Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


How long to get "Good" ??

Messages posted to thread:
Aggieland 15-Feb-12
specklebellies 15-Feb-12
TJK68 15-Feb-12
Tradbh/on droid 15-Feb-12
fdp 15-Feb-12
Pickaspot 15-Feb-12
Aggieland 15-Feb-12
Inhimwelive 15-Feb-12
hunterbob 15-Feb-12
Ryman Cat 15-Feb-12
Aggieland 15-Feb-12
Inhimwelive 16-Feb-12
String Cutter 16-Feb-12
Rocket Dog 16-Feb-12
riddleosteel 16-Feb-12
TomL 16-Feb-12
Red Beastmaster 16-Feb-12
felipe 16-Feb-12
williethebarber 16-Feb-12
Woods Walker 16-Feb-12
johnnail 16-Feb-12
Woods Walker 16-Feb-12
ryersonhill 16-Feb-12
Slow Tack 16-Feb-12
Trillium 16-Feb-12
Whittler 16-Feb-12
Larry Altizer 16-Feb-12
Bowmania 16-Feb-12
dire wolf 16-Feb-12
Ryman Cat 16-Feb-12
William of Corpus 16-Feb-12
Britt 16-Feb-12
South Farm 16-Feb-12
David Alford 16-Feb-12
mcfowler 16-Feb-12
rraming 16-Feb-12
dire wolf 16-Feb-12
Jim 16-Feb-12
AWPForester 16-Feb-12
sdoowkcab 16-Feb-12
Aggieland 16-Feb-12
manitou1 16-Feb-12
BloodyFeathers 16-Feb-12
bogenschuetze 16-Feb-12
David Alford 17-Feb-12
David Alford 17-Feb-12
Rocket Dog 17-Feb-12
David Alford 17-Feb-12
David Alford 17-Feb-12
David Alford 17-Feb-12
aromakr 17-Feb-12
South Farm 17-Feb-12
Scott Alaniz 19-Feb-12
GLF 19-Feb-12
AWPForester 19-Feb-12
Aggieland 19-Feb-12
DougVarrieur 19-Feb-12
Rocket Dog 19-Feb-12
JamesV 19-Feb-12
longbowguy 19-Feb-12
RayJ 19-Feb-12
limbwalker 19-Feb-12
Pickaspot 19-Feb-12
Paintedsticks 19-Feb-12
kymoose 19-Feb-12
AndyJ 19-Feb-12
deerhunt51 19-Feb-12
kwikdraw 20-Feb-12
CarolinaBob 20-Feb-12
Billy Warren 20-Feb-12
vabowman 20-Feb-12
swampwalker 20-Feb-12
bradsmith2010 20-Feb-12
David McLendon 20-Feb-12
JusPassin 20-Feb-12
woodshavins 20-Feb-12
stavechoker 21-Feb-12
deerhunt51 22-Feb-12
hcorrigall 22-Feb-12
deadeye1963 22-Feb-12
BigAl 22-Feb-12
rraming 22-Feb-12
David Alford 23-Feb-12
David Alford 23-Feb-12
Nick B 23-Feb-12
gunner 23-Feb-12
SteveMcD 23-Feb-12
hillbillyking 23-Feb-12
David Alford 23-Feb-12
Joe Van 23-Feb-12
David Alford 23-Feb-12
David Alford 23-Feb-12
Bowlim 23-Feb-12
Bowlim 23-Feb-12
reddogge 23-Feb-12
Bowlim 23-Feb-12
Hal9000 23-Feb-12
roger 23-Feb-12
Aggieland 23-Feb-12
Aggieland 23-Feb-12
Bowlim 23-Feb-12
Winter Hawk 23-Feb-12
David Alford 23-Feb-12
David Alford 23-Feb-12
David Alford 23-Feb-12
Hal9000 23-Feb-12
Ron LaClair 23-Feb-12
David Alford 24-Feb-12
cch 24-Feb-12
Whittler 24-Feb-12
Stan 24-Feb-12
Ron LaClair 24-Feb-12
Ron LaClair 24-Feb-12
Stan 24-Feb-12
David Alford 24-Feb-12
roger 24-Feb-12
Hal9000 24-Feb-12
David Alford 24-Feb-12
David Alford 24-Feb-12
Ron LaClair 24-Feb-12
roger 24-Feb-12
Aggieland 24-Feb-12
David Alford 24-Feb-12
David Alford 24-Feb-12
roger 24-Feb-12
David Alford 24-Feb-12
DougVarrieur 24-Feb-12
kentowl 02-Mar-12
cjgregory 02-Mar-12
AZBEAR 02-Mar-12
John H 02-Mar-12
string wax 03-Mar-12
Fisher 03-Mar-12
Don 03-Mar-12
Don 03-Mar-12
bradsmith2010 03-Mar-12
Airos 03-Mar-12
Shifty 03-Mar-12
Cyrille 03-Mar-12
specklebellies 03-Mar-12
Wildhog 03-Mar-12
bluej 03-Mar-12
Viking 04-Mar-12
skullz 05-Mar-12
From: Aggieland
Date: 15-Feb-12




Just wondering for you guys that consider yourself a "Good" shot or are considerably better at shooting than the average trad archer. How long did it take you to get to that upper type level you are or were at. I know some have shot trad gear since childhood and that kinda changes the game a little or the timeline if you will. I'm kinda asking for those that just started shooting one day or those like me that were raised with a compound in hand and "Thank God" made the switch over. I would say on a good day like today I can group a softball group at 20 yds but to get down to that ping pong ball at 20 or whatever the Good/great shots can hit. How long did that take lol goofy question i know but just kinda wanted to hear stories etc of your experiences.. thanks.

From: specklebellies
Date: 15-Feb-12




From: TJK68
Date: 15-Feb-12




I have been using Trad gear for less than a year, and I shoot everyday, maybe only a few shots, but I shoot. I am by no means what I consider good compared to a lot of these guys, but I started seeing a big improvement after about a month or so. Now granted during warm weather I shot as much as 3 hrs every evening, and longer than that on the weekends. I still have a long way to go to get good, but I was able to kill a couple of deer and a turkey with my Trad gear this past season. I want to get better, that takes practice and lots of it, and this I don't mind. Just shoot and enjoy, it will come. Tom

From: Tradbh/on droid
Date: 15-Feb-12




I'd say about 40 yrs.!

From: fdp
Date: 15-Feb-12




Aggieland, if you can shoot ping pong size groups consistenly at 20 yards that puts you in whoooole other class from someone who is just "good". Strictly depnds on how WELL you're willing to practice. Some folks pick it up faster than others. Nearly everything you learned shooting a compound applies to recurve/longbow. Form, shot sequence, target acquisition/sight picture and so on. The biggest obstacle I've seen people encounter is trying to shoot too much bow, There's others who can give you a better answer...but I'd say a year on average.

From: Pickaspot
Date: 15-Feb-12




I know a few great 3-D shooter that reached the well above average status in just a few years of shooting. One shooter I am friends with, actually started making incredible laminated longbows that look and shoot as well as any I have seen. Shot his own bow at the most prestigious shoot in Oklahoma, " Mcalester Ammo depot shoot", about 600 shooter attend. He was the only person to shoot a perfect score. This after only a couple of years in Trad archery. He was also a collage golfer. He set his mind to being a great shot. Worked hard and accomplished it. Some people have a knack for excelling in everything they try. People like me also excel, it just takes my brain longer to figure it out. Hopefully it will happen soon :)

From: Aggieland
Date: 15-Feb-12




fdp.. I agree with what you are saying, I have always been blessed with great vision and Eye hand coordination. shooting bows, shotguns etc always has been something that came natural to me. With my last compound I could hit a pie plate 4 of 5 times with broadheads at 90 yards. It became boring and sorta out of control. I have shot bows since I was 7 or so years old but they were compounds without sights then i got into your standard compound bows. I have been shooting a bow that for me is actually what I would consider under weight at 40# I'm 32 and was into weight heavy training for 15 yrs. Anyway, I just wonder how long it will take to become great if that's even possible for me.. I shoot almost every day at least 40-50 arrows. So I believe I can do it if I stay with it and work hard.

From: Inhimwelive
Date: 15-Feb-12




If were talking about hunting there is a lot more to being good then being able to have a tight group at 20 yards.. Can you walk out in the woods and pick a softball sized target at unknown range and then hit it? Can you make down hill shots and uphill shots? If you have someone who can give you good instruction that will definitely speed the process. There are a lot of mistakes you can make starting out and once learned they're hard to unlearn.

From: hunterbob
Date: 15-Feb-12




If you are hitting softball sized groups already . then I would say you are pretty good.

From: Ryman Cat
Date: 15-Feb-12




Years so are you in the short run or the long run? Trad is a way of life not a way of shooting.Any one who thinks its a way of shooting won't survive the long haul simply because they hadn't made it a way of life.

When you are old and look back at your accomplishments, ribbons, metals, trophys, animals harvested big and small, fish, birds, shoots and your trad buddys theirs alot of things that went into you education, perseverance and just the plain satisfaction you did it all these years the hard way.

Anyone can pick up a popper and shoot and make noise. It takes a certain individual and dedication to get proficient.

What kind of a question is to get good anyways? Let me say this your only going to get out of anything what you put into it and thats in all of life.

Don't practice, don't lern how to tune your equipment,don't learn woodsmanship, don't hang out with savy other archers, don't go to shoots your only adding to your own frustration and possibly trustrating the ones who try to teach you and have wasted their own time.

Get the picture you should then. Find yourself a mentour and go jump in his back pocket and lern from them.

Cat

From: Aggieland
Date: 15-Feb-12




Lnhimwelive I agree, I don't usually shoot tournaments, I hunt like most here. I wanted to ask this question because I don't what to get stuck at a "level" for a long period but get lessons if needed before getting frustrated at some point. If that makes any sense..

From: Inhimwelive
Date: 16-Feb-12




I wish when I 1st started I had someone to instruct me.. My father was a lifelong Archer but he was gone for 20 years of my life. So I was self taught and honestly I did a poor job.. I started out with a bow too heavy to learn proper form on and then I went up in weight. I made the mistake of thinking since it was easy for me to draw then it was what I should use. If your primary goal is hunting then this is my best suggestion get several 3d targets and set them up in the woods. Then practice shots from every position and angle and distance without knowing the yardage. I have seen guys who could pile arrows up at 40 yards miss an easy shot at 25 yards because they couldn't judge distance or they were thrown off because the target was up or downhill.

From: String Cutter
Date: 16-Feb-12




It taken me 11 yrs just to get bad!! LOL

From: Rocket Dog
Date: 16-Feb-12




The amount of time is up to you. If you practice "well", you should see improvement day by day or week by week. If all you do is fling arrows at the target, your improvement will be very slow. If you make the effort both mentally and physically, you should be as good as the average trad archer in a few months. As a weightlifter, you didn't build your strength by doing 1 casual set 3 times a week. Put as much time and effort into archery as you did weights and you will see great improvement.

Your IDEA of good is as good as you are going to get. If you think softball size groups at 20yds is good, that's what you will shoot, and when you accidently get a golfball size group you will brag about it. If your goal is softball size at 70 or 80, don't post it here or you will hear all the reasons it is not humanly possible. Don't limit yourself by what someone else says can or can't be done.

Tight groups are great. Getting the group to be where you want it is even better.

From: riddleosteel
Date: 16-Feb-12




Saxon Pope once wrote that he went to visit an archer in England that almost everyone in the English archery community agreed was a "good" archer. Saxon found the elderly gentleman sick in bed. During the conversation they touched on the old man's lifetime experience with the long bow. He expressed one regret, he hated that he had come to the end of life. After 70+ years shooting he felt if he had a few more years he could perfect his form and release.

I think most of us can relate to that.

From: TomL
Date: 16-Feb-12




Aggie, Go to TGang. You'll likely get an answer that will give you a specific amount of time or number of arrows... Just ask one of the "X sperts" there... All it takes is to shoot a lot of arrows and soon you'll be achieving all your expectations... What a joke!

TomL

From: Red Beastmaster
Date: 16-Feb-12




It depends on what you want to get good at.

Repetitious 20yd bullseye practice doesn't mean much in the deer woods. It establishes good form and muscle memory so you can shoot without thinking. It can also lead to a static shooting style and negative mind games. I try not to do too much of it.

I started to get "good" when I bought my first Judo point. Get away from your range and do some roving, stump shooting, or whatever you want to call it. Just take your bow for a walk and shoot at what catches your eye. Your accuracy will quickly improve and you are preparing yourself for hunting season like no backyard target range can do.

From: felipe
Date: 16-Feb-12




Depends on your breeding...

From: williethebarber
Date: 16-Feb-12




Still trying but its only been about 50 years.

From: Woods Walker
Date: 16-Feb-12




It's a lifelong journey, not a destination. Some days I am unbelievable and some days not so unbelieveable (or even believable for that matter!)

What DOES change is that my level of "not so unbelievable-ness" on the whole continues to improve as time goes by.

The way we shoot is a VERY mental (all archery is mental of course, but our method is more so because we have a minimal amount of gear to fuss with and to blame for our poorer shooting), and after your form/mechanics are solid then the main limiting accuracy factor is your level of concentration.

From: johnnail
Date: 16-Feb-12




22,018 shots. Exactly

From: Woods Walker
Date: 16-Feb-12




Oh...and shoot....A LOT. I average around 10,000 to 12,000 practice shots a year. And I should probably do more.

From: ryersonhill
Date: 16-Feb-12




I agree with Red Beastmaster, i own more judo points than anything else, nothing will make you learn quicker than being in the woods roving with a quiver full of arrows, I switched from 3 fingers under to split finger shooting and training my brain at different ranges is all about repetitive shooting, I try to shoot indoor during the winter months here in Maine while the snow is deep but it is not the same as roving and jug shooting with Judo's, can i hit the x ring at 20 yards every shot indoor, no, can i burn a hole in the side of a red squirrel in the cedar thickets behind the house more time than not, I try to rove shoot at least a hour a day during good weather, i have a cheap 3D range outback of my house made up of milk jugs of different sizes and plastic coffee cans and just head into the brush and start shooting, if you have a lawn and a judo you can build a 3d course any where

From: Slow Tack
Date: 16-Feb-12




If I recall, Maurice Thompson (The Witchery of Archery) said it take approximately two years of diligent practicing.

From: Trillium
Date: 16-Feb-12




"Good" is an extremely relative term. It may mean that you are simply happy with how you are shooting, and there are plenty of folks who are happy with defining "good" as, for example, being able to kill a deer at 17 yards a couple of times a year. And that's cool, and maybe that's you.

On the other hand, "good" may involve a comparative analysis --"good" compared with whom? If that is your question, you must have some standard measurement against which you can compare yourself with others. 3D shoots range from silly- easy to butt-kicking, so that is not a reasonable test of good (although if you can average 8+ points for 30 targets at a any 3D shoot, you are doing pretty well...), and hunting success has as much to do with hunting skill and killing skill. So, IMHO, a standard shooting challenge is the ONLY objective, consistent test of "good" by which you can measure your skill against shooters across the country (and even world) . In the old days, it was a York round, or an American round, but today the NFAA 300 round is so widely used that it seems a reasonable measure of "good."

On a blue face, if you can average (consistently, round after round, month after month) in the 240s with an off-the-shelf hunting rig, you are probably shooting in the upper 25% of traditional shooters. If you can stay consistently in the 250s, you are probably in the top 10-15%, and anything above that consistently and you are pretty elite.

So, how long? Well, that depends less on the amount of practice than the quality of practice. But also understand, that as you improve the amount of work you must do to become even better increases geometrically -- it will probably take ten times more effort to go from a 235 average to a 240 average than it will take to go from 200 to 220, and ten times more still to go from 245 to 250. As the tolerance for error goes down, the effort required goes way up.

Off hand, to get "good," say a regular average in the 240s, plan to spend months and months of hard, high quality practice. Maybe more. You may need to spend weeks "tweeking" your release, weeks fixing your grip, months fixing your sight picture, a year rebuilding your form, and years UNLEARNING all the bad habits you acquire over time, etc. Throw in the odd crisis of target panic and general insecurity, and you may have years of work. So, the ultimate thing is that you have to patient as you work to be productive, love the practice more than the outcomes. If you want to be like most outstanding shooters I know, shooting must be a part of your life, and you can never be satisfied.

From: Whittler
Date: 16-Feb-12




It's a learning experience. I look at it like playing guitar when you play your first cord your on your way to learning. The more you learn the more you there is to learn.

It sounds kind of weird but It's something you enjoy so you keep on shooting and learning. Hope this makes sence lol.

From: Larry Altizer
Date: 16-Feb-12




If your shooting a softball sized group everytime you shoot then i'd say your good enough....

It really doesn't matter if you can hit a penny everytime you sling an arrow, what matters is that you can do it anywhere anytime on command...

I didn't start shooting my stickbow well untill i decided that it was the bow i was goina hunt with and let the compound go...

Once i did that i didn't have a choice, plus i was commited to shooting as well as i could, so within 2 weeks i was hitting the 3D range and thought i shot my bow well enough to hunt with...That was 20yrs ago or so...

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 16-Feb-12




This has been hinted at but not stated directly. I'm a stubborn knot head from the pre compound era. Learned everything including all the bad habits by my self. Now, think about those bad habits, without someone telling me they were bad, it took be a looooooooong time to know they were bad.

SOOOOOO, to answer your question are you a stubborn knot head like me or would you go some place to get some coaching? If your a stubborn knot head figure on 20 years (I have 50+ years into archery). Who are you?

This remind me of a response on the Let's Improve our shooting threads. Guy said that it always amazed him that guys try to push their style of shooting on other people. Can you say stubborn knot head.

Don't try to do it yourself. Have someone else show you how and SHORTEN THE LEARNING CURVE, don't lenghten it.

Bowmania

From: dire wolf
Date: 16-Feb-12




I think that any reasonably fit person can learn to shoot well with proper coachimg and matched-fitting bow-arrows in a month or so. Learn the BASICS well and get them firmly in your mind, body and spirit.

Becomming 'good' at your archery is then a matter of practicing for that sort of archery diligently.

Might be A-Roving..Might be 3D..Might be wing shooting birds and frisbees..or aspirins..:) Might be running small game targets..Might be elk or deer or possums on the back porch..:) Might be longer distance American or York type rounds or archery golf or clout.. Could be indoor D.A.R.T. shooting .. There are many different types of archery pursuits..

Most of us have several that we favor the most..

I think that all of us will go to the happy hunting grounds one day just a trifle under our full capabilities..but the important thing is we endeavor to improve..and enjoy the archery we have chosen..Jim

From: Ryman Cat
Date: 16-Feb-12




Yeah go ahead and shoot loads of arrows with bad form and release issues and just lets see how you progress?

A good target shooter don't make a killer either with sicks. For this very reason is why others give up and quit and go back to guns or their compound bows or they wounded a few animals which is all part of the learning curve.

Get yourself a mentour if you don't want to give up.

Theres several things to learn you can't learn here because you have to experiance this for yourself.

It takes years just like anything else theres no quick fix or answer other than lack of knowledge answers. You are going to need discernment or watch a dog chase his tail because it will seem like that if you don't get the proper instruction and listen to wives tails.

It's to become the arrow and repetition that translates into time after you have learned proper form along with the cast of your bow and the proper tunning of your equipment. Once again someone needs to show you.

Isn't this the reason the proffesionals have coachs in sports to keep pointing out the basics. A mentour does that and strives to keep you focused. Archery is a game of inchs targets or game and it takes a levell of mental stability to exicute the proper shot.

From: William of Corpus
Date: 16-Feb-12




Focus on form, that is the key. For several years I flung arrows. Got to the point I was not anchoring, target panic big time. Got a "cure" from Dr. Kidwell via his book. Went to a lighter bow and worked on form. Learned to anchor again. On a good day 20 yards I can put arrows in a softball size group. On bad days I stop shooting and wait for another time or day. Today, a good day is staying on form. Going to start roving this spring. Got 25 to 28 yards in the backyard. Need to leave the yard and go roving, practise is the only way to get "good." For me staying on with "form," is the most important part of shooting well. ps we all have flyers, usually when we get away from form.

From: Britt
Date: 16-Feb-12




Pratice humility and ask for help. Its very hard to self-diognose.

From: South Farm
Date: 16-Feb-12




Getting "good" doesn't take so long, but getting "better" seems to take a life-time. I'm not complaining either..

From: David Alford
Date: 16-Feb-12




Should take about one hr. for significant progress with my method. A few days to a few weeks to habitualize.

From: mcfowler
Date: 16-Feb-12




What south farm said

From: rraming Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 16-Feb-12




If you knew the STAR method you could achive the quarter size at 20 yards in 5 minutes, oh well!

From: dire wolf
Date: 16-Feb-12




Well..'good ' is hitting the mark consistently...WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS..whatever that IS for you as archers.

A bit better than 'competent'..:)Jim

From: Jim
Date: 16-Feb-12




Man you are taking this way to seriously! You are going to take the fun out of it and then you may end up throwing in the towel. Just strive for your first shot to be the one that hits the mark. One shot one kill!

From: AWPForester
Date: 16-Feb-12




There is nobody here that is gonna shoot ping pong ball size groups everytime. With that said , I agree with Larry Altizer, shooting groups ain't the standard to measure yourself with. Hitting what you want whether it be the 1 st or the 50 th shot under any comprehendable situation is the benchmark to shoot for.

Get the fundamentals for your form solid and you will achieve your goals. BTW, I am no pro but I hit what I shoot at. God Bless.

From: sdoowkcab
Date: 16-Feb-12




DID not read any posts...I switched last summer...received my curve 6weeks b4 my first kill...I learned from here to bareshaft...I learned from here FORM IS NECESSARY...I also learned to Keep it simple...those 6 weeks during the dating days...I and 3 others destroyed a 10 month old GlenDale target...which with some emails replaced it for free...2 of us were stickbow shooters...If I were to ask 1 question...How is your vision?

From: Aggieland
Date: 16-Feb-12




Thanks for all the info fellas. I hope to get better and better month to month. Sdoowkcab my vision is better than 20/20.

From: manitou1
Date: 16-Feb-12




Dunno... haven't got there yet!

From: BloodyFeathers
Date: 16-Feb-12




You are good when you think you are...enough said.

From: bogenschuetze
Date: 16-Feb-12




Johnnail, I think you're off by 25 shots!!!!!

From: David Alford
Date: 17-Feb-12




Shooting ping pong ball groups past 15 or 20 yds. is indeed difficult to do every time. First of all, you have to have a perfect release or nearly so. That is very doable and I think my students will achieve that. But the main difficulty is holding the bow steady enough. You'd have to be able to hold it with virtually zero deviance. This is the only advantage a compound will have over my method at say under 30 yds. (where the speed disadvantage is not that important). The compound weighs more and of course you have the let off which is very important as the archer is not taxed at full draw.

However, a heavy mass trad. bow at low draw weight (or a strong archer using a medium pull wt. bow) would be able to almost match the small movement deviance the compound shooter enjoys. And therefore, their accuracy can be almost be approached. I honestly think the method is capable of exceeding Olympic bow accuracy assuming use of a top of the line target bow vs. a short hunting bow. That said, it works great with short bows - even 50" bows and less. The reason is there is no finger pinch with some of the release methods.

This is not magic, rather it is a matter of purposely defeating every problem trad. bows present so that one is left with few disadvantages. Hence, it doesn't take long to get good and it doesn't take much practice to stay good either. Of course, that doesn't stop one from practicing as much as one wants. Indeed, practice is more fun than ever when you are being successful.

From: David Alford
Date: 17-Feb-12




Realistically, I'd substitute tennis ball size groups for pin pong ball size groups. And even that may be optimistic if one is honest. The main thing, your arrow should never be more than a few inches from your mark, if it is, don't blame yourself, blame your execution and analyze why. There is always a reason...

From: Rocket Dog
Date: 17-Feb-12




David's point about the bow arm is extremely important. From my own experience, the bow arm is the most difficult part of form to control and any wiggle, wobble, drop, recoil etc, will make the arrow go somewhere unexpected. That's a very strong argument for using a lighter, controllable draw weight. Or for doing some archery specific weightlifting to increase your ability to hold steadily.

As for being able to hit any spot you want to any time, I have never figured out why you would be able to hit any spot you want while roving or 3D-ing, but don't think it is valuable to hit the same spot every time on a static target. The goal is to be able to hit the spot every time in any situation. You either can or can't. If you can hit the spot when roving, wouldn't you be able to hit that spot on a target, thn repeat that shot a few more times?

I think order you gain success is important. Learn to hit a specific spot on different parts of the target, shooting from different yardages. When you have mastered regularly hitting a variety of spots, then you should be able to shoot your groups where you want them

At longer ranges, say 45yds out to 100yds, you will discover the absolute necessity of proper bow arm form, At some point, everyone shoots groups.

From: David Alford
Date: 17-Feb-12




Grip plays a large role in the steady bow arm (how one places one's hands on the bow grip as well as the type of bow grip - high, medium, low). But form/stance/ whether one is collapsing or expanding - all of these have an influence on how steady the bow arm can be held. Also, even the release plays a major role. For example if you move the right elbow back (often recommended) there is a tendency for the shoulders to turn clockwise (in part dependent upon stance) and this moves the bow arm to the right - pulling the arrow in that direction as well. Often the archer is surprised with right hitting arrows when he felt "on" at the moment of release.

No surprise I am not a fan of a moving/swinging up bow arm for ultimate accuracy. Indeed, it's amazing one can be accurate at all with such a reversal of accuracy parameters!

From: David Alford
Date: 17-Feb-12




"For example if you move the right elbow back (often recommended) there is a tendency for the shoulders to turn clockwise (in part dependent upon stance) and this moves the bow arm to the right - pulling the arrow in that direction as well. Often the archer is surprised with right hitting arrows when he felt "on" at the moment of release."

I'll add, this phenomenon is also a function of draw length...a bit complicated to explain verbally...drawings can make the vector forces clear, however.

From: David Alford
Date: 17-Feb-12




Grip torque - probably 95% of archers lose accuracy even if the bow arm steadiness is solved with grip torque...however, it too can be defeated. The better compound manufacturers have really gone after this in recent yrs; trad. bowyers tend to pay much less attention than it deserves.

Make a list of every problem, defeat every problem, and what is left is accuracy...it is not so much practice time as it is a chess game...that is a pleasure; a little battle of will between you and the ever present Mr. Murphy.

Alternatively, one can "grip it and rip it" and just sling them arrahhs...up to you...

From: aromakr Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 17-Feb-12




I haven't read the other replys, and will try to be brutly honest with you. Most will never get good and damm few will even get fair. Let me qualify that answer with the fact that I'm 70+ years old and have shot traditional equipment since I was about 8. I was self taught and had some good instruction also. I spent good number of years making custom wooden arrows and teaching others too shoot also. We live in today an instant gradification society, where everyone wants to achieve success without an apprenticeship, that is not going to happen in this sport. There is much more to shooting a bow well, than just pulling the string back and releasing the it. Before you can achieve shooting success, you have to learn bow tuning and what constitutes good arrow flight. You have to be willing to spend hours learning what constitutes good shooting form and pratice that form, most are not willing to spend the time needed to do that. I believe those that seek out a qualified instructor and follow his advise will proceed the quickest. Those that choose to proceed on there own will have a long bumpy road ahead. Bob

From: South Farm
Date: 17-Feb-12




Who taught the instructor??? You can learn this on your own; it ain't like flying the space shuttle or anything!

From: Scott Alaniz
Date: 19-Feb-12




x2 what Aromaker said

From: GLF Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 19-Feb-12




Depends on your dedication to learning to tune n shoot well. Also depends on how many times you change your shooting style cause ya saw a video,lol.

From: AWPForester
Date: 19-Feb-12




David, no disrespect, but let's have it already. Been here 2 years and from what I gather it was several years before my time you keep teasing the LW with this superior shooting method. Not doubting it yet or your intent or ability. If it is no hoax put it out there. We all would like to be able to shoot ping pong size groups everytime. BTW, all the world record olympians and compound shooters would too.

Like I said, no disrespect but enough talk has been jabbed about this star method. Let's see it. God Bless

From: Aggieland
Date: 19-Feb-12




I'm glad this thread I started has continued on so long with so much great advice. After reading everyone's comments I believe the two biggest problems I'm having at the moment would be. 1. Not having my bow/arrow combo tuned perfect, this is something I will probably need to search out someone with lots of experience and make sure I have right. 2. Is basically shooting at one of three static targets over and over. I shoot close and far but its almost always at the same target set in the same place and typically when I miss I hit high at close range say 20-30 yds and then start hitting low when I shoot 40+ yds..

From: DougVarrieur
Date: 19-Feb-12




I've added lots of fun things to my target area, ranging from balloons blowing around on strings from a stick above (emulating a moving target) to water filled milk jugs on the ground (Turkeys standing still) to beer bottles lying flat on top of the target with the hole in the neck facing you (shoot em in the eye). I consider it a great day when when using 3 arrows I can hit a moving balloon, blow up a milk jug and put an arrow into that beer bottle right down the neck. Shaking up the aiming points VS just aiming at the same bulls eye is helping me improve my shots and it's just plain freekin fun :) YES the beer bottle is always a challenge!

From: Rocket Dog
Date: 19-Feb-12




You will never be accurate if your bow/arrow is not tuned. Yoou will be a much better archer when you learn how to tune. There are a variety of methods, learn them all, combine them, play with them. Every thing you learn is valuable to shooting.

If you shoot 5 arrows then go to the target and pull them and shoot again, try putting 5 spots on your target and shooting an arrow at each, maybe different yardage for all 5 shots. When you can hit those spots then you know you can aim, then shoot groups. Be sure you concentrat on the spot you want to hit -- don't be happy just hitting the target. Cut some 3/4" circles out of colored tape and put them on the target. Easy to see, easy to replace.

From: JamesV
Date: 19-Feb-12




I have been shooting 60 yrs and I think I am finally starting to dial in.

From: longbowguy
Date: 19-Feb-12




Most people agree that it is a matter of years; that's been my experience. And I am very glad of it. If this sport was easy to master it would have died out due to boredom centuries ago. The challenge is the charm. - lbg

From: RayJ
Date: 19-Feb-12




David,I'm with AWPForester,we've been hearing about your superior method for several years now.Why say anything at all about it if you are not going to reveal it.It would be best just to not say anything at all about it until you actually tell us what it is.This has gotten very old.I'm not saying that youn don't have a superior mothod.Maybe you do or maybe you don't but to keep saying that your method will transform traditional shooting and not to tell anyone what it is after several years just makes you lose all credibilty.

From: limbwalker
Date: 19-Feb-12




Asking how long it takes to get "good" is like asking how long it takes someone to learn calculus. Some folks get it right away, some have to work at it, and some never will get it...

Each of us learns at different speeds. That's just a fact of life. The best archers are "archery smart" meaning they are students of technique and equipment, and then apply that through dedicated training.

Practice without knowlege is usually just a good way to ingrane bad habits.

John

From: Pickaspot
Date: 19-Feb-12




@ David Alford, Unless you are using a mechanical type release. The only way I can see to reduce finger pinch on 50" bows is to reduce the amount of fingers using to draw. Using 2 fingers would cut the pinch by 1/3. I have played around with 2 and 1 finger release. I was not fond of either but my shooting accuracy did not seem to suffer much.

From: Paintedsticks
Date: 19-Feb-12




50 yrs and counting...PR

From: kymoose
Date: 19-Feb-12




Personally I consider shooting softball-sized groups at 20 yards to be quite accurate shooting...I think that only some naturally gifted individuals, with the right practice and persistence, will ever reach the "ping-pong ball sized groups" at 20 yards..

I think it is reprehensible for Mr. Alford to state that significant progress can be achieved in one hour "with his method"...that just gives false hopes to those that truly want to achieve better results with their shooting...and spend the time trying everything they can do to improve...

I happen to believe that the "STAR method" is a lot like Bigfoot...until some sort of evidence is revealed, it is purely just mythical...

From: AndyJ
Date: 19-Feb-12




This is a very interesting thread. I recently bought a recurve off a friend and have been shooting it every day. It is very addictive and practical. I have been shooting a compound for at least 20 years and recently have grown bored with it. Anyway, what books, magazines, videos, websites would you all recommend on form, technique and tuning?

As to the original thread. I am still not very good at shooting a recurve, but I am pretty darn good with a compound and with most other sports I try for that matter. I don't see trad shooting as any different than any other sport or skill. Most people can get at least OK with a decent amount of practice but only a small percentage becomes expert because only a few will devote the necessary time and willingness to learn. To be elite, say the top 5%, I think genetics have to play a role. There is a point where you either have it or you don't. Look at Byron Fergeson (sp?)or Ben Pearson and others in their league. 98% of the archers out there could get every coach, every piece of information and practice well every available moment and never touch the talent of archers of that ability. With everything I have gotten really good at, I have practiced obsessively, focused on my weaknesses, surrounded myself with individuals that are much better than I was, asked every question I could think of, asked for brutally honest criticism and listened.

From: deerhunt51
Date: 19-Feb-12




Two years shooting 5 times a week with some good coaching and ability to listen and learn.

From: kwikdraw
Date: 20-Feb-12




Getting good IMHO is shooting baseball size 3 arrow groups nine out of 10 times, within a normal time span - one hour or less, all within your comfortable hunting yardage range. When you are that good, go hunting! I personally set the goal of 30 arrows in a row in the vitals of a deer - 25 yds and in before I felt good about taking my game to the field. And although very proficient at 25 yds, I limit my shots to nothing over 18 yds. Those pesky deer are mighty quick!! My limit for my 300 fps Monster is about 27 yds. Again, those boneheads are very fast!!

From: CarolinaBob
Date: 20-Feb-12




1. Find a good coach, hard to see what you are doing. 2. Put a clicker on your bow, good form equals a consistent draw length, 3. decide what style you plan on using point of gap or instinctive,4. Stay with the style learning to come to full draw. Practice, practice.

From: Billy Warren
Date: 20-Feb-12




Aggieland, I never did get "good" but I got comfortable. Comfortable to me is to aim at a target point and not have any doubt in my mind that I can hit very close. When I was in college I took a course in statistics and one of the topics was standard deviation. For example, if at 40 yards my standard deviation is 3 inches I can feel comfortable in shooting my arrows in a 6 inch circle and not missing the target point by more than three inches. As it turned out, my deviation at 20 yards is about the same as 40 yards, go figure? I guess I concentrate harder the further I shoot. BW

From: vabowman
Date: 20-Feb-12




You will only be good when you put a method to the madness... Trying to shoot the wrong way,not being able to repeat the whole shot sequence you will shoot the rest of your life or maybe the next 100 years and not get to the point where you can cold shot and hit good.

Dewayne

From: swampwalker
Date: 20-Feb-12




55 yrs. Boy I hate to say that!

From: bradsmith2010
Date: 20-Feb-12




when you can hit the mark at the distance you choose,,, you are good at that distance,,, and i mean every time,,,(well mostly) good is such a vague term.... lots of room there,,,,,, i consider myself good,,,, but others may not,,,,,,so room for personal opinion,,, but shooting a bow is like playing a musical instrument,,,,,, some very gifted people learn it on their own,,,, others need instruction,,,, and may never be as "good" as they would like,,,,,,, but it will take you years to become consistent ,,,,, and you have to keep working at it,,,,just keep having fun,,,,,, try shoot with some great shots,,,,,and practice what they teach you,,,,,,and you will find your way

From: David McLendon Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 20-Feb-12




I raise, train and compete with field trial labs, the other day one of my vet's wife asked me how long it takes to train a competitive retriever. My answer was, "until he dies". Kind of the same thing with how long it takes to get good. Good is relative and becomes a moving target, the better you get then the better you want to be.

From: JusPassin Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 20-Feb-12




I haven't read all the posts, so maybe someone else on here has been as brutely honest as I am. Some of you never will. Just the way it is.

From: woodshavins
Date: 20-Feb-12




David McLendon: Absolutely perfect analogy!!!

From: stavechoker
Date: 21-Feb-12




very few of us are what i would call a natural . for most of us its asteep learning curve and a lot of practice means practicing our mistakes . my big breakthrough was going to bob wesleys bowcamp. everyone or nearly everyone would save a lot of time and frustration by employing a coachimho.

From: deerhunt51
Date: 22-Feb-12




Two years, 4-5 times a week one hundred arrows each shooting session. Join two archery leagues during winter.Read listen learn.

From: hcorrigall
Date: 22-Feb-12




Oh well my "grip it and rip it " works just as well as David Alfords "STAR" method?????

From: deadeye1963
Date: 22-Feb-12




How long does it take to get a coach?

From: BigAl Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Feb-12




I shoot an indoor 3D winter league which consists of 25 shots total at five various animals from ~13 yards out to a max of 30 yards. These are shot from five different stations...sitting, kneeling, standing, tree stand and ground blind. I'll consider myself at least approaching "good" when I can average an "8" (200 score) with no misses. I'm sure that score would be considered "poor" by a really good shot but, for now, that's my criteria. After I attain that I'll set a new goal!

From: rraming Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-Feb-12




Some may never get good, some it may come in a few years - good luck!

From: David Alford
Date: 23-Feb-12




"I think it is reprehensible for Mr. Alford to state that significant progress can be achieved in one hour "with his method"...that just gives false hopes to those that truly want to achieve better results with their shooting...and spend the time trying everything they can do to improve..."

That's my opinion which I believe I have a right to express. I also posted on some other points relating to accuracy if anyone cares to read them.

" David Alford, Unless you are using a mechanical type release. The only way I can see to reduce finger pinch on 50" bows is to reduce the amount of fingers using to draw." Well, you've overlooked nonmechanical releases. This is a perfect example of why people are so sure that...oh, never mind!

From: David Alford
Date: 23-Feb-12




Actually, significant progress can be made in far less than one hr...15 minutes would help many immensely. That's my opinion, regardless of how crazy it might sound. But the way I shoot the bow is different than the way others do, so don't impose your limitations on me. I don't want your negativity and don't say something is impossible, that word is hardly in my vocabulary. It's not impossible.

From: Nick B
Date: 23-Feb-12




David Alford,

I've learned a lot from watching others' videos. Will you post one of yourself at 20yds?

From: gunner
Date: 23-Feb-12




This might be a question more suited for the ladies! Sorry couldn't help myself.

Gunner

From: SteveMcD Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 23-Feb-12




All good comments and I have to agree with what Arowmkr said. A lot to be said about experience and maturity. However, just to remark on the comment about wanting to consistently shoot "ping-pong" size groups at 20 yards. A ping pong ball is about the same size as the "X" in the 5 spot of an NFAA 20 Yard target. To shoot an NFAA IBO 300 60 Round at 20 yards, would mean putting all 60 arrows in the X ring, hence a perfect 300 score. In all the years I shot NFAA League I only saw one traditional archer do that. And he was shooting a Recurve, 3 Under and very low draw weight about 36# @ 28. Consistently hitting a softball sized target at 20 yards is better than most.

From: hillbillyking
Date: 23-Feb-12

hillbillyking's embedded Photo



If you can hit a softball everytime youre good enough to hunt anywhere or win at 3 D Nuff Said !!

From: David Alford
Date: 23-Feb-12

David Alford's embedded Photo



Nick B., I recently said I had a window of opportunity before I leave on an international trip to make a video showing one or two techniques to some top archers and I asked for an opinion as to who would be best for verification. The method will hold up against the best, and I mean the very best. That thread got shut down because instead of suggestions of those top archers, what i got was insults so naturally Phil shut the thread down.

This guy was an Olympic archer and holds quite a few tournament records, probably higher scores than Howard Hill shot. He was also a trick shot and even Byron Ferguson recognized his skill. Maybe you know his name. I shoot with him and he knows, he knows...

From: Joe Van
Date: 23-Feb-12




I started shooting trad 4 years ago next month and ordered a Dwyer 62in53@28 and i couldn't pull the bow back. I went into the archery shop and thankfully the archery tech had a little trad experience. We measured my draw length and it was 30 inches so i was pulling almost 60lbs. Called Dwyer and they sent me the right bow this time.

So i started flinging arrows everyday for a couple of hours but 1 out of 5 would get lost. I got on these threads and found a guy who lived close and was also a world champion trad shooter who teaches now.

I went from split to 3-under and he showed me some things to do that would improve my form. I stayed with it and 3 months later the Howard Hill Shoot had arrived. I was so nervous that i didn't even get my bow out of the truck until i saw my teacher.

We shot with 2 older guys that had been shooting trad for 30 yrs and i out scored both of them. Later on i shot with 3 younger guys in there late to early 30's and they to had been shooting trad for years. All 3 were way over bowed and never came to anchor and there's no way they should be hunting with those bows.

So basically in 3 months i could hold my own but if i take a few weeks off it takes a while to get it back. On another note the guy who taught me how to shoot practiced at least 4 hours everyday for years and could out shoot the compound shooters at there indoor range.

If i was just getting started i would find a teacher mentor and do what he tells you to do. And when i practice now it's just like a hunting situation, i shoot at unknown distances and the bows i have ordered are all under 50@30 even though i can now shoot 60lb bows, just my 2 cents.

Joe Van

From: David Alford
Date: 23-Feb-12




Steve, the guy in the pic shot the first perfect 300! 60 out of 60 and he has the framed target to prove it.

From: David Alford
Date: 23-Feb-12




hillbilly, nice group, the type of group we'd hope all trad. bowhunters can shoot. Actually, I'd argue if a guy can consistently shoot 50% larger, even 100% larger and avoid wild shots, he'd be a heck of a bowhunter. It's the wild shots on game that we want to eliminate. But even the compound bowhunters and rifle hunters have this problem...besides being a good shot, bowhunting requires good judgement as to what shots should be taken...and it's not easy under the pressure of a fleeting opportunity.

From: Bowlim
Date: 23-Feb-12




I went to a PSE shooter school in 96. The whole purpose of the program, both 8o% let-off compound and recurve, was to: A) make sure everyone was up to speed on the basics. Most people did not have a proper release, and were not up to date on the latest tech. B) use a sneaky testing procedure to demonstrate to the archers present that none of them was strong enough to handle their bows. This was done in a way were you didn't know what was coming, and you could not argue with the evidence of your eyes when you finished the process. Out of 33 shooters, there were 30 who failed. The 3 shooters who passed were local stud 3D shooters, but even they had failed the release component, so their strength even carried them through a major tech flaw.

So who spends 300 bucks in 96 to go to archery school? Pretty serious archers who feel like they are doing it right; have put in the years; who execute well enough that they could star in a video in some cases; but just don't seem to have scores that reflect that. What is the main problem for 90% of them? They are lacking in strength. How many believes the are overbowed? Zero%. By oveerbowed I mean they can't handle the weight of the bows they were shooting, whether they should drop down or man up is for them to decide. The coaches mostly suggested working on strength.

I have related this story over the years many times, and normally there is no comment, it just gets ignored. I can see how that was the case when trad style was so often different from FITA, etc... But since I first started telling the story, a lot more "trad" shooters, and probably the majority of target shooters in trad, are basically sight shooters. Upright t-form, hold while aiming, use "sights" to aims, release. There is no difference in this style than what FITA shooters shoot, or compound release shooters. The fundamentals are identical.

From: Bowlim
Date: 23-Feb-12




I went to a PSE shooter school in 96. The whole purpose of the program, both 8o% let-off compound and recurve, was to: A) make sure everyone was up to speed on the basics. Most people did not have a proper release, and were not up to date on the latest tech. B) use a sneaky testing procedure to demonstrate to the archers present that none of them was strong enough to handle their bows. This was done in a way were you didn't know what was coming, and you could not argue with the evidence of your eyes when you finished the process. Out of 33 shooters, there were 30 who failed. The 3 shooters who passed were local stud 3D shooters, but even they had failed the release component, so their strength even carried them through a major tech flaw.

So who spends 300 bucks in 96 to go to archery school? Pretty serious archers who feel like they are doing it right; have put in the years; who execute well enough that they could star in a video in some cases; but just don't seem to have scores that reflect that. What is the main problem for 90% of them? They are lacking in strength. How many believes the are overbowed? Zero%. By oveerbowed I mean they can't handle the weight of the bows they were shooting, whether they should drop down or man up is for them to decide. The coaches mostly suggested working on strength.

I have related this story over the years many times, and normally there is no comment, it just gets ignored. I can see how that was the case when trad style was so often different from FITA, etc... But since I first started telling the story, a lot more "trad" shooters, and probably the majority of target shooters in trad, are basically sight shooters. Upright t-form, hold while aiming, use "sights" to aims, release. There is no difference in this style than what FITA shooters shoot, or compound release shooters. The fundamentals are identical.

From: reddogge Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 23-Feb-12




It's not whether you think you are a good shot it's what others you shoot with think.

David, seriously, what is the ETA on the STAR?

From: Bowlim
Date: 23-Feb-12




I can't get enough of that guy!

Yeah, and apparently it takes ten years to learn how to post...

From: Hal9000
Date: 23-Feb-12




While I am a little tired of David Alford's continual mentioning of his system without showing it yet, I do believe in his approach and understanding of the shot and that the compound guys are pursuing grips and geometry to take alot of work out of the shot (not the let off, release, or sights)

I believe the grip and the wall are the 2 biggest reasons for 60x scores on a 300 round.

I have read and watched most what is out there on shooting and have tried it, but I keep returning to a style that I kinda stumbled onto that I have not seen or heard of, yet produces great results.

I keep it pretty much to myself because unless you are getting lessons and working the bale like a religion, or from a certified coach, it doesn't count.

From: roger
Date: 23-Feb-12




Actually David, you insisted that Phil shut down the thread and you stated that you were done talking about it. I see that as usual, you don't keep your word and are not telling the truth.

From: Aggieland
Date: 23-Feb-12




Mr. Alford, I would love any tips you can send my direction. If you want P.m. me.. I take all advice with open ears..

From: Aggieland
Date: 23-Feb-12




Mr. Alford, I would love any tips you can send my direction. If you want P.m. me.. I take all advice with open ears..

From: Bowlim
Date: 23-Feb-12




Yeah, and some of the best grips on compounds are very crossover friendly to longbows.

From: Winter Hawk
Date: 23-Feb-12




"Good" is most likely in the "eye" of the person shooting the bow. As has been said, if you can hold your groups to the size of a softball at 20 yards on a consistant basis......THAT would be plenty good enough in my eyes. There are very few, if ANY that can on a daily basis shoot ping-pong size groups.

Truth is............some days are better than others. I tell people that I have an "addictive personality", which means that if I get interested in something that I get good enough to suit "myself".......which usually translates to "better than average".

I'm NOT there.........yet 8*)

Winter Hawk

From: David Alford
Date: 23-Feb-12




roger, yes I called for the thread to be pulled because of the vulagar personal insults. The fact is, I wanted to do a demo video and meet with some recognized top shots/experts/even archery coaches and had an open airline ticket that needed to be used. I have always told the truth here. Just yesterday, someone from the LW attacked me for being a liar not only about my method but about looking for the Tasmanian Tiger in Australia, that this all just another example of lying. Well, I sent him a link to my photo album proving my statements were in fact true, but I won't expect an apology. When people are proven wrong, they rarely man up.

I haven't backed down one inch from my claims, because I've always told the truth. My resolve in this means either one or two things, that I'm running the longest April fool joke in history or that I'm actually telling the truth. Those who have seen me shoot know it's real. As I said, Arvid knows and is extremely complimentary. Do you serious think an Olympic archer would be fooled? Arvid is a very nice man, but he doesn't suffer fools.

As far as any helpful tips, yes...A method I recommend besides my method is the Apache Method. I don't think it has gotten the due it deserves. The Apache Method as many know here is a high under the eye anchor, 3 under, and you look right down the shaft and use the arrow tip as a sight. It works great for the close ranges that we aspire to as bowhunters. Indeed, various versions of this method are being used by the top IBO World archers. Please read that twice, for those who are looking for an accuracy method.

I strongly suggest anyone interested in improving give grip a great deal of attention. It's is vital to be torque free not only at the moment of release, but also until the arrow clears the rest. So, it's helpful to think of being steady not just at the loose, but until the arrow hits the target. A bowsling can be a great aid in this, I feel as though the bow jumps forward a few inches and I (automatically) catch it a moment after the shot. I like a low torque free grip with my fingers barely touching the grip and certainly not applying any torque to the riser.

Bowlim, I agree with you 100%. I do strengthening exercises to develop bow arm stability. No doubt much of Rick Welch's success comes from his tremendous upper body strength. You have to be dead steady; one should aspire to be compound steady even though you are holding 100% and not 5%. Most of the time, this requires dropping down in bow wt., in addition to strengthening exercises.

If you tape a match to your bow for a sight and extend the bow toward a target w/o pulling the string back, notice how steady you can hold it on say a tennis ball at 25 yds. You should be keeping the sight superimposed over that tennis ball vs. looping in and out up and down or sidewise from it. That's how steady you have to be when you are actually at full draw if you want to realize your full potential...in my opinion.

From: David Alford
Date: 23-Feb-12

David Alford's embedded Photo



...just to save someone the time and trouble, Arvid will not reveal the STAR Method. But he's impressed enough that he is experimenting with new very short bow designs (under 50") because the some release method works so well with short bows. Of course it also works well with longer bows. The longer the better for ultimate accuracy. This is really one of Howard Hill's keys to accuracy. Most people know this, but many of us still like our short bows. It can be challenging...

From: David Alford
Date: 23-Feb-12




oops, I'm not supposed to use the name...sorry!

From: Hal9000
Date: 23-Feb-12




How can some old fart shoot thousands of free throws without missing, yet guys aren't shooting perfect 300's barebow all the time?

From: Ron LaClair Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 23-Feb-12




David, I was at the International Indoor Open at Cobo Hall back in the late 1960's when the first perfect 300 was shot. It was shot with Phil Grables Golden Eagle bow.

From: David Alford
Date: 24-Feb-12




Thanks, Ron; I'll double check. Hal9000 actually it doesn't look that hard, I dunno what the problem is. I guess the last ten arrows! haha

From: cch
Date: 24-Feb-12




I always thought it was Jim Ploem that shot the first 300 in competition.

David, Is there info on the internet that I can find how to make some of your releases? I am having finger issues and think they could work.

From: Whittler
Date: 24-Feb-12




David Alford, you have NO intention of showing/describing your method of shooting. Any person with any integrity would have told us his method of shooting IF it's so great when you first started this Star method.

You get a kick out of pulling everyone's chain. I can not believe someone would put themselves through this time and time again. Hope your having fun.

From: Stan
Date: 24-Feb-12




David....All do respect sir.. You bring all this on yourself.. I do appreciate your input on good shooting, but please do us all a favor, and drop the mention of "Your method" until you can deliver..

From: Ron LaClair Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 24-Feb-12




OK, I've got it straight now. The first THREE perfect 300 scores shot in major competition were all shot in 1967 by three different people and all of them were shooting "Golden Eagle" bows.

Phil Grable and Erni Root of Root archery were partners in manufacturing the Golden Eagle bows, Phil made the risers out of aircraft aluminum and Erni made the limbs. After they built up the reputation of the GE bow they sold the company to Shakespear.

Phil and I go way back to the 50's and he lives in my area so I called him to verify the perfect scores and who shot them. Bob Brewer shot the first one at the US Open at Las Vegas, and Lester (Jugger) Gervais also shot a 300 at the same shoot in 1967. Later that same year at the International Indoor Open at Cobo Hall in Detroit Michigan, Bob Brewer shot a perfect 300.

Phil told me that he has all of the targets and they are signed by the men who shot them

A bit of history from 45 years ago..

From: Ron LaClair Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 24-Feb-12




I made a mistake..BOB BITNER shot the first 300 and Bob Brewer shot the 3rd one.

All three men were from Michigan at the time.

From: Stan
Date: 24-Feb-12




Thanks Ron...

From: David Alford
Date: 24-Feb-12




Arvid told me it was the first Professional Archery Association tournament 300 and he shot another perfect 300 the following day. He also informed me the targets and scoring are different than the NAA and Vegas system. So there are different truths on this. His score on the Collegiate 900 was 874. He holds the Guiness World Record for the most "Robin Hoods" shot in 24 hrs - 374. He was also the the USA Olympic team. I've seen a DVD he has of doing various trick shots from horesback, etc. Byron Ferguson said even he couldn't do many of these shots. Then there are his accomplishments in bow design, but that is another subject. I think we are deviating from the subject thread, however.

From: roger
Date: 24-Feb-12




David, your history here speak volumes. For years you claim to have the "cure" for archery, and are always on the virg of divulging it, then something 'happens' and so you can't do it right away, but promise to "very shortly"......And, then you never do. Then, you merely repeat the process, perpetually. That is your history - your entire body of 'work' and not one thing more.

Your looking for the Tasmanian Devil, constructing a method to fix everyone's golf swing, curing archery maladies, and preparing to write a book on desert muley hunting.....is that it? I mean, no cancer vaccination looming?

From: Hal9000
Date: 24-Feb-12




Guess if you want to be a really good shot, move to Michigan!!

From: David Alford
Date: 24-Feb-12




roger, if you're so sure you should show up at my door step and challenge me to a little contest. That actually happened when a bunch of golf experts got together and challenged me in Tucson so convinced were they that I was a liar. Their apology was published shortly thereafter.

I've corrected you several times re: a book on desert mule deer hunting. I never made the claim I was writing a book. And it's the Tasmanian Tiger, not the Tasmanian Devil. Your accuracy really suffers here.

I pursue hard endeavors...so sue me.

From: David Alford
Date: 24-Feb-12




This thread will shortly be closed if you guys keep attacking me. Feel free to PM if you are so concerned. I suggest you post something pertaining to archery accuracy...if you can.

From: Ron LaClair Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 24-Feb-12




"Guess if you want to be a really good shot, move to Michigan!!"

At one time there were more top shooters in Michigan than any other state. Jim Pickering who was original from Utah, was a National Champion and moved to Michigan to work for Bear Archery. Dickie Roberts from Mi was a National Champ, Jugger Gervais another Champion and top shot lived in Mi for awhile. Bob Bitner, George Clause, Dave Keegy Senior and Jr., Bill Pierce, and many others.

I almost won the state NFAA Championship in 1966. I was in the lead after the Field round and Hunters round, going into the Animal round I was on #1 target with Dickie Roberts who was at the time the National Champion. Just before the starting gun of the final round Dickie reminded me that he had shot a perfect score on the Animal round when he won the Nationals. I told him that if he wanted to beat me he'd have to do it again...so he did and beat me by 2 points...8>(

From: roger
Date: 24-Feb-12




"....post something pertaining to archery."

Have you actually ever done that?

From: Aggieland
Date: 24-Feb-12




Mr. LaClair I love the last post. love hearing old tales of things that stick with you for years.

From: David Alford
Date: 24-Feb-12




roger, do a search under my name and have you even read the posts in this thread? You're full of hate, man.

From: David Alford
Date: 24-Feb-12




Ron, that's some good shooting. And I know you're an excellent shot with short bows and that says a lot. Or does the Shrew deserve the credit? lol

From: roger
Date: 24-Feb-12




I beg to differ, David. I can't logically hate anything that you won't share.

From: David Alford
Date: 24-Feb-12




Well, that's better than being hateful, because life is too short and someday all haters will have to reconcile the negative energy they put out in their lives. It's not easy to create, but at least one can be positive toward others. Good luck in your journey going forward. That's all I have to say about this, I have a journey of my own coming very shortly...

From: DougVarrieur
Date: 24-Feb-12




WOW....what a bummer to see all this negativity. David, I don't know you, Roger I don't know you BUT I suggest you guys get together, have a beer and shoot something. It's not hard or expensive and in the end Both of you will learn something from each other.

No disrespect to either of you, just a fact.

From: kentowl
Date: 02-Mar-12




Second DougVarrieur's motion, I'll have one too!

To end on a positive note (hopefully); with respect to Mr. Alford (and kudos for his persistent interest in archery, even if that's all we get to see), there are few new things in stix'n'strings. Based on photos, Ishi used a no-finger-pinch, non-mechanical release on very short bows; just clamped the nock between thumb and forefinger (I believe this was a traditional AmerIndian technique) And he avoided shoulder alignment issues with a very short draw, while shotgun sighting right down the arrow.

That all adds up to a pretty accurate, easy, and teachable method - but based on its rarity in current practice, it seems to have proven inferior to the various other methods we use today. Now it's Miller Time.

From: cjgregory
Date: 02-Mar-12




The original quesiton- "How long does it take to get good?"

It could be as little as a year or as long as never. I know a few guys who have been shooting all thier life and are not what I would consider even close to good but they are having fun and they love what they do.

If you want to get good, and of course that is relative, you will need to hook up with someone that is good. In all honesty thats how you do it. You will shoot up to the level of your mentor eventually and then it will be time to go to the next level. That would take an even better shooter.

From: AZBEAR
Date: 02-Mar-12

AZBEAR's embedded Photo



Im been shooting off & on for 35 plus years and im 48 now. I have days i cant miss and others that you would think ive never held or shot a bow before. So im thinking 51 yrs exp.(LoL) ....AzBear

From: John H
Date: 02-Mar-12




I think getting "good" means something different to everyone. To me its a life-long process and I will never be good enough. If I put five arrows in a 3 inch circle today, I will want a 2 inch circle tomorrow. Trying is the fun of it. I enjoy every shot.

From: string wax
Date: 03-Mar-12




good is like beauty its in the eye of the beholder so im dang good lol if u are competive u will never be good enuff theres always someone better i try to please myself so good luck with good it only took me 30+ years to figger that out and it might be wrong but im running out of time so im standing right here

From: Fisher
Date: 03-Mar-12




To get good for me:

All my life so far, plus tomorrow.

More than 40 years to learn what I don't know.

It is a journey along a winding path with detours, dead ends, crossroads, and sometimes a fast lane.

Sharing the passion with enough good friends to make it more than 40 years in archery.

Helping enough beginners and less skilled along the way to teach myself the importance of the fundamentals of good form, bow and arrow tuning, and patience.

Enough fun along the way to stay at it for more than 40 years and still eagerly anticipate the next time I go outside to shoot, or stay inside to tinker with bows, arrows, and associated gear.

Best wishes, Fisher

From: Don
Date: 03-Mar-12




I've not read all of the posts, but I just have to say that without good form you can practice forever and your never going to be consistent, or in my opinion good. I believe if you have proper form & practice with proper form your going to be a pretty good shot within 6 months - 2 years. Just remember there may be a lot of variables come up in the deer woods that are not easily practiced. Even a, "good" may have a poor shot, just stick with it.

From: Don
Date: 03-Mar-12




I've not read all of the posts, but I just have to say that without good form you can practice forever and your never going to be consistent, or in my opinion good. I believe if you have proper form & practice with proper form your going to be a pretty good shot within 6 months - 2 years. Just remember there may be a lot of variables come up in the deer woods that are not easily practiced. Even a, "good" may have a poor shot, just stick with it.

From: bradsmith2010
Date: 03-Mar-12




i wonder about Ishi too,, maybe easier to shoot heavier bow with different release,,,, in my next life i will try to shoot like him,,, and see if it has advantages,,, lol

From: Airos
Date: 03-Mar-12




Confidence, comfort, consistency and how much you dedicate yourself to a given shooting style will determine how long it takes you to get good. Also if you've bypassed the basics then your progress will be slowed. Knowing and practicing the basics to any shooting style, will help greatly. Knowing the advanced exercises will bring you even faster results...

If you shoot the "instinctive" snap shooting style, then it may only take a week or a month to get better then you thought.. Because you're not thinking about anything but the target..

If you are thinking about all the processes that are involved in the shot, (form, shot process, release etc..) then your progress isn't so quick. Then the time it takes to get good, can go from many months to many years.

From: Shifty
Date: 03-Mar-12




I been at it for over 50 yrs and still ain't as good as I want to be!

From: Cyrille
Date: 03-Mar-12




That's a subjective question---- How "good' do you want to be? Good @ 60' good @ 90' good @110' 120' You pick the distance then decide... My answer is "As long as it takes.

From: specklebellies
Date: 03-Mar-12




Not everyone who shoots instictive is or should be a "snap" shooter. Speck

From: Wildhog
Date: 03-Mar-12




I can shoot marble size groups at 20 yards.....but man it is a HUGE marble.

From: bluej
Date: 03-Mar-12




Azbear your answer is right on with mine!

From: Viking
Date: 04-Mar-12




Aggiland. Living in a land where bowhunting is ilegal, there is no one to ask. Using books and internett i train my self to hunt the the bigest game in the world in to years. If you realy wants to learn you learn quickly. If you take advices from every one you will go lost. Use one bow and one arrow wight. Go for it.

From: skullz
Date: 05-Mar-12




It took me a year to really figure it out! And then another year of fine tuning what I had learned the first year to make myself into the shot I am today which is say im at a tourney and there are 50 shooters I feel confident in getting into the top 5.......however a lot of that was finding a bow one day at a shop that felt like an extension of my arm. shoots where I look and if I make a poor shot I can figure the reason out why that just happened.....In the end Id say with a lot of practice and a good teacher somewhere along the way you should be hunt ready withina a year or two... jmo





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