Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Kramer Hill ?

Messages posted to thread:
Pukwudgie 28-Jan-11
strshotx 28-Jan-11
dire wolf 28-Jan-11
Pukwudgie 28-Jan-11
wulf 28-Jan-11
Pukwudgie 28-Jan-11
John-Doc 28-Jan-11
aromakr 28-Jan-11
Pukwudgie 28-Jan-11
aromakr 28-Jan-11
dire wolf 28-Jan-11
Pukwudgie 28-Jan-11
dtarbell 28-Jan-11
Longbowsmith 28-Jan-11
From: Pukwudgie
Date: 28-Jan-11




Does anyone know when the Kramers made Hill bows?

From: strshotx
Date: 28-Jan-11




I'm not sure exactly but go to www.HowardHillShooters.com there is alot of great info on there.

From: dire wolf
Date: 28-Jan-11




As I recall, Ted Kramer was the next Howard Hill bowyer after John Schultz retired-left the Ekins. Would have been perhaps the late 70's early 80's. Ted was( is?) a good bowyer and faithfully did the HH bows to the specs he was given. I think he went on to do his own bows like the Kramer 'AUTUMN' series after his tenure with H.H. Archery..Jim

From: Pukwudgie
Date: 28-Jan-11




Jim,

Thank you for the information.

Tony

From: wulf Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 28-Jan-11




According to their website they still make bows. It used to be a father and son team consisting of Ted Kramer and his son Lee. I don't know when Ted retired from the bowmaking business but I believe it's been over ten years since he has. Well I wanted one of their Hill-style Autumn Longbows and found Kramer Archery's website. Upon calling them I found out that Lee had taken over the business and moved it several miles from where it was originally but was still in Montana.

So in August of 2001, after a bit of correspondence with Lee Kramer, I placed my order along with a 250 dollar deposit. Things went downhill from there. I let several weeks pass before calling Lee back, to see what the status of my bow was. The answers I would get concerning my bow was either, "Your bow is next" or "I tried calling you but no answer". At first I believed him even though I've always had an answering machine but no messages from Kramer Archery. Who knows, maybe he hung up as soon it rang 3 times, anticipating an answering machine?

Many months went by and I'd call and I'd get either Lee or his wife and by then Lee was having "health issues". I can understand that but by this time I'd been told several times "You are next" and it never happened.

The months turned to years and even though the Kramers would answer the phone, Lee's response to my bow inquiry was always, "I tried calling you but no answer". C'mon now, you can't tell me that after a few YEARS you haven't put a message on my answering machine?

One of the last times I called, Lee's wife answered and said Lee had retired and was no longer making bows so I asked her "Why does your website(which is still up) show recently udated price increases then?" to which she directed my call to Lee. Lee proceeded to tell me he would send me my money back. Well that never happened even after several more follow-up calls from me.

Folks, I was patient, friendly on the phone, didn't have any unusual demands, each time I called Kramer Archery. I even made sure I didn't "hound" Lee to get my bow finished as I know how hard it is to get things done with someone on your neck. But as far as I'm concerned Lee Kramer is a crook. He took my money and never had any intention of making me a bow. Had Lee told me he or someone in his family was having health problems and they used my deposit for that I probably would just "swallow my loss" and gone on. But it was all just fabrications until there was nothing left to do but send my money back and that NEVER happened.

I want to be clear here. I don't know the Kramers personally nor have I ever met them so I have no idea why they would take my money and never build a bow or at least send my deposit back. I hope someone else can read this and save themselves some frustration and their money. Beware of Kramer Archery.

wulf

From: Pukwudgie
Date: 28-Jan-11




I was just wondering because I juts got back a Hill Big 5 that I traded off years ago. I know by the serial number it was made by Ted Kramer.

From: John-Doc
Date: 28-Jan-11




I have a couple of Kramer bows that I treasure. About 20 years ago they had a small, reliable, friendly operation and the bows were terrific. Sorry to read how things changed, Just dosen't seem possible. Makes me want to know more. 3 years ago I heard Ted and Cindy had developed major health problems.

From: aromakr Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 28-Jan-11




Ted & Lee made bows for Howard Hill Archery from 1977 until 1982. Serial # will be B for big 5 then TK or LK for Ted or Lee. So a big 5 would look like this BTK then the numbers usually the length of the bow next 70" big 5 would be BTK70#### Bob

From: Pukwudgie
Date: 28-Jan-11




Mine is BK there is no T or L, but it is a Kramer confirmed by Craig.

From: aromakr Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 28-Jan-11




Pukwudgie: Yours might be early, before Lee joined his dad in the business. Bob

From: dire wolf
Date: 28-Jan-11




Wulf,I'm sorry you are having a poor experience after paying for a longbow.

If the sequence of events are as you describe, you might try giving Craig Ekin at Howard Hill Archery a call and see IF he might be able to assist you in your endeavors with Lee Kramer. I knew Craig's Dad, Ted and Betty and of course most of their early bowyers and they do care about the sport, longbows in particular. I have never met Lee Kramer , but I liked his Dad...tho it's been years. People have problems and sometimes they just get overwhelmed. If you have not already done so, write a clear, concise and polite letter detailing your original businessdeal and see if that gets some action. Let them know that IF they flat out are not making bows or filling orders and cannot refund your money due to personal problems..that is better to know than dodging the matter.

Ask for honest disclosure and make your best decision after getting that. Hope things work out, Jim IF

From: Pukwudgie
Date: 28-Jan-11




Thanks for all the help!

From: dtarbell
Date: 28-Jan-11




I got a Big Five made by Ted in 1982,it was reflexed from the riser,you could put 3 fingers between the grip and the wall you can imagine how it felt when you cut it loose.

From: Longbowsmith
Date: 28-Jan-11




"Mine is BK there is no T or L, but it is a Kramer confirmed by Craig." Yep, I had one for many years as well. I believe the "K" without the B or T indicates the timeframe where father and son were first making them togeather for HH archery. Since they were both working on the bows togeather they did not differentiate.

Chris





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