I recently posted a thread titled “33# and 330gr”. That got me thinking about whether draw weight or arrow speed is better indicator of a bow’s effectiveness for hunting. My 33@28 BW shoots a 330gr arrow 165-167 fps at my 27” draw length. A Hill style longbow or a self bow might shoot the same arrow slower even if it has a heavier draw weight. An ACS would probably shoot the same arrow at my draw length 10-15 fps faster. A self bow would probably be even slower than my BW. I’m sure there have been a few people out there who have performed similar tests. My 33@28 BW with a 330gr arrow is over 10grpp at my draw length. Has anyone reading this done any testing to compare different types of bows with an arrow weighing 10grpp or more?

Arrow speed is the end result of the amount of energy that is applied to the arrow regardless of the draw weight.

Folks have, but anecdotal, not comprehensive. Generally, with the same grains of arrow weight per pounds of bow weight, bows of similar design will shoot about the same speed, regardless of bow weight However, design is a big factor. Some bows designs are just more efficient than others, i.e., they're faster, shooting the same gpp.

Speed is good, IMO, but not at the expense of too light arrow weight. A ping pong ball hitting your windshield at 65 mph will probably bounce off, not so a stone of the same size.

If you watch utube videos of wheelie shooters, you'll notice that they often get very poor penetration on large animals like elk. They're shooting very fast arrows, often times twice as fast as stick bow shooters. But they're also shooting very light arrows and often expanding heads. Most of the arrow's energy is used at impact to open the head. Not much penetration after that.

Orion, I had an A&H ACS a few years ago that was very quick. I bet it would have shot over 15fps faster than my current BW with the same weight arrow.

It's my thinking that an arrow doesn't know what it is shot out of. All that matters is enough speed with adequate arrow weight. Of course, you need to consider tune and acceptable trajectory, etc., and a few other factors of course.

If you do the energy foot pounds formula all other things being equal mass wins . Not by a lot though. I have tested a lot of 32 lb. bows at my draw weight with a 375 gr arrow. All shot in the low 150's.Target shooting. If I would hunt white tail with one of those bows I would shoot no less than a 400 gr arrow.

I'm going to sound a little old fashioned and say that 330 gr arrow is too light for hunting anything of any size like a deer or antelope. I base this on my past as I used to hunt with a compound using a 440 gr arrow at around 270fps. I will tell you that I had very few pass through shots on deer, antelope or turkey's. I killed animals but hardly ever did the arrow completely exit the animal. Then I switched to hunting with a 50lb recurve and using a 500 gr arrow. If I remember correctly I think the first five deer I killed with that bow were complete pass throughs with good blood trails. So to me your slow 330 gr arrow is good for small game like rabbits or squirrels. For me to think about hunting deer sized animals at the slow speeds our bows produce I would need at least 440 gr and hopefully about 10-15 fps faster than than your getting now. As for target and small game I'd say go for it, but not bigger game animals. If you are thinking of hunting with that weight try a heavier arrow and see what the trajectory difference is at around 15 yards? I don't think it the extra weight will effect it as much as you think. I told you I was going to sound old fashioned. :)

"Arrow speed is the end result of the amount of energy that is applied to the arrow regardless of the draw weight"

Yep, it's not about the bow but the arrow, the projectile is what is doing the penetration...

Due to some of the more modern developments in longbow and recurve design draw weight is becoMing a less than reliable indicator of performance.

As the OP stated, his ACS was by his estimation 15 fps. faster than his current bow shooting the same arrow. That equates to shooting a bow 12-15 lbs. heavier in draw weight. That being the case think how much faster that same bow would shoot the arrow than a straight end longbow, a self bow, etc.

And while momentum is important a 500 gr. arrow traveling 175fps. from a 50lb. bow is going to produce more momentum than the same arrow traveling 150 fps. from a straight end Longbow.

RayJ, I have done a fair amount of shooting with a chrono. My draw is just a touch over 27, and I mark my arrows to make sure I do not do something funky in draw before release. As others have said. Bows of similar design and materials all seem to shoot within a few FPS of each other given the same GPP of arrow weight. Draw length, draw weight, materials, designs.... The list can go on but back to the facts. At a certain draw length and weight the design of the bow only has so much energy available. The main difference we seem to get held up on is the available kinetic energy, which heavily favors speed, or Momentum which favors mass. In those two different measurements you get the real answer.

-Bones

From my very limited understanding. Brace Height also play a roll in how fast an arrow is. That with a higher brace height, the arrow stay on the string shorter then a low brace height setting. Example, the same bow tuned for 7in BH and 8in BH will produce different arrow speeds due to that extra inch of energy being transferred to the arrow. But that extra speed come at a cost of forgiveness and other aspects.

Yeah HuumanCreed, that was my understanding too... I think it was in one of Asbell's books he said to have the lowest brace just above felt hand shock to receive the best performance...

Bow weight shouldn’t be in the equation, FPS x arrow weight is all that matters.

I understand that, in theory, a lower brace height should offer improved performance but it seems to me that is a tiny improvement that would only be seen by shooting through a chronograph. We aren't talking about inches different in brace height, in most cases it's a half inch or less, seldom reaching one inch. It's quite likely that inconsistent form or a poor release could influence the speed more than the brace height difference.

I like to find a happy medium between speed and arrow weight. Most of the time I use an arrow weight that is 9 to 10 grains per pound of bow weight.

“If you do the energy foot pounds formula all other things being equal mass wins . Not by a lot though.”

But if you do the momentum calculation, Mass wins… in a WALK.

So any given bow has better potential for lethality with a heavier arrow…. Right up to the point where you start missing because your trajectory is too loopy to hit with.

Really, the draw weight on a bow only tells you whether a given archer will be able to pull it or not; that’s the power Input. If you want to know if you can hunt with it, you need to know the Output.

Rayj. Yes. That's my point. Bows of the same design will shoot relatively close together, given the same gpp arrow, but you're talking two different designs, one is more efficient than the other.

That's among the observations the op was offering, and thus suggesting that arrow speed is a better indicator of performance (arrow speed/penetration) than bow weight. I agree with that as long as arrow weight doesn't become too light. Without arrow weight in the equation, arrow speed alone can be misleading.

Oops. You're the op.

'Without arrow weight in the equation, arrow speed alone can be misleading.'....yep....

Great discussion. I’ve seen it mentioned that my 330 gr arrow is too light for deer and I need 400gr or more. Will 70gr really make that much of a difference. I plugged some numbers in a KE calculator and my 330 arrow going 165fps will have very similar KE as an arrow 500gr going 135fps. The heavy arrow would drop like a rock. I tried an arrow weighing almost 500gr out of my 33# bow and the trajectory was unacceptable for my tastes.

Great discussion. I’ve seen it mentioned that my 330 gr arrow is too light for deer and I need 400gr or more. Will 70gr really make that much of a difference. I plugged some numbers in a KE calculator and my 330 arrow going 165fps will have very similar KE as an arrow 500gr going 135fps. The heavy arrow would drop like a rock. I tried an arrow weighing almost 500gr out of my 33# bow and the trajectory was unacceptable for my tastes.

You wouldn't have to go to a 500 grain arrow. That's about 19 gpp at your draw length. I shoot arrows in the 11-12 gpp range most of the time, but have stepped up to 14 gpp for larger critters like elk. At those weights, i don't find much difference in drop at 15 yards. Becomes more prominent at 20 yards, and drops fairly substantially after that.

You might experiment a little with different heavier arrow weights to find a heavier weight that also satisfies your trajectory need. I'm sure you're heard the phrase, "shoot as much bow as you can comfortably handle." In this case, it might be, "shoot as much arrow as you can tolerate." Good luck.

Sounds like ballistics...

In a sense, yes ballistics. But not with a coefficient for the amount of foot pounds a projectile exerts when it expands like a bullet. That is, the amount of energy directly transferred from the projectile into the target upon impact. After further reading the thread, I sort of agree. Almost. I am by no means a physicist, or engineer. But there is a law of diminishing returns. For the OP a 33# bow will only create so much available energy. I believe there is NO discrepancy there, and when shot accurately with a well tuned arrow can be very lethal. What I don't like is the quick solution of heavier is better for arrow weight. If the thought that the heavier arrow is ALWAYS more lethal, than you would be able to shoot a ship anchor out of a 5# draw weight bow and make it work. I know that is an extreme example, but it gets the point. Not only do you pass a thresh hold at some grain weight, but you also give up a LOT of trajectory as RayJ stated, " The heavy arrow would drop like a rock."

Maybe you do gain SOME momentum by adding mass but that mass adversely affects the speed. Which is visibly seen by the trajectory. It's not all about either, speed nor mass. It is about the balance. What is that midpoint 8,9,15 grains per pound of draw weight?? That is all in the mind and hands of the shooter. I highly dislike the 15 grains per pound idea out of a 45 lb bow. BUT that is my opinion. Other's will say they have made that combination work. I don't mind that same arrow weight out of a 60ish pound bow, but now we are back close to 10GPP. RayJ I do hope you have found some useful information in the thread. I think there is always something to glean. :-)

-Bones

fdp, there isn’t much difference in KE or momentum between a 330gr arrow and a 400gr arrow. A little more momentum but I’m not sure it’s enough to sacrifice trajectory. I haven’t decided yet on a hunting arrow for sure. I do know that I love how these 330gr arrows are flying. I will definitely shoot them most of the time, especially for 3D. They are over 10grpp. It wouldn’t be hard to cut an inch off the shaft and put a 175gr BH on a few arrows just for hunting. Anyway, I appreciate the input and the charts.

I personally like 10-11 gpp from my 63-67# bows. 12-13 gpp starts to slow things down. Even with my 71# longbow I like to stay just under 13 gpp.

If you’re shooting 3D and target and not hunting with that setup, go lighter and flatter shooting.

From my experience, there is A LOT to be said about arrow set-up and extreme FOC.

To answer the question the OP asked- - have I tested different bows w arrows 10gpp or more--- yes. My testing has been imited to r/d longbows compared to recurves. The The Toelke Chinook gave me the highest boost in speed over the r/d longbow which was 8fps if I remember correctly. But I prefer the r/d longbows and just shoot them better. I'm not after speed and often adjust my arrow weight to be on the heavier side as I find they shoot where I'm looking out to 25 yds--- I have to stack at 30 yds, but we rarely have targets that far at our 3 d shoots. Most of the points are picked up between 17-22 yds. Shoot me a pm if I can provide more detail on what Ive found trajectory -wise w different weight arrows.

"Bow weight shouldn’t be in the equation, FPS x arrow weight is all that matters."

That's really the crux of it.

An overlooked aspect of penetration is resistance at the point of impact. Higher resistance equals less penetration and resistance increases somewhat exponentially as speed increases.

I have chronoed every bow I have rver owned. I only have one bow at any given time that I shoot. My current bow is a 33@28 BW PCH as I have said. Over the years I have owned many different bows. At my 27” draw and an arrow from 9-11grpp, I shoot in the 150’s to low 170’s depending on arrow weight and bow design. I had an A&H ACS that was the fastest bow I ever owned and I actually couldn’t shoot it well so I didn’t have it long. I’ve tried various longbows over the years and most of them were a little slower than my BW’s. I always ended up back to shooting a BW recurve. I just shoot them better. They are smooth on the draw. I’ve had several R/D longbows that had a harsh draw cycle that I didn’t like. I think my eyes and mind have adjusted to an arrow speed in the mid to high 160’s and anything outside of that range, high or low, is difficult for me to adjust to. That’s why I’m really hoping that my 330gr arrow going 165fps will be adequate for whitetail.

Ray. Guess you'll just have to try it and see how it works. Your arrow is on the light side, but Texas deer aren't very big either. Stick with broadside shots at fairly close range and I think you'll be fine.

RayJ, just one last thought on your set-up. IF you have the availability I would suggest trying to hunt some pigs through the warm months with that combination. Try to avoid shots into the "shield" (it absolutely does exist on larger boar hogs), but gestimate some in the 100-150 lb range and shoot them just a touch back from what you would a whitetail. Providing the arrow/broadhead combination works there I would have little hesitation on our whitetail deer. Of course shot placement is the most critical, and depending on what you contact coming in and going out will most likely be the biggest concern with a 33# bow. If I missed it, I apologize, but what broadhead are you planning on shooting with the 330 grain arrows?

-Bones

Just thinking about your setup and in my opinion, along with and as important as arrow selection, I would recommend this approach to gain power stroke. First, lower your brace as much as you’re comfortable with, then lower it more and get comfortable with it. Second, look at your physical stature as it relates to your shooting style; try high wrist, head back, shooting inside the bow style to gain draw length. As far as power stroke is concerned it can be stated that one can never have too much of a good thing.

"I recently posted a thread titled “33# and 330gr”

I would say my target is 45# and 600gr. Better at 52# and 620 gr . . . but that is splitting hairs.

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