Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Using an ultra small Dia. shaft ?

Messages posted to thread:
Aggieland 15-Jan-12
Andy Man 15-Jan-12
fdp 15-Jan-12
Aggieland 15-Jan-12
aromakr 15-Jan-12
Scotsman 15-Jan-12
Aggieland 15-Jan-12
PineLander 15-Jan-12
Montana 15-Jan-12
Aggieland 15-Jan-12
Montana 16-Jan-12
From: Aggieland
Date: 15-Jan-12




Howdy folks, I'm somewhat new to trad so I wanted to ask this question. I have been into the E.F.O.C. theory from Dr. Ashby for a while now. I know some don't believe or follow it & thats fine. Anyway, I have a ThunderChild on order from Big Jim and Today I bought some of the ultra small Dia Victory VAP shafts in .350 spine. I plan to add probably 270-300 grain on the head of the shaft. So the question I have is are their any changes I need to make on the bows shelf when using these small dia shafts? such as thinker or thinner rest material? Perhaps it wont make much difference at all but I wanted to ask so I had at least an idea of what I wanted to acheve when the bow arrives. Thanks for your imput, Casey

From: Andy Man
Date: 15-Jan-12




Just might have to lower your nock point a small tad-bare shafting will tell

From: fdp
Date: 15-Jan-12




You really can't predict that in the essence of getting the arrow to the "fine tune" stage. The individual archer adds some variables. Ultimately, you are gonna' have to shoot them and get them right for your release, hold, and so on. My advice would be for you to start with what you have now and then tweak the combination to suit you.

From: Aggieland
Date: 15-Jan-12




Sounds like Sound advice, I will have to check back with you guys when the bow arrives. Because I honestly dont know how to set one up. I read where guys like Rick Welch can get your arrow hitting where you looking etc. And I have read about how you bare shaft tune. But on the bow I have now doing the bare shaft tuning I never did get the arrow hitting like It needed to. But at that time I was not near the shot I am now and Im sure my form was total crap etc so there was probably no way it was ever going to fly true. Now I am much more sound and shoot much better so it may not be as difficult. thanks again!

From: aromakr Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 15-Jan-12




Aggieland: I'm not sure how deep the shelf on the bow is cut, but you want to make sure that the center of the shaft does not go past the center of the limb. So, if that bow is cut to past center you might have to build out the strike plate some. Bob

From: Scotsman
Date: 15-Jan-12




I would start by asking Big Jim. He built the bow, knows what the shelf specifications are, and is a good source for information about carbon shafts. When in doubt, ask the guy who both builds the bows and sells arrows and accessories.

From: Aggieland
Date: 15-Jan-12




Yes, I plan to run it by Jim sometime. I know he is busy building bows so I hate to bug him. I think I have already asked enough of the guy lol. I still have a few months before the bow will be shipped so I can read and learn more before then.

From: PineLander
Date: 15-Jan-12




Soak up all the information you can about basic bow/arrow tuning. Then when you start tuning your new setup, you will know what adjustments to make (and why) during your tuning process.

From: Montana
Date: 15-Jan-12




Aggie,

Welcome to the wonderful world of stickbows! : - )

With a little time, you will likely become as addicted to trad bows as the rest of us that hang out around here.

I try to read just about every book on trad bows that I can find, and honestly, I have probably learned more about bows by getting advice from the LW guys than from any other source. Lots of helpful people here.

1. I'm glad that you are trying the Victory VAP shafts. I have been shooting the VAP .500 shafts for about 9 months now, and I LOVE THEM.

I have also shot Easton Axis shafts for years (they have a very small diameter too). But with my light Toelke longbow that pulls about 48 pounds for me, the VAP 500 shafts are dynamite. (I shot an outdoor NFAA animal target round in Montana last summer with them, and had a 410+ score.) Outstanding arrow.

2. You didn't mention the draw weight on your new bow. Unless it is really very stout (above 60 pounds, I guess), I don't think you need the 340 shafts.

IMHO, I think the biggest mistake with arrows that trad guys make is buying carbons that are TOO STIFF.

Like a lot of guys, if you shoot about 55 pounds, and want to shoot a carbon arrow cut to 29 or 30 inches roughly, with 250 grains up front, a 400 spine shaft should be want you need. That's about what I shoot with my Toelke 56# Whip, and those Axis 400s have killed a number of critters for me. (Actually, I cut mine to 30.5 inches, and they shoot great out of that bow with 245 grains total up front).

Dude, unless you shoot those shafts full length with a very stout bow, I think the 340s may be too stiff. You will have to do some bare shafting, to see.

3. The coolest arrow selection system around these days in the system developed by STU MILLER, who hangs around here alot. Check out some of his past posts. His arrow advice for me has been spot on. Heck of a nice guy, too. Send him a PM message. He'll tell you what you need, for your SPECIFIC BOW.

4. Lots of guys don't think enough about the "center cut" factor on a bow when they buy arrows. For example, my VAP 500s, when I cut them to 30 inches with 160 grains up front, shoot fabulously out of my Toelke light longbow. Stu helped me pick that shaft out, and he is familiar with the specs on most bows these days.

But, I tried to shoot the same arrows out of a Bear recurve that was about 45 pounds, and the same arrows shot HORRIBLE. Completely different specs there on the "center shot" factor.

5. Of course, you can always start bareshafting your self with them, and slowly cut them back from full length at 1/4 inch increments until you get it right. Trust me, don't cut them more than that at a time ... carbons are very touchy when it comes to finding the perfect length. Stu even recommends .10 inch cuts at times.

Hope this helps a bit for you. I Love those VAP shafts. I can't wait till they get the steel outserts on the market this winter. The std black outserts are soft, AND WILL BEND at times. So, I either shoot Easton target "nibb" glue in points myself, or get the Stainless steel outserts from HARVEST TIME ARCHERY. They will also do, too.

Frankly, my next set of arrows will likely come from Harvest Time . . . they offer a similar shaft that is a bit heavier and thicker wall . . . even a better deal, I think! Once of their exec's used to work for Victory.

Also, I have some heavy weed eater line in some of mine for extra weight that is .155 diameter and fits inside them like a glove!

Good shooting!

Jeff in MT

From: Aggieland
Date: 15-Jan-12




Wow Jeff, I guess I should have talked to you before I bought shafts today. I ended up buying two Dozen of the old Nano Force shafts off ebay for around $68.00 a dozen.The Nano Force shafts are the same shafts as the new ones just different labels on them. These are the 340 spine but I do plan to shoot a somewhat aggressive bow (Big Jim ThunderChild) 54" bow- 65# @ 26" DL. Guess I can leave the arrow long if needed. I also plan to use the 110 grain Stainless Steel outsert and then have a 175 grain head on front. So somewhere around 285 grains up front.

What length feathers have you been using on these shafts? I figured 3 or 4" would be good and I should have a really high FOC.. Anyway hope to hear more info from you and others, thanks for the post. Casey

From: Montana
Date: 16-Jan-12




Casey,

Good to hear from you.

I used to struggle and struggle with arrow choices using the Easton arrow charts (and others). While I like Easton products, their arrow charts really don't quite "cut it" for trad shooters.

If you already have purchased the Axis 340 shafts, then you will just have to give them a try. If nothing else, shoot them for a while, and then if you try 400 shafts later on, you should easily be able to decide which is better.

IMHO, the process of selecting a PROPER ARROW is the biggest single "trick" to getting a trad bow to shoot well. Pick the right arrows, and the rest is all down hill from there (easy).

I'm not familiar with Jim's bows, and you didn't mention if it was a recurve or long bow. That may make a difference.

But . . . my bow which would most closely match your bow is probably my Toelke Chinook recurve. Which is 57 pounds, at about 29 inches. That bow really smokes out an arrow. I bet that the speed of that bow will be fairly close (but not quite) to the speed of yours, given that I have a longer draw.

My Chinook bow shoots Easton Axis 400 shafts GREAT. In fact, to get them to shoot well, I still have to cut them long (30.5 inches), and I also use the brass inserts in them (75 grains). Matched up with a 145 grain head, they shoot "right where I'm looking."

To shoot the Axis 340 shafts out of your bow, I strongly expect that you will have to shoot them FULL LENGTH or close to that, with the 100 grain brass inserts, and a HEAVY BROADHEAD. If you can get them to spine right with that combo, then you are in business. Keep in mind that proper SHAFT LENGTH with carbons is crucial to finding the right one.

Try them out with bareshafting, and then you will know if they will work. If you have to use more than a 200 grain broadhead (with the 100 gr inserts), I would say the shafts are just too stiff.

Just for kicks some day, ask a friend to loan you a fletched 400 carbon arrow to try. Myself, I am betting that when it is all said and done, a 400 spine arrow will make you a better archer.

It seems to me that the best rule of thumb when bareshafting is this: IF YOUR ARROW HITS TO RIGHT OF YOUR TARGET AT 15 OR 20 YARDS, THE SHAFT IS TOO SOFT (if so, cut it down, or reduce the weight up front). And, unless you have truly shot an arrow that will actually do that (shoot too far right), you may be settling for overly stiff shafts. In other words, experiment a bunch until you have really experienced OVERLY STIFF and OVERLY SOFT shafts. Once that has happened, the answer (the perfect spine)should be staring right at you.

For years, I used to shoot overly stiff arrows, which is a mistake.

On the other hand, shoot a proper arrow (maybe Stu Miller can help too) and the results will immediately put a smile on your face! The first time I shot the VAP 500 shafts which I picked out with Stu Miller's help, I COULDN'T WIPE THE SMILE OFF MY FACE. Perfection!

Hope this helps. If you need to, many archery shops will sell SINGLE ARROWS, which will probably be flectched with plastic vanes. For a few bucks, buy a single Axis 400 shaft, strip the vanes off, and do some testing with that some day. Then you haven't wasted a bunch of money (and you really need to try them as bare shafts first).

Most guys will say to shoot a bareshaft which shows just a tad bit of softness (shooting to the right), and then flectch that baby with 5 inch feathers (4 inches will work too), and then you have probably found the IDEAL ARROW.

Hope this works. Have a good week.

I say to use 4 or 5 inch feathers. Don't worry about the extra FOC effect from 3 inch feathers . . . that is a very minimal effect that you would receive from that. All of the other factors here are more important (point weight, arrow length, etc).

Jeff in MT

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PS -- Send a note here to PLENTY COUPS too (Kent is a real arrow expert, and he can help ya also).





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