Here's a nice old photo of Art Young shooting 3 fingers under while Saxon looks on......

The chin anchor was "the" anchor for most archers back then. Most of these early bowhunters were also target archers and shot long distances, which were the norm back then as well.

Here is William "Chief" Compton, who Saxton Pope called the best shot he ever saw on running game. He was also a noted target archer of the day, and was instrumental in getting Art Young into archery I believe.

Thanks for posting the picture Nemah. I have always wondered if Art Young really used three finger under while hunting and it looks like he did. I have watched the videos of him shooting fish and bear and thought he was shooting split finger.

No gloves or tabs? A friend of mine shoots bare fingers.

They used both tabs and finger stalls. Tabs are the oldest form of finger protection since they were easiest to make.

Dr Pope is wearing a jacket and tie. I only wear those to church. :)

These gentlemen are incredible archery pioneers. Jawge

Apparently a bunch if GAP shooters! ;

That was a joke Runner...I didn't 't just fall off the turnip truck !

I wear a tie to all the shoots.,

@ George: His attire strikes me as appropriate... I always kinda thought archery IS a religion, and, often is full of profound spiritual experiences... ;^)

Split finger is called the Meditteranian loose in older literature and is thousands of years old.

A couple of things.

Compton rarely shot targets, he didn't like to shoot in front of folks.

"In Southern California, Compton flitted in and out to our meets–always welcome, even though he seldom took part in the contests. Compton was primarily a hunter and not a target archer." George Brommers

Young is not shooting "three under." He is using the "Sioux lock" or "Tertiary" release, common to the native American tribes of central North America, as taught him by Compton. I believe[from memory, could be wrong] there are photos of Young using the Mediterranean release as well.

The thumb is hooked around the string and secures the nock of the arrow between it and the index finger, which is under the string. Three and even four fingers plus the thumb are commonly on the string. The string is typically drawn by two or three fingers with the little finger simply touching the string.

The five historical releases are the Primary, Secondary, Tertiary, Mediterranean and Mongolian.

The modern "three under" has no historical significance as it was a hinderance in warfare and primitive hunting situations and rarely used. It was so insignificant that it was never classified as a "release" by those studying archaeology, ethnology and anthropology.

Watch an old movie clip of a baseball game and see all the men dressed up. Jawge

What is the broadhead on the end of the arrow? Looks ver white.

LA,

Thank you for the info. I have seen other photos of Young and thought his hook to the string just looked different. Now I know. Quite interesting.

sorry Cliff,

But im gonna hafta respectfully disagree regarding Mr Young and his hold on the string.I contend,that he is using a 3 under hold very much like people use today,although with a deeper hold.In the pic above,i believe that his thumb knuckle is too far back and his hand too straight to have been using the "Sioux lock".But, in the spirit of friendly debate,i present further evidence,in another pic taken,showing the nock and inner portion of his drawing hand.

http://selfbow.com/pny4.html

In this pic,one can clearly see the nock,with fingers under and no assist by the thumb.

That broadhead is likely one of the ones he and pope made and designed theirselves. Later the asked a company in (CA?) to make the. For them to their specs. 5 years ago I downloaded a free book from itunes called "Hunting With The Bow and Arrow" by Saxton Pope on a whim. It inspired my love affair with archery and I've been hooked ever since. Always hunted with guns before that.

"In this pic,one can clearly see the nock,with fingers under and no assist by the thumb."

It is difficult to get a clear look on some of these old photos if you have a small sized imaged to zoom. But rest assured Art Young learned the "Sioux lock" release from Compton and he has that thumb on the nock. Here's another look.

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=14;t=005671

The advantage of shooting three under is to get the arrow under the eye for "gun barreling." This is not a very good loose for heavy weight bows. I suggest you will find very few photos of modern "three under" archers anchoring low. The "Sioux lock" was the predominate release across most of the United States with the Native tribes, particularly where Compton was taught the loose as a youngster. Many old photos of Native Americans are staged and show them in various looses. Those using three under typically shot lighter weight bows and many anchored in the chest because they preferred to fight at close quarters. They took their game at close range as well and likely anchored higher for that purpose with light weight bows.

The advantage of the "Sioux lock" as Compton and others termed the 2, 3, and four under with thumb above and over the nock[to aid in securing the nock] is in shooting heavy weight bows. This loose does not lend itself to high anchoring.

"The Sioux Indians were his[Compton] teachers. He uses the Sioux release, a tertiary type, all the fingers on the string, below the nock, thumb lightly touching nock, a very powerful loose." Saxton Pope

Could someone please post a clear (modern) picture of the hand positioned on the string/arrow in the position of a correct Sioux Lock?

Cliff,

Did you look at the photo i posted the link to?

I looked at the phot of yours,and i am not convinced by that photo anymore than the one posted on this thread.

As a 3 under shooter myself and with knowledge of Native culture,learned not by literature alone,i could debate most of your previous post,but dont have the time right now.I gotta go make a living.

In Edward S. Morse's book, 'Ancient and Modern methods of arrow release', 1885, he states that the Sioux, Arapahoe, Cheyenne, Assiniboin, Comanche, Crow, Blackfeet, Navajo and Omaha, all used the tertiary form of release as described by Liquid Amber above. In most cases the bow was held close to horizontal.

You can see a drawing of the release in the above mentioned book at FREE archerylibrary.com.

I have most of those photos.

With few exceptions, primitive tribes in North America pinched the arrow nock in some manner to secure it to the string. At least before their culture was corrupted.

The five previously mentioned releases "all" use some combination of fingers and/or thumb to pinch, insuring the arrow stays on the string.

Some folks looked at old photos and such and made inaccurate observations because they failed to research these subjects properly. It has resulted in inaccurate observations being printed and reprinted multiply times until it becomes the gospel. Most folks don't even know that primitive looses have been studied and published accounts of these studies from folks who actually observed and studied them when they were the norm. It isn't our fault, we simply haven't had the resources long that allow for easy discovery of these works.

The Apache used the tertiary release same as the Sioux that taught Compton, who taught Young. The three finger Apache release was drummed up at some time in the not so distant past and likely due to lack of observation because they didn't "wonder" where the thumb was.

For example, look at the two photos printed in "Bows & Arrows of the Native Americans" by Jim Hamm, 1989, paper edition on pages 148 and 149. All the Apache boys on 149 are shown using the "tertiary" loose. The Kiowa on page 148 is stated as using the pinch grip which is incorrect. This Kiowa is using the "tertiary" loose. The thumb is above the arrow and the fingers "all" below, at least two[probably three] on the string. Now, there are variations of how strong or light one uses the thumb to aid in securing the arrow. This old boy has hooked his thumb around the string pretty good, but his thumb is resting on his index finger which is under the string along with the rest of his fingers.

Now, there are always exceptions. And, I would agree that the modern three under is derived from the "tertiary" loose.

Cliff, are you saying Morse didn't know what he was talking about when he wrote his two books, the first in 1885?

Looks to me like 4 fingers under the arrow, and the thumb on the top of the arrow. Also the low anchor suggests nothing of today's 3 under look down the arrow style.

If you ask me a question on something I wrote, please be "specific."

Cliff, you mentioned in your above post that folks failed to research subjects properly on releases. I just wondered if you included the research of Edward Morse in your observations?

"I just wondered if you included the research of Edward Morse in your observations?"

Yes, as well as "Arrow Release Distributions[1927]" by A. L. Kroeber. Kroeber relied extensively on Morse's previous two works.

"Cliff, are you saying Morse didn't know what he was talking about when he wrote his two books, the first in 1885?

Now, what is it that suggests I'm "saying Morse didn't know what he was talking about?"

Cliff, I just wondered if you included him in your above statement, seeing as how you didn't acknowledge his research.

"Cliff, I just wondered if you included him in your above statement, seeing as how you didn't acknowledge his research."

I assumed since we were discussing "arrow release." One cannot discuss it without having read Morse's stuff. :)

Speaking of Morse, where did he place "three under?"

I don't doubt at all that Young has his thumb on the arrow nock, or on his index finger. I shoot the same way. It gives me something to do with my thumb besides just letting it "wander" around. I don't anchor that low, my anchor is the thumb knuckle in the hollow behind my ear lobe.

Im not disputing,that the Tertiary hold and release,was used by native people or Was taught to Mr Compton and passed on to Mr young at all. what i disagree with,is that Mr young continued to use the style with the augmentation of the thumb.As the pic that i liked to,clearly shows,he did not.If the thumb was used,you would not clearly see the whole arrow knock on the string,as the thumb would obstruct that complete view.where is the thumb,in that pic?I dont see it anywhere,does anyone else?

Cliff, unless I missed it, I don't recall Morse mentioning "three under" without the use of the thumb.

There are probably some folks on here still that haven't checked out what the FREE archerylibrary.com has to offer.

In his second book, 'Additional Notes on Arrow Release', the drawing of the Apache Indian is shown using one finger above the arrow and two fingers below it.

A Bhutanese friend of mine showed me that some- not all- Bhutanese archers do exactly that; 3 under and thumb on the nock. Some do the same 3 under that we do, and many others do ordinary split finger draw.

Who cares? Just enjoy the romance of the photo.

Traxx, I have looked at that photo and it of such poor quality that one cannot even tell his hand is actually on the string. Now, there is nothing to suggest he didn't experiment three or four under. But, considering the business he was in.....hunting toothy critters on foot, I doubt he would actually use three/four under. It is not a good release for shooting fast and insuring one's arrow stay where it is placed. It is interesting that Saxton Pope published an illustration[page 67] in "Hunting with the Bow and Arrow" showing archery equipment and the string had two nock servings.

If my memory is correct I believe there is a photo of Young shooting split fingers or Mediterranean. I have not been able to locate it recently and it may only be a figment of my imagination.

And, is is perfectly fine to disagree with me. :) It encourages me that there are still some folks who actually will go back and look at our history.

Anyway, if any are interested in this stuff, the three published works on the subject have been listed above and all can be accessed on the net.

Traxx, I have looked at that photo and it of such poor quality that one cannot even tell his hand is actually on the string

Interestingly i am amazed at the clarity of the pic,considering the time which it was taken and the close up nature showing exactly what we are debating.LOL

But, considering the business he was in.....hunting toothy critters on foot, I doubt he would actually use three/four under. It is not a good release for shooting fast and insuring one's arrow stay where it is placed.

Again, Im having difficulty understanding this position.I have experimented and used most all the release techniques,through the years.Not just once or twice,but extensively to give each one a proper chance to better understand their application.For me personally,the 3 under has become my go to technique.It is the technique,that i am the most proficient with and on more than one occasion,it has been the subject of compliment as to how fast i can reload and get off a shot.Maybe im the exception,but i seriously have my doubts.I consider myself an average archer at best.I will say,that unlike the pic you mentioned by Pope that shows two nocking points,i only use one and can use the 3 under,Mediterranean,modified mongolian and tertiary release,interchangeably although i must modify my style slightly to accommodate accuracy at fairly short range.Just think of the possibilities,if i were to tune,to those different styles?

If my memory is correct I believe there is a photo of Young shooting split fingers or Mediterranean. I have not been able to locate it recently and it may only be a figment of my imagination.

Are you referring to the one where he is dressed in suit and tie and it is taken from the front and slightly to the side? If so,i believe i saw that one last,in an issue of Instinctive archer,if memory serves me well.

And, is is perfectly fine to disagree with me. :) It encourages me that there are still some folks who actually will go back and look at our history.

Absolutely,

I only consider myself an amateur historian,when it comes to certain subjects and often its because those subjects have an interest in my family history to some degree as well.One of those subjects,is the Ishi saga.Coincidentally,in researching the subject of Ishi,i stumble upon the likes of Mr Compton,Mr Young and Pope.One thing i have learned in my research of Ishi,is that one can never let ones own opinion or personal bias in any shape or form,interfere with the truth,regardless of if we like it or not.Sometimes,the truth is more exciting and interesting than the fable.

It is apparent,that we will have to agree to disagree at this time,but i must say,it has been interesting and i have enjoyed this little debate immensely.I have enjoyed your contributions in the past and look foreward to more in the future.

This kind of debate is healthy and is a whole lot better and informative than most of the debates one reads on the LW anymore.LOL

Anything that leads to discussion of archery history,especially pre fiberglass archery history,is right up my alley.

Oh...that Pope. :) Jawge

If you have already registered, please

sign in now

For new registrations

Click Here