I am shooting a RH Kodiak Magnum, 40#@28", I am using CE 30-50's, 29" with 125 grain points. I am drawing 28". I am shooting it LEFT HANDED with a thumbring. Arrow flight is good but I am showing wear in the paint/crest area. The strike plate is as thin as you can get and still have one. Bill

Without seeing your form it is hard to say whether it is form or spine or both. It is sometimes hard to get the right follow through with a "Western" style recurve because of the pistol grip and the shelf. Without the proper follow through the bow may not be "moving" out of the way of the arrow and might be hitting the strike plate harder. It could also be you are putting pressure on the arrow with your index finger causing it to bend and then bang off the strike plate.

That's normal as long as the arrow fly stright and dons't kick the plate too hard to make loud sond. it will be OK.

I'm holding a RH bow in my right hand. The palm swell is on the left side. I hold with my thumb and index finger, the other three are loose. If I am not careful, I do flex the arrow. If I straighten out my wrist the flex goes away and I then usually hit where I look. I shoot the same arrows from a 29# bow, I draw it 29". My accuracy is steadily improving, at 15 yards I hit the base of a soda bottle at least once out of every six arrows, best is the group is centered around the bottle, with a little luck, I will be able to hunt before the season goes out. Bill

Bill that's great stuff. The hard part is having that "sweet spot" as far as pressure on the arrow goes. Accuracy sounds like it is coming along pretty well. It is alot of fun when you are hitting what you look at with the thumb draw.

Hallo JBL How to make the proper follow through is it to turn the bow hand let the stering away from arm like Japanees "Yumi" shooting?

Luckyshot that is a yes/no question what I find is that when you are first learning the thumb draw and form you do end up forcing the "roll" (for lack of a better term). What many find is as your muscle memory takes over and your bow hand becomes more relaxed and back tension becomes better upon release the bow falls away from your hand on its own. Think of a rubber band under tension and then released.

The style I shoot is basically an elbow back with the draw hand and a push forward with the bow hand that becomes automatic when you have the proper back tension. The bow hand is very relaxed similar to a FITA or other target archers.

Now there are other schools of shooting where the bow does not fall away as I have described. The Chinese texts that have been translated by Stephen Shelby in "Chinese Archery" say that upon loose the bow hand does nothing. This can be interpreted in two ways the first is that it is similar to a Howard Hill style shot that the bow arm remains stationary or that the grip on the bow is so relaxed the bow falls away as I described earlier. As there are drawings that accompany the text with the bow forward upon release I assume they are talking about the later type of form. If you are hunting from a blind or thick woods you may end up modifying your follow through to suit your needs.

If you get on the video sites and see people shooting with the thumb draw you will see many different variations of the follow through as well as a different shot sequence in general. Some much more dynamic then finger shooters and others almost the same as finger shooters with the exception of drawing with the thumb.

The roll of the bow was used by horse archers through antiquity to stabilize their shoots similar to gimbals on a ship's compass. The axis remains "even" with the ground.

According to my knowledge and experience the bow hand's follow thru is very important for a good clearence and perfect arrow flight. Japanese archers twist the bow in the hand in two ways, one by twisting their wrist outwards, and one turning the bow completely in the hand. It's similar in Korean archery where the archer makes a sharp outwards twist during release. In Turkish treatises no detail about the bow hand during release was given but grasping the bow (qabza) is described precisely. There are a few different techniques in holding the bowgrip, some authors say 3, and some say 4. I was able to analyze and replicate two of them. One of them is for flight shooting and requires using a siper (over-draw device) while the other is for target and martial disciplines. In the latter one the grip is held so that it makes a sharp turn during the release. Contrary to the Japanese style at which you turn the bow consciously it happens automatically with a Turkish bow thanks to its grip form and holding method. Compared to Korean cousine the Turkish bow is more stable with its higher brace, so it may be one of the reasons of better (or easier achieved proper) arrow flight. Yesterday I was able to find out (finally) the proper bowhand position/move with my Korean bow and I resolved the problem with erratic arrow flight. I believe that the transformation of its grip to that of a Turkish bow helped (so that I got on well with it with my established muscle memory).

With a western style pistol grip I doubt if the technique works properly. I'd advise you to get a bow with no window and to practice the thumb release with that bow. But as mentioned above it may be up to your form or release, i.e. how you lock, how you release, whether your thumb ring is well-made or not.

Thank you for your replies. I probably will not be getting a new bow any time soon, I have to use what I have. I probably do not have a very good ring, I have made 4, one leather and three of PVC pipe. Each one worked well enough at the time, as I get better, and realize what I want to do, I make a new ring. Each one is better that the last one, when ever I have problems, all of you have been gracious enough to help me with your information and advice. Bill

Thanks again JBL and ela gozlu avci.

If shooting a western style bow, due the faster release with thumb, maybe it will work better an arrow little bit stiffer, maybe 5 lbs spine more than an arrow which works well with three fingers. However, if is the right spine, the bow should be grip with same technique like three fingers. The arrow can touch the bow because you put pressure with index finger on the arrow end.

The problem with grip torsion and rotation of the bow is important if arrow is not spined for the bow and this is the art, to shoot any arrows no matter the spine (well, the arrow should be just stiff enough).

Murat is right, turkish bow is more tolerant than korean, which can be very frustrating some time.

A good shot is marked with s specific sound, a vibration of string and no touch between arrow and bow after release. Also arrows should get a straight flight with no wobbling or fishtailing. Shooting with bare shafts is a very good way to train. A good archer should be able to shoot bareshafts straight.

Scorillo great point about practicing bare shaft. The guy who taught me would only let me shoot with bare shafts for the first few months of learning the thumb draw. Another great point is listen to your bow-between sight and sound you will be able to know if you are shooting properly.

Inonica and Jamie, you both underlined a very important point. The way Ottoman masters taught the trainees -and that's the method we replicate- is shooting from a very close distance, no matter the shaft is fletched or bare. In such a close distance the arrow is still in paradox, so if your release (both hands) is good then your arrows sticked almost or perfectly perpendicular to the target butt. Beginners' arrows hit the target almost always with a very wide angle and it's getting better and better with our instructions to correct their technique. In my good days I can shoot unfletched shafts at 18 m with good accuracy but sometimes it's hard to have a perpendicular hit in close distance, especially if the arrows are too weak. I can say that a 50 pound bow can easily match 2018, 2117 and even 2219 aluminum shafts, but as mentioned above, being able to shoot "underspined shafts" is the real art. Researchs of Adam Karpowicz showed that mean draw weight of Turkish war bows was 115# and obviously it's hard to harvest natural raw material which you can make that stiff arrows from (especially because the Ottoman arrows were as thin as 9 mm in diameter). I'm planning a research about static spine of Ottoman arrows (in the Military Museum) which will enlighten the area, or will give birth to new questions.

Any tips for shooting arrow under spine?

Murat, some time ago I had romanian spruce shafts, about 9,2-9,4 mm in diameter with very high spine up to 140 lbs!

Luckyshot, I cannot help you. I am not concerning about the spine, I just bend the shaft and I know if is stiff enough or not. I shoot only bamboo and few times I shot my friends arrows, made for less power bows and I had no problem but I repeat, this is only with bamboo.

With wood can be dangereous to shot weak arrows.

I dont want to say it is impossible, actually shooting weak thin arrows with very powerful bows is the art of the old flight-shooting masters, it can be done, but not by me. Murat knows more about this subject.

Ionica,

Thanks for the tip! Old treatises mention pine species as arrow material but it's certain that the teminology changed within last centuries ("pine" should be something else like we found it was true for other terms of raw materials). In previous years I found out, for example, that "kayin" was used for "birch", not for "beech" as it means now. In today's Turkish "kayin" is the correspondent of "beech" and for birch we use "hoosh". So, spruce is in "picea" family and has obviously different physical features than "pinus" trees. It's all about the difficulities of reading and understanding old texts.

Weak arrows shot from flight bows is another issue. Flight shooters used an ovedraw device called a "siper" or "bilek siperi" that they wore on their wrist. This term was translated as "arrow guide" by Dr. Klopsteg. After practicing with some earlier replicas I had got very recently a more precise one, thanks to the measurements I made on the originals in Military Museum. A friend of mine, a fine archer and bowyer, Mehmet Golhan made a 1:1 replica. Having access to a speed-cam, I hope to be able to see how a siper would effect the inner ballistic. As far as I can "feel" it has some effect on arrow flight. This replica will help understand and master the grip-holding technique, which is different than you use for target shooting. I attach a picture with one of my earlier replicas.

And this photo shows me with an original siper and flight bow (made in mid 1800's)...

Last but not least, Turkish flight arrows have sooo tiny and light heads made of ivory, bone or horn (they're called "soya"). Therefore the dynamic spine is much higher than the static spine. Shooting an arrow with a "negative FOC" and very small feathers and achieving good arrow flight is another quuestion. Here you can see some examples of "pishrev arrows".

Wow that's something new to me.

Murat, thanks for the pictures. It must be an honor to handle a real flight bow and original siper!

Jose, yes indeed! I put that picture to the "Unforgettable moments of 2010" post. There have been some Museum researchs of mine in the past but I still have the same excitement when I hold an old archery item in my hands. Unexplainable feelings!

Murat great stuff!!!! I am jealous of all who are able to handle the "original" flight bows and view the war bows throughout their countries. These bows played such a major part in the shaping of the East and Central Europe and of course Asia. It was ingrained into the Turkish and other Eastern cultures so deeply that there are many religious icons of the "Warrior Saints" with composite bows thgroughout the Eastern Church. I have a St Michael the Archangel icon given to me by my Grandfather that has St Michael holding a composite bow with the hourglass quiver.

As far as early training I started out shooting bare shafts about 5-7meters from the target butt-very similar to the blank bale work of finger shooters. I would shoot 100 arrows at that close range and with bare shafts. When I was getting good arrow flight as registered by the arrow in the butt ie no nock one way or the other I would move back. I still start off my shooting with 20 shots into the target from close range with unfletched arrows and end my shooting the same way. Sometimes if the day is not going "well" and I feel sloppy I just shoot at close range to continue to engrain the process in my brain.

Murat very good info. One point though, you say that in Japanese archery you turn the bow at will. Not so though, a high level shooter will tell you that the bow must turn by it self and not helped along with the bow hand. This is one of the most difficult things to learn. You always can see a shooter who gives that little twist.

Again that is why it is so important to have a good teacher or good information. Thankfully you are doing a lot of research. Keep it up. Happy New Year. Jaap

I think Murat might have referred to the Heki (Ryu) Insai-ha school where they not only strive for the bow to spin around in the hand upon release but also flip the bow hand wrist outwards, away from path of the arrow. This technique is to propel the arrow away with as much as speed and power as possible. Afterall, Heki Ryu Insai-ha is a war technique.

Here are two clips that show this "accelerating" technique:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul6cABVk0UQ&feature=player_embedded

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK717h-5QTI

In several other japanese archery styles, where the main focus is on ceremony, meditation and personal development, this extra movement is not included. It then becomes a more natural and harmonius way of shooting.

Here's an example where the bow "only" spins in the hand:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kfSxX9bXDo&feature=related

By the way, thanks for the interesting pix and posts, Murat. Will you attend the shoot in Vsetice this summer?

Oh, here's another and even better view of the bow hand action used in the Heki Insai-ha school:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySs9zYYl2cc&feature=related

Yes Slowbow it is Heki but in war shooting and in competition(fast shooting like the temple shooting in Kyoto)you do not want the bow to turn but you twist it out of the way. Very few people know or can teach this (even in Japan). One wants to be very careful and explaining videos. The yumi(japanese bow) wants to turn by it self and doesn't need help in doing that. Good debate. N.W.

N.W.

I'm just posting what I've learn't on a European Kyudo Federation Seminar and through discussions with long time Heki Insai-ha practitioners, mainly from Germany.

However, it is always interesting to receive new information.

Thanks all!

Can I apply same technic for short horse bow?

Luckyshot, you can apply the same technique of course, but you must to keep in mind two aspects. Yumi is a very big bow, it slowly accelerates and the speed is achieved due the very long draw. To make such big bow to move aside from the arrow way you need such heavy twist, but for korean or especially turkisch bow you need less torque in your bowhand. Also follow trough can vary. You can only lean forward the bow, keeping the same angle from bow plane and forearm (is described in saracen archery) you can also let the bow to rotate simultaneous with leaning forward, so at the final of follow trough the upper limb of the bow will be orientated to the target and the string down. I feel this technique working better for very strong bows or not so stiff arrows. I have seen koreans archers shooting with pretty strong grip, so after release the bow rests in the same position like before drawing. I strongly recommend to everybody to read Saracen archery and Arab archery. Is no need to follow the books by letter, but is very instructive and is interesting to see how technique can vary from one archer to other. And for sure, those books are full of answers.

Again you don't need to twist the bow(yumi)the bow will turn very fast by it self .BUT this method is so difficult to master it easely can take 10 years! no joke.

Otherwise Murat is 100 % correct and scorillo too. You just have to shoot and shoot and shoot some more.

Yes I just did a search on internet the Saracen archery kook's price 300. wow!

Thank you for the tip about shooting the unfletched arrows. Does the direction the nock end points have any meaning? If it is pointing this way, it means you are doing this wrong? With a little luck, I will see NW at the Howard Hill shoot in June. I plan to have lots of questions for him. Bill

Scorillo is right about the relation between bow morphology and the requested "bow twist". The speed of the bow makes a big difference and that's why the Korean archers have a strong grip. Because of the very fast stroke the bowhand's twist should be very sharp and fast (despite the long draw). I would call it "the rhythm of the shot" and it changes when you switched to a heavier/lighter shaft on the same bow too.

The advice about reading the available English translations of Islamic sources is a valuable one. In some texts there are really good descriptions and explanations, however in some others you could easily be confused.

Jaap, Thanks for the info. Some of the members may not know that you have been a Kyudo practitioner for years (maybe decades?) in addition to your great skill in yumi making. This tip is much more precise than mine that was based on my limited knowledge on Kyudo.

Slowbow, Thx for the videos. I have not decided for Vsetice yet. Michal's organisations are more than just fun, so I'll try to make it. My group and I decided for a competition in Hungary this year.

You may want to add a few more books to the reading list Stephen Selby's book "Chinese Archery" Bluelake's "Korean Archery" and let's not forget a great introduction to thumb draw archery "Kay's Thumb Ring Book".

I have a friend who drew a diagram of the muscles and bow as far as draw, loose and follow through-if I can find it I will scan it to this thread. It is a really good "explanation" of what Jaap, Murat and scorillo have been describing.

Jaap thanks for the info on the Japanese shooting styles. Kyudo is fascinating and to have an expert chime in on what good form is, is a big help.

Your welcome, Murat.

Speaking for myself I'm aware that N.W. has practiced Kyudo, built yumis for years and has content customers.

Interesting what you say about the shoot in Vsetice (more than just fun). Sounds like it's worth attending. Looking forward to hear about the competition in Hungary. Good luck!

Slowbow,

Vsetice Naadam is a well-organised event with so many interesting target set-ups. Michal Sodja is a great person and an excellent archer who knows what people would like to get in a traditional archery competition. The social atmosphere is friendly and food is excellent. Yes, it really is worth attending.

The competition in Hungary will be in Eger, a town with historical importance for both Turks and Hungarians. It was a castle that resisted to Turks a long time (still stormed) and has become one of the pages of epic history of Hungarians. It's going to be an interesting attempt to participate in the event as a Turkish group. Trying to make traditional archery a tool for making friends instead of using it as a provocative stimulus for shauvenistic and discriminitive thoughts (You know that traditional archery has other meanings in Europe). We know that Hungarian organiser -now a friend- does not hesitate to put human-silhouette targets that are well-defined as Turkish-Ottoman soldiers. Contrary to some European countries it's not a taboo in Hungary. There can be a chance to change the cultural prejudices that lay deep inside and fed by politicians occasionally on purpose. Thnks for your wish!

Murat, can you tell more about the competition in hungary? Maybe who is the organizer? I would not miss this contest, but I must to get an invitation first.

Last edition at Vsetice Nadaam I was in the hospital and I missed. My archer friends and team psers told me how nice it was. This year I hope I will be there too.

Sorry for offtopic!

Is it really off-topic? Leatherwallers from the US and other countries may be interested in participating in TA competitions in European countries.

He's Tibor Olah and can be reached thru Szabad Ijasz Portal (www.szip.hu). As far as I know he's been organising archery competitions in Eger for the last 6 years anf twice a year.

Hope to see U there.

Wonderful info about Vsetice Nadaam, Murat!

Sorry to hear that you and your collegues will probably not attend. Would have looked forward to meet and learn from you.

Ya haq!!!

I'm the guy who started this thread and I don't think it is off topic. Bill

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