I'd like to start the 'mentoring' process with this simple thread..Three basic requisites for those who would build selfbows for hunting. While we all know that a bow can be made from about 'anywood', with a sharp piece of obsidian, I'm speaking of bows we might take hunting beyond the back fence, or in other times, defend home and heart with...Self bows that have your confidence at target or for a hunt.. Here are the three: 1. Tools and measuring appliances, and basic skills with them, files, drawknife,scrapers, calipers..?? 2. Place to work and certain 'fixtures'..vise, scale, rope-pulley..tip to tip tillering string..?? 3. Wood suitable for bows: encompassing species, cutting, seasoning( drying)..coupled with some understanding of the species selected's attributes for tension/compression.?? Now , what specifically, can/will the rest of you with some experience add to, or expand with on this basic list? What is the most difficult requisite to secure?..jim

I'd like to start the 'mentoring' process with this simple thread..Three basic requisites for those who would build selfbows for hunting. While we all know that a bow can be made from about 'anywood', with a sharp piece of obsidian, I'm speaking of bows we might take hunting beyond the back fence, or in other times, defend home and heart with...Self bows that have your confidence at target or for a hunt.. Here are the three: 1. Tools and measuring appliances, and basic skills with them, files, drawknife,scrapers, calipers..?? 2. Place to work and certain 'fixtures'..vise, scale, rope-pulley..tip to tip tillering string..?? 3. Wood suitable for bows: encompassing species, cutting, seasoning( drying)..coupled with some understanding of the species selected's attributes for tension/compression.?? Now , what specifically, can/will the rest of you with some experience add to, or expand with on this basic list? What is the most difficult requisite to secure?..jim

design, draw length, draw weight, pointability, stack free draw, shock free release ..is this what you mean Jim?

Patience, patience and more patience. If not, get a wood stove.

Well, the three requisites can be added to, elaborated upon..And the question is which is the most difficult piece of the three for the aspiring bowyer to define & acquire..Then we'll discuss WHY that is so....:)..jim

Experience.

I takes time to figger out all the stuff that you didn't realize that you don't know. Kinda goes along with the open mind and patience stuff which is certainly true.

I believe it is the species' attributes. That is why I generally work with osage and still have yet to learn all the ins and outs. I have tried other woods with some good and some not so good results. But I am sure this is the premise to consistantly building a good bow. Understanding the wood. Thats got my vote. Buckeye

Bravery. Fear of failure has probably stopped as many bows from being built as have been built. The only failure is the one you didn't learn anything from.

I'll more than second the notion of Patience, it takes time to learn the how to and when to use a particular tool to achieve a certain end result. Also be aware that the wood will have the last word. As we free the bow from its confining wood, it may or may not be what we originally envisioned when we first approached the stave. dvp

Bravery. You must overcome your fears and jump in. The hardest part is getting started. As you get more involved you'll learn more about what you're doing. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Don't rush. Remove wood slowly. You can always take more off, but can never put wood back on.

Good light and a good vise. Brain damage would certainly be a plus. Most of all a strong desire to build a selfbow and persistance. Darren

Doubts.Fear of Failure.Pride.(won't ask for or accept help).Impatience.Lack of Knowlege. Unwillingness to Study. Items one and two can be overcome by conquering the others. What else, we are just beginning here.. Talk about the tangible things..tools, skills, space,time, competencies..jim

The #1 tool is----a love of the process! One must love building bows. My #1 tool is a razor sharp draw knife. Learn how to take small bites and make thin shavings. No when to put the draw knfe down and pick up the rasp or Stanley Shurform. No one it is scraper time. Experience. I wish I had ths forum 10 years ago when I sarted whittiling. Please leave the power tools for bow #12 or so. Jawge

I'll add a few odds n' ends.

Being able to watch an experienced bowyer work can help considerably. There are subtle nuances to handling different tools that just can't be learned by reading a book. It's amazing what I learned in just 5 minutes of watching someone experienced use a drawknife.

A FIRMLY mounted vise makes life soooo much easier. Before I had my father-in-law weld me a post rig to lag to my concrete basement floor and mount my vise to, I struggled with a vise mounted on an unsecured workbench that moved with every pull of the drawknife. Before I even had a vise, I struggled even worse with my stave moving around from under the clamps that held it to a my picnic table.

I've found a Bowyer's Edge tool makes tillering progress much faster and more smoothly than with with just scrapers or a pocketknife.

Good light is also very helpful. By that I mean natural sunlight or bright incandescent light. I've found fluorescent lights to be worthless. I have a clamp-on light hanging from my rafters shining at a slight angle above my workvise. It helps tremedously during all stages of bow making, from chasing rings to inspecting final sanding for missed tool marks.

Plan on getting a broom and dustpan to keep just at your workbench. I frequently sweep up my shavings and dust as I'm working on a bow. That stuff spreads around the house like magic, so constant attention to keeping my basement floor clean helps. I can't lay claim to being a neat freak, but it's a guarantee that any osage shavings that get carried upstairs will be found and eaten by my little guy. Plus it gets me bigtime flack from my wife.

Learn to sharpen you 'edged weapons' well..:) Keep them sharp by proper storage. Learn to use a file or rasp properly.Men push...:) How to burnish the edge of a cabinet scraper. How to plug the belt sander in so the wide prong fits in the polarized receptacle..:)..All good stuuf so far. Firm vise, with padded jaws, a tripod to support the stave when working on it in the vise..Good lighting.. A 50 HP, 480vac 3 phase dust collection system....:)..or at least a dust pan and frequent brushings..Avoid smoking and fireworks when the dust is too thick to see from the sander...:) NEVER operate a four in hand Nicholson after four beers on a hot day in Texas...:)...jim

Jim, in my frustrating experience I'd have to say KNOWLEDGE is of the utmost importance. With no one there to "look over your shoulder" you often times end up learning from your own mistakes, when learning from someone else's is much easier.

JRW

Just keep tryin, all of the abov and most important, dont be discouraged by your failures....theres another piece of wood need carvin, keep it handy. Each bow is a learnin experience and maybe after a few hundred we can all do as well as Rsuty, Tim, Dean and jim...geo

As JRW said. And I will expand on that. For the neophyte, get a good book with easy to understand instructions and illistrations. I was fortunate to have the help of Paul COmstock with his book, The Bent Stick. It's easy for the more advanced to say "the stave will show you what it wants to be" but unfortunately it won't for the novice for he will lack the understanding and experience reguired to read the stave.

I read somewhere that you should expect to break a few before you get a "keeper" and there may well be some truth to that... Garry

Tangible stuff on my list would be: #1) tools! Even if its just a hatchet, rasp and cabinet scraper. Sharpen them and keep them sharp and clean. I use a cabinet scraper more than any of the other tools I have, whether its on a bow or a piece of furniture. #2) Books/mentor. Read everything available and ask anyone that will listen to your question. Not all answers will help but if you ask enough someone will get it right.

Intangible stuff would be: #1) PATIENCE! It takes time to make a thing of beauty from a chunk of wood. I was always taught to get good at it and then work on doing it faster. #2) PATIENCE! See #1.

Always be proud of what you make, and make something to be proud of....Take the time to do it right, or dont do it. Never be afraid to experiment but keep in mind it probably has already been tried.

Randy

From my limited experience I'd say this site is my number one tool, when I get stuck I put the bow down and go to the computer. Don't be afraid to ask questions, there is so much knowledge here and guys are always willing to help. AndyM

I hate hearing expect your first attempts to break. Sometimes that's true, but not neccessarily. Look back at Terry Green's first osage bow, "Maiden Voyage". It's beautiful!

My first two attempts were with boards (another mistake) that broke. Much of that was due to poor board selection (grain runout), but part of it was because I was in the mindset of expecting them to break...from reading threads that said my first attempts would break. It wasn't until I worked osage with fierce attention and conviction that I produced a well-tilllered, good shooting bow.

If you start out planning to fail, or with the premise that you are "just practicing", you already lack the conviction needed to make a bow, and you will fail. Instead, I'd advise that when you attempt working on your first stave, do your damnest to make it into a bow. Plan on suceeding. Expect to make nothing less than a good bow. Don't be discouraged by a broken bow (if it happens), but learn a lesson, be steadfast, and move on.

tool experimentation: There are a thousand different tools that can be used to make a bow. We see this every time some one asks about tools. You need to find the ones that work best for you. A well known bowyer uses spoke shaves and block planes, he taught me to make my first four bows, I still can not use either for making a bow. Some say use a four way file, I prefer using four different files. Be adaptable, I have seen people that thought you use one tool for a time then switch to tool number 2, then tool number 3, never going back to tool one. Know when to use a given tool to accomplish a given chore. PRIDE, put craftsmanship before finish, put craftsmanship before speed. Never be satisfied, always seeking to improve.

...TwoWalks...

know/learn what a bent bow looks like. You can not tiller if you do not know where you are going.

Maybe a valuable 'tool' would be a seven foot long piece of butcher paper?..following what MoBow last stated? Write some successful selfbowyers and have them send a simple tracing of their best bows on that piece of butcher paper as some guideline for how the bow bends at brace height..A few notes accompanying the tracing concerning the wood species and characteristics, width and thickness of limb at several stations, and finished weight/draw length of those traced bows would be a helpful guideline for the newer bowyer..I bet many self bowyers have admired fiberglass laminate longbows and have attemted to get their self bows to look like them at brace height..which can be a bad error..:(..jim

Once you get he hand tools. I do love my stationary shop belt sander for finishing and even a little tillering. i built my first bow from locust and I relied heavily on it. Now the bench. Here is te one I use. Anchor it firmly to the floor. Jawge

A nd avery imporant tool for the bowyer. The rope and pulley system for safety. Using it also allows the bowyer to watch the limbs flex without holding it for long periods strung as would happen on a tilering stick. Jawge

Time.. I know we all have the same amount of time in a day, but I sure as heck don't have the time in the shop like I used to. I sure wish my three little girls would grow up soon.. ( Just kidding )

As far as the most important of the 3 basics would be #3. Without the proper material, you will end up with poor results. If you are using a hickory stave that was freshly cut, then expect a huge set due to moisture. A board stave without the proper grain orientation and expect to see firewood shortly after floor tiller. Granted, you can make a bow from any specie of wood available, however the knowledge of selecting the right tree or board and understanding how to care for it is extremely simple, yet many people fail to follow some simple rules and end up with a broken bow and loss of confidence.

Tools are no big deal.. Understanding how to use a spoke shave, drawknife and rasp properly and keep them in good working order takes a little understanding, but you can build a bow without alot of fancy tools and just use a hatchet. You won't have a quality, beautiful hunting bow. But it will fling an arrow.

Having a place to work is a luxury that is nice. A clean orderly shop is wonderful, but not a must have. I have friends who work in a 6x6 dark closet and can produce wonderful bows.

Building selfbows is a journey. You can't start the journey one day and arrive at the destination the next. Actually, you will never arrive at the destination. You start with a below average chuck of wood and work on it in a cluttered shop with crappy tools. You get bit by the bug, eventually and gradually you will get better wood, better tools and a better shop. There are NO shortcuts to success in building quality hunting bows. A mentor will help speed you along, but you must put in the sweat equity.

If you have never felled a 20" diameter Osage tree and boned out 30 staves. You haven't lived...

Will

Good thread.

In the tool dept. I would add a moisture meter or other suitably reliable method of gauging the moisture content of a stave. Learn the optimum moisture content for the wood you are using and get it there before you go past a stiff floor tiller. A person could layout and tiller an efficient bow of sound wood, but with too much moisture it could end up being a dog and follow the string, making him wonder about his choice of wood or abilities. Oh yeah, safety glasses are a must when running a chainsaw or pounding wedges, it'd be tough to make a selfbow by feel.:^)

I think the toughest requisite to obtain in making a wooden bow is the understanding of the wood and the proccess. The tools can be bought, books read, and advise taken, but the 'understanding' of how to coax a standing tree into a quality bow encompasses so much and builds only with time and experience, successes and failures.

I'm still hoping my failures get fewer and my bows get better, but I ain't gonna live forever :^)

Jethro

not only knowing what a bow should look like at full draw but realizing that there are differant tillers required depending on the front profile of the bow. Not all bows come " round compass " or have an elipticle tiller. Slowly teaching your bow to bend instead of yanking it back or stringing it up too soon. Never pulling it when its too heavy or the tiller isn't right. Knowing when to put the rasp away and use the scraper. Knowing when to put it away until tommorro. Darren

1. Sharp tools. If you can't sharpen your tolls, have someone teach you. Dull tools require more effort, tiring you and causeing mistakes. They are also unpredictable concerning wood removal.

2. DRY wood!! You mus own a drying box if you live in a climate where average ambient RH is over 40%. You will simply never see the best in either your wood or your tools if you don't work with dry wood.

3. A critical eye. You must develop the habit of looking for the tiniest flaw in the bend of a limb. I don't mean perfect symmetry here. I mean an eye that will not let you proceed with the bow until you have measured and remeasured a suspect area with whatever tools you have to be absolutely sure it is carrying it's fair share of the workload.

4. A jaundiced eye to dogma concerning bow design. Bows are not complex tools. Sit down and think about how much wood you need to carry a given load, and where that wood is most evernly ditributed. Within a few bows, you will have a good idea of what makes a satisfactory bow, and it can be quite different than some of the popular designs around today.

JEFF! Hey- longtime bro. Good to know you're alive!

Jim

I would add this to the top of my list of requisites. TIME. With a young family, jobs, and coaching duties (not to mention time to shoot and hunt) I have a very difficult time finding the time to work on a bow. Because of this I often think that I rush the building of a bow and ruin it in haste. I have trouble starting something that I won't be able to finish in a timely manner and sometimes just don't get started.

What do some of my fellow LW'ers do to create the time that is needed to create bows? Maybe being good at making bows helps you make them faster, but who has the time to get good at it?

Should novices, like myself spend the money to take a bowbuilding workshop for a day or a weekend? Would this bump the learning curve sufficiently to make building bows a weekend project instead of a two-month project?

Stan

Stan,

I have very little time for bow building. I own my company, I have a 3.5yrs old and twins that turn 1 tomorrow. I know what you mean about no time. The only time I have for building, is after the little ones are in bed. When I'm not spending time with the wife, I will be in the shop for a few hours.

A class would speed up the learning curve, but I just can't see spending money on something that many people would offer for free. Ask around and you will find someone to help you.. I see you live in OR. Sorry I can't help. I'm sure someone will be able to get you going.

Will

I highly recommend a class if possible. There is a lot to be said for your first bow actually holding together. As far as the expense ... Class with successful bow $175.00/ no class with three or four unsucessful bows at $75.00 per stave aprx. you do the math. I don't know how others feel, but I put a great deal of value on my time as well as success. I have taken five classes over the years and will take a few more before its over. This is not to say you have to pay for a class / finding a bowyer to teach you is still a class even if he charges you nothing, count yourself lucky.

...TwoWalks...

Boy, lots of great tips!..For any who have yet to do so, George Tsoukalas has a terrific website with much good info for the selfbowyer, and maker of shoot arrows..:) George shows a picture of the rope-pulley tillering tree/system..Sure beats the tiller stick.. I'd add some refinements to the setup that ae proven invaluable to me over the years.. 1. Add a 100# scale into the system, as it will allow you to see limbs bending in unison and how much, as well as keep you from exceeding your target weight while tillering..I also do not string the rough bow when on the tillering setup, but use a stout tip-to-tip tillering boot-string in lieu of bracing the bow.. The addition of a white wall with horizontal lines directly behind the tillering setup adds a quick visual/peripheral means to more accurately see if the limb tips are coming round apace with one another..______________________________________________ We can go on..Many of these tools and refinements to the process are very inexpensive, but you need some space, even if it's in the barn or on the back porch.. Concerning 'time', when one breaks down the bow-building into manageable bites, he can accomplish quite a bit in an hour's session several times a week..and have time to contemplate the next step and anticipate the progress as the bow emerges ..:) My lovely wife still gives me about a week's reprieve once a month so I can work into the evening a bit :)..jim

Concerning time...When I'm up to it, a large part of my bowbuilding happens between 10pm to 3am, when my wife and little guy are up in bed. Some weeks I can swing a few nights like this, some I can't. I also put in alot of 15-30 minute scraping sessions here and there, like when my little guy is napping or when my wife is engrossed in Oprah. That might let me chase a ring for up to half a bow length. Or it might let me advance tiller from 20 to 21" on the tree. It's not much, but it adds up and helps.

There are two things that matter in my mind the most. First is a good teacher when you first start out. Sure you can do it on your own and many have, but it takes up far less time and greatly diminishes the frustration if you have a coach when you need them. I have my old Jr. High math teacher that is getting into selfbows now, and I will try to show him what no one else did me so that he can get going a little bit better than I did. I gave him a prime piece of osage; together we will have him a real nice bow before long. That early success will keep him hooked, you can bet on that.

Second, having quality tools. Folks, you can pay the man now, or pay the man later. An axe is not an axe. I found this out the hard way. A true woodworking tool is a joy to use and quickly becomes the weapon of choice when you get a mean piece of wood. I have found that I can do more with my axe than I can with a knife at times. A good drawknife is worth its weight in gold. I don't like paying lots of money for anything, but there are times when you just buckle under the pressure an save your pennies. It is then you realize just how hard you have been making this whole trip on yourself...

And a third thing: This site. Hands down. Books are irreplaceable, but this place is a true requirement when the chips are up on the stave 'cause I am stuck.

Wil - happy birthday to the little ones!!! Still gotta make it back down here Bud.

TK

Jim

Your tip on using a scale in the pulley system is a good one. Looking back on the mistakes of my last bow, which turned out to be too light, I would offer up the following as a reason.

I thought that I would be okay for weight because I was measuring weight as I was working the bow with a long tiller string. I'd get the bow to bend 3 or 4 inches and check for tiller and for weight. The weight seemed to be right on for the draw length that I was going for. I'd pull the string farther and check again. At this point I made a force draw curve and things were looking up. Here's the mistake:

I began measuring weight from the moment it registered on the scale. This is not accurate for finished bow weight. On a finished bow there is a lot of stress put on the bow to get it braced. When it is braced it is truly at 0 pounds. Because I was measuring weight with a tillering string from the moment it registered, I believe I factored what my scale read as draw weight. I now believe that it was actually "brace" weight, which wouldn't count for any draw weight. Does this make sense?

Looking back, I also see that although my draw length is 27" my bow only draws 21" if it is braced at 6". Therefore, would a force draw curve need to get to my desired weight in 21"? I have an unconfirmed hunch that it does. Could this be why I usually come in underweight?

Stan

Jeff Strubberg is right on concerning keeping your edged tools sharp, cleaning and oiling them when done, and storing them properly. Dull tools require more force and the more force you exert, the less control you have.. Good tools are not cheap, but 'cheap tools' are no good for a craftsman..Nicholson files, good Swedish steel in a 6" drawknife for the fine work, a small but sharp and well balanced axe for the cutting to the line..You can find much 'good steel' in older Dunlap draw knives at swap meets, if they have not been ground to hell or had their temper destroyed.. Stan, A trick I learned that helps one avoid set, and hit his target weight is this: Use the tip-to-tip tillering string with the 'boots'.. ( like a 'buff' stringer) in conjunction with the scale, rope-pulley..For good bows, that will have cast, I estimate that the force used to brace the bow in pounds is between 70 & 80% of what the bow would weigh on the scale at 28" IF it were to be full drawn at that point in the process...not that it necessarily WOULD sustain full draw at that point..:)Wood has it's tensile and compressive limits) So,rather than actually bracing the bow early on, I pull the bow and approach limb bending deflex as IF it were to be braced, watching limbs working, bending, unison AND the scale...IF, as I begin to bend the bow, one or both of the limbs need attention concerning bend, I back off and attend to that..IF the limbs really start looking great concerning bend and tiller, before I get much beyond brace height bending, I pay attention to the scale..and avoid te temptation to brace it, and certainly to begin drawing it .. ....EX: IF I am shooting for a bow 70#@28", I don't want to see the scale register more than about 55# to approximate brace height bend..I believe that particularly with bows that will be thinned in the core... ( yew wood ELBs for example) that need to be reduced to come down to weight, that to overstress the wood at this point takes cast from the wood, and causes much of the 'set' problems so many experience..( SET EQUALS REDUCED CAST BTW) Bows that are reduced in weight by narrowing the limbs in WIDTH rather than by reducing the core THICKNESS ,such as the bow that starts at 1.5" in osage, and is trimmed in width to 1.25 to hit weight, are not so much affected..jim

All good post and appropriate. The hardest thing that I have seen new bowyers struggle with is to know what tool to use when. A self bow is a seeries of refinemanets - coarse to very fines. I have seen 'em using a cabinet scraper whe then should be using a horse shoe rasp, senn 'em using a four way rasp when they should have been using a cabinet scraper. The hardest thing is - knowing how much wood is on your limb and how much should be removed with what tool, to what point and when to switch tools. A good tiller is a progession of tools from ax (etc) to 320 grit. It takes pratice to be able to visualize what tool to use. the stage your limb is at and what it takes to refine it to the next stage???? Experience.

Rusty

Thanks, Jim. Definitely add a scale guys and gals.I like the type that compouders use. Hand held. The weight stays registered once you let down. Never draw a bow beyond target weight by more than 5 lbs. Never string a bow that is overweight. I determine when to string the ow when I get target weight at 10 in with the long tillering string. The bow is still unstrung.I had many bows break while stringing for the first time because they were to far over weight. jawge

Concerning moisture content, I don't own a moisture meter myself..Using Tim Baker's chart, I store the staves and billets in a relative humidity ambient of 50-55%..which, after the wood gravitates in that ambient , equates to 10-12% MC..dry enough for good service and performance..I have an inexpensive barometer/thermometer/humidity meter that resides in my wood and bow room..Even tho folks think moss grows on our toes here in Oregon, the RH in this daylite basement room stays pretty constant at the 50-55% place...Good for people indoors, and for bow wood...jim

One of the biggest mistakes that I see, it removing wood during tillering and placing the bow on the tiller block and pulling the bow. The bow needs to be worked about 30 - 50 pulls before checking the tiller and the weight again. A lot of the under weight bows come from the lack of doing this.

Next best tool I have is a nice piece of polished petrified wood that I use to burnish the wood during finishing.

...TwoWalks...

Absolutely, that's one reason why I like the pulley system I use. You can set the bow back up after wood removal and exercise the limbs at short draws. Jawge

Darren

Forgive the ignorance, but because I don't know the answer I've got to ask the question. How come a bow that is braced at six inches is only at 0 pounds if it has 6 inches of set? When I put my bow on a scale with it braced and pull the string one inch, the scale registers somewhere around 3 pounds. I know that it takes more than 3 pounds to get the bow braced. This is why I said that the bow is "zeroed out" when strung. The scale starts measuring only after the bow is strung, as far as draw weight is concerned. I'm confused, help.

Stan

Good question Stan.

I figger if you put a scale in-line with the bow string you'd git your answer. I don't know exactly how that works out in terms of physics but it's the way I think of it.

When you brace a bow with a bit of reflex you see the diff. One of my first bows follows the string nearly 3". It near braces itself. Got another, thank goodness, that I have to really keep a hold of to push-pull brace it. I'm a fair sized man and it just pulling maybe 55# @ 28". 'Ole Jim is definately on the mark with that high weight at brace height lesson.

Now fellas I know ya'll are masters and all and I ain't supposed to contradict, given my little experience. However, I know a little bit about steel, just from doing around in the country, welding and sharpening various things from bushhogs to skinning knifes. All I'm gonna say is good steel don't have to be that premium overseas stuff. It is sure nuff good no doubt. I'm just saying.

I got me an old "yoke ox" or some such at the country hardware store that 'll sure take a clean edge and hold it. Got and 30 yr old rusty piece of crap looking scraper with a great big handle like a paint scraper I've resharpened a few times. It'll still cut a paper curl the length of a limb. I'm just saying a man can use "good" tools without hockin' his retirement for it. A lot of it depends on knowing how to sharpen, not abuse and care of your tools. I do buy Nicholson files and rasps of course. ;)

DCM you are correct about old tools and not going into hock to get them. Some of the best steel in fact is found in old drawknives. I have six or seven and the newest one was made about 1910. Good quality does not mean new or expensive. But they still need to be sharpened and kept that way.

Jawge, I am with you, I pull the bow with the tiller string and keep working it slowly increasing the distance until I get back to the draw length I was checking the tiller at. This keeps down the stress and the string follow. This fits in the rule ... go slow, check often.

As Al Herron says " If you are enjoying it, what difference does it make how long it takes. If you are not enjoying it, why are you doing it."

...TwoWalks...

Stan I guess I'm not smart enough to understand the guestion. If a bow has 6" of set and let's say it is 62" in a straight line between the nocks. If ya out a string exact 62" loop to loop the bow will not be under tension so yep the bow is at zero pounds and now brace at 6". To get the string on you will have to flex the bow a bit this it will feel like tension. When the sring is splipped over the nock and into the groove ya et off the tension you are holding and the bow is now at zero.

Sory I'm sure I misunderstood the quesiton. If I didn't - no limb flex passed the set no tensio no pounds. ????

Rusty

Rusty

TwoWalks, I have a pile of that petrified wood here, how do ya polish it? stuff I have is hard as hard can be.

Have to agree, not bendin the wood enough after scraping will result in too much taken off in the end. Pully system is the only way to go too, and a wrap/take-up on the tillerin string to keep it short also...geo

Sandman, Here's my 2-cents on your question. The force that you are measuring with the scale when the bow is drawn a slight amount is the force required to displace the string an inch in the direction of the draw. It is not the tension force in the string. Draw a simplified diagram of the bow drawn an inch. The diagram would show a force of 3#'s in the direction of pull and two forces directed in opposite directions(tension) at the angle of the string. Three forces in static equilibrium must form a triangle by the laws of physics. So, assume that the string angle relative to horizontal is 2-1/2 degrees when your bow is pulled 1 inch and that you measured a force on your scale of 3#'s. The equilibrium triangle would have a vertical leg of magnitude 3#. The angle opposite that leg would have an inside angle of 5 degrees. The other two inside angles of the triangle would be 87-1/2 degrees. Solve for the magnitude of either of the legs and you have the tension of the string. The answer is (3*sin(87.5))/sin(5)=34#. If you reduce the string angle by adding reflex to the limb you will increase the measured force. If you increase the measured force at intial draw, all else being equal through the power stroke, you increase the area under the force draw curve which equates to a faster bow. Hope that helps.

Terry

George, I will state the obvious ... you polish petrified wood like you polish any stone ... BUT I have no idea how that is done, I got mine from a rock hound. I re-read what I wrote and think it could be misleading ... you can use any type of stone or even a small olive oil bottle or other hard object ... Mine just happens to be petrified wood, I chose it because of Spiritual reasons, to impart long life into the bow.

I was saying to Nara the other day, I was going to take some bows to the local Gunshow and put up a huge sign that says ... Cherokee Rocket Launchers ... now reading this math on the 0# at brace ... dang this is Rocket Science.

...TwoWalks...

Jim and Terry

I think that you both understood my question. Terry, your calculations seem correct to me, I should've thought of that myself. The 34 pounds you get, is what I've been misreading on my scale as actual, braced draw weight, therefore, misleading myself as to the finished weight of the bow.

I probably should've stated the question this way. Take an unstrung bow with zero set and put a bowstringer on it. Attach the bowstringer to a scale and pull the scale until you can get the bow strung to a brace height of six inches. Read the scale and see how many pounds it took to get the bow there. Your bow is now strung and "zeroed" on a force draw curve, IF you are starting that curve from the braced height (which I believe most of us do). Now, put a 28 inch arrow on the string and pull it to full draw and measure the weight. This would be AMO if I am not mistaken. This measured weight is gathered in the 22 additional inches it took to get the braced bow to 28 inches, as Jim explains above. This weight does not take into account the weight your scale read when stringing the bow. Except, as Terry explained, in the tension in the string.

I believe that the problem I was having in making weight was figuring the weight that my scale read as I was using a long tillering string as draw weight, rather than the force required to get a bow strung. I hope this makes more sense. If it doesn't, I am sorry. However, my head now hurts so I think I'll teach 7th grade and sooth it.

Stan

The most difficult of the really tangibles seem to be 1)space, 2)tools, and 3) wood. There is a huge amount of info here for the first timers- so while there are maybe more important factors, many are accessible.

I am lucky to have plenty of space, spare lettuce to flip at new tools, and a half cord or more of bow wood. Many folks I've tried to help out were missing at least one or two of the three I mentioned.

As for time (not a tangible per se)- I've made more than a couple of bows total 30 minutes to an hour at a time. Walk out in the garage, turn on the light and radio and pick up where you left off. Bows turn out better for me in several sessions rather than one or two long ones (burned whole weekends just making bows)- taking a break and coming back at a piece with a fresh perspective is like stepping back and walking around a chessboard sometimes.

My opinion, as always, worth exactly what you paid for it.

-pbh

Dee Two Walks..Can you elaborate on the burnishing you describe? What woods seem to respond to this technique and in your estimation, why?.It would seem that burnishing would microscopically 'compact' the wood surface..I have long felt that particularly at the final stages of the bow's crafting, that the bowyer/hunter's heart and soul are to some degree imparted to the work by real hand work, be it the sanding, steel-wooling, application of finish or with your smooth stone burnishing..Mindset is important at this point for certain...:)...I sometimes whisper to the bow of our plans together in the future..:) I essentially burnish the yew or osage bows with a hard hand rubbing-in of good boiled linseed oil in conjunction with 00,000, & 0000 good grade steel wool in succession..When this is going on, every tool mark and scratch is removed, and the surface takes on a warmth and luster as if it were finished..even to this preparatory to whatever final ( oil compatible) finish one might use..jim

Sandman I was looking at the book " Archery the Technical Side" and it shows a chart of the same bow at 0 , 3 , 6 , and 9" brace height. All though the early draw lengths 0 - 12" the weight varied quite a bit they all were within 1-2 #'s at full draw. Seemed to all join together at about 18" draw and start to spread slightly at about 25". The same article said that the tension in the bow string doesn't change much for differant draws. It is usually higher at brace hieght than at full draw. Tension reaches a minimum at @ 1/2 draw. Darren

Darren

Thanks a million! You just ruined my best excuse for not making weight! I'd like to read that article if it explains why this happens. On second thought, no I wouldn't. This is getting too dang technical for me. Let's suffice by saying that I don't have the hang of making fine bows just yet. I've only shot and fooled around with selfbows that I have made, so I don't even know what a fine one looks/performs like. I plan on fixing that problem this Spring when I search out some accomplished selfbowyers in Oregon and pay a few visits. Getting technical is kinda fun, maybe I would like to read that article afterall, but not now as I'm bleeding out of my right ear;o)

Seriously, I appreciate the info. BTW, where in New York do you live? Is it close to Scarsdale?

Stan

This was is an excellent thread Jim. As to the % of draw during tiller...if I understand what you are saying, 75% of you target weight at approximate brace height regardless what the final draw length is to be. Does that some it up? At this point is when you begin a slow process of core removal to achieve full draw? (As I write this I am kinda thinking/typing out loud) So What I am hearing you say is brace height is your finger print to a full drawn bow? At what point in the process do you begin drawing past brace height? Don't mean to through so much out at once but after reading your thoughts in the past thread on "set" I am very interested in how you do it! Buckeye

Stan-- reflexed bows make the string "taughter". They would show high early draw weight compared to a bow with set. They are more difficult for the inexperienced to tiller. That's why the reflexed bow will show more draw at 1 in. than with set.

DCM, the best scraper i have ever used is an old meatcleaver i inherited from my Dad. azor sharp curls. there's probably more carbon in that baby than in the pencil siting in my pocket now. I defintely agree with you. Jawge

Stan-- reflexed bows make the string "taughter". They would show high early draw weight compared to a bow with set. They are more difficult for the inexperienced to tiller. That's why the reflexed bow will show more draw at 1 in. than with set.

Sandman I live in Upstate NY about half way between lake Placid and lake George. How far are you missing your targeted draw weight by ? Maybe your not compensating enough for the weight it loses during break-in and tillering. If trying for a fifty pound bow instead of relying on a force draw curve keep it say 50# at a lower draw length and decrease it each time you increase the draw on the tiller. Also work the limbs several times when the weight and tiller looks good at a certain draw length. Once I get my bows bending 20 " on the tiller with a tightened up stringer I string it up to a low brace of 4" even the limbs up then ,leave it braced for several hours. Now I start checking tiller again at 12-24" in 2 " increments. Making sure nit to exceed weight or bend any farther once a problem is noticed until its fixed. At 24" I increase it close to final brace height. That book has alot of good info. in it but it really does give me a headache. Good reading while I'm at work though. Darren

Two Walks, ya. Any method you use to make sure your stave is not too heavy on the 1st stringing is good. Jim and I do it empirically to make sure. It must be the scientist in me. At this point I intitively no when the stave is ready for stringing but I like that empirical confirmation that the scale provides. That's after abou 10 years of bowyerin' --learning by the school of hard nocks (pun intended!). jawge

Stan, I may have confused you. Putting the scale on an unstrung stave with the tillering string on and measuring the weight at ten inches is my method of making sure the bow will not be strained beyond draw weight ever--even at its first stringing. I figure it takes me that much pull on the stave (10 in.) to string it for the first time with a stringer. Many newcomers go from floor tillering to stringing the stave. Experienced bowyers can sense when the stave is sufficiently reduced in weight to call for a 1st stringing. I like to let the scale do my thinking for me. Here is a concrete example. You want a 5o# bow. Your stave is not sufficiently reduced in weight. Let's say at 26 in. it would register 100# and you still try to string it. At best it will take a set. It will probably break, however. jawge

All my bows get burnished with a glass bottle. This must be done after staining or the wood won't absorb the stain. The fibers and/or the spaces between them have been compressed. I do believe that the compressed back is te longer lasting back --at least with white woods. jawge

George and Darren-

Thanks for the advice. I've got an oak board and a hickory stave that I will try again with. Would LOVE to make a bow that falls in the 50-60# range. End up with 35-42# just about every time. I also get a considerable amount of set 2-3". I think this is partially due to storing most of my wood in an uninsulated garage in Oregon. Will see if my wife will let me keep it in the house. How long should it be indoors before I begin building the bow? I don't have, and can't afford, a moisture meter.

Stan

Buckeye..The 'rule of thumb' I spoke of is one I use based on a 28" draw length..It is not an absolute for any stave or every wood..When you work with a wood species for awhile, certain relationships begin to emerge for the bowyer.. At least for the bows I have built, which are pretty efficient designs and tightly braced, I have found that what the scale shows is required in force to bend the bow to approximate brace height is about 75-80% of what the bow's draw weight might be at 28" full draw..Bear in mind that I am building bows fom osage or yew, and not building any that are overly long or short..nor overbuilt..and they are of the heavier sort.. I go thru this exercise after floor tillering feel and eye tell me the bow is starting to bend well, and I often use a tip to tip tillering boot in front of a mirror to see how the limbs are doing before it goes on the scale..BTW, The 'tillering boot bow string' hangs on the scale, bow below, and I have a 1" wide leather strap and 'S' hook attached from there down to a bully and out to my pull rope with handle... Often, I am regulating the limbs for bend and balance by narrowing and/or reducing the core as I keep an eye on the weight..IF I have a yew bow that is 1.25" wide, and I reduce it in width to 1" for example, I have reduced the weight by 1/5th , and have retained the core to drive the shaft..Reducing the core of a well bending bow to make weight can take a bunch of weight off fast, and one needs to re-tiller the bow completely ..I usually do both width and core reductions to hit weight..and of course, there is a limit concerning how narrow a 6' ELb wants to be before lateral stability can become a problem..As the bow gets deeper and narrower, PERFECT layout becomes of absolute critical importance..I consider perfect bi-lateral layout of critical importance anyhow..:)jim

Jawge, I think what you hae said about burnishing is right..still waiting on Two Walks..:) I'd think that the ring porous woods would benefit from burnishing to some degree..One wonders about the real value of compacting of wood fibers for several thousandths by burnishing..as the wood is working in tension and compression well beneath that thin burnished layer..Could burnishing be more of an aid to retard moisture ingress than for tensile or compressive strength per se? Might not a well applied filler and finish serve the whitewood bowyer as well?..jim

I've got mixed feelings on burnishing. I just don't see the advantage of crushing wood fibers on the back of a stave that I so carefully revealed with a gooseneck cabinet scraper. It takes a great deal of care to get to the back ring of a bow, trying not to thin the ring in it's high spots or scalp the pin knots, getting into all the lows to get one continuous ring. It just seems unlogical to me to then crush the wood fibers that you just worked so delicately on.

I've made many bows with both a burnished back and without and I've only had one bow break that could be determined to be a tension failure, this was on thin ringed osage.

Most bows that break across the back are from a failure of the belly wood to take the compression. It may look like a tension failure but the tension failure comes after the belly damage has been done.

I burnished bows because I was told you had to. I stopped doing it because I couldn't figure out the reason behind it. I haven't had a failure in an unburnished bow....Yet.

As a neophyte bow whittler these are my mistakes. At least the ones of which I'm aware. I increase the set by pulling past my draw weight during tillering. I am a bit confussed about which shape tiller is best with which design bow. I took to long removeing wood early and removed wood to fast in the end tillering. I have attempted making 3 bows over the years. My best one from Osage is a shooter but has 2" of set at rest. I was considering pulleys and scale, and find this thread saying it is important. I am unsure about moisture here in the southeast, and am considering a hot box. I have been lurcking on the bowyer threads, and find my interest perked. It helps to know if these smart alexs can do it, then maybe this clown can. I've been inspired, I think.

Jim and Keith, maybe. I can't empirically say that burnishing will retard splintering. It is more of a feeling and a seeing.I can see that the wood fibers are denser and I hope stronger. I do like the burnished look, however, on a bow of whitewood or osage. I even repaired dings on that bow I made from the yew stave you sent, Jim, (with the burnishing techique). I even do the same on my arrers. Most are burnished right from the start.--------- DRT, confusing people is my job! I'm a chem teacher. LOL. Anyway, I mean the string is on loosely so that the bow is unstrung; the string is hanging below the bow. (Any stout cord will do. Jim's suggestion of using a bow stringer is excellent. My tillering string fits around the nocks like a regular bow string. No slippage that way as I do flex the tillering string to 10 in.) I then measure from the slightly taught string down 10 inches. Mark it with tape or pencil. Flex the limbs waching for proper arc. Even arc. Bend starting after the fades, dips. I like to get as much of the limb as possible working. Attach the scale to the rope; when I get target weight at 10 in. and all bending is even and proper, the stave gets strung. Not until then. I popped many an overweight bow while stringing in my early days. I shoulda read Jim Hamm's writings more closely. Never string a bow that is more than 20 lbs overweight. When I am done long string tillering my bows are about 10-15 lbs over target weight. Leaves plenty of room for final tillering. Sorry about the confusion. It took a long time to work out this procedure; it does indeed work. Works on whitewoods, yew and osage. Whitewoods must be tillered with much more tlc. Never strain them more than 10 lbs overweight(less is better) after the stave is strung and you are in the final tillering stage. Never. Narrowing the limbs is a useful technique (as Jim mentioned) particualrly when faced with a very reflexed stave. The temptation to thin limbs to achieve final tiller is often great. The budding bowyer must watch not to thin the thickness too much and weaken the stave. Decesions. Sometimes the stave must be narrowed. Found that out the hard way also! Great thread, Jim. Lotsa help here for the taking and absorbing! This is stuff you don't see in books. Most of this represents the refinement of technique. This is stuff the old timers knew but was lost to us. Feel certain of that. The old apprentice system is gone. seems that the internet is providing many witha start. That's gratifying. Stay persistent, JRW and Sepp and others. Stan you are welcome. Take your time all. Listen and learn. Learn to love the process of making a bow. The skll will follow forthwith. Don't rush the learning process. This takes time to learn and practice. You'll be able to turn out bows from white, orange and red and purple woods and it won't matter what you are using because making bows is fun. Enjoy. Gosh that PM hunt and nap must have revitalized ole jawge. Jawge

Doug, as a bow moves from bending in the handle to a handle bow the tiller also moves from a more circular one to a more elliptical one. TBB#1. Jim Hamm's chapter on tillering. The best I have read on that subject. period. There are many bows shown there while drawn. The only thing that chapter lacks is pics of charactr bows on the draw. Moisture in your area must be a problem. I love my moisture meter. The best $80 bow tool investment I made. I test all the time. Even while the bow is under construction. My previos posts above already spoke about the importance of not straining a stave past draw by too much. Osage is strong but there is a limit. I've seen many osage bows with way too much set. 2 in. is acceptable is far as I'm concerned. Jawge

George, thanks for the advice. I plan to start a bow again in the near futher, and hope to get all the advice I need here on the leather wall. I have all 3 TBB. A bit of bowyer overload for me, I suspect. I want near perfect in a bow of course, but realiz my limits. However, wanting perfect has probably limited my forgeing ahead.

You are welcome, Darren. I hear ya, Doug. Keep whittiling. get the arrow coming out of the bow. First steps first! Perfection will never truly arrive but the process will become easier. I always see room for improvement in my bows. Perfection belongs only to my Lord Jesus! Jawge

Jim, as i read down to this point from your question there have been a couple of good replies to the question of burnishing. First I think that on most white woods the crompression on the fibers might add a little to the seface strength. I agree also with the post about crushing the back after you have gotten the single growth ring. I use burnishing the most of woods like hickory, as they have a habit of raising the grain fibers and I know this helps seal the wood as well. Burnishing is not a substatute for sealing the wood with a good finish it only aids in the sealing. I also use the burnishing stone on Yew wood, back and belly as it also has this same tendancy to raise the grain. On the sap wood i think it also compresses the grain tighter and helps make the back stronger agains bumps and bruses. CAUTION; as with anything burishing can be over done.

During the burnishing I have also noticed that light tool marks show up and you can get rid of them during this process. NOTHING gets me worse than to get on the finish and then start finding those little tool marks the finish magnifies.

...TwoWalks...

We have not yet talked about 'layout' of the selfbow stave..tools...techniques for 'optimizing' the stave and insuring that even on a 80#@30" ELB that is 1" wide..:)..that the limbs don't cast off because we have not truly laid the centerline out well..Here are some of the tools I use..after roughly preparing the back of the stave. 1.Masking tape, laid down on the bow's back when sitting plumb in the bench vise so as to best orient the stave's potential...then trimmed to the bow's rough limb edges with the downward stroke of the file.. 2.Chalk line...used to lay out the bi-lateral symmetry of the stave from end to end to best avoid defects and optimize the wood one has to work.Take care that you have sufficient core depth at dips and other critical points..aty least 3/4 of your planned width is a good rule..Snap the line TRUE ..EYEBALL IT after striking, and if it looks good, use the straightedge and ink pen on the masking tape to establish your end to end centerline.......Re-do it if it ain't right..This is important. 3. A 36" steel straightedge and 4" spring clamps to hold it so the lines can be marked.. Next step is the chronology of work order as you progress to the bending stage..jim

Jim,

You outa bust this into separate threads...

1) Selfbow layout.

2) Roughing in a bow.

3) Tillering

Wood choices. Bow design. Tools. Wood gathering and preparation. Finishes. Dog gone my head is spinning with the possibilities.

Heck, just this general thread is already a hum dinger.

Well i didn't intend to dominate the mentoring issue at all..Where's Gilman Keasey, Chet Stevenson, Earl Ullrich, Harry Hobbs, L.L.'Flight'Daley, Glenn St Charles, Nels Grumley, Homer Prouty, Adrian Hodgkin, Jim Duff, Robert Elmer, Saxton Pope, Art Young, Hugh Rich, Don Brown, Steve Martin, Yount from Seattle, Horack from Pennsylvania, Russ with his duo-flex, Russ Hoogerhyde, Hugh Rich, Will & Maurice Thompson, Adolph Shane, Robert Hardy, Pip Bickerstaffe, Tim Baker, Dean Torges, Rusty Craine, Joe Mattingly,Joe St Charles, Roy King, Robert Hardy, Roger Ascham,Jim Hamm, and countless others dead or alive when we need 'em?..:)....jim

DCM might have a good idea. At least it would be easier to make a printed copy.

well, print it now..and we can start five new threads..Your division sounds pretty good for some 'chapters'..Like the TBB series, but with all the deaf, dumb and crazy participating and giving input..:) and all ALMOST in real time and interactive...BUT you gotta stay with it, and call some of the old recluses you know for their input..Hell, I hardly 'know' what I know and have proven...:) We could collectively write an exhaustive concordance pertaining to archery and bowyery.. Piece of cake when one considers the data base we have at our fingertips screwups and na'er -do-wells, heroes and successes....:) I include myself in that fraternity, as I have learned from what poor reading was available 30 years ago, and from many trials and 'arrows'..You newcomers have it easy..:)..but I'm rambling again..and need to get my Metamucil and Guiness toddy...and shuffle off to bed... Probably Pat is carefully collecting all the good stuff from these threads and gonna compile the 'best of the LW' one day...:)jim

I like splitting the wood with a wedge. That insures proper grain orientation. No cross graining allowed!For the layout, I use my tillering string. Clamp it on one end. Clamp it on the other. Spring clamps (padded) are great. A nice sharp pencil helps me trace under the tillering string. Gotta wach it here on those twisty, windy staves. Let them twist but you've gotta follow that vertical grain with that center line. Measure the stave's length. Find the center point. 2 inches on either side for a 4 in. handle for a bend in the handle bow. 4 inches on either side for a handle bow. Makes for an 8 in. non bending handle with 2 in dips. Make sure the string falls on the center handle. Leave the stave's handle full width until first stringing. Allows for better string tracking. That's he way I do it. Axe and draw knife bring me to the lines. A stationary belt sander helps me smooth the rough edges. jawge

Jim, keep it up. I've writen the title to this thread so I can reveiw it later. Their is a lot of good information. I'm sure the rest would be pleased.

George I used a clapped string for center line on my last bow. The full width handle idea I'll try and remember.

Good thread..fine input from experienced folks.

Think the most important part of building a bow, for me and I'm no expert, is the layout and "pre" tillering work. If ya do everything right prior to bending the wood.. much, everything else should fall into place hopefully..Layout, jim mentioned masking tape, an invalueable tool can do a layout however many times you need..just take it off an start over...Reading the wood, especially with osage is important, follow the grain at all costs... That dark wood is gonna bend differnt than the rest, an the turns..how will they bend?...so many things...each one is its own problem.... and each stave is different... Experience is the only thing makin a good bowyer. The more time invested in solving the many, many, dificulties presented by the wood we work with determines the chances for sucess on the next one (and our ability to learn from those oppertunities). If we all had perfect wood to work, life would be wonderfull and we all would be experts.

"The only thing that seperates the apprentice from the journeyman is... experience"...Ben Franklin

geo

DRT, Dean's idea is nice. George, good comments. Jawge

One of the things I think important when starting out to make your first few bows is the design. A simple design is best to learn on. I have seen so many threads where people are saying they are making their first or second bow and want to find the homeguard or some other design. Start simple and slowly work up. Because there is so much information today and it comes from so many different skill levels, new people get the impression they have to start with a perry reflex ... bow design beyond skill level can add to list of failures.

...TwoWalks...

"Design and Dimension" for the very individual piece of wood before the bowyer is what it's all about.. You ask too much from the stave and it'll take a set or explode..Ask too little and overbuild it, and it'll last forever..like a giant banana slug in a gardner's nightmare...:) Start with proven designs, NTN lengths appropriate for the draw length, the width and shape..be it mulberry hawthorne, locust, apple, yew, osage, hickory, ash, elm...and your bows will be successes..Go from your successes to bush to the edge of efficiency, understanding the wood, changes in temperature in it's use, In all my years of building hundreds of self bows from over two dozen woods, I've broken six or seven in the process..I started with a tiny fraction of what information is available to the present day traditional self-bowyer..You needn't break a bunch of stuff to learn..Plan the work, work the plan..jim

Here's one of the peripheral skills that I believe is essential to the aspiring bowyer..He must be able to make bowstrings..For those of you who have considered the making of the flemish three-splice bowstring of B-50 or other good material some sort of 'black magic'...:)...Waste no more time...Find someone who knows how to make a good string and learn to make your own strings..Very essential to the bowyer's craft..Buy your finished and fancy strings if you wish, but the tillering string to be used for the bow's work is very necessary..Timber hitch at the bottom, loop at the top, strong and sure for the work as the tillering progresses..It is almost as simple as tying your shoes..Difficult to describe in print, but once seen and practiced, never forgotten..jim

My favorite is a straight limbed flatbow 63-65 in. ntn. Width determined by the wood type. No heat. No steam. I will only steam it to get the string to track on the handle. I will only do that if cutting the nock deeper on 1 side fails to put the string on the handle. No reflex unless the Lord put it there. I let the bow have its individuality. I don't want to break its spirit. I take the stave for what it is. Nothing more and nothing less. I don't try to make it something it is not. Nock taper starts just past mid limb and goes to 1/2 in. nocks for durability. I leave the handle and nocks wide until the end. Easy to make corrections that way. Simple is nice in selfbows. Nice. Jawge

Good advice, Jim. The flemish splice is ifficult it=f not impossible to learn from books. Get a lesson if you can. jawge

I learned to make a flemish splice string from an artical in Archery World magizine back in the 80's. It can be done. It must have been real clear for me to get it. I think it was Archery World.

"As unto the bow the cord is, so is the man to the woman. Though she bends him, she obeys him; though she leads him, yet she follows. Useless each, without the other" ................Longfellow, Song of Hiawatha....using archery to describe the magic between man and woman..( gotta go, the little woman just gave me that 'look'...:)... The last verse..emphasises the 'learn to make the bowstring' advice..3-Rivers sells pretty good instructions, jig-boards, material...For self bowyers, It's time you added this essential craft to your 'toolbox' if you have not yet done so...jim

Flemish string makes itself. That's how I learned it. I fussed over the instructions and pictures in TBB for about 2 days. Finally, in desperation, I took one ply of short string just twisted the daylights out of it. When you put the two ends together, voila, the string twists itself. I took me a while longer to really figure out how to make the string and loops but the basic principal of the twist is all you have to have to start. Darn near impossible to explain in words. Wish I could have watched somebody do it. What the heck, I'm there now.

Thing about making strings and bows is you can almost always find a string to suit your new bow, at least long enough to test shoot. I just came in from shooting a bow the first time. That's an increasingly pleasant experience for me ;). I just held my tillering string up against a bunch of bowstrings I've got hanging in the shop and picked the closest one. Had to twist it down a bunch but I'd rather have a little softer string for breaking in a bow on anyway.

String making is definately an important part of it. There's a lot to be learned about making a good string too, I think. Funny how many areas you can get into to try to perfect a selfbow as whole package. Handles for example. Handle design can really make a difference I think.

What sorta handle do you like to make? There's lots of options, just a straight handle like a classic ELB, a bulbous Torges, a deep pistol grip with a center shot. I'm stuck experimenting with handles right now, just having fun with it.

A handle that fits my hand. Custom made. Rasp and knife'll do it.I even rasp a place for my fingers to fit. I like them thick. 1.25- 1.5 in. Jawge

Good osage, dull draw knife, sharp knife, nicholson rasp, 100----600 grit paper, and thats it.

K.I.S.S

Five minutes of watching Tim Baker make a Flemish Twist string helped me more than hours spent trying to understand instructions.

Then I re-read the instructions and felt REAL stupid for not understanding them!

Several keys to making a good three-splice string is WAX, holds all together while you work.. proper material like B-50, and the following hint as you build the string..I work from left to right.Twist each of the three individual lays AWAY from you, clockwise, and then pull them over toward your body..each in it's order..As a matter of note, the Flemish string had only one loop years ago; the archer used a timber hitch for the lower limb..Still works today, particularly for the work string used when making the bow..jim

I prefer a timberhitch over a double looped string because you can adjust the brace without twisting the string and when you unstring it the bottom loop doesn't always fall off. Seems like on a double loop when you first make it its too small then after shooting for a day you have to keep twisting it up everyday . Darren

I make a 2 ply double loop with B 50. No problems. Soon to use linen. Jawge

Jawge, you are sooo lazy..Chemistry being your fortee, guess you missed the physics classes in HS..:)..Three lays make a more rounded string body, and the three splice is a much better string design....:)...Wait'll you try the Barbour's linen..makes a great and tough bowstring..but please, use at least three lays for the string!!..:)jim

3 what, Jim? Care to rephrase that for the faint hearted? True enough, my friend, and I will try a 3 splice my week off (Christmas week) on that elm bow from the stave DRT gave me with linen. Jawge

Give it hell Jawge. If I remember it has a " little " reflex in it. Darren

Jawge..."Faint hearted?" I never considered you as such, who have made bows of boards of red oak...:)..That achievement is above my talent or prowess...( or desires)...:).... as for the "3"...surely you jest?... For a fifteen strand flemish twist string, each of the three 'lays' will be five strands..ends suitable tapered 1/4" so that they a nice and gradual transition back into the body of the string after making the 'little rope' for the nock loop..Three go together better to make a circle than two...for a rounded bowstring... ( and please don't diverge and take this as as my avocation of the menage a trois)..jim

Jim your wife been spiking your Geritol with Viagra lately ? Darren

Darren, my proven tonic is Metamucil in a shot-glass solution, with quadruple parts of Guiness Stout, at 42 F...:)..Repeat until unconscious or on the commode... Don't need the 'V' thang yet...My wife is fond of saying.." Once a King, always a King...but once a Knight is enough"..:) jim

Alas, DRT, the reflex is gone. Not I, Jim. I am not faint hearted. 3? No longer, I'm afraid. jawge

You'll find out! Jawge

Nope; not yet, DRT. Jawge

TTT for Ap Archer

I have done this a few times before on here. I still like to search out old threads on here. And sometimes re post them. Here is another oldie but goodie. Hmmm... Learn how to make a bow string first. Before you start building self bows. Could come in handy. Do all you self bow guys build your own strings?

99% of the serious builders I know make their own strings. I knew how well before I started making self bows. I think I may have bought 2 or back in the mid 90s and got real tired of paying for them. So I learned.

Bulldog tenacity and the innocence of a child

Do you use a string Jig? Like the one sold at Three Rivers Archery?

I do, but I made mine and had to calibrate it the hard way. This was done pre-internet. So I saw a picture of a jig, made one that looked like it and then made a few strings to figure how what peg made what length. I'm the cheapest German you never met :). I make anything and everything I can.

I like looking up old selfbow threads on here too. It brings back good memories, and there was a LOT more selfbow discussion on here back then, and this place was bulging at the seams with selfbow talent and experimentation... and a few good arguments ;^)

I already knew how to make my own strings when I started making selfbows. Like Chris, I made my own string jig, and then figured out which pegs worked for which bow lengths... for selfbows, longbows, recurves, etc.

I've made strings without a jig. Just pound a couple of nails in the wall a certain distance apart and loop the bowstring around them. Cut the strands at the nails, stagger the ends, and twist it up.

My goodness. That was so long ago. So many dear friends I've mad on the LW. I'm still here. Thank God. Jawge

Great stuff !!!!!!

DCM (David Mims) was a friend of mine and an excellent self bow-builder. Hate that he is gone.

I have had a hickory stave he gave me for helping him harvest Osage at his farm many years ago. I am mot sure what to do with the stave since my skills are so limited, I'd the to ruin this special piece of wood.

And yes, the Leatherwall used have a lot more self bow discussions. Anyway, just checking in, I saw DCM's words and thought about him.

I used to ask Dire wolf and Fred Arnold a lot of my self bow questions. Both of those guys were very helpful to me. Sure would of liked to watch both of those guys make a bow from start to finish.

I miss David as well Kurt. before David passed he shipped off staves to several of us on here. He was a selfless guy

Kurt you should take that stave to the Classic. You will have all the help and info you could ever ask for. Make a special bow from a special stave.

The most difficult thing to obtain is the knowledge of the craft. Like anything worth doing, I'm sure it takes much trial and error before you know where to give and take and how to choose the proper option in solving problems. HoThe learning curve can be helped greatly by having a good mentor.

Do you teach classes? Have you thought about taking on apprentices?

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