This weekend is the ASTB State Championships. I have been shooting for many years, in many different states. As a general rule I believe most set up shots that are too close and too easy. But, I got my bell rung today. The first 20 target course today was the toughest shots in any event I have ever attended. Most people were complaining, but I enjoyed the tough shots. All but maybe 4 or 5 of this 20 had kill zones partially blocked by limbs or brush. It was like many Iron Man rounds. Should they have been this way, you can argue both side of the argument, but I will say it was certainly a challenge. The other 20 shot range was tough in that it was up and down hillsides, some partially blocked kill zones. I have no idea how my scores will compare since there will be a luck factor involved. It was a hard course to shoot, but I had a fun day. The event is on again tomorrow and shoot offs are scheduled then. I wish I had taken some pictures for you to see. Do you like to shoot at partially blocked kill zones? Should targets be set this way in your opinion?

"Do you like to shoot at partially blocked kill zones? Should targets be set this way in your opinion? "

No and no. I'm 'used to' IBO rules, where the entire 8-ring must be open. Beyond that, I'll cheerfully obscure part of the head, or tail.

There were some where it would have been wise to deliberately shoot for a safe "5" just to avoid a miss "0"!

I shot the ASTB shoot today and loved it. I shoot 3D to help me hunt and for a challenge and this course did both! I could only stay one day but I shot both courses twice... 80 targets and wish I could go back.

I dont shoot 3d any more,, so take my opinion with grain salt, Topsy Newcome used to set some really hard courses,, I loved them,,even when I missed,,

I like tuff shoots, I liked the old scoring 8 for kill -5 for wound and 0 for miss. but majority of shooters like it easy and open.

You know John, no matter how they set the course someone will complain. A hard course will humble you and make you a better shot in the long run. I take the course the way they set it and have fun. If I shot poorly it’s on me. I’m ok with it.

There shouldn’t be any obstruction in front of the kill area especially if it’s a sanctioned shoot. I like a challenge but that’s not one. Personally I think the 30 yard maximum distance is to generous. A few long shots are always fun.

I have done and continue to do a fair amount of 3-D shooting. Though competitive in my younger days, I've always done it as a form of practice for hunting.

So, the question becomes, would i take a shot at a critter if the vitals were partially obscured. In most cases, probably not. That's why I don't think the vitals should be partially obscured in a 3-D shoot.

There are all kinds of ways to make the shooting challenging -- size, distance and angle of target, up and down hills, shade, sunlight, across ravines, on hilltops, between trees, etc., but not obscured.

Putting brush or other obstructions in the way of the vitals just frustrates people. Nine out of 10 trad shooters aren't good enough to make those shots, and they end up breaking and/or losing arrows. That sort of takes the fun out of it. Clubs that set up a lot of targets like that soon loose a lot of shooters if there are other/alternative shoots available.

I have to agree, the kill zone should be free of obstructions, you can call it "practice" all you want but it is still a competitive event and should follow standard guidelines.

I posted just to see what sort of opinions shooters have about these type shots. No intention of being critical of anyone including the club, it was an unusually tough course. As I stated above, I enjoyed it.

I like them tough. I keep one or two "icky" arrows in my quiver for those really risky shots. The thing is, if it is tough for you, it is for everyone shooting. I too wish they had more longer shots, like 40 yards.

I always like the skinny turkey between the split fork of a good sized tree, bark or foam!

I think it would be just as challenging to add ten yards to every target and max out the range to about 50 yards and see how that goes over. I guess it's just a personal choice in the long run, but frankly, shooting close shots all day really can get pretty boring pretty quickly so I can see them trying to do something to interject more challenge and potential 'fun'. :) Especially for those guys who carry the with them around a course showing where the x zones are.

I haven't shot at a 3D course for a few years due mostly to health issues. When I did I liked the tough shots. The problem was there weren't any. One day I was asked to set the targets for our club's bi-monthly shoot. So I set some difficult shots, behind trees, behind limbs, animals severely quartering away, you know, difficult not impossible. I was told that I could never set the course again. "Too many lost and broken arrows." You wouldn't believe how many members complained to me that their loss was my fault. "Hit the target and don't cry if you miss," I said. Needless to say I didn't have many friends there after that. I quit that club later that year when we moved. Frank

Still Good To Get Out and Shoot, Enjoy wherever you are At.

Oh and then there’s the “ gimme shot” that we walk up and blow! I was at a local shoot and was in their club house when a fellow came in complaining about how easy the course was. The fellow at the sign in desk just looked at him with a somber look on his face and said “ did you clean the course “ he said no I dropped 6 shots. LOL

I love a challenge. It’s a target not a live animal so I’m not worried about a bad shot. Courses like this teach you what you’re capable of. That first picture of the deer target about looks like a wide open kill to me. That tree is at the very back of the mill zone and on alive animal, if you hit there it’s a gut shot. Don’t see a thing to complain about.

My favorite shot was at the MN Masters many years ago.

You had to stand on a stump, shoot through the knot hole of a dead tree, then thread the arrow between two limbs to hit the kill zone on a standing black bear.

The kill zone was completely open, and yet there were dozens of broken arrows lying around. It was awesome.

I know you can't please everyone but clubs might want to consider the young and inexperienced archers just starting out. I was heading out on a 3D course and met some young kids returning frustrated because they destroyed all their arrows. The club was next to a rock quarry and many targets were in front of the rocks. Miss a target, destroy your arrow. That might have been the first, ( and last ) time those kids ever shot 3D. We can sabotage the future of our sport without thinking things through.

That is why kids should be shooting up close so they don't miss.

JusPassin, sometimes their old enough to shoot on their own and thats what they like. Too bad the club has no one to offer help and guidance.

Those are the shots I like, otherwise it would be boring. Breaking arrows is part of the game. Shots like this force you to focus.

I absolutely like a difficult course...the club I shoot at usually has at least 10-12 difficult targets ( some type of obstruction blocking or appearing to block a portion of the kill zone) out of 20 targets....they are also very good at using small targets to make judging distance harder....I am always amazed at the winning scores... A good score is usually 130-140...with an occasional 150-160

Shoot the Muzzy courses in the Catskill mountains!! Very rarely does anyone get through a course without at least one busted arrow. I would much prefer partially obscured vitals, makes me concentrate more. Shawn

" Oh and then there’s the “ gimme shot” that we walk up and blow! "

On our course we sometimes set the compounders at 4-5 yards on a target to see how they handle it. The kids and trad guys are back around 12-13 ;-)

"a fellow came in complaining about how easy the course was. The fellow at the sign in desk just looked at him with a somber look on his face and said “ did you clean the course “ he said no I dropped 6 shots. LOL "

Yeah, when a guy comes in with a 240 score on 30 targets, with a stickbow, I'm impressed. I see a few, but not many. And that's on a course where max distance for trad is 25 yards.

I set up one target on our clubs 3D course to bust the compound shooters. 20 yards to a deer with a branch with leaves on it at 10 yards. Vitals were completely covered. All the compound guys were complaining when they came up to that target. The group that I was shooting with were asking who the hell set this one up? I just said I did and lobbed that arrow over the branch and with a bit of luck nailed a 10. They had a good laugh! This was not a completion shoot though.

Technically a wide open shot at the vitals, but with 'distractions'.

Personally, I love a difficult course. Threading the needle at long range separates the men from the boys, so to speak. With that said, it depends on the venue and participants. Local club shoots or even state shoots that mostly cater to the hunter and family groups, shots should be reasonable hunting shots. Dedicated target shoots, IBO Worlds, Tradworlds, ASA ProAm's etc... the harder the better.

Most shots guys complain targets are to hard. What I would do is if there was a difficult one for me I had a few arrows I didn't care if I lost them. This way I didn't worry about my custom arrows. Like a coon in a tree or a sheep among rocks and the shot be 40 yards up hill or so.

The young guys would go get our arrows and TG for that cause it was dangerous on those difficult shots a lot of times.

I too prefer a difficult course. Id rather miss a hard shot than hit an easy 1 anyday as i learn something from every miss and in the longrun will make you a better shooter, or at least more aware of your surroundings.

I have no problem with a tough course. If so, I would not shoot TBOF. That said, everyone has to shoot the same target. Keep in mind, these shoots are not for real, and since you are shooting field points in most cases, deflection should be minimal. No one expects someone to take this type of shot at a deer or whatever game you are after. Just have fun with it.

I always set our courses so they were a challenge. Uphill, downhill, and threw narrow gaps between trees. One of my favorites was wide open but if you didn't kneel or squat the arc would cause you to hit overhanging vines. Got lots of complaints on that one. I will say tho our kills were open. May have a tree at the edge but you could hit anywhere in the kill. All our shoots were bowhunter shoots so the hard shots taught you whether or not to try it on a live animal.

I like pushing my luck on the course, and I take shots all the time where the 10- ring is obstructed such that you have to thread the needle to get a killing shot and not kill a tree. And I’ve been known to climb a tree or two to retrieve an arrow on a long, tight shooting lane...

I suppose if it’s a competitive shoot, then by rights the full extent of the eight ring should be unobstructed AT THE TARGET. JMO, That does not mean that there must necessarily be an unobstructed view of it; I don’t have a problem with the idea of a shot where the entire body of a buck is obstructed by a big downed log or brush or something, part-way to the mark; then you just need to use your superman x-ray vision to make the shot. And at a competitive shoot, unforgiving backstabs should probably be considered par for the course. It’s a Competition… you’re supposed to be good enough to not miss the target.

I also think that if there are not going to be separate divisions for split versus three under, It would only be sporting to have some shots that are long enough to beyond the point-blank distance for the 3U guys.

At a Fun Shoot, I think things should be challenging enough to make it more than a round of self congratulatory plinking; nobody wants to go home with an empty quiver, but if you don’t show up with the intention of going home a few short, then you probably weren’t actually planning on having any fun in the first place.

Just saying. The first year we had a trad shoot, MCGROUNDSTALKER laid out a course that was so much fun that my kids arrows were turning up in the lost and found bin for two months!

I think we went home about 20 arrows short of what we had shown up with, and we had A BALL.

I to like tough courses, through trees, brush, overhanging branches , partially hidden targets, but with entire kill zone achievable. I enjoy visual and mental distractions for the challenge because it forces me to focus. I do skin the bark on occasional tree, kill an occasional one, and miss a target altogether, just means I did not block out the distraction and shoot past it. If I want all open lane targets I would go shoot 20 yard paper not 3D. I also like “ hunters round” scoring. Kill, wound, and miss.

Bentstick x2 on scoring.

Funny how the so-called challenges of most of today's traditional 3D shoots and course setups are interpreted. Very few 'simple gear and technique' constraints, lots of 'keep it easy to gadgetshoot' rules. Superlong light flat-shooting carbon arrows, aiming off the tip of those long light arrows, tape or paint marks on arrows (or bows) to help the aiming, low-poundage Olympic-style bows and three fingers under technique (more aiming gadgetry), rigid stand straight stances, longer yardage setups (to better accomodate point-on aiming), and generally an anything-goes approach for bending the challenge aspects of simple traditional. Lol, the only way the rules and setups could be considered a real challenge is for everyone to swap their bows and arrows with someone else before hitting the course. Now THAT would present a challenge...and be a hoot to watch! I'd buy that ticket for a dollar.

You know, if folks really want to keep the gadget traditional 3D going strong but also more challenging, why not set up a charity donation box at the shoot registration booths and for every miss the shooter donates a dollar or three to the charity cause. Now THAT would put some teeth into an otherwise toothless challenge claim while adding true value to the exercise, wouldn't you say?

Time to wade cautiously into this one! We usually set two courses when we do a big Trad shoot! One is more of a challenge course, the other one wide open for people who want wide open shots and people with lesser abilities! It is just fun that way! They are rarely scored and they are for fun! If you set them all wide open, most of our archers complain immensely! They are shooting foam for the fun of it..!! The challenge courses are always by Far and Away the most popular! We know that they are for fun! If you are shooting for ethical kill shots, take the wide open course. These are usually not scored, so we shoot them for fun.

I don't know if we all have the same definition of partially covered vitals or obstructions. To some, it's just distractive vegetation between the shooter and the target, sometimes close to the target, narrow pathways for the arrow, etc. As I interpret the OP's initial post, on some of the targets, the vegetation actually blocks the arrow from hitting the target in a portion of the kill zone, in effect, shrinking the kill zone.

For example, in the pix of the bear above. I suppose one could consider that conifer stem as blocking the kill zone. I'd consider it and the V configured branches in front of the target as distractions. However, move the bear a half a body width left or right, and half the kill zone is blocked.

That's the kind of shot a lot of folks find frustrating, IMO, and not really necessary to make the course challenging. As already noted, a lot of other ways to make the course challenging.

It's been a few years since I shot 3D regularly, but my pet peeve was turkey targets. The vitals are samll enough as it is, but years ago there was a turkey target (which will remain nameless because I don't remember anyway) that a few clubs used which had the vitals way further back than they should be. If you didn't know that, you could have what you thought was a perfect hit turn out to be a 5 when you scored. Never had a problem with McKenzies. And no...a blocked vital is a non-shot unless for fun on an "iron-man" range.

I like shots on the bear above, as long as I can see the whole vital area on the target from the shooting stake, and considering the arch of the arrow, there are no overhead obstructions to block the actual flight of the arrow, I’m good with it. Keeps it interesting for me. That being said, looking closely at the bear behind the tree, there looks to be a lot of holes far from the kill zone, both on the bear, and possibly on the tree. I’m sure many are from previous shoots, but still far from the kill zone. I guessing the bear has probably been set up in the wide open at times, and still acquired of few of those wayward shots. Heck I’ve even done it. My point is for me, the bear as pictured above makes me concentrate harder on the kill zone, and “usually “ I make a better shot. I tend to relax my concentration on the “open” shots. I like a mixture of both, but want all shots actually doable, not necessarily easy.

I think the bear target above would help me focus on the shot more, and the little green branch would be a focal point.

"Do you like to shoot at partially blocked kill zones? Should targets be set this way in your opinion?"

No to both questions. As Dana, IBO rules are fine by me and fair to everyshooter.

IMHO, if it isn't an ethical hunting shot, it isn't a shot I should be asked to make on 3D. All you idiots that think it is fun to break arrows are entitled to run whatever novelty shot you can dupe other idiots to try.

If you want to shoot close just walk up and shoot close. We won’t make fun of ya

I enjoy a challenging shot obstructions and all. Craig I like that bear shot!

Quite often I have a grandson or niece along and they want to shoot from the adult stake so for that reason I don't favor many really long shots (>35yds) or nothing but thick brush/briars behind the target.

I tell people who show up at or club to make it fun for themselves. Too easy? Step back to the next stake. I set the traditional stake out to 24-25 yards, the fixed-pin stakes may be out to 38. (Open class may see 45.) Go for it!

BUT, if you're spending too much time *behind* the target and slowing down the works for the rest of the shooters, maybe re-think it?

18 yards, wide open kill zone. Easy?? ;-)

21 yards? A 'gimme'?

You set it,i will shoot it

RJH2 X2......"Let 'er rip", that's my motto. As long as it's safe, I'll shoot it. It's only rubber meat after all and I shoot for fun not score.

Now we are calling fellow archer idiots because they enjoy taking shots others do not. Man-o-man how this country is changing. Maybe we could walk around like robots, everyone agreeing on everything and everyone doing exactly what everyone else does, maybe we can all start to eat the same food, watch the same tv shows......come on man this is suppose to be a fun site. I made the original post to find out who likes tough shots and who doesn't, not so people can insult others.

Disregard my most recent post, they must have pulled the post calling others idiots, that I was referring to.

So what is your nice name for people who enjoy breaking arrows, both their own and those of others?

I compete at 3D and take scoring seriously enough to appreciate difficult shots and distain foolishness, if you know what I mean.

And the comment on moving up is that a sincere kindness, or ridicule? "We won't make fun of ya", then why mention it?

"Most people were complaining", maybe I would have sided with the majority at that shoot, maybe not, but I was asked for my opinion on this thread. I never expect everybody to agree and be nicey nice, as do snowflakes.

If its a bowhunting course there should be shots you might pass on. Everyones shooting the same targets. So if its impossible, pass and move on. If its all wide open target shoot just set bullseye targets in the open. Heck I hated it when OBA set shorter shots for adult stickbow shooters than the cubs shoot. Every adults max at bowhunter shoots used to be 40 yards and 80 in field archery. Kids max used to be 20 and 30 for those type shoots.

Of course I'm one of those who hates seeing binocs to find the kill lines. Why not just paint a visible kill.

Wild Bill, just out of curiosity, out of the pictures above, which would you call idiotic, and why?

Don't laugh John they already have us doing that. I am the guy walking around with a mask on. LOL

We always set one up using a section of split rail fence with a deer several yards in back of it. You can see the vitals but if your mind wanders you'll hit the fence. The racoon sitting on a wheeled trash tote is a good one too.

We also put an elk at 45 yards downhill and a buffalo at 50 yards. Nothing wrong with those shots either.

DanaC's pictures are all fine shots, Monkeyballs pictures are shots that should not be put out: 1.) Instinctive archers train to hit what they see. Because I am a hunter first, these shots always scream: Don't shoot, because they are not hunting shots and carry a high wounding probability. That's why these shots will carry a high failure rate in 3D as well. 2.) If it can't be shot reasonably with broadheads, don't put it out. 3.) If the 5'-10" guy puts the targets out, the 5'5" or below guys and gals often just look right into green scrubs. This is bad target placement and should be avoided. We can't grow at the stake at will :-)) See Monkeyball's last photo. 4.) Safety: Obstructions, especially horizontal ones can create very dangerous glance offs which will go far and sideways especially from 60#+ bows and heavy arrows. A lot of courses overlook this imho.

For crying out loud, just shoot the dang thing!

If you are as good as you think you are there shouldn't be a problem. Are you there to add to your little trophy collection or to become a better archer?

I shot a course yesterday that you crybabies would have walked off of. It made for some serious concentration and challenging shooting. We had a blast and even commented how much we disliked wide open targets.

"There is no great fun, satisfaction, or joy derived from doing something that's easy". Coach John Wooden

I did not post to criticize the club or anyone else. I personally like shooting the the brush. I just wanted to know who likes those type of shot and who does not. I also hate to break an arrow, but it happens sometimes. I don't think I read anywhere that anyone enjoys breaking arrows. The only arrow I broke this weekend was trying to shoot thru a hole in the metal target on the Iron Man range, cut it too close going for the 10 and......"smash".......... Anyhow, can you remember what Rodney said? "Why can't we all just get along?" Be Happy!

Dangerfield or King?

I think it’s pretty easy. These shoots are supposed to be fun. If your scared to lose or break an arrow don’t shoot at that one. Walk up closer. Stay at home and shoot at a 3d target in your back yard. It’s just an arrow.

I hate when a target is set with no back stop, like on top of a ridge, hit the target or your arrow is lost. When this happens, since I don't keep score, what I do is: I stalk that target to the point I can't miss, like 10 yard and then shoot every arrow in my quiver to make sure it is a kill. Works for me, no complaints

James

King!

I do not like targets where a miss will result in a lost or broken arrow.

Now that’s my kind of shots Craig. The hardest shot out of all those for me would be the caribou. I shoot the dreaded “ instinctive” and have a hard time getting my subconscious to zero in on targets with nothing but open air around them.

Shooting thru that log is a very tough one!

So here’s a thought....

At a Target shoot, where the point is to find out who is the best shot, there should be plenty of stuff to mess with your head, and nothing to interfere with the flight of the arrow. Visual obstruction should be 100% expected, but physical obstruction is not OK.

OTOH....

At a Hunter Shoot, with points for a kill, none for a miss and a penalty for a wounding hit, I think it would be ENTIRELY cool to have some shots that simply shouldn’t be taken. There’s a great teaching opportunity there; no blood, no foul, but take a bad risk and there’s a penalty for a bad hit.

And I would be OK with a rule that says that you can take the shot from anywhere (on the trail) that you are happy with UP TO the stake. The catch would be that you couldn’t step BACK to a better shooting lane, so sometimes you might hold out for the closer shot and end up boxed-in. Other times, you might misread the situation and take too long a shot, only to find out that there was a clear & easy lane if you had only been willing to wait for it. Either way... nothing ventured, nothing gained, but if it’s not a killing shot, there should a price to be paid...

Just thinking that might be a way to get people to keep score so that less experienced shooters could learn what is possible and what is inadvisable.

I would take that last shot Craig, but I’ll tell you right now, I would run a 90% chance of loosing an arrow on that 1. Would be at least 12” high if shot at around 20 yds. Nothing worse than open air behind the target for me unless it’s point blank. LOL

Craig, I don't have 'nightmares' about that but I'll say it 'til the heat death of the universe, that shot is NOT safe. Because wile you may 'think' there's nobody back there, I don't KNOW it. I've seen trespassers wander behind a shooting range in the middle of a pistol match.

KNOW your backstop is fundamental. 101.

I like a tricky shot but fairly close No to obstructions. I always felt that the ten ring should settle things if it is competition . The better shooter will still win but the not so good will not break or lose a lot of arrows. If is non scoring then anything goes as you have the option of not shooting a target you know you are going to miss .

Most of those would be on the practice course at TBOF, then the shots get harder.

Craig, swamp and stone wall, respectively.

I generally dislike utility lines because around here they're magnets for trespassing ATV and dirt bike riders. But that's another topic...

I don't like skylined targets like that buck either. I'd shoot it if it were 20 yards or under but don't like them.

The most insidious target was at Baltimore when they had for years a bedded doe at 25 yards and then they replaced the doe with a bedded elk at 35 yards. Visually it looked the same as before but everyone undershot that target. It was funny. The rams uphill in the rock canyon was a crowd pleaser too.

One club who shall remain anonymous thought it funny to put a floating carp out in the lake where you could retrieve the carp but not your arrows in the lake. Another target was a skylined javalina so a miss caused your arrows go into the same lake. Another was an animal with multiflora rose as a background. Another was shoot through an IRON gate. Needless to say, we never went back. Prime example of compound guys setting the course.

I'll usually lob an arrow at whatever is set up. I will use a little discretion once in a while.

One shot I never understood is a very obstructed target that you have to shoot through the tangle in front, and rely on a fortunate ricochet. I'll probably take the shot, but wonder why.

I don't mind a couple of shots that are dangerous to your arrow supply, but too many of them can really dampen the enthusiasm of the newer shooters...peer pressure is strong.

I like all those shots shown above. I wouldn’t pass any of them. Seems like quite a few lack confidence in their shooting. Confidence in your ability is way more than 1/2 the battle.

Yep, be a cold day in you know where when I pass a shot on a foam animal that I paid to shoot at.

Well, there is the cost TO shoot at it, and there’s a cost OF shooting at it if you miss....

;)

At our club, almost ALL of the “backstops“ are rock walls.... or rock-strewn hillsides.... or great big rocks, or the swamp. The Iron Bear backstop is a great big boulder... there is a pair of Dall’s rams at one station and they are up there on what I refer to as the Wall Of Death.

Most of the time, you can miss the target entirely and get your arrow back in one piece. Mostly.

And as I may have mentioned here previously (or maybe it was on a different thread) the “Trad“ stake at our club tends to be a substantially longer shot than at most clubs in the region... or so I understand from guys who travel quite a bit more than I do. (I don’t get out much!)

One of my favorites.

that should force you to concentrate.

Sorry, I clicked too fast, lol.

Monkeyball, I love the shots on the standing Bear and the two gobblers. I also like Coyote's shot on the Mule Deer.

I think John Sullins and others will say, when I set up my course, I'll have some challenging shots, wide open shots, some slightly up hill and down hill.

I personally don't put targets out that the kill zone can't be seen (thick brush), nor put a shooting stake where there's a danger of whacking one's bow limb.

I see some really good shots here.

Terry Harris

Thanks to Dick Wightman for the photo.

I can’t see that Coyote’s shot there leaves the full scoring area exposed as it is supposed to be for competition purposes....

That would be a great shot for a Fun Shoot, as there is some pretty significant instructional value to it! Yes, there IS just enough there to work with if you are really, really good. Seems there’s also quite an opportunity to find out the hard way just how good you really are… LOL (I take a lot of those…)

The pic of Joe with the tree angling across the kill-zone, though… That one reminds me of my friend the professional deerstalker from the UK who once observed that sometimes it’s better to get something exactly wrong than very nearly right.

10 o’clock right on the line of the 10 ring, isn’t the center of the 12, but it’s right in the middle of a lot of stuff that will certainly get the job done.

TBOT had one target that you couldn't shoot standing up. You had to sit Indian style and lean forward at that waist with a severe cant. There was no directions, I found it by mistake. Doable and fun.

Joe made the shot but had his zipper down? -they gonna close this thread?

Well Andy Man,, made ya look. Th photo is from the 2007 Traditional Bowbunters of WA. Rendezvous. I snagged it off Dicks page. The bow is my 2007 50# Savanah. I still shoot it bit. It feels soo good in my hand.

Andy Man, that's Focus!!!

GF the kill was exposed. The pic was taken at a different angle. And yes you had to pay attention LOL.

As long as the full 8 is open, fine. But 'chicken' shots where you risk blowing up an arrow unless you take a 'safe' 5? No thanks. That equals a deliberate wounding shot, not something I want to promote.

I have been shooting the TBOF event for many years.. in the spring for fun, but usually shoot for score in the fall as I have more time. The last few years they have made an effort to make the course more challenging.. sometimes to an extreme. To me, it was refreshing as it was rather boring previously.

This year, i must have been asked 50 times if i had shot the course yet. The constant complaining about how difficult it was. I really wish I had shot it, but I just didn't have time. I can assure you, no course is as difficult as the masses let on.. ever! There is something to be said about a happy medium as they are trying to please a crowd. Unfortunately, if you have two people shooting, chances are you won't please them all.

BigJIm

I enjoy attending 3D shoots. I have lots of issues and I've lost my edge, so to speak. I don't shoot as well as I use to, so for me all target can be tough on any given day, but I'll take the shot just for fun. Sometimes I surprise myself, we have a good laugh and move on to the next target.

From the same shoot and from Dick's site. The contrast conditions are similar to those of the previous shot above. Dick had the most faith. I must have missed completely. No one kept score. Everyone shot the course multiple times everyday and no one kept score for maximum fun. There may have been a blanket shoot the last day but I don't recall.

Yeah, you can set some mighty daunting shots with deep shadow.

We were setting a boar target last summer, and the 'tunnel' it was in was so dark we had to put the stakes at about 2/3 normal distance, just so the shooters could see it at all. Still nasty. My notes on that set now read 'light target *only*' ;-)

Pretty straight forward shot, no obscured kill zone, BUT, how well do you handle 'distraction'? ;-)

Another 'distraction' set - he's looking at you! ;-)

I have set up a bunch of targets for tournaments, I like tough shots but......

You have to take into account who your shooters are. One tournament I liked was famous for putting targets in a rocky outcroppings. This does a terrible disservice to the family that has younger kids learning to shoot.

I watched a family, mother, father and three kids younger than 12 come off the above mentioned course, the father was really upset, he said "we broke or lost a dozen arrows on one round, $35 worth, I can't afford this, we won't be back". We need these kind of folk to keep our tournaments going, we don't need to make a course too difficult for them, we want them to come back.

Another time a club set up a bobcat with a big rock behind it where if you shot low you broke an arrow. I asked the range manager to move the target a couple of feet to the left or right and so the rock wouldn't be an issue. He got smart with me and said if I learned how to shoot the rock wouldn't be an issue, what a jerk!

I know how to shoot, back in the day I won a bunch of the bigger tournaments on a regular basis, I was thinking of that family with kids that may be shooting behind me when I asked him to move the target.

Uphill and over Valleys are tough shots for me. Come to think about it anything over 20 yards are tough for me.lol

Pass on a tough one, shoot two on the next one. You get your moneys worth and everyone goes home with all their arrows.

No one is making you do anything. There really is no problem here.

Red, I have to burn gas in the truck, then pay to shoot, and someone thinks it's cute for me to smash arrows on a miss?

That's not 'tough', it's stupid.

You're right, no one is 'making' me go to shoots, but I dam' sure won't spend my money some places. Around here there are enough 3D shoots that I can pick and choose. I vote with my feet and my $$.

Don't get me wrong, I like setting up 'challenging' shots, (see above) but if you miss you stand a good chance of getting your arrow back in one piece. As Eric points out, it should be 'family friendly.'

I'm not one of the elite archers at ASTB. I was at this shoot and last years shoot where my grandchild started crying after missing the 1st 6 targets because the stakes were set to shoot through brush even for the kids.1st time in youth division. It was very hot also. Actually this years shoot was easier. But we just shoot for fun now when we go. I would not take a shot at any live animal unless I could have a clean shot at the vitals.So this is not practice for hunting Now we just shoot for fun.Most of time we don't even turn in a score card.The way I see it,is it is set like this to try and trip up the elite archers. But most of you that have been in archery for along time know that the best archers will always win no matter how tough the course. And that was true last week at the state shoot. I like IBO rules , you can make it hard but still possible to hit most targets.The top A archers still win and the B class archers go home happy with all arrows and a good score. My2cents

New archers don't know they can shoot from wherever they want as long as they don't turn in a scorecard, they hear one shot per target and do just that. They don't realize just how flexible the shoot for fun stuff can be plus most parents hope their little ones can win something.

Wide open shots are the ones that are not good hunting practice. Not every animal is going to give you a target shooter shot. Tough courses teach you your limitations while hunting. So you know when to pass.

Looks like some fun shots.

Good point GLF. If you only practice slam dunk shots you are 100% sure of, you'll never improve. I think variety is key. I don't want a course with nothing but arrow eaters, but a couple here and there are good for concentration. And like others have said, nothing wrong with picking your own spot to shoot from as long as it's safe and you're not turning in a score.

I love pushing my luck! I also do like coming home with as many arrows as I set out with. It’s a balance. And I am 100% sympathetic to the parents of kids who might go through far too many arrows if the shots are set up to be too tough.

Perhaps a little more creativity is in order?

For example, maybe some of those obstructions could be made out of slabs of backstop material like ethafoam, instead of rocks?

I have seen quite a few sparks fly in the evenings when I shoot this target from farther out, and I am proposing to my range captain that we should get some 2 x 12 pressure treated or landscaping ties and create a sandbox out in front of this one. Probably fill it with wood chips, since we have plenty around....

There’s probably not too much I cam fo about the ones that go over the top, but it'd improve the survivability on those short rounds....

I like a challenging shoot. Everyone who has to take the same shot as you do, you either make it or you don't. Don't have a picture of it but there was a club is southern Ohio that use to set a mountain lion shot with a stone over hang and wall as the back drop and the lion setting on a stone ledge. If I remember right you also use to have to shoot across a small ravine at the target to boot. There is a culb over by Newark, OH that would set targets right on the bank of the North Fork of the Licking River, you were shooting towards the river. DANNY

Y'all would never shoot out west. When I lived in Montana we he 3 types of terrain, rocks, bolder, and sand with both under it.

Dang GF, how far is the stake set for the shot inside the shed? Surely that must be set up for a 60 to 80 yard bonus shot if arrows are falling off that short or going over the top. Of course kids much shorter.

I shot those from 70… First time at that distance since I added 75 gr up front, so I was experimenting a bit. It’s an old NFAA course, so in some spots the distances are neatly measured and well marked so I know for a fact that’s how far that one was.

I do better with the elevation from the 61 mark, because at that distance if I put my point right about where the highest of those arrows stuck, the rest should drop into about the bottom half of the bull’s-eye...

But I still have a pretty good spread high to low.

Here’s a pretty good group from the 61 line...

There’s something I do there, though, which causes me to put some of my shots they’re off to the right. I need to figure out what’s causing that, although I think I did better this evening in some respects. I got at least 7 out of nine inside the width of the target face, at least… One, I’m not sure about because it went over the top, and there’s one down low on the left which tractor right down the middle but fell really really short and skidded off to the side there. So just that one highflyer on the left

From the Pennsylvania Bow Hunters festival. The flying birds. They spin in a circle and are shot at from 30 yards.

Tuscany Italy, up hill shot, not hard just don't shoot low

This is from a guys personal 3D course, Only have a small gap of a couple of inches to hit the bear 15 yards away. You shoot next to the tree.

This is a classic, from the same course as the bear above

This is just awesome, 40 yards

An all time classic from TiYogi Bowmen in NY

Not hard, just don't miss.....

Now that looks like fun GR.

Deno

Sometimes the target can be in the open and still be a tough shot. “Mentally “ thinking if I miss, I’m gonna lose my arrow. Shooting up hill at this cat on a tree could be one of those shots.

I also like when the club sets up shots like this by adding the barrel for the bear and Jr waiting his turn to eat. Years ago a cub set up a bear putting his head in a tent. Or a 3D gobbler with hen decoys around him. Set ups like this make an enjoyable shoot. I do like a mix of shots. Long, medium, close. Tuff, easy.

Not 3D, but there sure is a penalty of you miss!

Wow! Your white ram is even more a Wall Of Death than ours is!!!

Danny the one by Newark is Claylick bowhunters. They had one shoot where their guys took you by canoe. The animals were along the banks and you shot from a slow moving canoe.

GLF,

Yeah Claylick is there and they have a great coarse. OSTA has been having their State Shoot there on Labor Day weekends the last few years. The one I am talking about is off of RT 13 north out of Newark, as I have thought about it I believe it is called Broken Arrow. DANNY

Yes it’s Broken Arrow.

GF, we used to have a “trail shoot”. You walked along until you “found” the target. BUT you could get a zero if you went to far, no backing up. Yes, the longer shot could be clearer. Each member of the group would take turns walking point finding the target. Of course there were those who couldn’t find there head in their hands and moaned and groaned but I had fun.

Yeah, you see… THAT sounds like a good Hunting course… Unfortunately, the woods here are not thick enough to make that sort of thing very interesting.....

I’ll bet that shooting from a moving canoe provides its own, unique set of challenges… I think I would like to try that…

For me, I don't care how tough the shots are, because they are the same for everyone competing. Don't want to risk an arrow, don't shoot. Also, it is NOT hunting. A miss or butt shot hurts no animal. The downside of that is, it might separate the wealthy shooter from those who can ill afford to lose an arrow.

Geezer, I think some courses are still designed for the 'old days' when archers bought wood shafts in hundred lots, sorted the best for hunting and used the 'culls' for 'fun' shoots. When even a cheap half-dozen carbon arrows costs a 50 dollar bill, the game changes.

Probably depends on how serious you are about this or just out for fun.Have not shot 3D courses in a while but had a friend with an archery shop and 3D range.On Sundays he would open his range to me and a friend and we would have it all to ourselves.We tried shots from all over the place hard and easy.

This was good because it brought into focus "mind game" issues.I remember a deer target with a small tree on one side of the kill zone.I'm thinking don't hit the tree, don't hit the tree but of course the tree is what is on my mind and what I hit. Another time my friend had an elk target 30 yards away in an open field.Since the elk is much bigger than a deer my mind perceived it as a deer 15 yards away and I would shoot under it.

I think s harder course with various things to consider while practicing will help you when hunting for real.

Almost every shot posted by 3DArchery would produce a lost or broken arrow with a miss with a couple of exceptions. These are not just hard shots but ridiculous shots.

Instinctive shooting is what ridiculous shots require. But, people feel rule bound by the shooting stake. Have FUN shoot from your comfort zone wherever that may be, or skip the shot. Or make it more extreme if you have that special urge.

My favorite shoot used to be the Old Howard Hill Shoot in Wilsonville Alabama. They had some intresting shoots there. Skunk om a rail, downhill 8 ft high elephant at 80 yds, charging downhill elephant, and many others that were challeging. Long and some close shots through brush.Lots of moving targets But you knew going in it was going to be challeging but lots of fun. If I remember corectly everyone had to shoot wood arrows or alunium. The smell of cedar was in the air. Arrows were cheaper back then, not what they cost today. No such thing as carbon arrows. The best archers always won that shoot also. It was my first experience with trad bows.

I’m kind of looping back to this one after a while away from it, and I had a new thought…

It seems to me that anyone who shows up at a competitive shoot should expect some of these shots designed to test their ability to focus. Call them mind game shots if you want. But seriously, I think they should be par for the course, and I think that the possibility of losing or destroying an arrow should be pretty consistently present. Because ALL of Target Archery is (at some level) a mind game. If the full extent of the 8-ring is physically unobstructed, you have nothing to complain about because you’re not planning on missing, right?

Welcome to the Big League!!

If it’s a Fun Shoot and the thought of losing an arrow is enough to take all of the fun out of it, then who cares? SKIP IT. Or choose a different angle. Go have fun! That’s what you’re there for, right?

Actually, I think it might be enjoyable for a lot of people to fill out scorecards where wounds score minus a couple points, clean miss/pass scores zero, and everybody fills out a card for the designated stake for their class and turns in their total. Highest total gets a little shout out because they Dared Greatly; highest average does, too (probably ought to limit that to folks who take at least hslf of the shots from the stake). Everybody is allowed to take shots from wherever they like, but only your first shot (from the stake) can be scored.

This way there is no penalty for passing up a shot you don’t like, and the best shots can get a little recognition, as well as those who are the best judges of their own limitations. No way to win by spraying the target or settling for an easy 5 because the wrong end of the animal is in the clear.

Coshocton County Sportsman's Association has an EXTREME shoot on August 14th. Compound distances from 20-120 yards, and traditional distances of 20-75. This is a 25 target course using all newer Rinehart targets, open to public, free camping. $15 to shoot. We are pumped up about this one.

A 3D course without challenge is like a golf course without sand traps. BOR---ING!

We had one bobcat target @16 yards with what looked like a bent and twisted tree branch kinda in front of it, turned out it was a gnarly rusty pipe. Wasn't a problem it you didn't shoot a 5!

Dont matter to me how its set but if its a competition the first person on the course should have the same shot as the last. If you put the target behind brush and weeds it changes as people shoot through it and break it. Hard trees and obsticles are fine but make sure you look at it from all angles. I have seen shoots set so a 6 foot tall person has a clear shot on all of them but 5 foot tall person could not see a single kill area..

"I have seen shoots set so a 6 foot tall person has a clear shot on all of them but 5 foot tall person could not see a single kill area.."

That's poor set-up. If you're not crouching at the stakes, checking for clearance for a leftie, checking for overhead obstructions etc. that's just rushing the job.

And don't get me started on 'gallery space' ;-)

Tom A got it exactly right. None of Monkeyballs shown second Photo series was bad, aside from the YMCA bear which was set by a higher height shooter. And my arrows have no issues even with steel targets, but they have an issue with glance offs and loosing them. Ludy is also correct, that setting targets without backstops is bad for new shooters and will not retain families coming to shoot together. The club I am in is mostly compound, and they put a lot of targets out with no backstops, depending on who set up this month course. Even for younger compound shooters that can be bad.

In Europe, 3D is more like IFAA target shooting with 3 arrows and longer distances. Mostly no hunting focus whatsoever.

I dont think it matters how tough the shot is as long as it is fair for left and right hand shooters. Some times the targets are set up favoring one or the other. Frank.

Tough is one thing but if a miss of the animal results in a lost or broken arrow that is not tough, it's stupid.

People don't go to 3D shoots to lose or break equipment. They go to have fun. I've seen several shoots where newbies were out of ammo by noon. Usually you don't see them again, especially if they are kids and Mom and Dad are footing the equipment bill. I suppose they could always move up closer but I prefer to do whatever I can to keep breakage and losses to a minimum.

How silly. 3D is not hunting. If the shots are not what you would take while hunting, so what? You are there to be challenged, not to bring home meat. Either take the shot or pass . If your purpose is a high score, then you must weigh that desire against the probable loss of arrows. Its all meant to challenge, not to simulate actual shots at wildlife. Just shoot the course, account for arrow lost, and just simply compete. If all shots are safe, competition is limited. I don't believe the range administrators should consider the ability of kids or beginners, rather they should be set up to eliminate all but the best. It is called competion, not a fun range where children, women, and dedicated hunters or competitors are there to win.

"Its all meant to challenge, not to simulate actual shots at wildlife."

On that, sir, we disagree. I try to set shots that might get while hunting, and make them 'do-able, but not easy.' People want a challenge, okay here's one - go to a good shoot and hit all 8's or better. Come in with a 240 or better on a 30 shot course.

"It is called competion, not a fun range where children, women, and dedicated hunters or competitors are there to win."

I know kids who are far more 'competitive' than many here.

Its impossible to make every one happy with one a one stake,one shooting distance.Either the shots will be to far and difficult for the kids and newbies or the shots will be way to close and easy for the good shooters.Easy fix would be to have to stakes,one or easy close shots and a different stake for the more experienced, competitive archers.

Danny is that the place where theres a small shop with an indoor range. You cross over a rr grade from 13?

Guys you pass shots on live game, or should sometimes. Why not on targets? If its impossible others won't kill it either. If its truly hunting practice why is there an often misplaced inner kill an binocs being used to see it. A kill is a kill and a dead animal. There are no varying degrees of dead.

If your competing then shoot from the stakes. It's the same for every competitor. If your shooting for fun move up or to the side a bit if the way the shot is set up is too difficult for your liking. If I am shooting good I will shoot from the far stakes. If not then I'll move up to where I am comfortable. I have shot at all the shoots that Craig posted pics. They are fun shots. As far as the deer on the crest of the hill or a turkey up in a tree, I just move up or pass it if I'm not that confident that day.

A local club here set out 24 targets, with 2 sets of stakes for each target. You shoot each target from 1 set of stakes, then make a second round shooting from the 2nd set of stakes for a total of 48 targets. Each set of stakes has I think 5 or 6 stakes. They start out close for cubs, back alittle for Jr. cubs, then jump back for trad, then then rest for the different classes for compound shooters. It only takes a couple of extra minutes per target to put multiple stakes in the ground to try accommodate as many as possible. I would never expect kids to shoot from 20 or 30 yards, nor expect trad shooters to regularly shoot at 40 pr 45 yds. And how many compound shooters would be happy with nothing but 20 to 25 yd shots.

If I went to a shoot that was put on for all types of shooters and it only had 1 stake for all to shoot from, it would be the only time I would shoot that course.

A good mix of wide open shots, shots with some shadows, shots with some limb or brush distractions, uphill and downhill shots, all make for a fun shoot. If I am worried about breaking or losing an arrow on a particular target, I shoot one of my older arrows, then the pain is not so bad if it happens.

I like to shoot my bow,, so anything is ok for me,,and appreciate the hard work of those that set the targets,,

"And how many compound shooters would be happy with nothing but 20 to 25 yd shots."

A compound shooter friend of mine is a stone killer out to 25 yards. He's a good hunter who sets his stands in cover where 25 is about as far as anyone can see.

A couple years ago he tagged along with some top gun 3D shooters on an IBO course I set up. He came back in and passed unkind remarks about me ;-)

There's always been a divide between 'hunters' and 'shooters' and not everyone does both great. The idea is to play to your strengths and work on your weaknesses.

I like setting targets where ground cover obscures part of the target, just enough to futz up your sense of distance. A couple variations -

Saturday at KY Tradfest.

'Shortening' the target messes with some people's sense of distance

That is a neat set up with the deer feeding between two trees a few yards apart....sweet shot!!!

Old topic ttt This is one we set up for this weekend

My opinion on it is this, if too many shots are tough, guys casual worried about losing/breaking arrows won’t come. If too easy guys looking for tougher won’t attend. I like shoots that have multiple stakes changing angles, distance, and if done with though can have cover or not obscuring a shot. My opinion is also that if we can’t take the shot accurately it’s because of pressure. How else to get comfortable shooting like that without doing some. Multiple stakes is the answer. I’m not talking a scored shoot either I guess but than again I’ve shot 3D since the 80s and never scored a thing. When I’m done I know how I shot

Foggy, I run 'mixed' shoots with 4 stakes for cubs, youth/traditional, hunter (fixed sights) and 'open' for the advanced tech bows. (Long stabilizers, lenses etc.. etc.)

I make the second stake 'interesting' enough so a decent shooter can do well. These are fun shoots so anyone is invited to make it fun for themselves. Too easy? Step back to the next stake!

(The longest 'open' shot on the course this weekend is 48 yards - pretty sure not many traditional shooters will poke that far ;-) )

I prefer to do more with lighting and perspective 'tricks' like that bear above, etc.

Remember, if it is tough for you it is tough for everyone. I don't do 3D anymore, but I use to simply pass on shots where the danger of breaking or losing an arrow was too high for my limited skill level.

In golf there is a concept of penal architecture. That is design where there is a cost to a bad shot, but the cost is excessively high, so you loose a ball and penalties if you can't make the shot, and you don't have any options. There may not be a way to get closer at the cost of a shot and lock in par, or bogey. They have their place but they are mostly bad design.

Archery isn't set up where you have all these options for penal strategic, or heroic design, and multiple shots to get to the goal. If on top of that you make the course, penal, and penal mostly for the less skilled, plus you emphasize local knowledge, the you are kinda douch, when it comes to course set-up. This kind of course set-up is often that once in a year opportunity for some local hero to prove how smart he is, or generally the reverse.

One benefit it can have, but mostly at the local level, is to teach some useful lessons that might stop a person taking a silly shot on game. That would seem to be one situation where it would be beneficial to slap down poor shots who are a little too greedy. But that is not a legitimate goal in a target competition.

"An all time classic from TiYogi Bowmen in NY"

That is classic stupid. Locals can laser all the targets; it is basically a tax on less good shooters. If you know what you are doing you play the games on the expert shooters, who in this case couldn't hit the tree. Just dumb.

Try not to set up your course so that experts shoot from the lady's tees, and women shoot from way way back.

One way to nail experts shooting from further back is to place your obstruction where it will snag their trajectory, but not people further up. But catching people's arrows who suck is just being a bully.

Setting up a target so people shoot their arrows into public waterways, should get you some huge fines, unless you are retrieving them somehow.

Interesting points. I've seen an 'arrow graveyard' where if you miss your arrow is trash. "the cost is excessively high" indeed!

The truth is that many of us miss once in a while, and I'm no exception (as my shooting buddies will tell you when they're done ROTF.)

But setting the course for people who can't be bothered to learn the fundamentals is insulting to those who work at it.

As for 'local knowledge', I switch the course up for each shoot. Target 3 might be a turkey at 9 yards or a wolf at 19. Never the same twice in a row. (And I keep it all on paper...)

"As for 'local knowledge', I switch the course up for each shoot. Target 3 might be a turkey at 9 yards or a wolf at 19. Never the same twice in a row. (And I keep it all on paper...)"

A good archer, aimer, who's shooting on the course cares little about what animal is on what venue since he knows the distances, the shadows etc. For competitions I would pick a course nobody was on it. For fun, the extra work to make the targets hard to get must be like perfume: in small dose to enjoy the flavour.

" A good archer...knows the distances,"

One thing we work hard on is fooling the eye into MIS-judging distances. (Not gonna tell you how!)

Of course, with some organizations allowing range finders ('known distance classes') that goes out the window. Then you're back to setting the course longer on average. And known distance shooters get bumped back a stake.

The course I set for this weekend has an average distance - for traditional shooters - of 17.5 yards, with a long of 27. The open class shooters will average 37.6, with a long of 48. Range finders or no, they'll need to bring it. ;-)

PS I'm glad to see you qualified your statement with 'good'. ;-)

You can’t full the eyes of an archer who’s shooting the same course full year round - this is my take on it. Your course sounds fun. If at 27 yards you have a wolf instead elk you have the game changer right there without animals behind the trees or back to water.

You can’t fool the eyes of an archer who’s shooting the same course full year round - this is my take on it. Your course sounds fun. If at 27 yards you have a wolf instead elk you have the game changer right there without animals behind the trees or back to water.

Hope your shoot goes well Dana and you'll have some pics for us on Monday.

Same critter served up two ways. Different vegetation, lighting, slope of the ground. This week this is targets 7 and 21, next time these guys might be on 3 and 28, different looks again.

"You can’t fool the eyes of an archer who’s shooting the same course full year round - this is my take on it. "

I have to agree, to a point. There are courses around here where they leave the targets out and never change them. Target 5 is the down-hill skunk, 15 is the 'gator, 16 is the up-hill mulie, same as last year. I prefer seeing differences every time out.

(The limiting factor seems to be the amount of help available to set the course. I'm blessed with a good crew.)

Looking at the pic Dana posted when he revived the post…. That’s a log and not a rock, right??

LOL

Not sure who put the burr under Bowlim’s saddle blanket this week, but I’m not sure that post has all that much to do with the thread.

It would be pretty cool to set a course for a Trad Shoot where each shooter could choose a stake at one of two or three distances with different point values for each. I’m not sure how it would work exactly, but it would be great to come up with a scoring system for hunters that would reward good judgment while still sorting the most skilled shooters from the ones who would just limit themselves more strictly when shooting for points than when playing for keeps in the Fall…. I love the idea of offering a Reality Check for those who need it without punishing those who are trying to learn something useful.

Looking at the pic Dana posted when he revived the post…. That’s a log and not a rock, right??

LOL

Not sure who put the burr under Bowlim’s saddle blanket this week, but I’m not sure that post has all that much to do with the thread.

It would be pretty cool to set a course for a Trad Shoot where each shooter could choose a stake at one of two or three distances with different point values for each. I’m not sure how it would work exactly, but it would be great to come up with a scoring system for hunters that would reward good judgment while still sorting the most skilled shooters from the ones who would just limit themselves more strictly when shooting for points than when playing for keeps in the Fall…. I love the idea of offering a Reality Check for those who need it without punishing those who are trying to learn something useful.

This was target 7 at our shoot in early June. Ferns keep us busy ;-)

Our traditional group doesn't shoot for score so at our club we vary what stakes we like to shoot at. Sometimes we shoot closer and sometimes farther, just depends. I'll take some pics tomorrow.

ttt, because why not ;-) This is a shot we set up a couple weeks ago for 'target 30.' Always want to give the shooters something special on the last shot. Plenty of distraction!

Shooters choice - antelope too easy? Wolf is +7 yards. (From the 'open' stake that was 54 yards. A few brave souls may have poked at it ;-) )

I like them hard! .. I know the difference between targets and game.. I guess many must not. I also have little or no respect for arrows, They will make more. Yes, I may whine a little about small targets, but know that everyone is shooting the same course and it is merely my confidence level waning a bit.

When signing up for a shoot, there should be a sign that states who shoots from what stake.. It should also say: If you are not signing up for competition (or don't plan on turning in a score), feel free to shoot from where you feel comfortable.

Hard to please 2 people, pleasing a crowd is impossible. BigJim

Im with Big Jim on this one. I like a very challenging course! It builds up my confidence for hunting.

I like it when the kill zone is on some animals partially obstructed.Heres why,if your trying to shoot at every animal using a static target archery stance,then the vitals will be obstucted.So it forces me to shoot from a non target stance and then the vitals are wide open,with nothing blocking them.

It depends on how the course is made challenging. If all you do is set the targets way out there, not my cuppa tea. Setting targets 'too bleeping far' is pointless.

If you play tricks with light and shadow, partially obscure the targets, set them quartering, arrange 'distractions' etc. then I'm in.

This bear is set to take away the 'ground game'. Lots of shooters use ground distance to target to estimate yardage.

I like the tougher, challenging shots. I don't shoot for score. I only judge myself on whether or not my shot would have been a kill, or otherwise. I get to shoot targets I don't know ahead of time, and learn some things. Easy and open are for another time.

Correct (but it's a spikehorn ;-) )

We used to frequently have a skinny turkey directly in front of a concrete water cistern, usually 11-14 yards. Miss and bye-bye arrow.

I am different. You are right you can't please everyone. The farthest I ever killed a deer was 25 yards & I knew the exact range. He was standing at my decoy. All the rest have been well inside 20 yards. They move & the farther they are the more they might move before the arrow gets there. I don't mind distractions,partially obscured kill zone, light vegetation as long as it is close to the target. Nothing over 25 yards, no skyline shots (not safe in the real world) and no obstructions mid way that can cause glance offs. That would be a real life perfect hunting practice course. That is my dream. I shoot all of them as they are but don't have to like them. >>>>-----> Ken

Wow lotta target archers. Improve instead of dumbing down the course guys

As one that helps set targets, and host these events, here is my take.

Targets are expensive, and some clubs call it ‘target management’ as in, if they are too close, you will soon have a bunch of targets with the 10 ring shot up so bad you can’t see the lines and have to replace.

On the flip side, make it to tough, and the less than stellar shots will spend a lot of time in the bushes looking for, and losing arrows, which is no fun for them, or the people in the lines that are backing up waiting for them.

Ya gotta settle on a happy medium, which I think we do.

I have heard complaints when we have occasionally set a long shot, but it’s always a bigger target, like a moose, that has an 8 ring the size of most targets, and has a good backstop behind it to prevent arrow loss. It’s all in fun. Everyone should miss a target occasionally to stay humble.

And for anyone that comes complains the shots were too easy, I always reply

“So, you shot a perfect score?”

To date, no one has.

Wow, this is a blast from the past. I've pointed this out before so I'll mention it here again. If your someone who sets up a course, base your distance on the vertical diameter of the kill zone. If it's 10 inches then multiply by 3. Set the stake no more than 30 yards. That formula works for just about every target.

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