Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


snap shooting

Messages posted to thread:
Candyman 13-Oct-21
Mahantango 13-Oct-21
Draven 13-Oct-21
Bassmaster 13-Oct-21
SB 13-Oct-21
fdp 13-Oct-21
LDB 13-Oct-21
Crow#2 13-Oct-21
SB 13-Oct-21
Candyman 13-Oct-21
Phillipshunt 13-Oct-21
SB 13-Oct-21
babysaph 13-Oct-21
GLF 13-Oct-21
Eric Sprick 13-Oct-21
Phil Magistro 13-Oct-21
Corax_latrans 13-Oct-21
LDB 13-Oct-21
Blue Duck 13-Oct-21
Candyman 14-Oct-21
George D. Stout 14-Oct-21
fdp 14-Oct-21
Draven 14-Oct-21
Jegs.mi 14-Oct-21
Darryl/Deni 14-Oct-21
Candyman 14-Oct-21
reddogge 14-Oct-21
LDB 14-Oct-21
LDB 14-Oct-21
static 14-Oct-21
babysaph 14-Oct-21
longbowguy 14-Oct-21
LDB 15-Oct-21
Odie-wan 15-Oct-21
LDB 15-Oct-21
GLF 15-Oct-21
LDB 15-Oct-21
bowhunt 15-Oct-21
Bob Rowlands 15-Oct-21
From: Candyman
Date: 13-Oct-21




Not trying to start a debate as to should you snap shoot or not, it is just an observation. This week I have been watching some shooting videos. Mostly on string walking, fixed crawl and shooting with a clicker. I am not going to mention which videos because I don't want to offend anyone. In the videos each archer drew and held at full draw and aimed for several seconds. All of them were using some type of trigger. Clicker, feather to nose, or some type of sear. Then I happened upon some videos of the same guys on deer hunts and watched them shoot at a deer. They all snap shot. No hold at anchor at all. Now did they use their triggers that fast, I can't know. It just makes me wonder if it would be better to just practice snap shooting in the first place because it seems like under the stress of shooting at a deer that is what your brain wants to do anyway. I don't snap shoot at targets but maybe I should. For the record I have been trying to learn the swing draw but that has not worked out for me. However I have friends that hold the bow up and aim and then draw but never stop at anchor and they are suprisingly accurate. Probably not as much as a guy shooting string walking at stationary targets but not much less. And at moving targets they are deadly. Again, not trying to start an argument just some rambling.

From: Mahantango
Date: 13-Oct-21




Can’s open, worms everywhere.

From: Draven
Date: 13-Oct-21




You are missing one point: The speed of execution is something that can be increased or decreased based on the task at hand. As long as you have a shot sequence nobody should care about the speed of execution.

From: Bassmaster
Date: 13-Oct-21




John Shultz, A good friend of Howard Hill shot that way. He did OK. Give it a shot. I make horse bows that I shoot that way, and can do OK with them out to 15 yards looking right down the arrow. I extend my thumb, and when my thumb hits my chin the arrow is gone, but never used a horse bow to hunt with, so I use a shot sequence, and hold at full draw for how ever long it takes to get a good shot off. Both methods work, so it all up to you.

From: SB
Date: 13-Oct-21




Spot on Draven!

From: fdp
Date: 13-Oct-21




I've seen some of those video's Candyman, and I personally think that some of them ARE snap shooting without completing their shot sequence. I think of it as similar to when a hunter using a sighted compound gets in a situation where he or she gets a shot.

Sometimes, those folks get to fulldraw, and shoot without ever looking at the sight pin. When the shot presents itself the "revert" to shooting "instinctively" and never see the sight pin. Can I prove that? Nope, but it is something that I have picked up listening to archers describe the shot. And, it is also about the only way that you can consistently explain how someone who can keep 10 arrows in a circle the size of a soccer ball at 25 yards, misses an entire deer at 15.

A shot sequence, depending on what it consists of and how many steps it has can only be executed so fast.

From: LDB
Date: 13-Oct-21




Nate Steen sent me a video of Dave Schulz shooting to show me the active limb bend and described why my Sunsethill can do what it does so well. When Dave shot for his younger students, he vocalized his draw sequence, swing draw anchor, hold it, release. A possibly intentionally exaggeration at anchor to teach the young ones a complete full draw. Talking with Tom Schulz he spoke of a slight hesitation at anchor. Shooting left handed at longer ranges I am better with a slight hesitation, shooting right handed I do better with a completely fluid shot, but I do slow the tempo for longer shots and when people that I am shooting with stick carbon arrows in my target. While there are advantages at times for aggressive fast shooting, it is more important to start slow and develop to your own abilities. To me the goal is to get to a point where the shot is automatic and not a mechanical process.

From: Crow#2
Date: 13-Oct-21




Kinda like Draven said. When they practice they are getting the shot sequence and aiming in their brain. When a shot presents it a speed up version the brain takes over. Disciplined Snap shooting so to speek.

From: SB
Date: 13-Oct-21




The way I've shot forever! Except for a brief stint with Oly bows! If I HOLD at anchor it goes miserably wrong!

From: Candyman
Date: 13-Oct-21




Again not arguing but the three of these guys shoot with one form of an actual trigger and not a mental cue. All three shot without using that trigger the way they normally do on their videos. They all were touch and go or even got close and go. Not the speed of their execution but they never actually stopped at anchor. Now maybe the guy with the clicker pulled right through it on the draw but the other two never got to the point of just keep pulling slowly until the shot breaks. Not saying there is a right way or a wrong one but it seems our brains are going to go with what they do best when put under stress. Just rambling.

From: Phillipshunt Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 13-Oct-21




Another example of utube "heros" that have all the answers until the real world happens lol. ALL those shot triggers ,clickers, and countdowns,10 second holds etc. works alot better on utube than in the woods.

From: SB
Date: 13-Oct-21




Yep!...

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 13-Oct-21




My clicker works good at home and in the woods. It doesn't know where it is at. LOL

From: GLF
Date: 13-Oct-21




I have to hold 2 or 3 seconds in peactice to keep strong and to keep my tp at bay. But when hunting I don't stop at anchor. As I hit my anchor I release and pull on thru it slightly. Some can shoot fast with no ill effects and some not. But most I know shoot their first shot better shooting fast. Try both and stick with what works best. No one can tell you which is best for you.

From: Eric Sprick
Date: 13-Oct-21




If they’re putting videos up for all to see clearly they wouldn’t mind being named in the thread. I for one would like to see for myself, please share, I’m curious.

From: Phil Magistro
Date: 13-Oct-21




I snap shoot. To watch me it appears that I'm not anchoring because I draw back and release in what seems like one motion. But I hit anchor. I just don't hold.

For a lot of years I thought I was shooting wrong because of all the "instructors" teaching their own theories. I thought if I didn't pause for several seconds to "aim" and my drawing hand didn't fly back past my ear on release I was doing something wrong. So I tried to change how I shot and it screwed up my shooting.

I finally settled down when I realized that I shot best doing it the way I had shot for over 50 years. I do admit that it takes a lot of concentration to avoid distractions and I'm never going to win any competitions because I inevitably have a flyer when shooting more than a couple arrows because my concentration breaks down.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 13-Oct-21




“I draw back and release in what seems like one motion. But I hit anchor. I just don't hold.”

I try to mix it up a bit; usually I hold and settle in at anchor, and sometimes I will hold there with my eyes closed for a beat or two before I loose the shot. Other times, I am startled to realize that I let it rip before I even had the thought that I was actually “ready”…. And a lot of the time those are really good shots.

There has to be something less than fully conscious happening there, but I don’t want to overthink what it might be…. lest I cause myself a problem.

But I think it’s a combination of Seeing what my left hand is doing and Feeling what my right hand is doing.

From: LDB
Date: 13-Oct-21




When I was younger I loved shooting fully loaded target bows, I owned a number of them. For three years I tried to hunt with a 64" Bear takedown with the inset bowsite. I learned that targets and deer are not the same, everything needs to be just right for the bowsite and the slow method to have a chance, and it was impossible for my favored game, rabbits and pheasants. I still have a clicker, the back of the broadhead tagging my relaxed index finger. However, when I kill a deer and don't remember feeling that head tag my finger, I beat myself up wondering if I was an 1/8" short or 3/4" short. Everyone believes they have perfect draw lengths until they don't. From my target shooting years, everyone had clickers, even if a clicker goes off, that shooter can still have an effective draw as much as two inches short if they have a collapsing weak release.

From: Blue Duck
Date: 13-Oct-21




I practice both. Stationary: hold at anchor. But I practice shooting quickly at moving targets. I still hold a beat and hit my anchor. I just practice acquiring the target quickly. It’s also much more instinctive. See the target, shoot the target. It doesn’t work for me on stationary targets, though.

If what I’m hunting will stand there and let me anchor and hold, I will. But they usually don’t cooperate, so I have to shoot quickly at something that’s moving, or about to move.

From: Candyman
Date: 14-Oct-21




Check out the videos by Instinctive Addiction on you tube. Check the one out on target panic and also practicing at night at 40 yards.

From: George D. Stout
Date: 14-Oct-21




People who can't do something will always condemn those who can. I don't know why that is, but it seems to be true most of the time....not all of the time.

Most hunting is done at ultra-close range too, so the need to be hitting hairs isn't as important as is hitting something the size of a soccer ball. I do know that if you don't put the same amount of powder in the shell case, the bullet won't hit the same place. Again, though, at close ranges you don't need to literally spit hairs.

I know there is something to the instinctive shot that most people don't understand....me included, but I've done it enough to know it works..."IF"...the brain and body work together in consistent form. The fastness or slowness of that form likely doesn't matter eh?

And again, you guys who would consider those who take time to aim as somehow less accurate in the woods, are full it it too. Most guys I know who are very good field and target archers carry that same ability into the deer woods. And I know guys who use clickers effectively in the hunting field....and they can react quickly enough.

From: fdp
Date: 14-Oct-21




The bottom line is archery isn't new. Although it is "newer" in this part of The world then it is in some.

An old archer told me one time that one of the most entertaining things to him is when a person, or group of people try to convince other people that the only "right" way to shoot a bow is the way that they are proponents of.

That is simply false. There are lots of ways to shoot a bow and if the way the person does it works for them then it is their "right way".

From: Draven
Date: 14-Oct-21




Candyman, I doubt that more than 20% here are shooting past 30 yards. Bringing the example who’s not the norm is not quite right.

From: Jegs.mi Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 14-Oct-21




There are two prominent boyers in my area. We shoot together on occasion. There style's are completely different. One is very conscious of form and is an excellent shot. The other shoot's very quickly what many would consider snap shooting. He is also excellent shot. Both guys have over 40 years shooting under there belt. Mr stout is right on.

From: Darryl/Deni
Date: 14-Oct-21




Shot for years with a fast shot but hit a solid anchor. Got so tired of being told I had target panic, was over bowed, etc, etc that I switched to a very deliberate hold and shoot. Could not hit anything so went back to the way I learned. Funny thing, I started hitting what I shot at and outshooting many of those that were telling me how I was doing it all wrong.

From: Candyman
Date: 14-Oct-21




Draven I don't understand what you mean. I never mentioned any yardage and I am not disrespecting any method of shooting. My only point is that under stress MOST of us will just let the brain take over and do what it is designed to do. We are wired that way. What I am saying is that I am wondering if the guys that practice that way all the time are ahead of the curve when it comes to hunting (at hunting distances). If you are going to end up shooting that way anyway why not just shoot that way all the time? And again I am not saying that it can't be done, shooting the hold and use a trigger, just that your brain tends to look for the best and easiest way to accomplish the task at hand. Why not just go with it?

From: reddogge
Date: 14-Oct-21




"Candyman, I doubt that more than 20% here are shooting past 30 yards. Bringing the example who’s not the norm is not quite right."

Draven, that will separate the men from the boys.

From: LDB
Date: 14-Oct-21




The first pheasant that ever seen get shot out of the air with a bow was shot by my older friend shooting a 64" what called a Bear Patriot recurve in the 60s, He had a Bear bow sight on his bow. Like I stated, I tried his method, it did not work for me for the way I hunt, but I could consistently out shoot him on targets using the bows with sights. Everyone is wired with different skill sets. My final attempt at shooting a deer with a recurve with sights. A steep up hill shot, at a rather small buck. I put three arrows in the dirt behind his front feet. Then he trotted away, not overly concerned about anything, and continued his grazing. I looked at my three arrows stuck close together and guessed the range. When the little buck moved on, I paced off the shot just like I had done many times when practicing. I was exactly correct, the middle pin should have done it. Went back to where I shot from with the three dull broad heads, and repeated the same three low missed shots. Then I realized that when shooting steeply up hill with a vertical bow, in that position, my natural draw was an inch short and my head position was forward. When standing on a steep slope a person tends to lean forward to keep his balance. Why I did not simply raise the bow up to the amount that I missed, who knows, I was 19 years old and wound up with buck fever so tight my head was exploding.

From: LDB
Date: 14-Oct-21




I did enjoy shooting decked out target bows for many years at targets, even well after I went to just longbows for hunting. To me it was two completely different sports. Kind of like comparing tennis to golf, in both one hits balls, but that is about the only thing they have in common.

From: static
Date: 14-Oct-21




YES, another tool in the tool chest

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 14-Oct-21




I can not draw to the same anchor all the time without my clicker. I know I am a maggot but that is the truth. The only way for me to learn my bow is to learn where the arrow goes according to my draw length. Does no good to draw 27 inchs one time then 25,24 etc. so I use a clicker. It works for me. I know it makes me a turd but it works and that is all I care about. I make it go off each and everytime. I won $20 once betting a guy he could not get to full draw each time. We shot over a Chrono and his speed varied after each shot. Mine was the same everytime. Do what you want to do and call me what you will but I won't be scuffing for arrows under the target. lol Anyone want some tenderloin?

From: longbowguy
Date: 14-Oct-21




I suggest that it is best to pause at least briefly to refine the aim. Maybe to correct it altogether. Or to start over.

The point is to retain sufficient control to not make bad shots. - lbg

From: LDB
Date: 15-Oct-21




I don't care if someone uses a clicker, bow sights or slings, back in the day, we all had clickers on our target bows. What many people miss in draw length control is the bow shoulder. If on one shot the person is pushing the bow at the target and the next the bow shoulder is allowed to collapse, it could be a two inch difference in draw length. If one draws a target bow until the clicker goes off and instantly loses tension and like some did, and have the thumb locked behind the neck with a dead anchor, an inch of draw can easily be lost before the string leaves the fingers, as the fingers relax and body slumps. I cut my arrows so I can contact the point, it is no guarantee that I can do it exactly the same every time, but hopefully the practice helps.

From: Odie-wan
Date: 15-Oct-21




I learned using an instinctive technique and that was reinforced by G Fred Asbell's writings. I shot more than a few critters that way and made some pretty impressive shots under time pressure (for instance, shooting a skunk ~30 yards away before the dog got to him).

I'm an engineer though and it "makes sense" to me that I should aim. Occasionally I can make good shots by holding and aiming but for the most part over the past 30+ years, I shoot best, and most consistently by burning a hole in the target, pointing my bow hand at the target and releasing as soon as I hit anchor.

Also a factor, TP has crept its way into my life and it SUCKS! Shooting instinctively avoids it entirely for me.

Sean

From: LDB
Date: 15-Oct-21




I broke TP for a guy getting him to shoot exactly the tempo John Schulz demonstrated in his video tape, yes before DVDs and computers. Every time he would try to hold and aim he would miss my 3 foot Saunders mat and stick my garage, even at ten yards with the target elevated to level. To get him to have a visual I simply told him to shoot the Schulz tempo, but get a feeling that his arrow was simply backing up on the line that it was going fly. That was at 6 feet. After two days of that, I awarded him with two arrows with judo points and we went dandelion hunting and gave my garage a break. He kills deer almost every year and still loves dandelion hunting.

From: GLF
Date: 15-Oct-21




Phillipshunt those shots with people holding must work just fine in the woods when you figure around 50 times more deer are killed by people who hold. Trad kills are a drop in the bucket and only a small percentage of even those snap shoot.

From: LDB
Date: 15-Oct-21




Some people have a hard time learning to be on target as anchor is reached. Although there are definitely advantages to be able to shoot fast and accurate, for those that swing or spread draw and do everything except release as soon as anchor is released and do a stall or 'tighten up' to achieve a full power and accurate shot, if that is what works for them, so be it.

From: bowhunt
Date: 15-Oct-21




Ultimatly you should with pracitice be able to shoot quickly accuratly and also be able to hold at full draw and do the same thing.

Different situations happen in the woods and an archer should be able to be versatile enough to feel comfortable shooting quickly or after holding holding for a spell.

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 15-Oct-21




Bare sticknow shot technique is largely developed by frequently shooting your bow. Shoot enough and you'll figure out what works for you.





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