Didn’t want to hijack the other thread. Just was wondering who came up with this and when bare shafting became so popular? I never heard of the great shooters back in the day doing this. I’ve seen videos where Fred just used boxes of arrows right off the product line.

I can't answer as to when people started doing this but in the 50s as a kid, you just bought arrows with no concept of the spine and shot them until you lost or broke them. Then in the 60s I bought a bow and the dealer matched the weight of the bow to the spine of the wood arrow and you shot them. That's pretty much how it went.

Don't you know it's Rocket Science! :>)

"I've seen videos where Fred just used boxes of arrows right off the product line." Anyone that already knows what shaft they need could do this.

Most archers over 50 can just buy arrows off the shelf since they know their own bows that well and were taught what spine is. If your life revolves around Alexa and smart phone apps, well then it's a different story.

The first that I can remember of baredhafting was in the '90's

As Frank said, the first I recall doing it was in the mid 90''s. Before that I only paper tuned.

I have a phone app that shows arrow spines lol but mostly I just ask miss Siri and she tells me what to use. She is teaching me to shoot better also. She won’t drag my deer though

Folks, advancement’s are made everyday in every aspect of life.

59 years ago my grandparents didn’t have indoor plumbing. I am sure glad I never lived without it.

Not sure when bare shaft tuning started but it’s just another method of tuning that time and learning lead too.

Id bet money if Fred or Howard was here today they would be bare shaft tuning arrows because they was always seeking a way to improvement.

We have a choice stay in the past or move forward must of us trad guys have no problem moving forward when it comes to electricity or running water but seem to resist certain aspects though not all advancements in archery.

I too am curious as to exactly when it got started and who started it. As best as I can remember the first I heard of it was in mid to late nineties. Depending on what your shooting ability is and how badly you need the ultimate in precision it can be useful I suppose. I skoot wood arrows from a longbow most of the time. I am perfectly happy visually deciding how well my arrows are flying. If they are flying straight, impacting straight and hitting what I wantthen I don't need to know anything more.

Just because there are newer ways of doing things doesn't mean they are a necessity to achieve the same things people have been doing for a long time using older methods.

Back in the late 80's or early 90s Ken Beck with Black Widow bows had a VHS that introduced me.

I just looked in Rick McKinney's book "The Simple Art of Winning" published in 1996. He talks about bare shaft testing and says that Easton had recommended it for years and Olympic archers have been using it. Don't know what he meant by "years" but would seem to indicate at least back into the 80's.

N -

IIRC it became mainstream around the time of the Hoyt T/D4 - GM c1980s +/-. ILF opened a whole new world.

K -

Trad types shoot considerably worse now, IMHO, but it has nothing to do with tuning. Different mindset.

Viper out.

“ The question is, do people shoot better now than they did before bareshaft tuning? I haven’t seen it.”

Sample size of 1: Yes.

It won’t turn a lousy shot into a great shot. But for a reasonably good shot, it can remove a substantial barrier to consistency. If you are interested in hunting at short range, it will improve your penetration because your arrow will be straightened up and flying point on upon impact. If you are interested in shooting beyond 50 feet on a hunt, it will improve both penetration and accuracy by preserving arrow velocity much farther down range, so your arrow will arrive flying faster and straighter and your elevation errors will be reduced by the flatter trajectory that comes from not scrubbing off a whole lot of speed right out of the gate.

To be honest, I’m not sure that it is of much use to those who profess the “instinctive“ style. If you don’t know exactly where the arrow is pointed to begin with, it’s going to be difficult to figure out whether the arrows are going where are you aimed them or not.

But I figure if you are putting all of your arrows - fletched or not - into the same general group without any obvious amount of tail-wagging, then either you are tuned near enough as makes no difference, or you don’t shoot well enough to know the difference.

And one thing I’m quite sure of is that I have grown very tired of people who have never experimented with it or simply can’t figure it out, but who claim to “know” something that people who are SUCCEEDING AT IT don’t understand.

Some people want to know What works; some people want to know WHY and HOW things work. There is no Wisdom in Willful Ignorance.

I have a 1974 NAA instructor's manual that Bud Fowkes and Ruth Rowe helped with and it mentions bare shaft tuning.

I agree with Viper on that.

Paper tuning @1,10,20 and 30yrds still works very well with all arrow materials.Very accurate and fast way to tune an arrow to your bow and shooting style.Do figure bare shaft watching probably came before paper tuning.But also think paper tuning is a faster more accurate way over bare shaft watching and the reason most all archers have chosen this method no matter the bow type.

Corax,

I have seen so many different explanations and arguments about what instinctive is that I gave up trying to figure out the definition. I only know that I shoot my longbows with no CONSCIOUS REFERENCE point. But I do consciously focus on the exact point I want to hit.

I am one of those who has never done any bare shaft tuning. I don't claim to know anything more than anyone else but I do know how to do bare shaft tuning if I wanted to. The one thing I do know is my arrows fly straight, impact straight and if I do my part they hit where I want them to. I don't feel I need them to do any more than that.

I have read people say they trim their arrows an eighth of an inch at a time in the process of tuning with a bare shaft. Maybe I have just never been that good or met someone who is because I can't imagine being able to tell a difference made by an eighth of an inch.

I thoroughly enjoy reading about all these technical aspects and trying to understand them but I prefer to keep the shooting of my wood arrows with a longbow as simple as possible.

I find that bare shaft tuning saves broadheads and targets.

At "hunting" distances almost any shaft will fly ok with fetching and field points. The broadhead changes things.

Heck If you have the targets, heads and place to shoot I guess you could just tune with broadheads.

Smokey -

OK, with paper tuning you kinda need a paper frame, with bare shaft tuning, you need a couple of bare shafts. Which is easier to carry? That's my only issue with paper tuning, which is typically done @ 5 yards ONLY.

Are you paper tuning fletched arrows at 10, 20 and 30 yards? Cool, but the fletching as fully stabilized an arrow by 10 yards, unless something is REALLY off.

Viper out.

It was also a method that Vic Berger discribes when he invented the Berger plunger. Not sure what year as my instruction sheet is as it isn't dated.

Viper,bare shaft through paper before fletching but always shoot the arrow through paper after fletching as well,seems about 99% of the time if I’m getting a good bullet hole with bare shaft through the paper @1yrd it will hold out to 30yrds IME.Yes I have a homemade adjustable height target frame/stand that holds a roll of butchers paper that I use for tuning arrows to bows and sighting in guns.

No one says that everyone HAS to bare shaft tune or that it is the ONLY WAY you can ever hit anything. It is simply an easy way to get your equipment matched up and make shooting more enjoyable. Bare shaft tuning will accomplish anything paper tuning will for the average guy. And as far as that question asked earlier about does anyone shoot better with bare shaft tuning then before there was bare shaft tuning, I can say that I certainly do! Far and Away!

I can say that I shoot better after i started doing the bareshaft tuning. Back in the 80's I just bought arrows that were recommended and shot them.

I had this discussion with John Schulz. He said he'd never shot through paper and was "pretty sure" (said with a big smile) that Howard Hill had never either. But that said, Hill was a good enough shot that he knew how much drift the arrow would go off the arrow sight line at 100 yards due to RW feather spin versus LW feather spin and Schulz watched him multiple times shoot 6 arrows about 3 seconds apart into the end of the middle straw bale (in a stack of three high) at 100 yards. Hill and Schulz shot the line. As Schulz taught me not to worry about some arrow paradox, but if the arrow drifts right or left of the line of sight it's too weak or stiff. It seems to me that paper tuning and bare shaft tuning done at close range are tuning the arrow setup to pass a certain point cleanly while it's between flexing points of paradox. It seems to me that if the arrow was tearing paper, the shooter could back up or move forward a little bit and the arrow would punch clean holes. Unless it's horribly the wrong spine. Please correct me if I'm wrong?

So does bare shaft tuning preclude the requirement of buying arrows that are suggested for a given arrow length, draw weight, point weight etc.?

Of course it doesn't.

But many times that's the impression that is suggested by these threads.

Nate you are not wrong by any stretch.

I love bare shaft tuning. I usually tune to 40 yards. I film over my shoulder in slow motion with a lighted nock. It really lets me see what’s going on. I feel it gives me the most precise tune and therefore most forgiving. I keep a bareshaft in my quiver and shoot it every day. It keeps me aware of any changes in my form or if something changed in my bow. This pic is yesterday, fletched broadhead tipped arrow and bareshaft shot from my tree stand.

We tried to keep it secret so we could stay on top. Keep winning & bring in the most game but it leaked out. Then vedios came along to teach everyone. Don't watch them, don't read about it, don't bare shaft. It is all a big fraud. I would never give tips to a competitor. LOL Have a good day, >>>----> Ken

Smokey -

Once you shot the bare shaft through paper, you're bare shafting, not paper tuning.

Not trying to pick on you; this is a hobby, and we should all do whatever we're comfortable with.

I'm just lazy. Bare shafting a finger shot bow is classically done at 5 yards, since that minimizes artifacts (paradox and minor release glitches) and by 10 yards the fletching has stabilized the arrow. There's only one reason for a fletched arrow to DEstabilize (show a tear at distance, and not close up), is because of insufficient FOC, which is "almost" impossible these days. (Aluminum target arrows run as low as 7%, and you'll never see a trad arrow that low.)

For me, it's just easier to carry a couple of bare shafts in my quiver.

Viper out.

You believe whatever flatters you, Kiss-asstchie.

I live in a state with piss-poor hunting on public land and I don’t pretend otherwise, but I still shoot pretty good. And I shoot a lot better with arrows that are tuned & matched. If you don’t, it’s either because you don’t shoot so good, or because your standard fletch job is basically a flu-flu.

“Maybe I have just never been that good or met someone who is because I can't imagine being able to tell a difference made by an eighth of an inch.”

If we are talking about wood shafts here, I’m inclined to agree with you. With carbons…??

They seem to be a lot more responsive to small changes in shaft length, but with a heavy FP (say 175-200 or more), they seem (to me) to be fairly forgiving. Woodies are also pretty forgiving, but for different reasons and in different ways. So - regardless of shaft material- I just cut mine to my desired length, and I add or subtract point weight until my bare shafts hit down the middle. Call it good.

As Frank has pointed out many a time, you can get just about anything to work if you are willing to stick with it…. or you can cover up all manner of Sins with enough feather.

Bare-shafting taught me a lot, so I come at this as a Reformed Bumble. Props to 2bears for helping me along my way.

Corax who used to have a different handle, is one that listened & read with an open mind. Then gathered the equipment to shoot & prove or disprove what he read. He has come a long way in understanding & shooting bows and arrows. So far in fact that I can't debate with him much anymore besides he always did talk a little over my head. It was my pleasure as it is with helping anyone. I enjoy learning & passing things along. Every day I don't learn something is a day wasted. There are some excellent archers on this site & some very knowledgeable people. Most are willing to help newbies & share knowledge. I have learned something from many of them. Vipers book is an excellent source and a good read. Most anyone from beginner to seasoned archer could learn something from it. Shoot straight. >>>----> Ken

Was the first arrow every shot out of a bow have feathers on it?

Smokey -

Oops:

Bare shafting a finger shot bow is classically done at 5 yards

s/b

Paper tuning a finger shot bow is classically done at 5 yards.

Viper out.

Shooting the line,if the arrow hits left or right weak or stiff the same will show shooting that arrow through paper.no different just a different method to the same conclusion of tuning a arrow to your bow and shooting style.

I was setting up a new string the other day. Same maker, same specs, sane nocking point. The arrows were just a touch stiff. I messed with brace height but didn’t like the feel. I ended up sliding my silencers a little bit. Maybe 2”. It made the arrows shoot incredibly weak. I finally found the spot for the silencers that shot a perfect bareshaft again. It’s amazing what can change the tune on an arrow.

Vic Berger DID NOT INVENT the 'cushion plunger' type arrow rest ...

It was invented by Norm Pintin the 60s. Norm and his wife Shirley had an archery shop in Iowa and they were both PAA shooters back then. He called his invention a Panic Button and put it on the market in the mid-1960’s.

See: https://dicktonearchery.com/a-little-history-of-the- cushion-plunger/

Vic certainly may have popularized it and fixed some of the Pint- design plunger short-comings, but most interesting, in the patent search database, Martin Archery holds the patent for what we now know/visualize/use as a 'Berger-style' cushion plunger ... and that date is 1992!

... invented by 'Norm Pint' in the 60s ...

(Wish we had an edit feature here, LOL!)

I like never understand why anyone would use a bare shaft. My father has tuned thousands of bows and I don’t recall him using a bare shaft once.

Paper tuning ? Don’t really see much need there either.

To Mr Stout’s point - the older crowd knows how to tune and the arrows fly perfectly from the bow.. and if not they know what to do.

Frank

I like never understand why anyone would use a bare shaft. My father has tuned thousands of bows and I don’t recall him using a bare shaft once.

Paper tuning ? Don’t really see much need there either.

To Mr Stout’s point - the older crowd knows how to tune and the arrows fly perfectly from the bow.. and if not they know what to do.

Frank

Frank, could you describe the tuning process your father used on those thousands of bows? Thanks.

For me it was BW's TNT vid in the early 90's.Made sense to me.Certainly less time consuming than buying several spines and shooting till one proves best of the bunch.

I dont quite understand the dislike toward bareshaft tuning. We are literally benefiting from the trial and experiences that other before us has undertaken. And well....by science. Why wouldn't you want to understand why an arrow is flying a certain way?

"Give a man an arrow, he can learn to adapt and shoot that arrow eventually. Teach the man how to make an arrow fly straight, he can fly that arrow straight."

Feathers are your friends. As I was always told, it hides a lot of your imperfection in your form.

Like an experience mechanic can tell what is wrong with your car just by the sound because they have the experience, now they can just plug a device into the port underneath the dashboard and the computer can tell them most of the time what is wrong with the car.

Good or bad I'll add this. I was 4 spots behind in a 3D years ago when the rain came. I was the only guy in our group that could still get good arrow flight. I made up the points.

It isn't a dislike of bare shaft tuning. At this point in my archery life I feel I understand why my arrows do what they do. For my shooting purposes with the equipment I use most I just don't feel it is necessary.

"It isn't a dislike of bare shaft tuning. At this point in my archery life I feel I understand why my arrows do what they do"

^^^^^I COMPLETELY agree with that^^^^^

H -

"I dont quite understand the dislike toward bareshaft tuning."

Well, I do. To bare shaft or do any kind of formal tuning, you need decent/consistent form.

Yes, I'm implying exactly what it sounds like I'm implying ;)

Viper out.

Wow! I guess anyone born after 1973 might as well just give up! We all know anything after 1973 is no good. And anybody worth anything was BORN with 50 years of experience. SHEEEESHH! Glad I was born in '59, maybe I will be allowed to go on I stay quiet enough.

Yes, perfect form is a must for perfect bare shaft tuning. But, it is a good tool for making sure you are in the ballpark for your setup. So, sub-perfect form will produce sub-perfect tune, kind of equals out. You know if it is a form issue if your bare shaft is straight one time, an not on the next or the complete opposite. But, if you bare shaft and it curves one way or another in a big way, you need to adjust for spine. No, we all do not have perfect form all the time, but bare shaft tuning is a good tool to use.

Personally I found comparing the flight of fletched regular arrows vs. those (also fletched) but with broadheads attached, to be the "fastest way for me" to correct tune (adjust OAL) to the bow.

Courtesy of A&H Archery via www.ACSBows.com

But it really s#ucks on here ... when "some proclaim to know a superior method", but do NOT share that info ... and worse, they disparage people for even opining a different method, that may work perfectly well 'for them'. Way to go people!

There is no need to bare shaft. There is no need to paper tune. There is no need to improve. Ask what arrows you need for your bow. Buy them with big feathers or fletch them with big feathers. Shoot & have fun. Folks are just passing on good information. You don't have to do it or even read it. If you don't have perfect form & you have the occasional fliers or don't shoot tiny groups You can still profit from bare shafting. It just takes a little longer and the gains may be smaller. Cover your target or backstop with a sheet of paper put a spot in the center. Take 2 or 3 bare shafts & 2 or 3 matched but fletched arrows. The more the better. If you are shooting reasonably good & can keep your arrows on target at 20 yards shoot, circle the bare shaft holes with a black marker & the fletched holes with red. Shoot at least a dozen ends & check the pattern starting to form. Don't stop there leave the paper & continue the next session or the next day. You will see the center of the 2 patterns differ. Look at the guides & instructions & you will know to move your knock up or down a tad or to move your strike plate in or out, to add or subtract point weight to change spine. Make the little corrections to move the 2 groups together. Guess what the overall group will be smaller. How much smaller depends on how big of a correction was needed. Have a good archery day, >>>----> Ken

Photo 2 - Courtesy of A&H Archery via www.ACSBows.com

"some proclaim to know a superior method", but do NOT share that info"

Who did that?

- Viper

Yup, guilty as charge, my form is nowhere near even decent!

Just with most things in life, its usually the human that is the weakest link.

I have been told many times that beginner should not try to bare shaft at all.

But I do think its something useful and I try to do it when I can just because I like that feeling of accomplishment when I CAN get a straight arrow consistently.

You can do the exact same test with broadheads & field points true enough. Broadheads are much harder on targets & some folks like to get equipment tuned before purchasing broadheads. That exact same picture is in the Easton Arrow tuning guide. They show it with broadheads & field point fletched. They show it with field points & bare shafts both with field points. The corrections are exactly the same. I don't know how to transfer picture in book to computer. Will someone help me out. This is all good information for everyone.

It is much easier to do with bare shaft then check your broadheads. Instead of tearing up your target. They are hard on 3D targets, block targets, if you use a bag forget it, & hay is probably pretty tough too. I haven't shot a broadhead into hay. >>>----> Ken

I save the rear end of my 3D targets that fell apart for shooting broadheads into. They tear the crap out of a block target in a hurry.

O.K. I took pictures of the charts in Easton Tuning guide. I will see if they will attach.

O.K. success. I took pictures filed them. Then they attached. Sorry I can't get all the writing with the picture but I believe basic instructions are all there.

1. Bare shaft & fletched showing nocking point adjustment.

2. Both fletched Broadhead compared with field point.

3. Bare shaft compared to fletched If you have any questions I will read the answers out of the book. I wish I could send everyone a copy of the book. The adjustment are the same for the broad head and the bare shaft.

Here's a link to the PDF of the entire guide;

https://eastonarchery.com/wp- content/uploads/2019/08/TuningGuideEaston.pdf

Sorry fdp we must have been typing at the same time. >>>----> Ken

2 bears said "It is much easier to do with bare shaft then check your broadheads. Instead of tearing up your target. They are hard on 3D targets, block targets, if you use a bag forget it, & hay is probably pretty tough too. I haven't shot a broadhead into hay. >>>----> Ken"

That's what I do...tune with bare shafts and check the broadheads into a block target. I try to protect that block target by shooting as few broadheads into as possible.

I have a lot of sand on my property and I've been meaning to build a sand trap for shooting broadheads into...for about 20 years now. Recently I got thinking about a local state WMA who used to have a big sand trap for a backstop on the archery range and how great it would be for broadheads. Well the sand hill is gone and there is a sign warning that broadheads aren't allowed.

Thinking back to when I belonged to an archery club and didn't have anyplace else to shoot, they didn't permit broadheads there either. I had to wait until I got the the deer woods to shoot broadheads but "target shooting" wasn't permitted there. LOL

Bare shafts have saved a lot of headaches for me.

These folk always bare shaft

These folk always bare shaft

Check out the European dude He has a dam good chance of a miss fire.New Guinea bows have flat bamboo strings.Arrows are about 4 to 5 feet long and no fletching.Compare the native New Guinean draw style to the European dude.I currently have 2 old New Guinea palm wood bows.One I guess is about 60 years old and the other is probably about 20 years.I don't dare try to shoot them. Osr

Thank you MGF Well said. >>>----> Ken

If you don’t bare shaft, you’re missing the details of tuning.

I've had minimal luck bare shafting wood arrows without snapping them, at 15 yards.

my feathered shafts shoot where I look. My bareshafts don't always. It is hit or miss. So I am good with feathers.

To each their own, I don't hold anything against anyone-to each their own. I always want the most efficient arrow getting to the target/game that holds the most energy for a passthrough. This can be done with poor tuning (close range) and lots of fletching but it is not as efficient (in energy terms) as an arrow that only wants to go straight with as minimal fletching as required. There are only two ways to this-paper tune and bare shaft tune. Paper tuning does good, but bare shaft tuning is the way to go in my opinion. Read into what the Olympic archers do (don't take my word) They bare shaft tune out to 70 meters.

This does matter for the most proficiency.

Whatever you guys do is up to you, but I bare shaft tune every set of 7 with TWO bare shafts with fletching cut off (to keep the weight as close as possible) and it tells me the story.

The true story. Try it, it doesn't cost you anything. You don't even have to tell anyone you did. You non-believers will be surprised.

My club had a sand pit and the state park I shoot at has a pit. And I've usually had my own. They cost a hundred bucks, give or take,to build and last forever if ya keep it covered. Maybe more now with lumber prices.

If you have a chrono, you can prove to your self that a bare shaft tuned rig shoots better/faster than if you just guessed and put on 5” feathers. It’s just physics.

So what if you have 2 arrows of the same profile, weight, length, feather size. One tuned for ideal flight using the bareshaft method, one tuned for ideal flight using the field point broached tuning method.

Then which one is faster and more efficient?

fdp I was going to try to answer that for you until I got to the "broached method" I am not sure what that is. I am willing to learn >>>----> Ken

I was typing on my phone and that should have said "broadhead/fieldpoint tuning method".

The answer is there is no difference.

It's all about tuning. One method is no better or no worse than the other. One method is no faster or slower that than the other. Either method should end with the same result.

There are personal preferences for which method each person prefers, and that's fine. But it doesn't mean that the method I choose is the best for someone else. And it certainly doesn't mean that a person who doesn't bareshaft tune is shooting less efficient arrows, is less skilled in tuning, has less knowledge, or is less ethical than a person who does.

What gets inferred by some of the responses on these types of threads is that anyone who doesn't care for the bareshaft tuning process is some how less of an archer than those who do. And it is apparent in some of the posts on this one. And it simply isn't true.

There are certain things in archer that are foundational and that every archer has to do to be effective. The most important of which is consistent shot execution, and it doesn't even matter what that looks like as long as it works for YOU.

Same as tuning. doesn't matter how you get there as long as you get there when it comes to arrow flight.

"To be honest, I’m not sure that it is of much use to those who profess the “instinctive“ style. If you don’t know exactly where the arrow is pointed to begin with, it’s going to be difficult to figure out whether the arrows are going where are you aimed them or not."

This may be one of the most ignorant things I've read on here.

I think one of the first things one should do is to grab a half dozen bare shafts and shoot them at a target. The group you end up with will tell you whether or not your form is good enough to tell whether you're able to BST in the first place. Sometimes it's just better to understand what you need to focus on.

Fdp, it’s certainly easier and faster to tune arrows by bare shaft method, especially if one has no access to spine tester . I think it’s an organic way of determining if you’ve got the right spine. I would think that primitive people could tell really fast if an arrow would work or not and it’s common sense that first they would shoot a bare shaft and then only fletch the ones that flew the best, natural progression. Yes you can reach the same point in perfect tuning by planing and bare shaft method , but bare shaft is more intuitive and organic . I’m not saying one is better than other, just faster. Jeffer, I think Jim Ploen explained it best as far as instinctive aiming goes.

Mechanic said: "If you have a chrono, you can prove to your self that a bare shaft tuned rig shoots better/faster than if you just guessed and put on 5” feathers. It’s just physics."

I don't think anyone has advocated "just guessing" in this thread. An experienced selection of spine to shoot based on the bow and your own shooting style is not a guess. And if the final result is an arrow that flies straight, impacts straight and hits where you want it to what does it matter how you arrived at that? How you got your arrow to shoot correctly has no effect on the chrono results.

I love these "It's just physics" comments with no explanation of which laws of physics you're talking about and how they affect things. Two arrows flying straight from the same bow will perform the same.

Who is Jim Ploen? Also, you lost me when you wrote "instinctive aiming." lol

"Fdp, it’s certainly easier and faster to tune arrows by bare shaft method,"

I understand your position and your belief, but that isn't true for everyone, which is the point I am trying to make. While it may be true for you, it doesn't make it so for everyone. For some folks it's easier and more effective to grab 3 spines of fletched arrows and pick from those and then tune the bow to achieve optimal arrow flight.

I have and have seen others snap a XX7 or a carbon shaft in half when bare shafting. Either due to tuning issues, wrong arrows, or form.

I will take risky shots on 3D or stump shooting with trees. It's nice to know that if I do my part the arrow will sneak past. Feathers can and will hide a lot imperfections in form and arrow flight.

Carry on.......

fdp -

That's true if you don't know or care about what you're doing.

The grab a few arrows and see where they go relies on visual evaluation of "the tune". The problem there is that a fletched shaft has to be far off before it shows any abnormalities.

Granted for most people here, it's more than close enough for gov't work, and that's fine. But, if you want, or even need more than that (and have decent enough form to pull it off), you might want something a little more "formal".

There's no right or wrong, but there is reality.

Viper out.

hawkeye -

There no such arrow as a XX7 (XX75?), and the only way an intact aluminum or carbon arrow is going to break by bare shafting is if the arrow is so far off, you miss the target and hit a rock. Sorry, but the same forces are applied to an arrow at launch, whether it's fletched or not.

Carry on .....

Viper out.

Viper.....that's your opinion which you are perfectly entitled to, and which I respect just like everyone else that post's on here.

However, just like everyone else who posts on here there is no one absolutely right opinion or method.

And this is not true at all,

"That's true if you don't know or care about what you're doing."

And that is reality as well.

Gentlemen, we’re taking about tuning arrows for optimal performance and best penetration. Just like Viper said, feathers mask tuning errors in spine. It’s easily proven, if you find the minimum spine that will shoot ok for the bow, you can also take an arrow a spine stiffer and it’ll still shoot ok. But the question is, will you get robbed of speed and penetration? Yes. Test it and you’ll see. Or don’t! I don’t care, it won’t affect me . I personally want the best penetration and I can only get that with a perfect tune for me, by starting with bare shafts, even when they spine perfectly within specs on my spine tester, because even those sometimes are flyers. If you don’t know who Jim Ploen is do a search on here. He’s only a top PAA and World Champion archer, no big deal.

Mechanic said: "I personally want the best penetration and I can only get that with a perfect tune for me".

I agree with that completely. Notice I left something off. If your arrows impact absolutely straight into a clean foam block at multiple ranges it would seem to indicate pretty darn good flight. And if they hit where I want and group well consistently what more perfection do I need? I get pass through penetration. Do I need even more?

Nobody has ever answered the question what more do I need from an arrow besides flying straight, impact straight and hit what I want.

Feathers do as much or more for form and shooting technique errors as they do for correcting tuning errors.

Archery focus magazine, v18 n2, March 2014 , Jim Ploen interview.

In that specific paragraph he is talking about nock point adjustments.

Guys -

Might we want to remember that this is a hobby? (Yeah, that's all it is.) Do whatever floats yer boat. What's "necessary" really depends on the level you're shooting or want to be shooting. And unfortunately, that's pretty easy to quantify.

Bill -

Nock point position and spine tuning are part of the same process. Split hairs much?

Viper out.

Yes, but the point is , if bare shafting was second to planing method, the pro’s wouldn’t use it.

I gotta say one thing about the wall. Physics gets beat to heck more than anywhere. And why get mad when someone does things differently than you. This isn't simon says. Its just the internet.

Oh, and as for olympians, they use x10 shafts which are tapered and have multiple spines in each shaft. Plus are ordered by length so if you cut the arrow it no longer works correctly and they do work fine since they were used to win every gold medal given in olympics and other oly style world championships since they came out around 20 years ago.

And still nobody will answer my simple question.

Viper,

No I am not splitting hairs. Yes they are both items that must be addressed during tuning but they are separate items.

" flying straight, impact straight and hit what I want."

That is good as it gets

Nobody has ever answered the question what more do I need from an arrow besides flying straight, impact straight and hit what I want. I will try to answer any question if someone wants an answer & not just to argue. Is that the question? You don't need anything more & if you are satisfied that is fine. All arrows will do that with enough feather to correct it unless something is terribly wrong. If you take the feathers off and the shaft is not doing that,it means the feathers are working harder to correct it. If the feathers are constantly working to straighten the flight it is costing speed. If the bare shaft is flying true then the feathers hardly have to work at all & are not slowing the flight hardly at all. Then you can even use smaller feathers for even more gain & a quieter arrow. If the feathers are working hard to correct the flight & you get caught in the rain, feathers get matted down they won't work to correct. If the shaft flies true without them it won't hurt anything. It is just an added benefit. You can live without it if you don't want to bother. Sometime a big buck steps out right after a rain. Sometimes it rains in the middle of a 3D shoot. Shoot straight, >>>>-----> Ken

2bears , indeed!

There ya go 2 bears!!! That says it all.

But what if I take 3-4 different spined shafts and cut them to 38 inches. I then bareshaft them and none of them fly great?

^^^^^^^At 38 you have plenty to cut off……….lol

Great post 2 bears! Very well stated!

Viper, with all due respect, I totally disagree. I have a 4'x4' x 2" piece of very dense of some type of foam back stop. It will stop arrows from 70# compounds and yet reasonably easy to pull a arrow out of. And it will snap a XX75 2117 or a 500 carbon bare shaft arrow in half with a bad tune or a bad release.

We have Block targets on our indoor range at Chieftain Archery club and they will also snap a poorly tuned bare shaft. Have witnessed it many times. Have seen many a surprised archer after they got a big tear in paper and had a broken shaft behind it.

28 sorry. My arrows have to be 28. I don’t want 6 inches of shaft sticking out past my bow

Mechanic, I just read about Jim Ploen and what he had to say about Intinctive archery and he's wrong. He's way off base.

2 Bears,

Sorry but if your feathers are working hard to correct the arrows flight you will see it and it is time to change arrows. It is not like I would just randomly select arrows to shoot out of a bow. I select a range of spines to start with that are appropriate for the bow. Consideration is given to various aspects of the bow like center shot, brace height, etc., etc. I watch the arrow. I look at its impact in the target from ten yards out to twrnty five or thirty. If it is straght at all ranges then I am expecting optimum penetration.

There is a reason spine/deflection charts have been around forever. They didn't make those numbers up. They work if you just think about the various aspects of the bow, arrow and archer combination.

I have never had a problem with broadhead flight if my field points are doing well. The only exception to that is if a broadhead wasn't mounted straight.

GLF

"Oh, and as for olympians, they use x10 shafts which are tapered and have multiple spines in each shaft. Plus are ordered by length so if you cut the arrow it no longer works correctly and they do work fine since they were used to win every gold medal given in olympics and other oly style world championships since they came out around 20 years ago."

Okey dokey.

Ah no, x10's have one spine for the entire shaft, and hos no bearing on the principles of bare shaft tuning.

No, they are not ordered by length, but each size (spine) does have a maximum recommended length that can be cut off. I've built a few.

And they were first released in 1996, so 26 years ago, but who's counting. And for the record, last time I checked, they were over $700 / dozen, but most Olympians don't pay for them.

And yes, Physics and facts do get beat to hell here and most of us aren't Olympians.

hawkeye -

If that did happen, and I seriously doubt it (see caveat below), the arrow would have to have come out literally sideways, which kinda means it was pretty far off base to begin with. That's why I don't recommend new shooters attempt bare shaft tuning, until I tell them to, and they are using a shafts that I recommend. Sorry, you can't fix stupid.

Guys -

The problem isn't what more do you need if your arrow appears to fly true and hit where you're "aiming", it's what do you do when it doesn't?

Viper out.

The charts get you close. So close in fact that if you are breaking aluminium & carbon arrows you didn't read the chart right or do what it said. I have never been so far off to break shafts.

Bill If your arrows are flying & hitting perfectly straight without big feathers or the feathers working too much then your bare shafts will too. You have done it without bare shafting. The rest of us can't do it or see the flight that well & need a little help. All you need to to is trim the feathers off one of your arrows then shoot a group at 20 yards including the one you cut the feathers off of. That will prove how good you are at tuning & make the rest of us look foolish. I hope you are not disappointed. I will send you replacement feathers plus some extra if you will do that. Take a picture of the group & post it. Good luck >>>>------> + ---------> Bare shaft Ken

I think maybe one big problem we have here is the broad spectrum of archery interests, equipment involved and the level of the shooters involved. We have people shooting everything from metal risered ILF bows to osage (and other) selfbows. Arrows go from $700 a dozen X10's to arrows made from shoots that people hand scraped and sanded. You have everything from ridiculously tight tolerances to spine groups that may be anything but tight.

You could conceivably hunt successfully with any of that. Or you could just shoot recreationally in your back yard. What irritates me is the repeated implication that bare shaft testing is an absolute necessity if you are going to be any good. Only us inferior folks can get by without it. All I want to do is hit what I am trying to hit. And in my case, IF (big if) I do my part my arrows do that without bare shaft testing.

Ken -

Close enough?

Viper out.

Bill I am sorry but no one is saying you have to bare shaft. No one is saying anyone is inferior. Of course you can shoot,compete,hunt without it. It is just a way to get the most from your equipment. Go shoot, forget everything I said just have fun. >>>>-----> Ken

Kitche you have posted 3 times now with nothing to contribute. In fact you are nothing but derogatory, insulting, & insinuating good people are liars. Your history is just much more of the same. Why do you hang around if we are all dummies & liars. You can put all the feathers you want on your arrows. I will bet anything you want Tony will out shoot you,using bare shafts in a 20 yard 300 game. >>>----> Ken

" Lol. Doesn’t take a genius to figure out bare shafting corax...you proved that." Kitche

" And yes I actually kill animals not just pretend I do on forums." Kitche

"Let me know when y’all arguing about something important like parallel vs tapered wood shafts or Flemish splice vs endless loop lol" Kitche

"Looks both nock high and nock low on a couple of them lol. Next time when your shoving them in the target by hand use a level" Kitche

Ken,

You yourself may not have said any such thing. But I have in the past been accused of everything from outright negligence to incompetence because I choose not to bother with it.

When I first participated on this forum 25 years ago bare shaft testing, at least among Leatherwallers, was just beginning to gain some interest. These days it has become a religion and you're a heretic if you don't profess belief.

My shooting is always about fun. Even this thread has been fun.

Take care. I'll go back into my corner and leave this alone.

I think the reason guys are seeing such success and penetration with much lighter bows is because more folks fine tuning. You certainly don’t need to tune to the max to hunt, but it’s not goi g to hurt. I killed a ton of deer by using a chart, fletching up and arrow and shooting. The flight looked good. It killed stuff. I bareshaft now because I have learned to. I have gotten to a point where my form is consistent, so why wouldn’t I want the best arrow flight I can get. Position of silencers show a big change in bareshaft tune, I doubt it would be noticeable on a fletched shaft.

The older I get the more I enjoy learning and knowing things for myself. Bare shaft tuning is interesting and gives more confidence in my gear. The best shot I know paper tunes only.

I've read this with great interest and have a proposition.

Viper, Jeffer, and Kisatchie can all have a shootoff to see who is the best shot based on how they tuned their arrows. Score counts. They all have to shoot at the same targets. Viper and Kisatchie have to shoot swinging bottle caps and candle flames and thrown discs and birds on the wing. How would they score? Viper and Jeffer have to shoot hogs and deer in the deep south woods, feet on the ground. How would they do? Jeffer and Kisatchie have to shoot a 20 yard 300 round. Hmm.

Who wins? Who brings home the better trophy? Viper's ribbons, Jeffer's ducks, or Kisatchie's hog. The trophy is in the eyes of the beholder. It's all for score although the trophies are different, and accurate shooting by choosing a style of shooting and equipment to match is necessary. By their discussion, some on this thread infer that one system is better than the other or that one method of categorizing accuracy is better than the other, or that one way of tuning trumps all the others. Why?

When these discussions come up, why is paper target shooting the only criteria for accuracy ever mentioned by the same certain people?

Just wondering.

Wow. This went way far out there from my original question. Just for the record, I bare shaft even with my mediocre form. I think it helps to get my arrows to fly with less defections. I AIME right down the shaft so I don’t care how much arrow I have hanging out there. It helps me feel confident I can hit what I’m aiming at. So in my opinion it works for me.

I knew I shoulda stayed out. Viper ur not only wrong but not even close. Go to easton and search x10. I also was off. Actually they been sweeping the podium in compound and recurve world championships. Plus they are barreled shafts so no they not the same spine end to end. Oh and last time I looked into them suggested retail was a little over 450 per doz bare sfafts. Go read the real experts writeup before trying to make people look silly. Everthing I typed came from easton. Nite guys.

Now we got us a good thread going . LOL

glf -

I don't have to research X10s, I already own them. I understand what they are made for, how they work and when they are totally useless. It's the difference between reading something off a website and actually doing it.

I also think I know why there's the dislike for bare shafts. They are not only used to tune the bow, they are used to tune the shooter. And that does require consistent form and technique. There's the real problem.

Like Ken said, you don't have to "do" anything, but please don't post stuff you know nothing bout.

Viper out.

Kitche How many appreciation threads have you had here? By the way that one had 25 posts & was one of many. Thanks for getting it axed. The accolades were rather embarrassing. 4 posts now & still nothing to contribute. You just can't wait to get back with your dummies & liars. Can you? You must be so lonely. I Never had any "super tuned long carbons" "hanging 6" out in front of the bow " Again you have no idea what you are talking about or you are making up deliberate lies. Either way it is just sad. Notice the good folks on this thread that have benefited. Do you think it was from anything you said? I will copy and paste what you wrote again if you don't know how to scroll up & read what you wrote. Have a good evening. >>>>------> --------> Ken

This thread has found it's way to the crapper....

I'd buy a ticket to see some of these conversations take place face to face.

I wonder if they'd continue with the same tone?

Ken -

It's not worth it, really. In effect, you're just feeding the trolls.

Viper out.

“The problem isn't what more do you need if your arrow appears to fly true and hit where you're ‘aiming’, it's what do you do when it doesn't?”

For the Win, IMHO.

If it ain’t broke, then don’t fix it, but in the extremely unlikely event that an individual is experiencing accuracy issues, it might just possibly come in handy to be able to rule out equipment error as the source of the trouble.

“When these discussions come up, why is paper target shooting the only criteria for accuracy ever mentioned by the same certain people?

Just wondering.”

Maybe this is a stretch, but I have this crazy theory that it might have to do with paper targets having a clearly defined exact center with standardized scoring rings around it so that you can see precisely how close to center your shot was and use your score on each end to determine whether your accuracy is improving or decaying.

I’m pretty sure there are those among us - maybe just a few - who could manage to miss a flying aspirin or a swinging soda bottle or a running rabbit or a twitchy whitetail for reasons that actually don’t have anything at all to do with how well our equipment is tuned.

To Viper’s point - if your shooting is always spot-on except for those shots where you know immediately that you’ve broken form, then you’re probably tuned pretty good.

If you have a tendency to shoot groups that are wider than they are tall, then you probably have either a tuning issue or an aiming issue, and bare-shafting is one way to rule out a tuning issue. If you tend to shoot groups that are taller than they are wide, then your tune is probably pretty good and you just need to shoot more at random distances.

Oh, and if your shooting is right-on with FPs but your broadheads won’t group into your field points, then your tune is Not Good Enough. Or at least it’s safe to say that it’s not as good as your shooting.

We even bare shaft tune down under lol I think Mr Ken Beck got it right when he said in his tuning videos. That your bare shaft is your coach.

I agree. I have realized that I can not shoot good enough to bare shaft so I just use feathers and kill deer. We are not Olympic shooters. Most would be well served to just practice more with their setup. That is what I do.

But you do realize that if you do a portion of that practice with bare shafts, you’re killing two birds with one stone, right?

Corax, my question was misunderstood. Someone can use any variety of target to judge how far off line one's arrow are missing the intended aim. John Schulz taught me to fine tune my shooting accuracy / arrows by shooting at a horizontal stick/arrow shaft to learn vertical/elevation accuracy and a vertical stick/arrow shaft to learn horizontal/windage accuracy.

When you're consistently breaking those shafts at 10-15 yards, your form and arrows are well tuned.

My point was when someone is judging shooting for score and subsequent accuracy, the test usually mentioned on these threads is some sort of target round, i.e. 300 round or Olympic target face or such...and never mentioned is a test or contest of wing shooting or shooting live game or even an old fashioned round of unmarked yardage field archery as being the standard of a good shooting test.

Corax_latrans said..."But you do realize that if you do a portion of that practice with bare shafts, you’re killing two birds with one stone, right?"

I usually have 1 or 2 bare shafts mixed in with my "practice" arrows.

yes Corax but the bareshafts fly like poop because I can not shoot good enough to make it work.

If you can hit with feathers you can hit the same thing with a bare shaft. You are still shooting the wrong spine---too stiff. You got your answer on several threads but you just keep searching for someone to agree with you or making the same comments. GET A WEAKER SPINE follow directions & they won't fly like poop. >>>----> Ken

Well since I have high blood pressure I am not going to worry about it. I have tried to not let those kind of things bother me. Sometimes it is hard for me to do. I agree with Viper that feathers cover up a lot of problems and I do not have the form or shoot well enough to bare shaft. I have read and studied it and sometimes I get the opposite results. Soooo. I am going to grab my arrows that work great with feathers on them and shoot and hunt. I can't for the life of me figure out that when I am shooting in the bullseye with an untuned arrow with feathers on it why I want to change anything. I do not shoot or hunt long shots so I quit worrying about it. When I make the Olympic team I will then worry about it. Now there. I can already feel my BP going down.

Well you don't have to worry about making the Olympic team either because they have to take long shots. Sooooo Your BP can drop a few more points. >>>----> Ken

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