Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Arrow spine and ASL

Messages posted to thread:
Boker 04-Mar-24
RiverRat 04-Mar-24
the Black Spot 04-Mar-24
CHICKENFOOT 04-Mar-24
aromakr 04-Mar-24
fdp 04-Mar-24
RiverRat 04-Mar-24
thehun 04-Mar-24
Boker 04-Mar-24
M60gunner 04-Mar-24
Boker 04-Mar-24
Andy Man 04-Mar-24
fdp 04-Mar-24
Orion 04-Mar-24
Boker 04-Mar-24
2 bears 04-Mar-24
RiverRat 04-Mar-24
fdp 04-Mar-24
bodymanbowyer 04-Mar-24
Orion 04-Mar-24
Linecutter 04-Mar-24
aromakr 04-Mar-24
Andy Man 04-Mar-24
B.T. 04-Mar-24
Boker 04-Mar-24
flint kemper 04-Mar-24
Candyman 04-Mar-24
Ray Lyon 04-Mar-24
TradToTheBone 04-Mar-24
bentstick54 04-Mar-24
shade mt 05-Mar-24
bentstick54 06-Mar-24
fdp 06-Mar-24
wwflyman 06-Mar-24
shade mt 07-Mar-24
Buckdancer 07-Mar-24
Onehair 07-Mar-24
RiverRat 07-Mar-24
bentstick54 07-Mar-24
fdp 07-Mar-24
From: Boker
Date: 04-Mar-24




My ASL is a st patick that’s cut to center.

It’s roughly 45lbs at 29” draw. D-97 string.

I ordered some cedar shafts/ builder recommended 60/64 with 160gr point weight. 30.5 to back of point , this was a hunting arrow

Builder is well know and a great guy. Not going to mention his name because I am sure the error is on my end.

If spine isn’t correct I likely gave him the wrong info.

However had trouble getting consistent accuracy with them so switched over to some micro 500 spine carbons with 200gr points. Also 30.5”

Accuracy improved substantially.

I really want to shoot woods for 3d and hunting.

Does the 60/64 seem to correct to yall?

Any thoughts on why the carbons seem to fly better?

From: RiverRat
Date: 04-Mar-24




Your wood arrows sound way stiff to me.

But then again, an ASL is never cut to center in the first place. So you kinda have a strange bird there to try and recommend a shaft for.

From: the Black Spot
Date: 04-Mar-24




You could try 200 gr on the woodies?

From: CHICKENFOOT
Date: 04-Mar-24




My saint asl 49 @ 30 not cut to center 60/65 were to stiff by a little 500 carbons 200 up front right on 31 in if that helps

From: aromakr Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 04-Mar-24




First off accuracy has nothing to do with spine !

If they consistently shoot left (right hand shooter) they are too stiff, if they print right from point of aim they are weak.

As far as the spine recommended to you he is right on.

Comparing woods to carbons is like comparing apples to oranges.

Bob

From: fdp
Date: 04-Mar-24




"consistent accuracy"...so that deserves further explanation. What was inconsistent and what did you try to make them consistent?

Like with any other shaft material, if you are going to shoot wood you should have a test kit until you get them figured out based on YOUR dynamics.

From: RiverRat
Date: 04-Mar-24




"First off accuracy has nothing to do with spine"

I don't know about all that.

It's sure easier to hit what you're aiming at when an arrow isn't bouncing off the riser....

From: thehun
Date: 04-Mar-24




"Any thoughts on why the carbons seem to fly better?" because carbon is more precise than wood?

From: Boker
Date: 04-Mar-24




Fdp.

Shot the wood shafts for over a month now. I struggled with just overall accuracy. Meaning groups were spread out over the target. With a mix of good bad and ugly. blaming myself and still do however when I switched to the carbons there was a noticeable difference in the consistency of good shots and group size has become much smaller.

I am not blaming the wood arrows but there’s a difference and i haven’t changed anything else. just trying to figure out what it is.

You suggested a test kit which I may very well do but how many times has it been said on this page when discussing wood arrows that correct spine can be accurately achieved by using a spine chart and knowledgeable arrow builder.

I did that and there’s an obvious difference in my group sizes by a simple change among the two arrows.

Bob seems to agree with the spine suggested so why can I shoot one arrow much better than the other?

From: M60gunner
Date: 04-Mar-24




I assume you spun each arrow to see if they are straight? Only reason I can think of especially with wood arrows.

From: Boker
Date: 04-Mar-24




M60gunner

I haven’t spun tested the arrows but would be a good idea. have order arrows from this builder before and they have always been top notch.

From: Andy Man
Date: 04-Mar-24




spine sounds like what I would pick for your set up I shoot the same spine with a shorter arrow and a heavier bow so it evens out

From: fdp
Date: 04-Mar-24




So it sounds like you were more or less spraying arrows with no real consistent issue..is that correct? Not all shots were going left of the mark and not all shots were going right of the mark?

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 04-Mar-24




First, did you check the spine when you received the arrows? A lot of vendors don't send exactly what they say they do. Second, what is the diameter of the shafts? If they're 23/64, and truly are 60-64 spine, they may be a bit stiff.

A 500 carbon is about 63# spine so spine wise they're about the same. However, the carbon shaft is a lot skinnier, placing the center of the shaft closer to the center of the bow, which means it doesnt' need to bend as much to pass cleanly, i.e., it can be a little stiffer.

From: Boker
Date: 04-Mar-24




Fdp

Yes basically, now when I say spraying arrows, not talking missing the target. More as 8” groups with the woodies to 4” groups with the carbons between 20-30 yards.

The main point I am stressing is the carbons are just significantly more consistent in group size.

Sure it’s more me than anything else however it’s still a real issue and if the spine is correct on the woodies which several seem to think is. why am I seeing the difference.

Again the arrow build isn’t a jack leg. I trust his arrows are built correctly. However if I had a spine tester etc it be worth double checking them but I don’t.

From: 2 bears
Date: 04-Mar-24




How is the nock fit on the string? >>>-----> ken

From: RiverRat
Date: 04-Mar-24




"A 500 carbon is about 63# spine so spine wise they're about the same."

Isn't a 500 more like a 52# spine?

From: fdp
Date: 04-Mar-24




"Isn't a 500 more like a 52# spine?"....no, not when converted to wood arrow spine.

So this is a REALLY tough one to answer. Arrows that are all within the same reasonable spine and weight parameters will all group together. That group just may not be where you want it to be if the are too stiff, or too soft.

There is no reason to believe that a well made and matched set of wood arrows won't group tighter than the 8" that the OP gave as an average. Because they will.

Unless there is some kind of consistent feedback....in all honesty I don't really know how to suggest you fix it.

Nock fit is something to consider though for sure.

That seems the only thing that could cause consistent accuracy with one set of arrows and inconsistent groups and accuracy with another.

From: bodymanbowyer
Date: 04-Mar-24




Spin test, nock fit brace height could be different between wood and carbon. To stiff. Are you actually drawing what you say. Maybe you are short drawing some. JF

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 04-Mar-24




Rriver Rat: a .500 deflection on a spine tester using a 2# weight with posts 26 inches apart, the traditional method for determining wood spine, is 52#. However, spine on carbons is used following Easton's formula, a 1.94# weight on posts 28 inches apart. A .500 -inch deflection there yields a spine of about 63#.

From: Linecutter
Date: 04-Mar-24




Nock alignment to the shaft maybe part of the problem. I have some hickory arrows (7 out of 12 of them) that for what ever reason, just forward on the arrow nock developed a warp (impossible to get out). Because of that, it cocked the arrow nock not allowing a straight in line push forward with the string. Depending on the warp the arrow was being pushed up, down, or to the sides depending on the warp. Each arrow would not fly well and had very poor accuracy when shot. With other shafts NO issue. I was frustrated and it took me a little while to FINALLY figure out what was going on. That is why you always want the straightest end of the shaft to have the nock placed. DANNY

From: aromakr Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 04-Mar-24




David: As you probably know, spine correctness is determined by where the arrow prints on the target, when shooting at a vertical line on the target and sighting down the arrow shaft while placing the arrow on that vertical line. For a right handed shooter if the arrows print to the left of the line spine is too stiff and vice versa weak to the right of said line. Thats all spine does, nothing more or less!!! Group size is either tune (that includes nock set height, nock tightness to string, brace height) or (Inconsistent form).

Bob

From: Andy Man
Date: 04-Mar-24

Andy Man's embedded Photo



what Bob is saying

From: B.T.
Date: 04-Mar-24




If not 60-64 then 55-59 you must be close with a D97 string.

From: Boker
Date: 04-Mar-24




Ok guys. Appreciate the responses.

As said I am sure the arrows are built correctly and if spine is within parameters I should be able to get some type of consistent readings.

It’s bound to be an issue with me. Still not sure why I shoot the carbons better but definitely do.

Soon as pretty weather comes around I’ll go back to the woodies and see if anything has changed on my end.

Nock fit,BH , grip pressure etc etc I had played around with.

As fdp said I am certain the cedars can shoot every bit as good as the carbons so definitely not implying ones better than the other.

From: flint kemper
Date: 04-Mar-24




I would echo Bob above. Try a few 125 grain points and see what they do as well.

From: Candyman
Date: 04-Mar-24




Just out of curiosity, did you try shooting bare shafts? I have no experience with wood arrows but I always shoot carbon and aluminum bare shafts when tuning. Even when they look like they are shooting straight at five yards, when you shoot them at twenty yards you can more easily see if they are flying tail left tail right or nice and straight. Just a suggestion.

From: Ray Lyon Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 04-Mar-24




Sounds like arrow build quality on wood arrows is issue. Arrows not grouping tightly in wood arrows and grouping tightly with carbon speaks to poor tolerance in spine and or grain weight. Could also be nock fit. Also nock point should be higher with fatter wood arrows than skinny carbon.

From: TradToTheBone
Date: 04-Mar-24




Micro carbon and 23/64” woodies would seem to require 2 different nock points.

From: bentstick54
Date: 04-Mar-24




If there’s any concern about arrow build quality as several eluded to, number each shaft and keep track of how each individual arrow shoots. If the same arrow shoots to the left side of your 8” group, some consistently to the higher or lower edge of the 8” group etc you can determine whether it’s the arrows or not. If the same arrow shoots to various positions of the group it’s probably not the arrow itself. I would check nock fit and string nock height before changing to much else.

From: shade mt
Date: 05-Mar-24




As you can see, lots of opinions.....

1st...carbons and woods, are more than likely different diameter,and yes it makes a difference.

2nd...just re-read what aromakr posted.

hitting left is stiff, right is weak.

it IS that simple.

From: bentstick54
Date: 06-Mar-24




If it was only a spine issue shouldn’t most arrows tend to group left or right? It was stated that going from a 4” group with carbons to an 8” group with woods.

From: fdp
Date: 06-Mar-24




Yep...

From: wwflyman
Date: 06-Mar-24




Did you align the nock with the grain of the wood arrow

From: shade mt
Date: 07-Mar-24




bentstick. It has kinda been my experience that arrows that are not spined correctly are never as consistent as arrows that are.

Especially with a bow cut before center, adding any error in form occasionally only compounds the problem creating a larger group over all.

they may consistently group left or right, but correcting spine and nock height seems to tighten up the grouping as well.

From: Buckdancer
Date: 07-Mar-24




Don’t bear shaft with wood unless you want to break them

From: Onehair
Date: 07-Mar-24




A couple of observations. Larger diameter shafts require you to raise your knock to eliminate the bounce. I routinely bare shaft woodies. Just not in a target. Shoot in an open area.

From: RiverRat
Date: 07-Mar-24




So spine doesn't matter to accuracy....

But then properly spined arrows group better...

So if you had a bowsight to adjust left and right, you could shoot whatever spine you wanted since spine only determines where arrows hit left to right....

Alright then.

Did anyone tell Easton or Gold Tip?

From: bentstick54
Date: 07-Mar-24




Properly spined arrows are important. But if a dozen arrows are spined the same, but not the proper spine for the bow, would they not react the same coming off the bow? All left, or all right?

Now if the spine of a dozen arrows all vary within that dozen they would all come off that bow in different manners? Group opening up (spreading)?

Wood arrows may be of the correct spine range for a bow, but still have a stiff side to that spine, and if that side is not lined up correctly with nock orientation to to bow, one arrow can shoot stiff, and the next shoot weak.

Wood arrows take a little more care to get to shoot good than carbon. Straightness, nock alignment, point alignment, nock tightness on the string, grain alignment for spine, all things that are taken for granted with carbons.

From: fdp
Date: 07-Mar-24




"But if a dozen arrows are spined the same, but not the proper spine for the bow, would they not react the same coming off the bow?".....yes. You can shoot an entire dozen arrows that are not the proper spine for a bow, but are all matched to each other, into a neat little group. It will be left or right of the aiming point, unless you apply Kentucky windage, but they will all be in a nice little group.





If you have already registered, please

sign in now

For new registrations

Click Here




Visit Bowsite.com A Traditional Archery Community Become a Sponsor
Stickbow.com © 2003. By using this site you agree to our Terms and Conditions and our Privacy Policy