the heavy arrow guys agree, because a “faster” bow is just as capable of shooting a heavier arrow at whatever velocity they happen to believe is Fast Enough. And if Heavier is not better, and Faster is not better, then what the hell ever IS???

No serious bowyer, EVER, set out to make a bow any less efficient than it had to be in order to be as smooth and quiet, forgiving, etc. as he/she wanted it to be.

Duh.

This topic is more about being an instinctive aimer who realized his aiming method is not enough and has to compensate with speed for his “approximative” accuracy than slow bows vs fast bows. You can stretch the DL, go for SC limb geometry or lower the arrow weight, but in the end, learn a better aiming method and fast enough is good enough.

I might as well add my two cents, even though nobody ever listens to me. I like a fast and super quiet bow! I also like a fairly heavy arrow. I now shoot 10 grains per pound of pull and will have gone heavier. A faster bow allows you to shoot a heavier arrow and still get good speed. I don't even worry about deer ducking the arrow, and I shoot at close ranges.

Joe

"but in the end, learn a better aiming method and fast enough is good enough."

Problem for some of us is we don't see the 'middle distance' well. Front sight on a rifle, point of the arrow, all a dam' blur to me. It's either focus on target - aka 'instinctive' - or I'm going straight to optical sights.

"A man's got to know his limitations." Harold Francis Callahan

Damn blur is great, no need for anything better if you always focus on the spot. When I was an instinctive shooter I was not capable to make the adjustment between “centre of the mass” and “heart shot” - heart shot was result of a mistake. And it looks like this is the underlying subject of the 1st post on this topic.

fdp nailed it on the first response post by mentioning the word..."subjective"

One is...I'm seeing geographics play out right here in this thread where our intermountain (Texas) and midwest region folk place a high value on speed and it's no wonder they do because a close shot for them (on deer) is 30-40yds as they are hunting terrain that offers "little cover" for hunter or game but get into the hardwoods and soggy bottoms of the east where you're challenged to even see beyond 30yds and 20yds is a long shot?...then your value system will change because those thick closed in areas?...also act as a "sound chamber" when you drop the string especially so when you consider the following...

Want a faster bow?...easy...shoot a lighter arrow...but now you're also shooting a louder bow and?...

There is no right or wrong here...just different hunting situations and while a hunter would definitely be better served with a smoking fast bow in the wide open spaces?...you might find a slower, quieter bow may work best when you're a stones throw away in a thick, quiet bottom.

JMHO

I WAS THAT FAST BOW GUY! then I had a 2 day and 2 mile tracking job that ended a great herd bull's life by the crack of a 30-06. My need for speed, I thought was the cure for misjudged distance, especially when hunting out west. A 60lbs bow shooting 7.5 grains per pound shooting over 190fsp gave me the disastrous results above. The 35yrd shot centered a rib going in causing insufficient penetration w/ a one lung hit. The following season I upped my grain weight by over 100. Shooting the same bow, I killed this bull at 30yrds as he ''trotted'' past me. BH slipped between the ribs on entry and centered a rib going out. I'm convinced, that additional 100 grains and a bow shooting in the high 160fps was the difference.

static, Nice bull.

Hunting with stick bows is an up close and personnel challenge, and a quiet bow is a deadly bow. JMO, 200 ft/sec or 150 ft/sec don't mean nothing at 10 to 12 yds.

Quite a number of years ago, a friend of mine, and I did some probing into how animals react to both bow noise, and how they react to arrows "coming at them" noise. This test also involved the banging of 2X4 boards together.

The probing/testing was specifically conducted on free range, and heavily pressure/wired Texas whitetail deer.

Without going into any great detail: In "every instance", the reactions of the animals were greater (much greater) to the arrows, than to the bows, or the board banging noises, and the reactions to the arrows reduced as we took the steps to quiet the flight of the arrows.

No, you can't beat the speed of sound, but you can greatly reduce an animals reaction time to that sound, especially if your arrows are quiet, and (within reasonable adjustments of course) as fast as you can get them.

Do it how you want, but listed in order of importance (for me):

(1) I get my in flight arrows as quiet as I can get them, which is pretty darn quiet.

(2) I get my arrows flying as fast as I can get them while staying in the 9 - 10 gpp window.

(3) I get my bow as quiet as I can get it, which is pretty darn quiet.

The primary reason I use plastic vanes for my fletching has nothing to do with the weather. I can shoot wet feathers just fine. It's all about the in flight arrow quietness, and the vanes are quieter in flight (by far) than the feathers are.

Stealth, and speed all rolled into one very lethal package.

Rick

X's 2 to both Phillipshunt and YH2268

Here's a question...

How much do you flinch or jump if by surprise someone firmly closes a door to the room your sitting in as compared to them slamming it shut like a 9mm just went off?

Same dif for deer between a loud bow and a quiet one

“ A 60lbs bow shooting 7.5 grains per pound shooting over 190fsp gave me the disastrous results above.”

And again, I say Bullsch!++!!!

Earlier, I said this: “Faster is always Better…. unless you do something stupid to get there.”

You are blaming velocity for a bad outcome that you had when you used (arguably) a Too Light arrow. You are also, I might add, a little light on details around such things as what broadhead you were shooting, how well you were actually tuned with that rig, and exactly what part of the rib it was that you hit. And then you compared your results to a shot on which you did NOT hit a rib on the way in.

“I'm convinced, that additional 100 grains and a bow shooting in the high 160fps was the difference.”

The additional hundred grains absolutely couldn’t hurt, given your starting point.

But that’s where you stopped making any sense. Whatever an arrow weighs, it will penetrate deeper if you send it faster (all else being equal).

Penetration is a function of Grains X Velocity. More of either (without less of the other) is always gonna be good. If velocity also adds to your accuracy, so much the better.

“ This topic is more about being an instinctive aimer who realized his aiming method is not enough and has to compensate with speed for his ‘approximative’ accuracy than slow bows vs fast bows. ”

Bullsch!++!!!

You are conflating Aiming Technique with Range Estimation. You can have a fully decked out compound with a single pin adjustable slider site perfectly calibrated for your bow/arrow, and if you don’t have the range almost exactly right you will miss just as surely as someone who is taking a wild ass guess. Well, actually even MORE surely, because if the other guy could get lucky.

And a faster bow reduces the consequences of the “almost exactly“ right factor.

Unless, I suppose, you are a “traditional“ Bowhunter who carries a laser rangefinder at all times.

Rick, that video I posted on your forum it is a good example of what you said.

[[[ "Rick, that video I posted on your forum it is a good example of what you said." ]]]

Yes sir, it sure is.

Really, all you have to do is watch videos of incoming arrows with good sound quality. The bow noise isn't very loud from the camera perspective/position, but the arrows get louder the closer they get.

Rick

Deer can drop out of the way of a 300+fps compound, they will jump to your 190fps bow.

BigJim

There is a reason why a hawk or an owl are silent when they are attacking.

It’s shocking how loud an arrow can be Certain vented BHs and large feathers

[[[ " Deer can drop out of the way of a 300+fps compound, they will jump to your 190fps bow.

BigJim" ]]]

That's a fact Jim.

Some studies have shown, that a whitetail deer can drop several inches, turn 90 degrees, and be in a full speed run in 21/100ths of a second.

But, I'm not talking about beating them at it. You can't.

I'm talking about reducing the sensory input / influence to do it / the amount to which they do it, and at the same time (with arrow speed) reducing the amount of variance in impact from the spot you picked to the spot where the arrow actually impacts.

Rick

Slower is better. If it wasn't, we would spend our time all on the other part of Pat's site.

That said, efficient bows are good. You can shoot a heavier arrow same slow speed an inefficient bow shoots a lighter arrow.

Lots of great stuff coming out of this thread and I bet Rick comment regarding "vanes being quieter" have lots of folks re- thinking feathers.

Faster is better. Not because I can beat any animal’s reaction time but because I get flatter and predictable trajectory out to 30 metres with a 9-10 gpp arrow.

That helps put an arrow through a hole in the understory between myself and my target.

I learned this while stumping, something which teaches you a great deal about shooting arrows in the bush.

Jinks, vanes are definitely quieter, but I'm not saying anyone needs to use them. I was just explaining why I use them.

If you stick with feathers (which is fine), you can improve the quietness of the in flight arrow by what type & size feathers you use. In any case - the quieter the better, as long as they shoot good.

Rick

I have nothing against fast bows, per se, but additional speed always come at a price. Often it is increased noise and instability. For what gain? On a 50 ft shot, an arrow traveling at 200 fps arrives on target 1/12th of a second before an arrow traveling at 150 fps. The trajectory argument doesn’t apply at this short distance. Double that distance and the difference is 1/6th of a second. Elementary math. I have no business shooting at a deer in the woods at 33 yards anyway. Too many unseen things between me and him at that distance. Truth be told, most of you don’t either. A deer doesn’t jump the string because your bow is too slow, it jumps the string because your bow is too loud.

“ There is a reason why a hawk or an owl are silent when they are attacking.”

Owls are silent. Hawks haul ass. But if you had ever had a hawk pass directly overhead in a stoop, you would know that they sound like a subway coming through the tunnel in New York City. Just faster.

The difference between an arrow and a hawk is that the hawk can course correct when the target moves.

“For what gain? On a 50 ft shot, an arrow traveling at 200 fps arrives on target 1/12th of a second before an arrow traveling at 150 fps”

WARNING: Anyone who doesn’t want to do the math should stop reading right now.

Normal human reaction time is generally considered to be 1/10 of one second. So 1/12th…. Deer are probably quicker than we are, but one could just about argue that that’s the difference between having time to react to the sound of the bow…. or not. Using your “elementary math“ (which doesn’t strictly apply here because deceleration), 50 feet at 150 ft./s is 1/3 of one second (.33); 50 feet at 200 ft./s is 1/4 of one second (.25).

If you back out the 0.1 sec lock time, that is the difference between giving the animal .23 sec to get moving vs .15, which is more than 50%, during which time the animal is accelerating out of the way. So even if we ignore deceleration of the arrow due to drag, we still have to move from “elementary“ math to physics 101 in order to get anywhere close to the truth.

I just ran those numbers through a “free-fall calculator“ that I found online and the difference in the distance traveled during the flight time of that arrow (less the reaction time) is increased by 2.35X. Under acceleration due to gravity, that’s the difference between 4.3 inches and 10.2.

You can change your assumption about a deer’s rate of acceleration to get a different final number for the distance moved, but it’s still going to be 2.35X.

I’m not saying that we shouldn’t strive to get our bows AND ARROWS as quiet as we reasonably can for hunting purposes…. but if you can get the sound level down to about the same either way, the only good thing about a slower arrow is that it might actually give the animal time to move far enough to result in a clean miss instead of a poor hit.

Joe2Crow...there are more than deer in the woods...ever hunt moose in a clearcut or elk in open timber or meadow??

Pdiddly, nope, not yet. But I’m glad that you at least acknowledged my perspective as an eastern whitetail hunter. The scenarios you describe make for a much stronger argument for a faster bow. Those critters probably aren’t nearly as likely to jump the string like a whitetail, their kill zones are larger offering a little more forgiveness of the less stable faster bows and trajectory becomes much more critical. If I lived and hunted out west, my choice of acceptable bow performance would probably change.

I think it’s a mistake to assume that speed necessarily comes at the expense of stability. At least to such a degree that it would be problematic at 50 feet.

And JMO, if a bow is not “stable“ enough to hit a deer at 50 feet, it’s not good enough to hit an Elk at 90 or 100, either…

I don’t know from Texas whitetails or shooting over bait, so I can’t speak directly to those specific scenarios, but I can see when an animal is on high alert status. And I think it is 100% a bad idea to take a shot under those conditions regardless of what you’re shooting with.

And state of mind is a crazy thing, isn’t it?

Depending on what kind of day I have had, I can react to an unexpected sound with a passing thought of “Hmm… I wonder what that was?”, or I can be startled out of my socks…. and it’s really not about how loud the sound was so much as what was going on inside of my head but below my radar.

That’s the wild card here for me. I could be sitting there looking cool as a cucumber and still come completely unglued over some minor start. I suspect it is the same thing with the animals that we hunt.

So… Quiet… Fast….. I honestly don’t know which matters more, so I am still doing what I can to get as much as possible of both.

And as Pdiddly says, no matter how fast your bow is, you are doing yourself a disservice (as a hunter) if you do not spend a lot of time shooting through obstructed lanes to learn what you can look through and shoot over versus what you can see clearly without realizing that your arrow’s arc is almost completely obstructed.

I hunt deer in the northeastern Ontario and know of what you speak concerning their jitters. That being said, I am often in big timber like old growth hemlock and a long shot at an unaware deer on a snowy day could present itself...whether I take it or not will depend on how it feels but I like to practice for the opportunity.

No bow regardless of speed is going to be unstable enough to miss a deer at 50 feet. That's all on the string puller plain and simple.

All I can say is I guess it's a good thing the indigenous peoples of the americas didn't have internet connections back in the day to read threads like this cause they'd of starved to death.

Yet they didn't...nor did they know the FOC of their stone points nor the straightness, weight or speed of their arrows and they dang sure didn't have plastic vanes yet?...they ate...venison...and many other game they successfully harvested and I bet their bows weren't exactly rocket ships. LOL!

carry on

Fdpx2

Yeah Jinks, that's what I was thinking... ah, perspective. For tens of thousands of years... mostly slow, overbuilt, primitive, string-follow selfbows, heavy primitive arrows pushing roughly made primitive stone heads... for true sustenance, defense, and literal survival of a species... successfully for countless generations.

And yet here we are... calling out slower bow users, espousing, championing, demanding more speed than primitive man ever dreamed of. Guess they just got lucky.... like trillions of times :^)

Tempers are a little short as well it seems.

Keep it classy.

Keep it real

Reality check : need for speed is in the books for decades. Longbow shooters were shooting heavy draw weights to be capable to shoot lite arrows quick - but lite arrow was still above 500gr. With new technology the decision becomes a personal thing based on environment he is shooting. I knew some hunters who want at least above 160fps due to wary animals.

Yeah, I get it, but it's not like wary animals are a new phenomenon.

Whatever. People can do and believe whatever they want. Shoot compounds then. They're like twice as fast, so no WAY a deer could jump the string on one of them.

A deer, any deer, any size, and no matter it's alertness or its experiences, will NOT duck or jump the string, no matter how loud your bow is, IF you shoot at the right moment. This is a dead cold fact. I do not know how it is that even experienced hunters don't understand that simple, elementary fact about bowhunting. If the deer does not have all 4 feet on the ground when the arrow is released, it cannot duck. And guess what? The little squat it does when you shoot that makes you miss is not because it knows an arrow is coming. It only means it has been startled and the squat is simply it bending its legs in preparation for springing away, a thing it cannot do if it is taking a step with one foot off the ground. So, the OP's #1 statement is without reasonable merit.

LOL.

Some folks sure seem to be a bit testy today/tonight.

Rick

I stick to my 3 tenth of a second rule. I set a distance limit of 3 tenth of a second of flight time. If I shoot my slowest bow, (175 fps) , my max distance is 17 yds. With my fastest, ( 280# crossbow 360 fps), 36 yds. there is , however, the fact that a heavy arrow will go deeper than a lite one, that's why my favorite bow is my 88# BW shooting a 760 grains arrow at 195 fps. I have shot deer that didn't move at all no mater how loud the bow was , and others that jump just by listening to my thought, but at 3 tenth of a second distance they stood no chance. And with a heavy bow and a heavy arrow , I shot one thru lengthwise (75% the length of that doe). It made it a full 20 feet before going down for good, and I waited a full 5 min before I gutted her from the moment I shot her.

I have a bunch of bows. Some are faster than others, all are quiet enough (or they aren't around long). Speed really isn't a factor in which one I take hunting. Could be length, looks, feel, or just some sentimental whim. The more years I notch I'm actually more likely to gravitate towards older bows/designs which usually aren't barn burners. For me, part of the satisfaction comes from how hard it sometimes is seal the deal. We all have a different sweet spot where challenge and filling a tag balance out.

The bow that performs better in that split second of taking a critter or expands the situations where we can, may not be the better bow for the overall experience.

All else being the same - of course faster is better.

Is it just me?Or are things seeming to get way overcomplicated?

A few too many synapses seem to be firing round here.Chill out.

Testy? LOL!!!....I don't see any testy-ness here...but what I do see reminds me of those moments when my parents and I would be debating any one of a thousands issues/topics and when they ran out of any rebuttals that could possibly even come close to making sense?....that's when the accusations began to fly! LOL!

like...testy LOL!

This all wood osage bow is the one at bat now. Hunted with it last night and it’s out with me again this AM. It casts an 550 ish arrow in the 160s and it’s silent.

And here is the opposite end of the spectrum for my bows. But still quiet. My bows all hang in the same room together. They don’t discriminate between the fast and slow. Maybe 30’fps between them. They would say that’s my problem to sort out. To learn how high I have to hold my hand.

Too bad we don't have any history to refer back too.

Our ancestors were close range bow hunters, better stalkers, better trackers, and game was more plentiful. Their weapons served them well for the task at hand. No doubt. If you use what is best for your for the task at hand, and you have success all is well. jMO.

Referring to native people and their equipment sounds good but is kind of foolish. Not calling you foolish Jinkster but the methods used by those people today would be unacceptable today. All they had to do was hit them. They could track them all day…… or not if they could shoot another they did. Survival means whatever was necessary. We try our best for one perfect killing shot, if we wound one we wring our hands, have a sleepless night. We would never hunt with someone with the same attitude as native people had back then. We choose whatever weapon that appeals to us from self bow to high tech carbon limbs because we can. When those people were given the chance to aquire firearms they did. I appreciate a slow bow for stability and the fun factor, bunny hunting but the fastest quiet bow I can get goes big game hunting with me.

“ If the deer does not have all 4 feet on the ground when the arrow is released, it cannot duck.”

That’s one of the sillier comments in this whole thread. We humans can duck quite effectively, and we only have 2 feet at best. And if you’ve never seen a human athlete change speed or direction on one foot, you’ve apparently never watched A Sport. Most likely, their ability to duck is at its lowest with one hind foot off the ground, Abut unless you can figure out how to ask the deer to hold that pose for you, I’m not sure that it really matters…

Now, the other thing….

Static shot me a PM about his 190fps set-up; with a Snuffer, he hit a big rib up high, which is where they curve toward the spine, so (from the ground) you have to penetrate that rib more nearly lengthwise than just snap it off. Also, the cross- section is closer to square as you get close up to the back bone, and if you don’t manage to clip the major vessels which are directly attached to the bottom of the spinal column, there is not a huge amount of biggish blood vessels there, so it is something of a marginal hit to begin with. Good thing that has never happened to any of the rest of us…..

So the resistance of the head design worked against him. The resistance of the medium worked against him. The sheer size of a bull Elk certainly didn’t help any. And the light weight of the arrow didn’t give him a lot to work with. None of his specific choices were particularly ill-advised, but the system wasn’t fully optimized for the task at hand.

To his credit, he learned that if you wanna hunt Elk, it’s good to use a heftier arrow, and a 2-blade head might well have penetrated a lot better; certainly we’ve seen plenty of threads here in which people hunting deer (let alone Elk!) with bows in the #45 range have been encouraged to go with 10 GPP (and Static was throwing 450 grains) AND a 2-blade.

More weight is Good. A penetration-optimized broadhead is Good. Those two things being good doesn’t make more Speed “Bad”.

To say what is" best" is really like trying to hit a moving target. We all have different taste. That is part of what makes stick bows fun they are a reflection of your own taste. If we wanted the most efficient weapon we would carry something else. I like to shoot a efficient bow with a balanced arrow. For my current setup a hybrid longbow 53# with a 550gr. Arrow. Next year it may be a selfbow. Whatever it is I will shoot it enough to carry it confidently.

Chairman:

"Referring to native people and their equipment sounds good but is kind of foolish. Not calling you foolish Jinkster but the methods used by those people today would be unacceptable today..."

To which I would contend that many do use that very sort of "equipment" and it's called "Primitive Archery" with hand knapped stone broadheads and all matter fact?...Just the other day I watched a video featuring Ryan Gill showing how to make "Pine Pitch" complete with charred yucca fibers to use as a sort of hot melt glue for coating and solidifying sinew wrappings and to that point?...there's a slew of bowhunters that harvest whitetail deer every year using "primitive" archery equipment and those native folks who wounded game?...they didn't go to bed wringing their hands....they went to bed "HUNGRY"..as did their wives and children.

American indigenous people also ran/stampeded whole herds of animals over cliffs.

They did what they had to do to survive, and did it any way they could.

Faster most definitely "IS" better, but only if you achieve it "without" sacrificing other important aspects of the process.

Rick

40,000 years ago the Atlatl put mankind on top of the food chain. No longer was it close quarters combat with dangerous foe. They could kill large dangerous game from a distance. I watched Gil shoot a Boar with one be it only 10 yds away. I made my a couple with 6 once bamboo shafts that my son could sell over the tree tops. Then came the bow, and arrow, which became a deadly weapon for centuries. As early as the 14 century ,and probably long before that the Turks were shooting light barrel tapered arrows unimaginable distances even by today's standards with their circle shaped horn bows. The Sudbury bow that hangs in the Peabody museum collected in the 1660's was of the eastern wood land type. Around 45lbs., and 65 inches long would be capable of killing MOST every thing on the north American continent with a flint head,and wood arrow. Many of us still use the same kind of weapons with success today. Their technology back then should not be underestimated.

"Faster most definitely "IS" better, but only if you achieve it "without" sacrificing other important aspects of the process."

This is exactly how I feel about it. Over time it's been shown that bow performance is the holy grail of bowmaking and is series of tradeoffs. Speed is one component. And each component is intertwined with the others. Faster can mean more handshock, more noise, less stability..... Bowmakers have been, and will be, forever tinkering trying to achieve the right balance.

George history is good in some ways and bad in other lest we keep making the same mistakes. I have known writers who got articles published. I don't hold much stock in those because no ones going to print how many were wounded before their kill. I base my opinions on my experience, not someone elses.

[[[ "I base my opinions on my experience, not someone elses." ]]]

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner. :-)

Rick

Gary, if I might add:

The reason we offer our "experience based" opinions is: They might actually come in handy for some. If your opinion differs from someone else's, then don't try it, but don't knock it either.

:-)

Rick

The best thing about the leather wall is taking advantage of your experience. Some I use some I don't great discussion all around Though a little bit excited at times.

I shoot short range. I shot dreadnaught weight hickories for many years, and never really gave the trajectory any thought due to short range. Now I shoot cedars and enjoy the flatter trajectory, even at short range.

Jinkster, not doubting that primitive bows and stone points are killers they are , like you said people prove it every year. Original people used methods we would not consider ethical to consistently feed themselves.

I remember watching a hunting show on TV which I never watch normally, but they had a video of a white tail ducking the arrow. Oh it was a fast compound! Oh yes I like fast bows.

RonL

Bow speed is a good topic to argue about, but that's about it.

Is faster better well would be silly to argue that fact...

unless you have been so used to gap shooting bows in the 170-180 fps range so long that the trajectory is so ingrained its instinct.

And after a long list of successful kills...you probably wouldn't bother arguing.

It would seem conceipted and hypocritical to only base our opinions on our own experience, yet expect others to value our opinions over their experience... so it's a good thing nothing like THAT ever happens here ;^)

[[[ Jeff Durnell 18-Oct-21 : "It would seem conceipted and hypocritical to only base our opinions on our own experience, yet expect others to value our opinions over their experience... so it's a good thing nothing like THAT ever happens here ;^)" ]]]

You know. You're absolutely correct about that, and I apologize if I've come across that way.

I will however point out what I said about sharing. I share, and I want others to share with me.

I value other's opinions, and often try things shared we with me.

Once I've tried those things (whether they work for me or not) they've then moved from "someone's opinion" into the category of my experience.

Rick

The leatherwall is the poster child for the Dunning Kruger effect.

All of my set-ups are 15 yards... 12 is better. Not an accuracy thing (exclusively)… but the deer are there when my arrow gets there. Past 12 that deer is on the move.

Points taken on quiet. Loud bows prompt a larger reaction... a quiet bow may just give a flinch. My Saluki (primary hunting bow) is not my quietest bow. But it's the bow that I can shoot out of my blinds/tree stand the best... so it's normally the one I take out.

I appreciate most of the perspectives above... Jar

Well said, Rick. That's how I roll too.

The fragile egos I work with don’t understand it, but I always say “If you think I’m doing this wrong, for Pete’s sake TELL ME!”

If I’m making a mistake, I wanna know, so I don’t go making the same mistake again the next time.

Some people insist that THEIR way of doing things is The Right Way. I like to think that I do things The Right Way because I have great data to show what The Right Way IS, and since I WANT to do things right, then The Right Way will be My Way…..

Until I learn something new & better…

Somebody wrote a book where the theme was None of us is as smart as All of us.

Works for me.

cotax, I relate sports to deer hunting, compaparing how a deer ducks with how a human does, and you call ME silly.

Speaking of quietness, and speed, I refuse to forfeit either one (withing reason).

I work very hard to get my bow shooting as quiet as possible, and it is quiet.

I work very hard to get my arrows as quiet as possible in flight, and they are quiet.

I also tweak all the speed from the combo, that I can get.

There's absolutely nothing for me to complain about, because time & time again, my efforts for that combination have proven to be extremely lethal on whatever I shot at with it.

Rick

How about those Red Sox!?! :)

Red Sox........ now they need all the speed they can get

I believe faster is better, "IF", I do not sacrifice overall arrow grain weight, or have to shoot a bow heavier than I prefer to handle. Above all, never, never, be over bowed.

I had deer jump string at 20 yards with a 300 foot per second compound 20+ years ago. I’ll take quite over speed any day. Not looking to shoot over 25 yards, so speed doesn’t mean near as much to me as a quite bow and a good heavy penetrating arrow. Experience and age have taught me not to prioritize speed.

But do they use a clicker? Not trad unless they get the high sign.

The choice got changed. He ask if faster is better for hunting as in better than slower bows. And yes it is because it not only gives you trajectory but more important it gives you penetration. If the bow is well built and the arrows are not untra light soeed doesn't make fir a noisier bow. This isn't the old days when guys made radicle reflexed risers that were hard to shoot well and noisy.

This all gets boring, this is not rocket science

Elkpacker, very true. It was a real snoozer until Nemo’s amoosing post.

Here's a tip.

If you find a topic boring, you certainly don't have anyone twisting your arm to participate in it, or even read it for that matter. :-)

Whether you want to admit it, or not - the fact is, there are some scientific aspects, and physics involved in what we do, and some of us actually are interested it those things.

(Yeah, I'm grumpy this afternoon) :-P

Rick

I slept on a trundle bed in my daughters living room last night, that was just about the equivalent to sleeping on 1.5" steel rods spaced about 10 inches apart running lengthwise to your body with no cushion, so yeah - I'm grumpy. :-P

Rick

Hey Rick, is there there a particular speed threshold at which you think vanes become the choice (versus feathers) for quieting that arrow’s flight?

[[[ Hey Rick, is there there a particular speed threshold at which you think vanes become the choice (versus feathers) for quieting that arrow’s flight? ]]]

No. Vanes are quieter at any speed.

Rick

Damn shame they’re so ugly!

:D

The comments about crankiness in this thread makes me laugh, I don’t see it. What I see is people stating their position. You have people hunting a variety of game and terrain that mold their opinion. The equipment we choose is also dictated by our own bugaboos. Some anything more than a self bow is crossing a line. Others will shoot carbon arrows off a carbon limbed high tech recurve with feathers, heaven forbid you shoot vanes that’s not trad ! If we all decide to have the same position why bother with a discussion.

I have never missed an animal or target and thought "if my bow were only 10 fps faster.. or even 20fps. Very few bows of similar design drawn and shot by the same person will achieve much more than 10fps gains unless changing grains per lb of arrow as well. It is amusing to hear some people explain how they determine how fast a bow is compared to another. I don't have it all figured out, but am amazed at how often I hear people tell me their arrows are "perfectly tuned" or "fly like darts" only to see glaring issues with their set up. Many of these things can give false readings as to tune and or speed. One bow shoots this spine arrow straight and this other of the same weight doesn't. Not a testament to speed.

Once I had a guy tell me that his bow shot an arrow much further than another bow that was for the most part identical and this is how he detwermined how fast his bow was. Come to find out that his bow had the nock point set 1/4" below center and launched the arrows upward instead of in line. Bigjim

about 20 years ago I was hunting whitetails in Saskatchewan on Thunderchild indian reservation.

They drug me 45 minutes by sxs deep in to a swamp and set me up on a bait station. I was hunting with my mathews safari shooting a chrono graphed 339fps at 108 lbs. My arrows also had vanes.

As soon as it was light enough to shoot, I settled my pin on a beautiful 152" 10 point eating peacefully at 42 yards. I couldn't even see the bucks eyes as they were buried in alfalfa as he contently fed.

That buck didn't move an inch as I awaited the inevitable.. but then at the very last second ...not as I shot, but as the arrow approached, he ducked out and kicked up dirt as he skedaddled.

When my guide came to get me before lunch, he said leave your stuff in the tree. We'll come back here tonight. I asked.. "do you think that buck would come back" to which he replied, "Ha!, that buck will be back, he's never seen a hunter before!" When I got back in the stand that evening, I realized that I had left my release in camp. Fortunately for me I had my muzzleloader there too as I was determined to take home a trophy. That same buck was un able to side step that bullet so I guess faster is better! BigJim

You are grumpy Rick, take a break man. :) I find it both amusing and entertaining, and at literally no cost to me; except of course, the time out of my life that I could have probably spent swatting mosquitoes or picking ticks off the dog. )))))))))))

108# !!! No wonder they call you BigJim. Whitetails and Warthogs can duck the quietest and fastest bows. Then some don’t react till the arrow is through them.

This doe I shot 10 days ago didn’t react at all. Approx 18 ish yds

I just ran a handful of bows through the crono and measured their DBs on my IPhone app. I shot inside my shop for consistent light and used the Crono’s light kit The decibel meter was 3’ away. Again this was inside a pole barn so a little extra noise retention and reverb.

This StCharles Thunderbird at 42# 27” using a 501 grain arrow was 81 DB 162 FPS But she was not on alert at all, and didn’t jump until the BH hit her

Just ask the question differently " is a slower bow better for hunting than a faster bow"?

For context the Thunderbird is a very quiet bow. The DBs were measured from inside a pole barn So it’s more to compare with my other bows. They are all quieter outside. For comparison a 55# static tip osage selfbow measured 77 DBs with a 501 grain arrow And that bow is SILENT! no string silencers need apply

I missed two does and shot a third last weekend. Calm conditions. Shots were 12, 15, and 16 yards. None of them jumped the string, none of them heard the shot. They only reacted when the arrow hit the ground under them or, the final one, when the arrow went through her.

Quiet trumps fast for me.

I agree, speed is a positive, if nothing else is sacrificed to obtain it. Not draw weight, arrow weight, quietness, etc.

Most deer, of the hundreds I have shot, never jumped the string enough for me to not have a lethal hit. I have had it happen, and it does happen, but not "most" of the time when a shot is carefully executed.

Interesting

Here's a slow motion video of a deer ducking from a shot loosed at a distance of 75 feet.

The speed of sound is: 1,125 ft/s

Considering -

(1) the distance of the shot.

(2) the speed of sound.

(3) the point at which the deer reacted.

It is obvious to me, that the deer paid no attention to the bow noise, but definitely reacted to the sound of the incoming arrow as it drew nearer.

Link to video: https://vimeo.com/637523440

Rick

My Red Sox have themselves in quite a quandary as they head back to Houston.

Rick, the sound of the arrow would arrive at the same speed as bow noise giving the deer less time to react.

Not sure i understand your point.

Jawge

I agree rick. It’s interesting to stand safely behind the corner of a building and have someone shoot an arrow by. It’s shocking how noisy some broadhead and fletching, Even some vanes are.arrows wobbling, porpoising or fishtailing are noisy too.

That video came out a little big on my 'puter. :)

Houston has a baseball team?

I will always go speed plus heavy arrow equals more kenitic energy. I hunt Elk so what is needed. I just got a new BT with one set of limbs being 48@28. right there at 28 3/4. Shooting a 640 gr sure wood shaft tappered an built by Michaele Boyu trad. they pack a punch and would not hesitate to use them on elk. Oh I am in the late WA elk season in a honeyhole I now have permission to hunt. I also tried a 2018 which shot great being 75 grains liter. No real diffrence so going heavy. I have a buddy who is obssed with speed lite arrows. He lost a nice bull with a perfect shot but lacking penetration. (Black widow 50lb at 28, 425 grn arrows) went compound 50 lbs same arrow. lost a nice bull. good shot jst not enough pentration. Now he is heading to MT with with his 300 Win mag. Should be enough this time. My buddy is a good shot just going to lite with archery tackel to get more speed.

Ah speed is a funny thing . My wife has an electric golf cart and she wishes it would go a little faster. I wish my 30hp Merc would go a little bit faster. I wish my lawn would go a little bit faster ~ Human nature I guess so sup it up if you got it I guess can’t hurt

Elk packer, your points made are why I care about speed. The speed (power) is what I use to propel a heavy arrow using a lower draw weight. It doesn’t mean that I swear off all lower performing bows. I’m hunting deer now with a relatively slow self bow I made. But I know I may need to use different hunting tactics. For example since I’m dealing with less momentum. My shot angles need to change. Like closer to the ground or on the ground. The angle the animal is standing is more important also.

A bow that produces more energy gives more options. Speed is just the measurement for me to decide on those tactics.

I actually prefer to keep all of my bows in the 160s 170s by adding or subtracting arrow weight. Then my hand eye calibration doesn’t need a reboot

Altitude... you're gonna need to shoot 30 gpp to get that Xyphose to fly "right"!!!!

I have no idea why that video was placed up there like that.

Anyway - That deer was missed. Ducked the arrow just as it was getting there. I know the guy who took the shot, and video.

Rick

Interesting

Let me clarify what Corax_latrans is representing as our PM. Corax_latrans seems to believe my Snuffer tipped 450 grain arrow was the issue w/ my bad experience on a bull elk. He seems to believe if I had a 2 blade head, the results would've been more favorable. I'll never know but I am far more confident, if my arrow weight was 100+ grain heavier, regardless of braodhead type. The results definitely would've been more favorable. I don't say this because of something I read or was told. It's been my experience hunting elk and trailing more than a dozen traditional gear shot bulls along w/ several more compound shot elk. Why a Snuffer for elk? that's a different discussion.

Fast is fast, but quiet kills. You can't shoot faster than the speed of sound.

[[[ "Fast is fast, but quiet kills. You can't shoot faster than the speed of sound." ]]]

That's a fact, and no way around it.

But what I am trying to offer for consideration here is:

I believe that the deer are reacting more to the sound of the incoming arrow, than they are to the sound of the bow.

So, if you get your arrows quieter/less intimidating in flight, the deer will react less to that incoming sound.

Quieter arrow for less reaction = good

Faster = good

Combination of the two = gooder. :-)

Rick

My POINT, Static, is that your lack of penetration had more to do with your arrow being too LIGHT than its being too FAST.

You appear to be faulting the velocity per se, rather than the means by which you achieved it. Which is upside down.

Out of any given bow, a heavier arrow will probably penetrate better (within reason), but if you had a choice between two bows of equal draw weight and the ONLY difference was that one shot an arrow of X grains 10 or 20 or 50 fps faster than the other, then you’d be a complete Fool to choose the slower one and you know it. You might prefer to trade that extra speed for more grains of arrow, but there is zero rational basis for preferring the less efficient bow.

Two well tuned bows shooting the same arrows the faster bow will always have more penetration. And faster bows are seldom noisier now a days than a slower bow.You guys argument is like the old "I'd rather hit with a low weight bow than miss with a heavy bow. Personally I'd rather hit with the heavier bow. Just as I'd much rather shoot a fast quiet bow with around 600gn than a slow quiet bow with the same weight arrow. No matter what the circumstance a fast quiet bow will always out pen a show quiet bow. And superior pen is never a bad thing as long as it quiet. Alot of argueing over something that should be common sense.

Listen to GLF.

Discussing arrow penetration is always comical. Remember I told you this, " no two hits are exactly alike, and under the exact set of circumstances".

Corax_latrans In a way yes I'm blaming my need for speed. IMO, a 450gr arrow isn't that radical. I thought the velocity gain was worth the sacrifice of the slower heavier arrow, big mistake. Of course w/ all equal the faster arrow is better but you need to consider how one achieves that more efficient bow design.. I would much rather hunt a bow that I can easily bare shaft tune that's 20fps slower than one that's more challenging to shoot consistently.

Texas prob means bait, that’s what made them edgy not the bow speed. Chuck Adam’s neurological friend years back did a test, I don’t recall exact specifics but it was about 600fps to beat the reaction time, No styk nor compound even can beat that. Hunt natural and you don’t have an issue. Commonly deer in a calm relaxed state don’t respond to even multiple shots being launched at them

Foggy,

That video wasn't done in Texas. Pennsylvania, if memory serves, but definitely one of the northeastern states. .

This thing about speed & sound, that I and others are proposing, isn't to beat them with speed. You can't.

Reducing sound will usually reduce the extremity of their reaction, and I believe it's the sound of the arrow, that excites them.

Adding speed closes the gap quicker. No, you can't beat their speed, but you can get the arrow there a little quicker, which will close the gap some from where you aimed to where you actually hit.

Win/Win

Rick P.S.

Free range deer in Texas are almost always jittery, feed, or no feed.

You know, there is a thread very closely related to this subject over on bowsite right now.

It frames the discussion as a matter of public versus private, but most people who have responded there agree that a sufficient amount of pressure it will turn the animals that we hunt from creatures which are about as dull and slack as a bunch of Herefords into creatures which are nigh on to un-killable.

It’s like the difference between a casual hiker taking the dog for a walk in the woods and a seasoned scout/sniper deep in hostile territory, making his way across a booby-trapped hillside and knowing that the Bad Guys are expecting him to be there right about now.

They’re just wired completely different.

My #52 (net) RER mild R/D LB throws a 480 grain arrow with pretty good zip. With my anchor, my POD is a bit shy of 50 yards, so thought I would like to bump up my velocity a touch for Elk hunting…. just in case I ever get to do that again. But I also thought it’d be nice to bump up my arrow mass a bit, because until you have stood over a downed Elk 3 miles from the trailhead, you really have no freaking clue how big they are. (As an aside: an ABSOLUTELY HUGE whitetail is smaller than a runty CALF Elk, so your deer rig that “blows right through” a #150 whitetail… that’s like “well, it worked on a toy poodle”…. I know big Elk have been killed with 450-some grain arrows from #45-ish stickbows, but you pretty much have to have everything dialed just right…. and it helps to be lucky. )

So I found a very quick LB with more R/D that gives me closer to #62 net and calls for a whole lot more spine - because stiffer shafts penetrate better because they keep all of their mass stacked behind the point on impact. That’s why high FOC works.

John shultz always built and sold slow bows. Of course he wouldn't like fast. And ldb no one mentioned trajectory ,but penetration. No matter what lame arguments come up the fact is faster penetrates much better than slow given equal arrow setup. And fast bows shoot just as accurate as slow. Ask any olympian. Ac shafts came about to get aluminums consistancy and carbons speed. As for quiet, bow makers been making fast AND quiet bows for alot of years. I've gotten the same speed out of my quiet bows for probably 40 years. Like I've said numerous times over the yeay slow bows and noisy bows don't last a week before they go out to a new home.

Btw, I also have a Hill Big 5 that is a blast to shoot and if I ever hunt with it I'll set up and hunt accordingly. I'm not condemming slower bows for other people if thats what they like. But I use the same bows on moose or elk, or whatever and I want everything, speed, accuracy, And silence because that combo is most lethal without wheels,cams, or gadgets overall and within my limits on equipment. I also have a k4 thats fun to shoot.

No, you’re just a little slow….

;)

(All in good fun!!)

So I guess it's settled?

Texas deer are always hunted over bait. It's only possible to execute an out of position shot with a slower bow, only slower bows can be made to shoot quietly. Fast bows can't be pointed as quickly as fast bows (that one really baffles me). Fast bows can't be stable bows.

I am so glad we got that cleared up.

It only took 181 posts to figure it out. For me accuracy #1 quiet #2 speed #3.

I shot the course today, and I could’ve used a little flatter trajectory. I take a lot of longer shots on the foam critters, so it's frustrating to be hitting right down the line, but high & low.

Overall, though, I can’t complain; I shot about as well as I ever have, and I was shooting over obstructions that were right in my line of sight…

Whatever speed you have to work with, you DO have to know how to work with it. Just standing there at a target line without any kind of obstruction won’t cut it; you really have to get out in the woods and just do it.

LDB you were bragging a few weeks ago how fast your longbows shot, something far beyond reality as I recall.

This thread cracks me up! we all have seen enough traditional archers shooting to know. If you put a bow in their hand that they shoot better than any bow they've shot. That archer could give a rats ass about it's chronograph numbers. IMO, this is why Widow recurves have such a great following. Not the fast bow, not the quietest bow, but a bow easy to shoot accurately w/.

LDB....how can you discern in a virtual environment that someone is or isn't a "static" shooter? And how long of a pause, or how long a shot cycle is required for you to classify someone as a "static" shooter?

I feel that your powers of perception and your ability to interpret physiological motor movements virtually is uncanny.

LDB, you actually care a great deal. That's why you continually separate shooters into separate categories of fluid and static shooters.

If you truly didn't care, you wouldn't care.

Black widows have always been pretty fast. Not the fastest but right in there with them. Plus they're pretty easy to silence and they accurate. For me accuracy is #1 , silence is #1, and speed is #1. So yes one of my hunting bows is a bw pma.

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