Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Wounding Rate of Trad Shooters

Messages posted to thread:
groundhunter50 07-Aug-22
Jeff Durnell 07-Aug-22
monkeyball 07-Aug-22
JusPassin 07-Aug-22
Fritz 07-Aug-22
Witherstick 07-Aug-22
Fields 07-Aug-22
Orion 07-Aug-22
Stan 07-Aug-22
Stix 07-Aug-22
Shawn 07-Aug-22
Corax_latrans 07-Aug-22
Candyman 07-Aug-22
M60gunner 07-Aug-22
babysaph 07-Aug-22
babysaph 07-Aug-22
Doublelung 07-Aug-22
babysaph 08-Aug-22
LBshooter 08-Aug-22
Bassmaster 08-Aug-22
MGF 08-Aug-22
Woods Walker 08-Aug-22
Jinkster 08-Aug-22
monkeyball 08-Aug-22
Live2Hunt 08-Aug-22
Jon Stewart 08-Aug-22
Witherstick 08-Aug-22
tradmt 08-Aug-22
GUTPILEPA 08-Aug-22
Onehair 08-Aug-22
Kelly 08-Aug-22
Gvdocholiday 08-Aug-22
Doc Pain 08-Aug-22
Babysaph 08-Aug-22
Babysaph 08-Aug-22
Doc Pain 08-Aug-22
Shawn 08-Aug-22
2 bears 08-Aug-22
Phil Magistro 08-Aug-22
dnovo 08-Aug-22
Verdeburl 08-Aug-22
babysaph 08-Aug-22
babysaph 08-Aug-22
bradsmith2010santafe 08-Aug-22
monkeyball 08-Aug-22
deerhunt51 09-Aug-22
AK Pathfinder 09-Aug-22
mamba-ny 09-Aug-22
grizz 09-Aug-22
South Farm 09-Aug-22
groundhunter50 09-Aug-22
chickenfoot 09-Aug-22
Nemophilist 09-Aug-22
Babysaph 09-Aug-22
Babysaph 09-Aug-22
Babysaph 09-Aug-22
Will tell 09-Aug-22
tradmt 09-Aug-22
Tedd 09-Aug-22
babysaph 09-Aug-22
Doc Pain 09-Aug-22
Jarhead 09-Aug-22
groundhunter50 09-Aug-22
babysaph 09-Aug-22
David A. 09-Aug-22
Tomas deGato 09-Aug-22
Tomas deGato 09-Aug-22
David A. 09-Aug-22
Babysaph 10-Aug-22
David A. 10-Aug-22
Shawn 10-Aug-22
Beendare 10-Aug-22
Tom McCool 10-Aug-22
Babysaph 10-Aug-22
Foggy Mountain 10-Aug-22
David A. 10-Aug-22
shade mt 11-Aug-22
Supernaut 11-Aug-22
Nemophilist 11-Aug-22
grizz 11-Aug-22
Jeffer 11-Aug-22
Corax_latrans 11-Aug-22
Corax_latrans 11-Aug-22
tecum-tha 11-Aug-22
Jed Gitchel 11-Aug-22
PhantomWolf 11-Aug-22
grizz 11-Aug-22
Missouribreaks 11-Aug-22
Greenstyk 11-Aug-22
Missouribreaks 11-Aug-22
babysaph 11-Aug-22
babysaph 11-Aug-22
Coyote 11-Aug-22
shade mt 12-Aug-22
David A. 14-Aug-22
Jed Gitchel 14-Aug-22
George Tsoukalas 14-Aug-22
Shawn 14-Aug-22
jjs 14-Aug-22
Jinkster 14-Aug-22
crazyjjk 14-Aug-22
lamb 14-Aug-22
From: groundhunter50
Date: 07-Aug-22




I was at a Deer show today, and sat in an outfitters booth for a few hours. There was discussion on wounding deer, and broadheads.

He told me, he loves the traditional bow, and those that choose it. However he said many of those who use that type of bow, have wounded more deer, than he likes, at his camps.

You draw blood, your done,,,,, He said, he is almost to the point, that he really knows who can really shoot one, and keep the shots close.

While there he told potential clients, he does not allow expandable broadheads, no matter what, and does not care who you are...

He said he has had some wonderful trad shooters, with great standards, but the last few years, he said many of them, their broadheads are not sharp, in his opinion, and many should not shoot past 10 steps......

I wonder how common these thoughts are among outfitters,,,,,, and to be honest, we have all wounded deer, not to say they die, but he showed me the records he kept,,,,,,

From: Jeff Durnell
Date: 07-Aug-22




Ok

From: monkeyball
Date: 07-Aug-22




We just went to a 3-D event and I told my buddies I am moving up to killing distance (keeping in line with the direction you were suppose to shoot) on the targets.

Normally I have no issues with shooting from whatever stake we choose, but we are getting close to "up close and personal time" and I don't take far shots when it comes to killing deer.

We did take a couple of shots that were out there, but 90% of mine were taken "in the zone" and I was happy with that.

East coast bowhunting in the early season is especially a close range deal, lots of vegetation in the woods yet, so practicing at those ranges makes total sense.

Also....... the guys that are choosing to get it done with recurves, longbows, and self- bows are not the only ones having some get away.

Good Shooting->->->->Craig

From: JusPassin
Date: 07-Aug-22




Get the popcorn!

From: Fritz
Date: 07-Aug-22




This is a good pot stirring thread. Lol

From: Witherstick
Date: 07-Aug-22




It could be a good pot stirring thread. These usually are.

Soon we will have the “holier than thou” shooters who never make a bad shot and think that only they should be allowed to hunt. Of course we will also get the common sense people who want everyone to do everything to make a good shot and leave it at that. Plus, all the versions in between.

Maybe we will get someone who goes a direction different. I mean many insist that the animals want assurances that every hunter out there should use whatever technology is necessary that the animal has zero chance of surviving the encounter once spotted. Perhaps, someone will ask what would you want if you were being hunted. A hunter using all the latest gear to assure your quick demise or the hunter using more primitive gear that despite his best efforts might wound you but give you more a chance of escape.

At least it would bring a new twist to these threads.

Oh wait….

From: Fields
Date: 07-Aug-22




I see his point.... I hunted with a recurve for over 25 years..... Everytime I went to a shoot, I always thought 80% of the people there should not hunt with a recurve or longbow..

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 07-Aug-22




There were a couple of studies done about 20-25 years ago on wounding loss from bowhunters. One I can document was written up by Roy Marlow for the Dec/Jan 1996 Traditional Bopwhunter.

The gist of it is that trad shooters wounded fewer deer than compound shooters and what he called gadget shooters, compound shooters with sights and triggers. The relationship was linear. Longbow and recurve shooters wounded the fewest animals. Compound shooters were next and gadget shooters wounded the most. (The trad shooters also killed the fewest animals, probably because they limited their range and took fewer shots.) Trad shooters took shorter shots, and their recovery time and distance was less than compound shooters.

Of course, things have changed a bit since then. Compounds have become more sophisticated, but from what I read and see on U-tube, their shot distances are becoming even longer. Of course, super light arrows and expandable heads potentially lead to more wounding regardless of who is using them. Too, there are a lot of bowhunting newbies. Whether they're carrying compounds or traditional bows, many don't have the skill or ethics of earlier hunters. That's not to say that all earlier hunters were very skilled or ethical. There are always some bad actors.

From: Stan
Date: 07-Aug-22




Lose, lose conversation.. I have mercy killed many deer during gun deer season, People thinking they are Carlos Hathcock, doin stupid things.. Here in southern lower Michigan, for me at least, the odds of even seeing a person with a recurve or especially a longbow are right up there with a lightning strike..

From: Stix
Date: 07-Aug-22




A topic that shouldn't be advertised on a public forum, no matter how false it is.

From: Shawn
Date: 07-Aug-22




I have hit and lost as many with a compound as my trad bows. I have missed more altogether with my trad bows. People sometimes get upset with me when I say how many I have hit and lost. When you have killed as many as I have you are bound to have hit and lost more than the guy has killed 30 or 40 deer. Shawn

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 07-Aug-22




“Everytime I went to a shoot, I always thought 80% of the people there should not hunt with a recurve or longbow..”

I hear that often, and have seen it often enough to agree that not very many of us have any damn business whatsoever taking shots at animals from the distances set at ranges long enough to sort out The Very Best Archers from the merely Very Good.

But it’s apples and oranges. Nobody with any sense is going to take shots beyond what they’re truly comfortable with, which (for many) is more in line with what you see at our club’s Kids’ stakes.

I totally understand why an outfitter would have a “Blood Drawn = Tag Filled” policy. So long as he’s up front about it, no client should ever have a problem with it. If they do… They are more than welcome to take their business elsewhere. Totally square deal.

Unfortunately, I do believe there are two types of people out there hunting with Stickbows: there are those who have already killed enough animals with whatever type of gear they were using, and who are perfectly happy to raise the odds against themselves; they are the ones who maybe don’t shoot too well beyond 18 or 20 yards or maybe even 15 or 20 yards and they just don’t care, because they know full well that, presented with a shot outside of their comfort zone, they are simply not going to take it. Period.

Then there are those who understand that a StickBow imposes some additional limitations; so they view it as a greater challenge, and they feel the need to prove to themselves (or perhaps to the rest of the world) that they can actually pull it off. So they may not realize it but for them, it’s just a stunt, no different than a guy taking an 80 yard shot at an Elk with a compound or a range-finder-mandatory rifle shot. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to find that these guys make fewer sure, killing shots (percentage-wise) than those in the former group.

Me, I’m a firm believer in knowing your limitations - AND those of your equipment - and not taking a shot if you’re not fully Feelin’ It in that moment. Yes, I took a few SERIOUSLY Dumb-Ass shots early on. Fortunately never clipped so much as a hair.

Pretty small sample, but a VERY solid average since then. That’s not a coincidence.

From: Candyman
Date: 07-Aug-22




I am in the camp of 20 yards or less with a trad bow. That is slam dunk range for me. Also at any farther distance I feel like the deer has more of a chance to move before the arrow gets there. I have passed on many eight pointers and a few tens because they were beyond that slam dunk range. I'm good with that though. No judgement here, that's just what I do.

From: M60gunner
Date: 07-Aug-22




Another in the 20 yard and under camp. That and very sharp broadheads. But I wonder if part of the issue is lack of experience “killing “ an animal like a deer. Any small flinch, blink of the eyes could cause a misplaced shot. Just a thought

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 07-Aug-22




well not all people that start a thread that is controversial is stirring the pot. The poster just posted what he was told. Nothing wrong with that. I happen to agree that I know guys that wound a lot of deer. Don't know about the compound guys. I am sure they wound them too.

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 07-Aug-22




And Fields is right. Most guys I see at shoots should not be hunting with trad bows. Sad but true.

From: Doublelung
Date: 07-Aug-22




most guys i see at trad shoots do not hunt with traditional gear it is just a hobby, its fun

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 08-Aug-22




That is a good point too Doublelung.

From: LBshooter
Date: 08-Aug-22




Well if he's that concerned with it then he shouldn't guide trad shooters. Or, maybe, he should have a shooting test, if someone fails refund their money and send them packing? But I'm willing to bet that his concern for wounded game doesn't outweigh the money he earns by booking that trad shooter. Lots of hunters who hunt long enou will wound a animal or two. I see a lot of compound guys on the hunting shows shoot game a little farther back than they wanted to, and these hunters are "experienced". I hunt public and the number of guys wounding deer with xbows is amazing, taking 60,70 plus yard shots will do that.

From: Bassmaster
Date: 08-Aug-22




If you hunt with any kind of bow in my area you are called a puss hunter by some rifle hunters that shoot at all 3 does together, and wound 2, and maybe kill one, and once in a great while find an arrow in the deer that they shot. And life goes on.

From: MGF
Date: 08-Aug-22




Most of my wounding losses were with my truck. Between my wife and I we've hit a bunch of deer but we only killed 3 of them. The rest lived long enough to evade. The last one hit me. I saw several deer ahead and I slowed more and more until I actually just stopped to wait for them to move off.

There I was at a dead stop in the road sipping my coffee when a doe came out of the dark at a dead run from my left and slammed into the truck and bounced up onto the windshield. Made a mess of my new truck.

Of course I can't hunt any of the land where these vehicle killing deer live.

Where I hunt there usually aren't any deer so I can't do much damage with my bow no matter how lousy of a shot I might be.

From: Woods Walker
Date: 08-Aug-22




For me, bowhunting (and that includes ANY bow) is a short range game. Now that's not saying that archers can't hit a bullseye on a bale consistently at 40+ yards. But the key element here is that BALES DON'T MOVE!

If you've hunted enough you are well aware that game can move in a nano-second. And that blink of an eye is enough for your arrow to NOT hit where you were aiming. And then there's the factor of "hunting conditions", which reduces your effect range even more over what it is when you're shooting stationary targets. We all know that all it takes is one EENY WEENIE little branch that you can't see and your arrow goes ballistic. I even lost a buck once during gun season with a 40 yard shot with a 12 gauge with a scope shooting Winchester Supreme Sabots that was zeroed in at 100 yards with a 1" group. I didn't see the branch!!!

I've been deer hunting for 54 years. I've killed a bunch and of course I've lost some. Fortunately not too many. What I do though with any that I have lost to is try and LEARN as much as I can about what happened and most importantly WHY it happened.

From: Jinkster
Date: 08-Aug-22




The fact that he has “Clients” tells me all I need to know about someone I don’t care to know.

From: monkeyball
Date: 08-Aug-22




I definitely keep the shot close, cause those buggers are quicker than a speeding arrow.........

Good Shooting->->->->Craig

From: Live2Hunt
Date: 08-Aug-22




This could be said about all weapons. The worst I have seen was a group of xgunners hunting an area and we found a total of 6 dead lost deer.

From: Jon Stewart
Date: 08-Aug-22




OK

I know I passed at least 10 dead deer on the side of the roadway last week driving 60 miles to my hunting camp. Now what?

This is just food for the anti hunting organizations.

From: Witherstick
Date: 08-Aug-22




Most predatory animals fail more often than not in their hunting attempts. Ever see a prey animal that has been wounded by coyotes, bears, lions, etc.? Maybe we should go on a righteous crusade to eliminate all the predators whoever failed in a hunt! Think what that would do to the natural cycles as well as the prey animals as even the least fit survive?

Also, most outfitters are not interested in providing a true hunting experience. It is in their interest for a client to be able to collect their animal as easily and quickly as possible. Ever consider the source?

Additionally, I am not going to regulate who can or can’t hunt with a bow in order to make my self feel entitled. I do think each person should work diligently to avoid wounded animals. But I consider more primitive style weapons to be more in line with fair chase even though wounding MIGHT result slightly more often. The total number of game killed is less by far.

Finally, why is it that some are so quick to say others are not fit to hunt with a traditional bow? If someone can’t hit foam, what makes you think that they will even come close to hitting a live target? If you mean thst you want a shooting standard that would of course eliminate even an average shooter, who determines that standard? Maybe some need to check their ego and grow up.

From: tradmt
Date: 08-Aug-22




The last thing I’m concerned about is what an outfitter has to say. Humans wound critters, regardless of the weapon used.

From: GUTPILEPA
Date: 08-Aug-22




X 2 tradmt those kind of outfitters won’t get my business!!!

From: Onehair
Date: 08-Aug-22




We had a couple young hunters at camp last year. Both excellent with their compounds. However both lost 2 deer each Just couldn’t keep it together.

From: Kelly
Date: 08-Aug-22




The line about not allowing expendable broadheads really says it all, imo. Maybe it’s not the trad people at fault since there are way more other bowhunter than trad ones.

From: Gvdocholiday Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Aug-22




I will say that the wounding rate is less than that of crossbow hunters.

From: Doc Pain
Date: 08-Aug-22




A couple things. First, I don’t believe there’s much difference in the wounding of game regardless of the choice of weapon used, be it gun or any type of bow. It’s gonna happen eventually if you hunt a lot no matter how careful you try to be. Secondly, when I hear someone talking about most of the shooters at 3D shoots shouldn’t be hunting, that’s a bunch of BS also. These shoots are set up to be a challenge for archers, and to provide entertainment with the only consequence a broken or lost arrow. If these were actually shots on live game I know I wouldn’t take 2/3’s of them in a hunting situation. I tend to believe that most other responsible archers would have second thoughts also.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 08-Aug-22




Another good point Doc Pain. I stand corrected. Most guys should be able to get good enough for 10 yard shots. I was going by just watching them shoot 3D

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 08-Aug-22




And then some guys are better on real animals than targets

From: Doc Pain
Date: 08-Aug-22




Babysaph, I know there’s a little tongue in cheek humor here, and I don’t believe that crap of a poor shooter becoming a crack shot when the target is a real animal. What I’m saying is just because a guy tries to shoot a standing bear target through the fork of a tree at 25 yards and bounces the arrow off the tree doesn’t mean they can’t put an arrow through the chest of a whitetail from a tree stand 12 yards away.

From: Shawn
Date: 08-Aug-22




Here is something I was surprised to hear. My buddy owns a very successful archery shop. He is very knowledgable about Trad bows and has a decent selection of traditional stuff by todays standards. We were talking about all the deer we have killed over the years and a customer commented he thought that was incredible. The gentlemen left and my bud says "do you realize how many guys come in that have hunted for years and not killed a deer?" I said no, how many. He said over 30 percent if not more and a lot of them never get a shot. So we as hunters must remember when these folks finally do get a chance they don't always use good judgement and also fall apart at the moment of truth. The fact is wounding happens and I believe they have done studies on different military bases through out the country on wounding and I believe it was almost exactly the same for compound guys as traditional guys. Something like 15-16%. The number one reason for wounding is shot selection and due to ones chosen weapon it does not matter. Compound guys took more risky shots at longer distances and trad guys tried to squeeze shots through tight wndows cause the way they set up in order to get closer shots. I believe threads like these create a good back and forth and people can learn something. Shawn

From: 2 bears
Date: 08-Aug-22




In defense of 80% of 3D archers. Many of them, that is where they go to learn. You don't go to learn on live animals. A lot of them like myself would never take a shot on game like they set up. That includes obstacles, foot on the stake, as well as distance. Moving into a position you can handle is part of getting the shot. If you spook him getting in position that is part of it. I do practice shooting seated for blinds but have never took a shot laying down standing on one foot etc. I understand separating the good from the best but realistic hunting 3D shooting should not have more than a couple targets at 20 yards. The rest well inside. There are plenty of long distance target games. 3D should be for hunting & not set up so folks think all hunters are taking shots like that at game. Lost arrows are no fun for beginners. Waiting for folks to find them is no fun for anyone. Just my thoughts. >>>----> Ken

From: Phil Magistro
Date: 08-Aug-22




I didn't read every post here so I apologize if it was mentioned. There was a study conducted by several government agencies in Oklahoma in 1995-97 that is often referenced with regards to wounding rates. It's known as the Camp Ripley Study and can be read here -

https://wp.auburn.edu/deerlab/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/581998-SEAFWA.pdf

From: dnovo Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Aug-22




There's a lot of guys that go to 3D shoots that never hunt. Some guys only dig the bows out for a shoot. Lots of reasons some guys are poor shots at 3D shoots including shooting beyond what they're used to. You can usually tell the serious hunters.

From: Verdeburl
Date: 08-Aug-22




There will always be a lot of emotions involved in this subject. All I can say in fact is my own personal results. Through the years I have hunted with even the hated crossbow-at least hated by some. Every situation where a shot opportunity presents itself things can go wrong. I made a comment to my friends one day that I will stand by—If you hunt and pursue game long enough you will have a time when things go wrong. Any person who tells me they’ve never had something not go as planned during a hunt especially at the moment of truth hasn’t hunted very long. As for me with my recurves-all shots are kept within 20 yards, and I wait until the animal is as close to broadside as possible. I’ve had to leave many many animals walk because I didn’t feel confident in the end result. I think those of us who choose to take a basic bare bow to the woods need to know the limitations of both the weapon of choice and ourselves long before we make the choice to let the arrow fly at the moment of truth. I cannot speak for anyone but myself and I will refrain from making any accusations against my fellow hunters-unless I am standing there at the moment of the shot-only then can I say whether the shot was good or bad—chances are I wasn’t there so I cannot be critical as I have no true valid first hand knowledge of exactly what went on. The subject of wounding is a subject where emotions flair up.

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 08-Aug-22




You are right Doc Pain. I never believed that guys were better at shooting deer than targets.

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 08-Aug-22




You are right Doc Pain. I never believed that guys were better at shooting deer than targets.

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 08-Aug-22




I would not base my opionion on one persons records,,,

From: monkeyball
Date: 08-Aug-22

monkeyball's embedded Photo



Participating in 3-D shoots allow you to be exposed to a variety of shot setups and distances. It will help you gain the knowledge to know your limitations when you are actually out on the hunt.

You learn about angles, and elevations, and how they affect where your arrow needs to impact, all important factors when you are actually trying to kill a live animal.

Good Shooting->->->->Craig

From: deerhunt51
Date: 09-Aug-22




A bow is a tool. Nothing more. It is the responsibility of the hunter to know how to use it. I personally find traditional archery to be an efficient way to fill my freezer.

From: AK Pathfinder
Date: 09-Aug-22




A lot of good points brought out here. I think its up to the hunter to determine what is an ethical, high percentage shot and that's different for all of us. If you don't want an outfitter telling you when you're tag is filled then you ether need to find a different one or hone your skills. Each of us is responsible for determine what a ethical shot is based on what our skill level and experience is. I feel comfortable to about 25 yards but that isn't to say under the right circumstances I might feel a 30 yard shot was good or a 15 yard shot was bad, and none of us can make that determination for others...it's a personal thing and requires us all to be honest with ourself about just what is a good shot and what is a low percentage shot. I think we all need to be honest, and based on our experience take shots that respect the animal more than our need to fill a tag or brag. Tag soup is better than a animal rotting in the woods and suffering every time.

From: mamba-ny
Date: 09-Aug-22




One thing every new hunter should know.Deer don't drop dead ( in most cases ) when hit by any projectile.Even with a good hit a deer MAY travel a 100yds.The lenght of a football field in terain that can be hard to cover. Recovery can depend more on your tracking skills and no give upness than shot placement.Your heart and physical being had better be up to the task.

From: grizz
Date: 09-Aug-22




If you are interested in actual facts and not speculation, Magistro posted a study you should read. I read it when it came out in’98 and re-read it today. This study was done at the MAAP in McAlester where no hunting is permitted with any weapon but stickbows. Most will be surprised at the findings. The study also eludes to data from other major studies around the country including the Camp Ripley study done in Minnesota, with similar conclusions.

I know hunters who participate in this hunt which is still held today. I can tell you that some who participate only own a traditional bow for this one hunt. The rest of the time, they hunt with compounds. To me, that makes the data even more surprising. So, instead of posting about how sorry everyone else shoots, on social media, you try informing yourself with facts instead of trash mouthing the majority of hunters in a lifestyle you are supposed to love.

From: South Farm
Date: 09-Aug-22




I know guys who strike out every time the step up to the plate, but they still love the sport. I think the key is regardless of weapon choice you need to PRACTISE and know your limitations. Bad things happen to good people; most of us in our years have lost an animal or two, but it should be the exception, not the norm.

As for posting this on a "public forum", I see no more injury in that than living your life in fear of what someone else will think of you or what you say. Say whatever you wish, but in the end let your actions say it loudest.

From: groundhunter50
Date: 09-Aug-22




These were great responses... Was not trying to stir the pot, just relaying, what was part of a conversation, among some really good bowhunters, and an outfitter, at his booth...... he is a quality outfitter I can assure you, just pointing out an observation......

I told him, everyone can mess up,,,,, I also said, when a guy dumps out 3000.00 for a 6 day hunt, that puts unneeded presssure on some.............

From: chickenfoot
Date: 09-Aug-22




I outfit out west and I would say the wound rate is close to 30% for all weapons combined, its something that needs to be dealt with and if you draw blood you are done should be instiiled . Its having a big impact on the quality of the game animals were I hunt.

From: Nemophilist
Date: 09-Aug-22




X2 with grizz.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 09-Aug-22




I agree Shawn. Lots of guys never get shots. I truly believe where you hunt is the most important thing. I am so blessed to live in WV and own my own land. I don’t take that for Granted. Since owning my own land I have never gone without killing deer. It would not be unheard of to get 20 opportunities a year. Of course I don’t take em all. So guys be thankful for what you have

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 09-Aug-22




I also think it may be time for a new study. Good point Grizz. I really only worry about myself. I’m going to hunt even if there is an arrow in the ass of every deer in WV ??

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 09-Aug-22




3-D may have been started for hunting practice but it is now a different sport. It is a target competition. Some use bows only for 3-D . Then switch to another bow to hunt. I never understood that. But we have always had archery competitions . When I first started they had walk up targets. Some were 80 yards. So like George always says, that is nothing new

From: Will tell
Date: 09-Aug-22




I think we're talking Apples and Oranges about 3D. There are those who compete for score and those who shoot to practice for hunting. I used to shoot a lot of 3D and rarely shot at the stakes. I was using a self bow and only shot when I was sure I could make a kill shot. I'd average 80% kill shots and only once did I complete the course with 100% kill shots. Most of those shots were between 15 and 25 yards. You have to know your effective range to minimize wounding animals.

From: tradmt
Date: 09-Aug-22




I’m sitting here reflecting on hunting shots I have taken and I think I have shot tighter groups 25+ than I have 15 and under. I have been overexcited and shot over the backs of more critters at the closer ranges,( mostly antelope), than longer ranges.

My worst shooting has been on targets by far, because my head wasn’t in the game and I probably shouldn’t even have been shooting that day.

In the end I can only say that for me it seems I shoot better the more I concentrate on the shot. Your mileage may vary.

From: Tedd
Date: 09-Aug-22




I'm not good at public 3D shoots.

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 09-Aug-22




The longer shots do make the shorter ones seen easy. If I shoot all at 10-12 yards I would have a great score so to me longer shot help.

From: Doc Pain
Date: 09-Aug-22




I shoot real good on most 3D ranges, but then again I shoot mostly from the kids stakes!!

From: Jarhead
Date: 09-Aug-22




When you pay to play... you better show up with a few things in hand: - your max effective range - the ability to not shoot unless you're inside of that number - the ability to tell your outfitter exactly what you can and can't do.

I like the old saying - put your shooting foam on the hood of your truck... and however far you can back up and comfortably take a shot - that's your Max Range.

I told my bison guide... "20... and not a step more..." I told my African outfitters... 15 paces... not a step more."

The result? I didn't kill everything I wanted... and I killed everything I shot at.

From: groundhunter50
Date: 09-Aug-22




Jarhead,,, great post,,,, I told my friends son,,, up in Alberta, with the snow and wind blowing, its a different world,,,, realize what you are capable of,,,,,,

If you can not afford to eat a tag, etc, dont come, with any bow,,,,

As far as the expense, the adventure is always worth it,,,,,

Iknow guys who buy 70,000 trucks, that bitch about 10,000 hunts,,,, In life you have to choose

I would rather own a 2004 4 runner,, and be able to buy a 10,0000 hunt

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 09-Aug-22




agree with groundhunter. I always drive the tires off of cars. Pay em off as soon as I can an save the payment for hunts. My friends laughed at me once on my first African trip. I collected pop cans at 2 local archery clubs. Got enough for my airfare. They didn't laugh after that.

From: David A.
Date: 09-Aug-22




IMO, trad. bowHUNTERS should at least aspire to shoot as good at 15 yds. as the WINNERS of the Lancaster Barebow Finals group at 20 yds.

https://youtu.be/DUmD80K-pOw

It should be a slam dunk, but the problems are many and I'm not going to go into the rabbit hole here...I do know there is a tremendous amount of angst out there which is understandable. No one who loves trad. bowhunting is likely to be happy with inconsistent accuracy.

.

From: Tomas deGato
Date: 09-Aug-22




Outstanding post Jarhead! I was just having this discussion with someone the other day. I practice a lot, I'm deadly in the back yard out to 25 yards. I'm always amazed when I climb into a tree stand the difference the height and angle make in the field of view. A 3D target on the ground is way different from a live deer when you're looking down from 20ft up.

I've made my share of bad shots. Usually because I rushed a shot thinking the deer was going to move. Experience is teaching me to slow down and know my ability. Nothing worse than watching a deer runoff knowing you're not gonna recover that animal.

So much time spent prepping for such small windows of opportunity. Easy to go from hero to zero less than5 seconds.

Hitting full draw with an 85% let off compound is way different from hitting anchor with a trad bow. I guess it's target panic and buck fever at the same time. I think TED NUGENT calls it pre-mature ejacula.... of the arrow.

But that's the nature of this game. The higher the risk the greater the reward. A reward is usually equivalent to the time spent working for it. You gotta pay your dues. And like most things in life, you must be present to win.

I wouldn't have it any other way. I'd rather sit in a tree with recurve an go home with nothing rather than take one with a compound. Trad archery brings me great joy.

From: Tomas deGato
Date: 09-Aug-22




I have really enjoyed this thread. I value the wisdom being shared by experienced trad hunters. So here is my story. I'm 61 years old. Shot my first deer at 8 with an open site 30-30 sitting on my grandfather's lap on our family ranch in central Texas. I remember it like it was yesterday.

I continued to hunt deer with a rifle until I was about 20 years old. I roamed our Texas Hill Country ranch every chance I got. I remember falling asleep on the side of the hill one day and when I woke I had 4 does bedded upwind of me less than 15 yards way.

Then a friend showed up to hunt our family ranch with a compound bow. I think it was a PSA Fire Flight. I shot it 2 or 3 times and was hooked. I put down the gun, bought a bow and never looked back. It took me all year to kill my first deer. I set up at a hole in the fence and shot over a year and half old spike at first light. The next day I was back in the same spot at the same time and he came through again. Aimed lower and put a nice slice in his back. Day three he came through again. This time I aimed low, then lower, felt like I was aiming at his feet. Loosed the arrow and center punched him. Still gives me goosebumps.

Over the next 20 years I killed too many deer to number. I was a good hunter, great shot and excellent bow mechanic. I tuned my friends bows and had a blast doing it. Harvested a pile does and good bucks. From 5 yards to my best buck at 35 yards, a 275 pound 160" 9 point.

After about 20 years with a compound, I started to toy with trad bows. I had no idea what I was doing. I read the G.Fred Asbell instinctive shooting book. It helped, but I was an over bowed split finger shooting disaster. I got lucky and killed a 7 point with a recurve after a few years. So I ordered a custom black widow and really started practicing. But, I could never get consistent. I heard about "3 under" and gave it a shot. Holy cow, it just felt right. My groups started tightening up and I started to build confidence. I'd practice all summer only to chicken out when hunting season rolled around and I'd pick up my compound again.

One cold December morning about 10 years ago I was sitting in a lock on near the bank of the Mississippi River watching a nice 8 post slip by at about 75 yards. It was such a beautiful scene. Then I looked down at the mechanical bow in my lap and knew I should be looking at my recurve. I literally said to myself, "You p&#$y! Put this compound away once and for all and hunt with your trad bow." When my guide came to pick me up, I handed him my compound and said, "Merry Christmas! Don't give this back to me no matter how much I beg you."

When we got back to camp I pulled out my Black Widow. Shot for a bout 30 minutes and went back to the woods. Heart shot a nice 8 point at last light and never picked up a compound again. The next several deer I shot at I killed. Then the honeymoon came to an end and the wounding started.

I practiced and tuned and tuned and practiced. I'd kill one deer and then wound two or three others. I never took a shot beyond 20 yards and never took a shot I didn't think I could make. Every year I think I'd think I'm dialed in only to rush a shot and wound another deer. I've been tempted to wrap my bow around a tree on occasion, but never once tempted to quick and go back to the compound.

I know I'm gaining wisdom and becoming better trad shooter and hunter. This sport and community is my home. I've learned a lot on Leatherwall and appreciate everyone's help and encouragement. Thanks for reading my story. I hope it helps someone. Blessings to all. Tom

From: David A.
Date: 09-Aug-22




Congratulations on being a deadly shot at 25 yds. with a hunting bow because Demmer and Martin in the Lancaster finals (see my post above) are using full out tournament bows to be deadly at 20 yds. much less 25 yds. What do you think they would group with a shorter and less mass hunting bow? My guess is they would do quite well, but would

use a similar bow (e.g. a semi tournament bow) to achieve similar results.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 10-Aug-22




Deadly does mean tiny groups. It means killing deer. I can do that at 15 yards. Target archery is a whole other game.

From: David A.
Date: 10-Aug-22




That's what you want for whitetail bowhunting for a number of reasons besides accuracy such as the fun of predatory range hunting.

From: Shawn
Date: 10-Aug-22




Another thing to consider is what we do as we mature in our sport and our mindset changes. When I was young I kill as many as 17 deer in a year. I know I shot 45 does in 3 years back in the early 90's I took pretty much every shot that presented itself. I was a stone cold killer. Never shot at a deer I didn't expect to die!! Now fast forward 30 years and I am very selective in the deer I shoot. I only shoot 3.5 year old or older bucks and I take a few does for meat. My shot selection has changed as well. I no longer take those tougher shots. I have become more patient. I wound way less now than I did when I was young, but I also don't shoot nowhere near as many. My point is there are many new guys coming into the sport and regardless of what they shoot their decision making isn't always the best. Than add in the buck fever and I don't mean just on bucks but whatever deer they are aiming at. I actually liked my younger self better cause I love killing deer, now I am old guy who loves killing good bucks. I may eat a couple grand in whitetail tags this year but ya can't shoot a 160" buck if ya shoot the first 140"er that walks by!! Shawn

From: Beendare
Date: 10-Aug-22




A stickbow is a much less effective weapon requiring more skill to be proficient vs a rifle or compound- no question. Anyone that states otherwise is just wrong.

That said- its literally the reason why most of us shoot trad equipment!

Keep your shots on game within your effective range and Trad gear can be 100% effective.

The key concept with any weapon is effective range. I was just on Afognak with 2 rifle hunting buddies that whiffed on 3 deer between 200-230y…past their effective range for those conditions.

From: Tom McCool
Date: 10-Aug-22




I think the few lost animals and occasional poor shot decisions I have made serve as invaluable lessons that nag at me when scouting, target shooting, tuning my equipment and taking hunting shots so much, it has made me the best humane hunter I can be.

I may have lost those animals but I have carried them with me in my mind for 50 years.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 10-Aug-22




I can’t shoot a 160 inch buck because where I hunt there are not any

From: Foggy Mountain
Date: 10-Aug-22




Outfitters only know what they see and experience. Not to bring up guns but one outfitter freaked when my buddy brought buckshot to his bear camp. Come on now how the heck is that not gonna work? The outfitter had bad experiences with guys using it and was upset. He used it on 2 bears very successfully I might add.

Any outfitter could see a higher wound rate. Fellows are in camp say 6 days. They only get so many chances , it’s their vacation, they spent lots of money, they want pics to show friends, bad decisions are made by the hunters too often. Would it matter if the trad guys stayed at 10 feet cause if that’s their effective range that’s where they need to stay within. The hunter and outfitter need to understand each other.

Every weapon, every hunter has limitations. The outfitter needs to put someone in position to be successful inside that effective range. Is the poor shooting the hunters fault? Yes. Could the outfitter bear some blame? Maybe. He could show all sorts of hero pics and set unrealistic possibilities in the hunters mind. He may also not know what it takes to get animals stykbow close. Camps that understand these things are more successful and imo the wound rate would be lower.

From: David A.
Date: 10-Aug-22




I've had outfiters and guides criticize me after arrival for using a recurve. Even on a Native American reservation...but took the first elk there with a recurve (at least in modern times).

A lot of experienced hunters have little clue how close a good hunter can get to game, either by proper stand/blind setup/location or by calling/stalking. It's really not that hard to hunt close for most game, they all have weaknesses that can be exploited. Sometimes you have to develop your own novel methods. The right camo can help, too; I usually use leafy cams with particular attention to face and hands.

From: shade mt
Date: 11-Aug-22




I'll probably get some flack for this, but I'll say it anyway...sometimes the truth hurts, but if you just accept it and remedy it, problem solved.

There are far to many guys that switch from compounds to " trad " and expect the same results...quick and easy.

First...your not going to group like you can with a compound, so save the arguments...good thing is...you don't have to. But you do need to hit the vitals.

There is no quick and easy, it takes, practice and experience. You may grab a stickbow, and in a month be doing pretty good....sometimes....but a treestand is NOT your backyard.

There is this constant talk about form, shot sequence , back pressure, clean release, and all the other humbo jumbo, it takes...to be a good shot. It's all good advice normally. Use it.....but once you hit the treestand, it darn well better be automatic, or your gonna have problems.

I bought one of those life size cardboard deer targets, about a month ago. The vitals are shot out of it already, I'll admit there are a couple gut shots, I'd have to look but I'm guessing maybe 6 or so ?...and there are now 2 in the ham from some hail mary shots, from way farther than I'd shoot anyway. How many in the vitals?....hard to say, hundreds probably...

But you know what?...I started when I was 12, I'm gonna be 58 in jan...that's a lot of practice, I shoot almost every day.

Practice till it's automatic....then we won't see threads like this.

From: Supernaut
Date: 11-Aug-22




Some threads and especially some posts require hip waders and some chest waders.... once in awhile a kayak would work.

From: Nemophilist
Date: 11-Aug-22

Nemophilist's embedded Photo



From: grizz
Date: 11-Aug-22




Some of these posts remind me of a local feller here, who claims to have killed ten thousand deer with the same Winchester 30/30. An amazing a accomplishment since we still have deer in SE Oklahoma.

From: Jeffer
Date: 11-Aug-22




I hear stories all the time here at the shop from crossbow hunters about taking bad shots and wounding deer they can't find. It almost seems like they're taking it to a bragging right level. Pretty horrible stuff. It doesn't matter what weapon someone uses. There will always be assholes out there.

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 11-Aug-22




“One thing every new hunter should know.Deer don't drop dead ( in most cases ) when hit by any projectile.Even with a good hit a deer MAY travel a 100yds.”

I have an acquaintance who used to be a professional in the UK; he has shot literally thousands of deer for the market, so this is a guy who knows how to keep all of his shots off the shoulder and out of the guts. Favorite round is a 150 grain .270 Win loaded down to about 2800 fps.

He fully expected EVERY deer to bolt off a *minimum* of 80 yards on a good hit. And he kept a blood-trailing dog in the truck. Just sayin. I don’t ever take a shot without assessing the time, weather, tracking conditions, proximity to any boundaries, etc.. All of the OTHER stuff that have nothing to do with shooting ability and can all have a major impact on whether or not you’ll recover that animal. But do the math: let’s say a whitetail can do 40MPH.

60 MPH is a mile a minute, so 40 is 2/3 mile/minute. Down in 30 seconds is fast, but (at 40 MPH), that could be 1/3 mile. 586 yards. Even if you cut that in half, that could be a long tracking job…

It’s guaranteed that if you can follow the tracks long enough, you’ll find the beast that made them. But most of us have pretty poor skills when it comes to tracking 1 specific animal. Lord knows I wish I could get more practice….

From: Corax_latrans
Date: 11-Aug-22




“One thing every new hunter should know.Deer don't drop dead ( in most cases ) when hit by any projectile.Even with a good hit a deer MAY travel a 100yds.”

I have an acquaintance who used to be a professional in the UK; he has shot literally thousands of deer for the market, so this is a guy who knows how to keep all of his shots off the shoulder and out of the guts. Favorite round is a 150 grain .270 Win loaded down to about 2800 fps.

He fully expected EVERY deer to bolt off a *minimum* of 80 yards on a good hit. And he kept a blood-trailing dog in the truck. Just sayin. I don’t ever take a shot without assessing the time, weather, tracking conditions, proximity to any boundaries, etc.. All of the OTHER stuff that have nothing to do with shooting ability and can all have a major impact on whether or not you’ll recover that animal. But do the math: let’s say a whitetail can do 40MPH.

60 MPH is a mile a minute, so 40 is 2/3 mile/minute. Down in 30 seconds is fast, but (at 40 MPH), that could be 1/3 mile. 586 yards. Even if you cut that in half, that could be a long tracking job…

It’s guaranteed that if you can follow the tracks long enough, you’ll find the beast that made them. But most of us have pretty poor skills when it comes to tracking 1 specific animal. Lord knows I wish I could get more practice….

From: tecum-tha Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 11-Aug-22




Last 3D shoot I actually shot my moose hunting rig. Shot a lot from the compound stake, up to 45 yards and did walk ups. Probably shot 70 arrows. My buddy thought I was on fire. No 5s, only 8 or 10, one miss. Normally he sees me shooting not so well. Reason: I tinker around at 3D shoots with different things I like to play with. New bow, approx. spined arrows. That won't make a good picture of my shooting abilitirs for the 3D shoot observers. But it is not their call to make. A 3D shoot is not hunting training. It is fun. If you eant to train hunting on a 3D, use the KillThing scoring.

From: Jed Gitchel
Date: 11-Aug-22




Hmmm

From: PhantomWolf
Date: 11-Aug-22




Jeffer, your last 2 sentences nailed it!!

From: grizz
Date: 11-Aug-22




Jeffer, excellent post. They’re everywhere!

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 11-Aug-22




Unfortunately, wounding game is a part of hunting, all hunting. Most of the problem is not the weapon, but the person behind it not realizing the limitations at hand, including their own human abilities.

From: Greenstyk
Date: 11-Aug-22




Supernaut, Nemo and Grizz X2.

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 11-Aug-22




And,sometimes it just happens, to all of us.

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 11-Aug-22




wow. Tecum. That is on fire. That is over 270 score. I am sure that took home the first place trophy

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 11-Aug-22




wow. Tecum. That is on fire. That is over 270 score. I am sure that took home the first place trophy. Lets see some moose kill pics

From: Coyote
Date: 11-Aug-22




Roy Marlow wrote an article about this subject for the Dec Jan 1996 Traditional Bowhunter Mag. It analysed the results from longbow, recurve and compound shooters. Turned out that longbow shooters had the lowest wounding rate and the highest recovery rate along with the shortest blood trails. They shot the fewest number of deer because of their self imposed limits. The results were attributed to the fact that the longbow boys took the shortest shots with the best chance of putting the arrow through the boiler room. They were followed by recurve shooters and then compound shooters. It appears that the longer the shot the greater the chance of wounding.

From: shade mt
Date: 12-Aug-22




Threads like this, and surveys and polls always seem to have a certain amount of biased info, and missing facts, real life facts.

One guy has a streak of 20 deer in a row, no wounded, next guy loses 6 in a row...what's the difference?

One guy is one heck of a good shot on the range, but wounds deer regularly, next guy is pretty good to 15 yds but it's downhill after that, but has shot 6 deer in a row and all dropped in sight...what's the difference?

The difference?...deer are not made out of paper foam or cardboard. The difference is in only taking high percentage shots, when using anything with an arrow, don't matter if it has wheels and cables or not.

So your only accurate to 15 yds?...then limit your kills to that and wait for a high percentage shot, and you'll do fine.

So your a good shot you shoot nice little fist sized groups, and you think you can just shoot at deer any time you please, range or angle, no problem. Trust me you will be involved in some long tracking jobs eventually.

It's hard to sift through threads like this and expect it all to be fact, frankly it isn't.

But I'm not you...and frankly if your reading this....your not me either.

We cause all kinds of doubt and misinformation when we can't see beyond our own pointed nose.

There are plenty of traditional archers that are terrific shots, and they don't go around wounding game.

Let me be blunt....just because "you" cannot keep the vast majority of your shots in the vitals, and have wounded 6 deer in the last 10 years, that don't mean that's the way it is for everyone.

Don't doubt someone else who claims different, don't blame the equipment, but take a good hard look at yourself, chances are right there is the fault.

My cardboard deer target has the vitals shot out of it because day after day, I roam around shooting shot after shot, 95% of the time 20 yds and under...because I'm a bowhunter and I learned a long time ago that your highest percentage shots are at that distance.

You want to shoot over that?....save it for those foam and cardboard deer....they don't run off and die a slow death when you can't find them.

From: David A.
Date: 14-Aug-22




"your not going to group like you can with a compound, so save the arguments" I'm not the best compound shot, but I can shoot a recurve nearly as accurately at 20 yds. which is actually 5 yds. farther than what I prefer on deer.

https://youtu.be/kK7dvneoAvM

In fact if you keep all your arrows in the kill zone you are effectively shooting just as good as a compound archer. Think about it...

There is a formula for accuracy, and unfortunately very few trad bowhunters use it...it certainly is not about any special talent. Part of that formula is how consistent the sight picture has to be and virtually no one can get the level of consistency I'm talking about shooting instinctively. You can experiment with a compound at 20 yds. putting the sight pin at the top and then at the bottom of a peep sight aperture and you'll find arrows hitting 6"-12" apart and that's maybe a 1/4" variance in rear sight alone!

From: Jed Gitchel
Date: 14-Aug-22




Shade mt x2

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 14-Aug-22




Absolutely, stay within your effective range.

But...we often read on here how traditional archery has been dumbed down... often disparaging those who keep it close.

I wonder if that affects those who are starting out and even experienced hunters to take shots they should not.

So lets look within ourselves to understand how bravado statements can affect the way some people hunt.

Chet Stevenson, who shot all wooden bows, limited himself to around 12 yards if I remember.

Jawge

From: Shawn
Date: 14-Aug-22




So after reading all the posts again I am the perfect guy to comment on this thread. Again, I hunt with both a compound and a recurve. I have had both my shoulders replaced in the last 2.5 years and a hip. I honestly have only hunted with the recurve 20 times maybe in the last 4 or 5 years. I have to shoot quite a bit to stay hunt accurate with my recurve. Since my bad shoulders I don't shoot enough, so I hunt less with it. I can sat this, I say my wounding rate is no higher with the recurve than compound. I know my limits with both and as long as I stick to them I do pretty well. I still would about 10% or so of the deer I shoot at. Lots of times the shot seems good but these are live animals and they do odd things like take a step as we shoot, jump the string or just do something as we shoot. If wounding animals turns you off then ya should not hunt, cause no matter how good of a shot or how good of a hunter it happens. The best we can do is try our best to find the wounded animal and if not hope it survives. Then we can learn from that experience and move on!! Shawn

From: jjs
Date: 14-Aug-22




McAlester Ok. Trad Hunt, had a study before this hunt started on wounding, the study had a less wounding occurrence than with the compound or this trad hunt wouldn't been allowed.

The wildlife manager went through some controversy before he was able to get this hunt approved.

The study is in public domain and used it with another gent in trying to get a trad hunt on a Federal property, which was rejected for varies political reasons.

I am in Shawn's position now and still hunt but still will not pull the arrow unless I have a 90% shot, which passed up a few deer, I hunt with recurve/longbow only since the 60s, just do not have an interest hunting with a compound, my choice and I live by it.

From: Jinkster
Date: 14-Aug-22




I don’t know why this is questioned let alone a hot topic because?.. yes…the wound rate is always going to be higher as the skill level required to use the weapon in question effectively for instance?…what’s the wound rate for those using spears and Atlatl’s?… How many hogs survive a wound from a barefooted rednecks knife?…what if there were a “Rockhunting Season”?…and BTW?…How many rifle hunters talk Pooh about compound wound rates?

How many trappers find only remains in their snares because a predator got there first?….how many spring traps contain nothing but a gnawed off foot?…so postings like this?…are good for nothing but to create an opportunity for braggarts and merchants to express their thoughts and tout services and products at the expense of the conscience and self worth of others.

End of rant…Have a Blessed day.

From: crazyjjk
Date: 14-Aug-22




Well said Shade Mt

From: lamb
Date: 14-Aug-22




david a. right on point dave l. in new mexico





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