Hello, I would like to know your opinion on some of my questions regarding Howard Hill bows. I have no experience with it, because Howard Hill bows are very rare here in the central Europe. 1) What are the differences in use of bamboo, yew or other types of wood in the limbs of Howard Hill bows. What is an impact on parameters like speed and handshock? Or if there are materials like fibreglass and carbon on Howard Hill bow, do those materials highly reduce the impact of various types of wood, and has these woods then mostly cosmetic meaning? 2) I noticed, that carbon is little used in Howard Hill bows unlike other types of longbows. Why is it so? 3) What are the differences in parameters of the Howard Hill bow when there is carbon and fibreglass in the limbs or if there is only fibreglass or neither?W hen there are more plates (segments) of one type of wood on the bow. How does it influence parameters of Howard Hill bows? Considering larger work during the production and higher price it can be assumed that higher number of plates (segments) is an advantage. It is possible that higher number of plates can eliminate potential defects in used material but on the other hand more adhesive can make the limbs heavier. Where is the truth? 4) Is it necessary to strengthen the tips of the Howard Hill bows (for example when I would want to use the fast flight bowstring). And how much does added weight on the tips influence parameters of the bow?

Dun: You have asked a lot of questions, I'll see if I can answer them. I have shot and collected Howard Hill bows over 20 years, so I do have some experience. 1. I think all of the Hill bow models have fiberglass on them today. so the different materials used in the laminations are mostly cosmetic, however I do perfer bamboo (or cane) over anything else. I feel it draws smoother. 2. Altho Craig does use carbon on occassion, the Hill bows are built to Howards spec's and only add price to the bow and a modest amount of performance. 3. I know the brochure says more laminations add to the performance of the bow, but I have not found that to be true. A 3 lam bow will shoot the same as a 5 lam bow as far as I'm concerned. 4. tip overlays will only add weight to the limbs lessening the performance, I believe Craig says a wedge between the lams is all that is needed for fast flight material strings. My experence with fast flight is it adds more noise than speed. Any extra weight to the limb tips will reduce speed of the arrow, only slightly but it is reduced.

Howard always said, a string follow bow was his favorite, and I have to agree, yes they are a bit slower, but much more forgiving to slight shooting errors. I think today's archers seem to get caught up in the speed of the arrow instead of putting the arrow where it belongs in the target. Bob

Howard Hill bows made by Craig are some of the best the company has ever made IMO,and I bought my first in 1977.The number of laminations may have some bearing on smoothness of draw and since fiber glass is used the type of wood doesnt make that much difference.Draw lenght has more to do with speed than materials.The Cheetah is to my mind one of the best,2 lams of Juniper and 2 lams of bamboo.

I pretty much agree with aromakr on just about all points. Good observation re number of laminations and performance. For me, three or four lamination bows seem to draw more smoothly than the 5 lamination models, and I don't notice any difference in performance. If anything, I feel the lower lamination bows are quicker, but that's just my feel. I haven't put them through a chrono. The only thing I disagree with Bob on is a fast flite string. A thinner fast flite type string (I use D-97), 10-12 strands, depending on bow weight, is not only quieter to my ear, it's also noticeable faster than dacron.

My experience with several Hills on my bow rack and different string materials is that I don't find much difference at all in noise or performance and have gone back to dacron strings due to what I believe is an easier string on the bow. I agree with what Bob (aromakr) said. :o)

Agree as well!

Bob's comments are pretty spot on for me too . I use both types of strings , the dacron being quieter I don't feel the need for silencers , the low stretch I seem to notice a tad more twang and as such use silencers ...

I have owned nearly everything Craig offers , including some he doesn't but I just got made in terms of wood combo and IMHO you still can't go past 'boo , yew and elm ... mind you I have a t/d in honey locust that is a sweety

Another Hill Shooter here. I also agree with everything said above.

Dun you need to research your own answers. Some questions you asked have many internal questions. People who use Hill-style bows have evolved to using that style longbow. Their reasons have been for the most part personal, and has been decided by their experience, in archery, and their "evolved knowledge".

Research will let you know that.

Asking "brain heavy" questions will not get you far. Ask simple questions. People who shoot Hill bows will have simple answers .... take my word on that.

Hill bows are scarce in Eastern Europe, because they are American Semi- Longbow design bows. They are not European design in any way. Again, research, research, research FIRST simple questions second ... good luck !

Now c'mon, Ralphie, we shoot simple bows but are we really THAT "simple"? LOL :o)

Ok I take that back.

Some people who shoot simple bows will have complicated and elaborate explanations about how they do what they do.

So asking complicated "brain heavy" questions about simple, instinctive archery, is 100% fine.

I generally agree with the above. Many of us prefer 3 lamination bows like the Tembo model, more bamboo less adhesive. But I see no harm in choosing a wood that suits your eye for the back lamination, under clear glass. There has been little experience so far with carbon backing. I have another bow, the fine 21st Century Edge, with a carbon back. It is a fast and sweet shooting bow, popular in international competition. So I would expect a small benefit in the Howard Hill design. I might get one to find out.

These bows have short risers and long working limbs. The lightness of bamboo and yew seem to provide an advantage over other bow woods. Many of us enjoy the simplicity and durability of these bows and the age old profile they present at full draw, and prefer them to modern designs despite some small performance advantages in the modern ones. - lbg

Dun,

I'm from germany and shoot an american semi flat designed by Peter O. Stecher in cooperation with Craig Ekin from Howard Hill Archery. The bow is manufactured by Manfred Kaufman in Austria. The Model is called LegendStick and has three bamboo lams, black glass on the back, clear glass on the belly, and glass wedges in the tips for fastflight strings. Styrian Archery guaranties that it will shoot a 500 gr. arrow with a speed of (120 + pounds of bow-weight) fps. My LegendStick makes 172 with 48# and a 540 gr. arrow making anyone shooting "european" bows green with envy…

I love my LegendStick for her simplicity, performance and beauty!

Dun, I apologize. My response to your initial question lacked patience.

The recommendation by Fritz above is a good one. If anyone understands the Hill-type bow its's Stecher.

Ralph

I used a HH big 5 to compare speeds of a D-97 string and one of the new skinny strings. The skinny string was 4 ft/sec faster. It was quiet too, but sound is never a problem with these bows.

I have been reading up on the Hill bows. I know I am going to go with one..Leaning towards the Tembo and the Cheetah.Love the Cheetah look..just can't decide.No one in my neck of the woods shoots longbows.Any recommdations would be appreciated?

Cheetah

If you have time don't forget about David Miller. He has some models like what John Schultz made and some models that are called concave convex like Hill made for himself. Note what I was refering to is the cross section of the limbs not how the bow looks unstrung.

Miller's all bamboo bow sure is the rolls royce of american semi flats!

1) What are the differences in use of bamboo, yew or other types of wood in the limbs of Howard Hill bows. What is an impact on parameters like speed and handshock?

The main thing to understand about these bows is that the section is deep. This increases the loading on the outermost area of the limbs and determines than inner layers have little effect on the stiffness of the limb, other than as spacers/compression. Having said that, everything changes something. Just consider what the characteristics of the wood are, and how they affect the particular segment of the limb, given it's function. Compression vs tension, neutral axis vs surfaces, weight, etc...

" Or if there are materials like fibreglass and carbon on Howard Hill bow, do those materials highly reduce the impact of various types of wood, and has these woods then mostly cosmetic meaning?"

Glass is very close to wood in capabilities, it is just a lot stronger. But weight to stiffness wise, it plays in the same park. Earlier Hill bows use relatively little glass, so wood tends to play some role. Carbon is way out there. It is significantly stiffer than wood, so it changes the whole equation, does a lot of work, and really requires a complete limb rethink.

2) I noticed, that carbon is little used in Howard Hill bows unlike other types of longbows. Why is it so?

I don't know for sure, but I think that for some time now, Hills have not been made by a lot of boyers (this has changed); and until recently carbon was no used in all that many bows, FITA bows even, used it mainly in torsion. And the kind of folks who shoot Hills don't seem to crave carbon, aluminum risers, centershot, etc...

3) What are the differences in parameters of the Howard Hill bow when there is carbon and fibreglass in the limbs or if there is only fibreglass or neither?W hen there are more plates (segments) of one type of wood on the bow. How does it influence parameters of Howard Hill bows? Considering larger work during the production and higher price it can be assumed that higher number of plates (segments) is an advantage. It is possible that higher number of plates can eliminate potential defects in used material but on the other hand more adhesive can make the limbs heavier. Where is the truth?

Allows one to use the features of different woods in a limb where they do most good, but this only works if the species is varied in the bow, or stock culled. There are some structural advantages. Mainly I think the original hills were laminated out of multiple layers of bamboo, which has a narrow power fiber band, so many layers are required to make a thick limb. And that structure was just perpetuated in the newer bows. I don't think it hurts anything. Assume the glue increases weight but not stiffness. Ok, that is bad, but it ads toughness, and that could be good. Just have to account for whatever.

4) Is it necessary to strengthen the tips of the Howard Hill bows (for example when I would want to use the fast flight bowstring). And how much does added weight on the tips influence parameters of the bow?

Same as any other bow.

Howdy Dun,

Let me preface my comments with the fact that I'm not new to traditional archery, but new to the Hill world (2 years experience). I do A LOT of research. I've spoken with many Hill enthusiasts, scoured the internet regarding Hill and his bows and read many books and continue to do so. I'm addicted to the Hill-style American Semi-longbow at this point. I can't break the habit. You will learn a tremendous amount from the experienced Hill owners around here and other places on the internet.

First I want to address your question regarding the impact of limb materials on "handshock". I don't think the type of material used has anything to do with what you feel in your hand when the shot is taken. In my opinion "handshock" is the result of using an improper grip with a Hill-style Semi-long. If you're getting buzzed in the hand you aren't gripping the bow correctly. Grip is absolutely critical if you want to get everything out of a Hill that you can. That includes stability, accuracy and pleasure. I'm not the only guy who thinks this way as I've spoken to quite a few Hill enthusiasts who agree completely. That said this is assuming the bow is built correctly by an experienced Hill bowyer and that the tillering is correct. I'm sure that if something is off with the build you'll feel it whether your grip is perfect or not.

As far as carbon goes, I've only owned one Craig Ekin Hill that had it. It was his reflex/deflex Badger, so I can't say whether it adds to performance or not. I do feel that carbon is really unnecessary due to the added expense and it sort of diminishes the nostalgic effect of shooting a Hill Semi-long. I'm sure that using it doesn't hurt the bows performance, it's just not for me.

Adding additional laminations (plates) to the limbs to increase performance is always up for debate. More lams may increase speed and cast, but it may also negatively impact smoothness of draw. All that glue must impact the limb to some degree. But one thing is for sure. As with anything the more parts/pieces that make up the whole the more chance there is for one of those parts to fail. Are five lams better than three? Who knows? I have shot 3-5 lam bows and haven't had any failures and haven't been able to tell the difference in performance or smoothness.

Like arowmkr I believe all of the bows coming out of Craig Ekin's shop are faced belly and back with fiberglass. I have not shot any all wood bows, but I have shot a bow with glass only on the back. Was it smoother? Maybe? Fiberglass certainly adds stiffness to the limbs. It also is much more stable than raw wood or bamboo and helps reduce limb twisting or warping over time. I don't think that would be an issue though if you care for your longbow properly. I only concern myself with that if I'm looking into purchasing a used all wood or bamboo bow. You never know if the other guy took care of it. One thing is certain though. Once Howard Hill discovered the "advantages" of fiberglass he added it to his bows, never looked back and the rest is history.

Two things you may not have considered yet are bow profile and riser grip shape/size. Both of these parameter have major impacts on the way a Hill Semi-longbow "behaves" and performs:

1) Bow Profile - arowmakr touched briefly on "string follow", which is a profile term. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the terms used to describe the bow's profile when not strung (braced). There are three profiles available, but be aware that not all bowyers offer those profiles and not all bowyers produce them correctly if they are offered. Here they are and remember this is what the bow looks like when it isn't strung and looking at it from the side. Picture an unbraced longbow standing in a straight up and down (90degree) position with the lower limb tip on the floor:

a) Straight profile - the limbs are just that. Straight from tip to tip through the riser. A straight edge would lay flat along the limbs and riser. b) Backset - the limbs develop from the riser and angle away from the belly of the bow/shooter. From what I've seen the limbs can be relatively straight in that angle or have a gradual or pronounced curvature. Compared to other bows of comparable draw weight the backset bows I've owned seem faster, a little less stable/forgiving and require more strength/energy to initiate the draw since there is already significant tension on the string. c) String follow or bellyset - this is basically the opposite of backset with the limbs developing from the riser and angling towards the belly/shooter. The string follow bows I own all possess a gradual curve in the limbs. In a fiberglass faced bow the string follow is induced during the build on the bow form. When longbows are all wood/bamboo there is a tendency for the limbs to "take a set" towards the belly naturally over time. In Howard's opinion string follow bows are inherently more forgiving. They also require less energy/strength to initiate the draw due to the reduced tension on the string. This makes them draw more smoothly in my opinion. I agree with arowmkr when he said they are slower, but much more forgiving and pleasant to shoot. Any bows I have built from now on will likely be string follow.

2) Riser Grip Size/Shape - In my experience this is THE most important thing to consider in a bow build because it directly impacts the shooter's ability to properly grip the bow. Like I said earlier, proper grip is critical if you want to enjoy shooting an American Semi-long and shoot it accurately. I have small hands (I wear a medium shooting glove) and my fingers are rather short and stubby. I have only owned used Hills so none of them were built specifically to my specifications. Therefore the riser grips are all shaped a little differently and sized differently. Nothing ever seemed to fit my hand just right. All my riser grips are a little too big for my hands. The other day I received a longbow built by John Lee probably in the 1970s. Mr. Lee was taught by Howard and built the last three bows Howard had made before he died in 1975. My Lee bow is 64" long, 40#@26". Well this bow was obviously built for someone with hands just like mine. The riser grip fits me perfectly. If you look at photos of Howard shooting you will notice the way his fingers wrap around the grip. This is very clear in Ron LaClair's photo of Howard kneeling and drawing in the link below. Look closely at his bow hand. His thumb lays parallel to the upper horizontal axis of the leather wrap. The length of his thumb is basically equal to the depth of the riser grip. His fingers wrap around the grip in this fashion: his index and middle finger fall just below the tip of his thumb and they appear to be quite relaxed. They are secondary to the strength of the grip. His ring finger and little (pinky) finger are the primary fingers used in the grip. Notice that they grip further around the riser grip and protrude beyond the index and middle finger. Obviously he is holding on tighter with these two fingers. This is where Howard's "grip the bow like a suitcase" reference comes into play. When you pick up a suitcase the weight bears down on your ring and pinky fingers, not on your index and middle. This is all about stability and torque reduction/elimination. Thanks to Nate Steen of Sunset Hill for making me think more critically about grip. The reason I mention this and my John Lee bow is that once you find a correctly sized riser grip for your hand and employ the Hill grip method properly you're shooting will improve drastically. The first day I shot the Lee bow I corrected my grip form, had a Robin Hood around 8AM and around 1130AM shot my first rabbit with the longbow. I just knew I was going to hit him. A bow feeling good in the hand will also increase your shooting confidence.

Good luck, Dun. Definitely look into the LegendStick longbows. They look good.

Sorry to be so long winded, but so many folks have helped me here that I like to pay forward as they say.

The link for Ron LaClair's photo didn't post. Here it is. The photo is about half way down the page.

http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm? forum=23&threadid=240118&messages=87&CATEGORY=9#3277339

This link should take you right to the picture. Sorry. I've been awake since 3AM :)

http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm? %20forum=23&threadid=240118&messages=87&CATEGORY=9#3276201

Thank you very much for all answers and counsels. My complicated questions stem from fact, that I use longbow slightly R/D with carbon on both sides (back and belly). This bow has really good parameters. Another fact is, that Czech bowyers don´t have much experience and long tradition with bamboo and yew. I also wasn´t able to assess whether using no carbon in Howard Hill bows has own fundamental reasons. (I don´t insist on it, I can venerate a tradition) Howard hill bows engaged me a lot with its simplicity and beauty and I want to try some Hill bow (Miller,Craig) in the future. Once more thank to all of you. Dun

Glad we were of some help Dun. If you are used to shooting an R/D longbow with carbon, an all bamboo or yew American Semi- longbow (with or without fiberglass) will be a bit different in some aspects. For instance I don't think you'll see the same arrow speed with a Hill that you do with a carbon limbed R/D. That said it is a tried and true design that has taken thousands of game animals and won many archery tournaments worldwide. You are correct in saying it is a simple and beautiful design, which is what draws me and many others to this style.

Just out of curiosity what is the limb core material on your R/D bow? Is it foam, wood, other material? Yes carbon is used by Craig Ekin on occasion. It seems to be an option that is requested by customers, why I don't really know. Like I said in my previous post I can't imagine it would add much performance wise, just ups the cost, and in my opinion detracts from the tradition of the American Semi-long. However, if you want to try it out in a Hill, call Craig. I'm pretty sure David Miller would reject any request to use it. He's a purist from what I've heard and seen in his bows that I own. No matter who you choose make sure it's a bowyer that specializes in Hill-style longbows, like those mentioned above. There are a few other guys out there building them that have years of experience too, but I wouldn't go with a bowyer that just started or builds a few of them from time to time.

If you can pass on the carbon, I would seriously consider looking on the used market for a Craig built Tembo or Big 5. Now I know most guys here in the USA won't ship overseas because it tends to be a hassle. But you might find someone that will do it. In my searches for used bows, which I do all the time, I find that a used Tembo or Big 5 can be had for $350-400 (US dollar). There are severak of them out there right now if you take the time to look. This would save you about $200-$250 versus a new bow and you'll be able to see if you like it. Also, Hills seem to hold their value very well and re-sell pretty easily. Again, good luck and keep asking questions.

hey Dun dont forget to at least look at David Millers HH style bows, he makes a true american semi long trained by John Shulz who learned from ol Howard himself. David makes a superb bow. attention to detail is A1+ I have his "Old Tom" model shoots fast feels and looks superb. I have found both David Miller and Craig of HH archery both to be easy to talk with and very helpful . Good advise by the guys here above too. Good Luck Happy Shooting ,Ken

http://www.millerlongbow.com/

http://www.howardhillarchery.com/

Great post Mikebiz! Long but very appreciated it for a first time Howard Hill bow under consideration. Emailing Craig and working out the details and I found it most helpful along with all you other guys contributions. Just joined so hey and thank you to you all.

This is one of the best written and thoughtful threads on this site that I have seen. Thank you folks.

I second that Scoop! I have had seven 66” to 68” and currently have a JD Berry and a Northern Mist. And have never been as consistent as I would like to be.

But this thread has touched on a couple points (particularly about the grip) Thai really didn’t understand.

One of the best threads I’ve read here, in my opinion as well. Gary

My thoughts are the same as aromakr's.

Over the years it seems to me that there is not much difference in the performance of the various models, and that it is mostly a matter of cosmetic taste. I favor the original bamboo, or yew, and the three lams of the Tembo design, more bamboo.less glue.

It still seems that tip overlays are not needed and that any modern string material is fine, and that the modern ones are a bit quicker and to my ears quieter.

Some modern designs of recurves and more technical longbows clearly benefit from carbon backs, rather than fibreglas. I have not seen much evidence that it matters in Hill bows.

So I think you could get whichever model suits your eye, and whichever grip. Just get a 68 or 70" one which has been the norm. More of these have been made than any other design, by far, by many bowyers,

I have owned and shot dozens of bows, longbows and recurves and several Hiil bows. I never bonded so well with any but two from Howard Hill Archery. One in my prime drew 50", the current one in my declining years 35". It is as simple as that. - lbg

"Some modern designs of recurves and more technical longbows clearly benefit from carbon backs, rather than fibreglas."

Interesting. We used to have discussions on this back in the days that Adcock hung around here. I once said to him offline that all his ACS design did was slightly slightly lighten the limb, and that if archery companies would just work on the problem and make linear carbon limbs, he would be out of business. He winked back.

But the reality is that carbon has not dominated in any meaningful way. Carbon in arrows or fishing poles is largely dominant, in bows it never really takes off. Most of the carbon use on ILF bows seems to be detailing. And you will see the bow backed with carbon but then some fancy wood and clear glass on the face. And mostly is is bias carbon which is silly. It is mostly a fashion statement. Which is mostly what modern custom bows are. The day where custom bows were sold on performance is gone.

In fact, I was looking to purchase some Uukha limbs, and I checked out the specs. There was a warning that the 300 dollar on sale limbs I was looking at had the same performance as wood glass limbs of high spec. They have advantages in the process, but they were not claiming higher performance.

Back in the early days of carbon limbs 20 years ago (when they were moving from uni diagonal carbon cored, glass backed limbs, to actually trying to improve the performance on energy transfer, one could noodle the bad strategies out. These days, I don't know what is in these newer limbs, but the hope of a breakthrough seems largely still out of reach.

I’ll help…. Cheetah

If you have already registered, please

sign in now

For new registrations

Click Here