Got some new Beman Centershot 400's and started shooting them. Bow is a Wallace, 51# @ 31", my draw is 31", shaft 400 spine with 175 point up front, 509 grains total shaft weight. Too stiff?, put 200 grains up front and shot weak. I put this velcro on my bow last week and burned it off already. Paint on bow from arrow where the arrow is worn. Bare shaft hitting my hand even. I am now all the way up to 5/8" on my nock set. Elbow is low, shooting a tab, You guys have any thoughts?

Are you shooting 3 under or split and do you put the arrow on top or under the nock locator?

My first guess is that the arrow is sliding down the string at release and bouncing off the shelf hard.

I am inclined to agree with FDP, OR the arrow may actually be to weak and over flexing. That 31" draw is long, and a lot of arrow flex is happening.. I think. The Strike plate does not look worn, only the shelf. So to me that almost rules out stiff. I am definitely not an expert though, so hopefully a few others weigh in.

-Bones

I shoot split and have two nock points. I'm getting baffled on this one. One thing is how close my hand is to the shelf and my fat hand actually puffs up to the same level as the shelf. I'm considering putting something under the velcro to elevate more, But, that does not take away from the extreme wear going on. I tried some 340's with 250 grains up front, but they show stiff. One other thing, I even went to paper tuning on this one. Bare shafts have a 4" straight up slash, when the fletched shoot with no tear from 5 yards out. Arrgggg, too close to hunting for this crap.

I shoot a Jim Brackenbury same weight , draw and arrow set up as yours with 350 arrows. The same thing and worse happens to me with 400s..

Do your bare shafts show perfect left/right flight with the 400's? Mine does. All the charts show I need to shoot 340's, but the 400's with 175 up front are the only ones I could get shooting good as far as side to side.

Use lighter points and/or use a thicker strike plate and I would strongly suggest you stop using fuzzy side Velcro for anything…use the other side or better yet?…Cordovan leather.

I draw 31" and shoot lots of bows that are 48-50lbs at 31". None of my recurves shoot 400s with standard inserts. My morrison max 6 shoots 400s with a 50 grain insert and 125gr points. The shafts are 31.5" long. All other bows shoot 400s with 100gr insert and 125gr points.

I guess I just used the fuzzy side because that is what Wes puts on his bows when he makes them. I could try lighter, but damn, they are straight left to right.

The other issue with this all is the fact I have a hard time getting consistent grouping, and if this is playing into the factor. I have a hard time with good enough is my issue.

Maybe 5/8 ths is not high enough.

MP

Maybe Wes has thoughts to share???

Yes, going to email him. I need a couple strings anyway. As far as higher than 5/8", yes, been going up down, up down. Will go up farther tonight, but just does not seem right?

If your paper tear is straight up and down, you most likely have a nock point issue. Shooting split, you need to lower your nock point.

How's the tiller, just thinkin out loud...

I'm also shooting a Wes Wallace with a similar rest, 47#. I'm shooting .400, 30.5"L with 145 gr points on a 27" draw. They fly great, no issues.

I would try raising the nock up. I shoot split with a nock height of 11/16-3/4.

I have brought it way down to 1/8" above to take that out as much as possible, but the burn gets worse when I do that. I need to check tiller, seems I did but maybe not. Another odd thing when paper tuning, I can get bullet hole with fletched, but still tear the bare shaft? Unless I'm doing something really weird with my string arm on release like tipping up and then around.

I found that the nocks on center shots were slightly tighter than the gold tips I am accustomed to. It wasn't enough to change anything for me, but I could see getting odd results if they are too tight to release cleanly.

"I can get bullet hole with fletched," so are the fletched arrows the ones that are causing the wear on the shelf or the bare shafts?

I'd try 340's. Full length 400s aren't enough for your draw and draw weight, and especially front loaded like you have going.

I’m gonna tell y’all right now… anybody using fuzzy Velcro is going to swear by it for some ungodly reason but the only reason any Bowyer uses that stuff on their bows is because it’s cheaper than Cordovan leather or sealskin and?…they paid for dies to make their dye cut Velcro rests and strike plates which they sell numerous replacements of.

Other than that?…Fuzzy Velcro sux

fdp, It is both. I thought the same, the fletching is hitting my hand, but then shooting the bare shafts, they hit my hand also. Pearl, using 340's with 250 point and 100 grain brass insert I show stiff still. 400's with 145 point and standard insert shows stiff. 400's with 175 grain point and standard insert shows straight? Ya think I'm going a little wacky!!!! going to need a good shrink. If I can shoot during daylight, I am going to have to have someone video my rest and my release. Long draw sucks, I can tell you that much.

Hmmmm......this is a head scratcher.......

This is a puzzle for sure but check that tiller. Then let's start over. >>>----> Ken

The first thing I am going to try is using a 340 shaft and different points to see if maybe it is that since charts show I need 340's and 165 up front (perfect form). Then, check tiller, quit bowhunting and joint PETA.

Left/Right tuning doesn’t mean squat until you get the Up/Down thing sorted out and I don’t care if it’s Wes or Blacktail…I love their bows but hate their grips…I took a right angle sanding disc to the beautiful myrtle Mentor I currently own and then the tuning part became cake and I love the bow…now…just say’in…watch what you’re doing with that grip as I can have you chasing your tail tuning wise…my recommendation?…shoot it high wrist out of the throat so the rest of the grip doesn’t impart a variety of negative influences

How long are your arrows? Reason I ask is because I have a Wes Wallace recurve that is 56#@31".With nothing but velcro on the riser it shoots a 31.5" 400 with standard insert and 125gr point perfectly. I would be surprised if you need a 340 unless you are gonna keep it 32" or longer.

32" shaft. Jinkster, yes, that grip is right there at the shelf. I have issues shooting other bows after shooting it for awhile I believe it is because of that. I'm going to play with my 340's as I said and see what bare shafts show on paper. Damn Bows!!!!

Why do you use two nocking points; could the nock be pinched between them when you draw? Your problem does not sound like a spine issue.

Buddy all you need is a tape or bow square & 2 minutes to check the tiller. That will eliminate one major problem.>>--> Ken

Tiller is good, two nock points far enough apart to have no pinch. Working on it.

Well here is a couple paper tune sheets with 340 spine and 400 spine. 340's with 195 upfront are way stiff and 340's with 300 up front still stiff. The 400's with 125 up front are stiff, 145 up front slightly stiff and with 175 up front perfect. So, now the high tear. I lowered my nock point to approx. 1/8" above parallel and it was the best I could do with paper and bare shaft. I start going lower and the tear would increase from shelf bouncing. Made a couple more adjustments using planing and then threw a couple broadheads down to verify. One issue I found was I was finger pinching the nock more than I should so I focused on that when I shot. As far as the wear on the shelf and hitting my hand, the only thing I believe I can do is put something under the rug to elevate a little. I have a piece of masking tape on that edge and it is already red and worn after 60 +/- shots. As far as paper tuning fingers and bare shaft, not sure how good you can get as far as a nock high tear. I can get bullet holes with fletched arrows. I have to order a couple strings from Wes so I may question him also. Thanks Guys for all your input.

Ok, so I cannot edit for some reason. Those need to rotate 90 deg's!!!

You need to move your nocking point up to about 1 1/4” above the shelf and begin working your way down and don’t e surprised if thing could me together for you at a very high nocking point

The pic's were shot with a nocking point at 5/8". I had to lower it.

You’re getting “A FALSE HIGH” (not much different than “a false weak” when shooting to stiff a spine) where the arrow is bouncing upward off the shelf where going even lower it starts doing crazy stuff like bouncing off your bow hand.

Just try what I’m suggesting…what have you to lose?

I started getting the false high when I got below 1/8" above parallel. I will try it, but the tear gets longer the higher above that I go. But, I never paper tuned my recurves before because of the crazy it becomes.

I had no idea there was so many 31'' draw folks out there,I shoot a mentor 66''54# @ 31.5''with a 7 5/8 to 7/34 brace height,split fingers, no idea what the nock set is at I just eye ball it depending on what I'm shooting,I think I bumped my head but it seems if I shoot a rw or lw shield or parabolic feather,I just set it where the back of the feather is just a tad higher than the shelf,I shoot a full length 2117 with a 145 gr point or 70/75 woods with no issues,I have never shot a carbon arrow so no help there, my bad habits I have when looking for a different arrow when shooting is I have a habit of peeking to watch the arrow fly or canting the bow too much and not coming to full draw,just my two cents,hope it was some help GOOD LUCK Mr

Check your bow tiller, cant imagine it could be that far off but wouldnt hurt checking.

personally i never paper tune. If your finger release is as pefect as a mechanical release, go for it.

or....draw a plumbline up a target, go back 10 yds or a bit more, and just go by point of impact...impact left is stiff....impact right is weak. that should not change even when you back up to 20 or 25 yds.

your shelf shows you have a nock point problem. long carbon arrows with heavy foc will do all sorts of crazy, if your nock point is off and will give you false readings. get that right or it will give you fits.

if you do like i say and get the bare shafts flying right, use a fletched shaft and broadhead, and double check it...if they fly the same your good to go.

i recently tuned some aluminums just like i said....i got them flying straight right out to 20 with no fletching. then i started experimenting with my draw length, release etc...without fletch it wasnt hard to get them flying funny....just saying.

I would put a toothpick or shaft of a Q-tip under the Velcro at the highest point of the shelf and try again. Others have already made some very sound suggestions too.

Well, tried again last night but evidently my wife has a hard time allowing me to shoot? Another issue. Anyway, I have gone through this before trying to bare shaft.

Jinkster, tried the 1-1/4" high thing and the bare shaft hit a foot or more low and nock high at 45+ degs. That was at 10 yards, had to check the arrow after that one.

Where I have it set now bare shaft and fletched hit good, but can't leave the other issues the way they are. Going back to 5/8" nock and just using my BH's to tune. Bare shafts and long draws just don't mix, for me anyway. Bonkers!!!

Have you talked to Wes about it. I bet he has a few good tips that are specifically directed to his bows. I still remember talking to him many years ago about a similar issue and he told me to work on my release. He said he had problems with his release and correcting them solved most of his aero flight issues. Well I took his advice and it worked. To this day I get excellent arrow flight with a setup very similar to yours. I'm currently shooting a Jim Brackenbury Legend but it's basically the same design as Wes's bows. I don't know if it's still the case, but Jim and Wes both used to recommend plain leather for shelf material.

Wes and I have talked, he gave tips and agrees how frustrating it is and what it does to people. Just have to go till something works that is satisfying to you. Wes sends his bows out with the velcro. He sent me some actually after talking with him. Again, I need to get ahold of him for a couple strings.

Well thanks for trying it… when anomalies like this arise?… I resort to the process of elimination and as I recall my Wes Wallace mentor was a bit of a pill to get tuned.

if you look at Wes‘s limb tips?…. he puts quite the power wedge in there where ch I believe has the potential to create a limb tip mass weight imbalance when ch in turn could affect limb timing despite tiller.

Try this…move your upper string silencer downward closer to your center serving…and move your lower strung by silencer lower toward your lower limb tip…this will speed up the lower limb and slow down the upper limb.

Good luck, and FYI, in case you don't know, Linda Brackenbury still sells strings and I think Wes gets his from her as well.

https://www.google.com/url? sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.fa cebook.com/profile.php%3Fid%3D10006702 0949454&ved=2ahUKEwiA1O2etZT6AhWnJ0QIH b7aBEgQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3nP7ay1yP7 AL_ddCtI9uuv

Sorry bad link:

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php? id=100067020949454

Maybe that was a bad one also, you can just Google Linda Brackenbury bow strings

Is this the Partner you posted picture of in Feb? "Smooth as silk, sweet shooter". Just for comparison what were shooting through it then?

Yes, same spine, different shaft. Just noticed that the outer shelf was wearing and started tinkering again which in my case, explodes. I honestly think it is the longer draw thing. I don't have the option to cut shafts for tune, only spine and point weight. I think the longer shafts just causes more of a touchy issue on the paradox. I have these issues with all my bows. Last year I used woodies and could only get 32" length shafts. When you taper for point and nock, you are just over 31" and I had issues with broadheads bumping the front of the shelf if I drew too hard.

Have you tried aluminum? Maybe it will behave better for you at the longer length. Weight is in the shaft so no need to load up point weight. May simplify your setup.

Yes, aluminum. I have 340s (2315) and 400s (2117) aluminums. The 340s which I can get in 32" are stiff. The 400s only come at 31- 3/8" length. It is the dumbest thing ever to me. Why all the 2117 category shafts come only that length is beyond me. Sorry, sore subject. Honestly, my next thing to go to will be footed woodies. I want to get a jig to cut my own and foot them.

If 2117's fly good except accept for length you might be able to add an extension piece at the nock end by connecting with a short section of 1916 shaft if the 400's are not swaged nocks. The little extra weight at tail would probably counter the additional inch in overall length keeping spine about the same. Would seem easier than footing wood. Anyway, enjoy your woodies hope it works out for you.

Try shooting cock feather in.

The only aluminums is I can shoot with that kind of tip weight tip is 2216s or 2219s. Same draw length and beltway is yours.

Bow weight rather, I don't know where that came from.

Assuming a take down bow, make sure your limbs are tight.

So, here where I'm at, done. Thanks to Big Jim's nock point video where at one point said that sometimes bare shafts will not act right and he had no explanation except that they just don't. Then another video that showed a slow motion shot after shot of an arrows action at the shelf, raising the nock point 1mm each time. Eye opening for sure, they stopped at 14mm. I raised mine till I could not feel it brushing my hand. That ended at 3/4" above center. Fletched arrows shot good, BH's shot where the target points were, good!!! I shot a few bare shafts, they hit low and really nock high, but ignored those. Thanks all for your support. Pic, last group at 15 yrds.

LivetoHunt Do you have a link to the slow motion video. Big Jim's nocking point video explains installation but doesn't have any shooting. Interesting that shelf & feathers should show no wear. Thanks >>>----> Ken

Try this. https://nocktopoint.com/2021/03/09/nock-height/

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