I recently posted a thread titled “33# and 330gr”. That got me thinking about whether draw weight or arrow speed is better indicator of a bow’s effectiveness for hunting. My 33@28 BW shoots a 330gr arrow 165-167 fps at my 27” draw length. A Hill style longbow or a self bow might shoot the same arrow slower even if it has a heavier draw weight. An ACS would probably shoot the same arrow at my draw length 10-15 fps faster. A self bow would probably be even slower than my BW. I’m sure there have been a few people out there who have performed similar tests. My 33@28 BW with a 330gr arrow is over 10grpp at my draw length. Has anyone reading this done any testing to compare different types of bows with an arrow weighing 10grpp or more?

Arrow speed is the end result of the amount of energy that is applied to the arrow regardless of the draw weight.

Folks have, but anecdotal, not comprehensive. Generally, with the same grains of arrow weight per pounds of bow weight, bows of similar design will shoot about the same speed, regardless of bow weight However, design is a big factor. Some bows designs are just more efficient than others, i.e., they're faster, shooting the same gpp.

Speed is good, IMO, but not at the expense of too light arrow weight. A ping pong ball hitting your windshield at 65 mph will probably bounce off, not so a stone of the same size.

If you watch utube videos of wheelie shooters, you'll notice that they often get very poor penetration on large animals like elk. They're shooting very fast arrows, often times twice as fast as stick bow shooters. But they're also shooting very light arrows and often expanding heads. Most of the arrow's energy is used at impact to open the head. Not much penetration after that.

Orion, I had an A&H ACS a few years ago that was very quick. I bet it would have shot over 15fps faster than my current BW with the same weight arrow.

It's my thinking that an arrow doesn't know what it is shot out of. All that matters is enough speed with adequate arrow weight. Of course, you need to consider tune and acceptable trajectory, etc., and a few other factors of course.

If you do the energy foot pounds formula all other things being equal mass wins . Not by a lot though. I have tested a lot of 32 lb. bows at my draw weight with a 375 gr arrow. All shot in the low 150's.Target shooting. If I would hunt white tail with one of those bows I would shoot no less than a 400 gr arrow.

I'm going to sound a little old fashioned and say that 330 gr arrow is too light for hunting anything of any size like a deer or antelope. I base this on my past as I used to hunt with a compound using a 440 gr arrow at around 270fps. I will tell you that I had very few pass through shots on deer, antelope or turkey's. I killed animals but hardly ever did the arrow completely exit the animal. Then I switched to hunting with a 50lb recurve and using a 500 gr arrow. If I remember correctly I think the first five deer I killed with that bow were complete pass throughs with good blood trails. So to me your slow 330 gr arrow is good for small game like rabbits or squirrels. For me to think about hunting deer sized animals at the slow speeds our bows produce I would need at least 440 gr and hopefully about 10-15 fps faster than than your getting now. As for target and small game I'd say go for it, but not bigger game animals. If you are thinking of hunting with that weight try a heavier arrow and see what the trajectory difference is at around 15 yards? I don't think it the extra weight will effect it as much as you think. I told you I was going to sound old fashioned. :)

"Arrow speed is the end result of the amount of energy that is applied to the arrow regardless of the draw weight"

Yep, it's not about the bow but the arrow, the projectile is what is doing the penetration...

Due to some of the more modern developments in longbow and recurve design draw weight is becoMing a less than reliable indicator of performance.

As the OP stated, his ACS was by his estimation 15 fps. faster than his current bow shooting the same arrow. That equates to shooting a bow 12-15 lbs. heavier in draw weight. That being the case think how much faster that same bow would shoot the arrow than a straight end longbow, a self bow, etc.

And while momentum is important a 500 gr. arrow traveling 175fps. from a 50lb. bow is going to produce more momentum than the same arrow traveling 150 fps. from a straight end Longbow.

RayJ, I have done a fair amount of shooting with a chrono. My draw is just a touch over 27, and I mark my arrows to make sure I do not do something funky in draw before release. As others have said. Bows of similar design and materials all seem to shoot within a few FPS of each other given the same GPP of arrow weight. Draw length, draw weight, materials, designs.... The list can go on but back to the facts. At a certain draw length and weight the design of the bow only has so much energy available. The main difference we seem to get held up on is the available kinetic energy, which heavily favors speed, or Momentum which favors mass. In those two different measurements you get the real answer.

-Bones

From my very limited understanding. Brace Height also play a roll in how fast an arrow is. That with a higher brace height, the arrow stay on the string shorter then a low brace height setting. Example, the same bow tuned for 7in BH and 8in BH will produce different arrow speeds due to that extra inch of energy being transferred to the arrow. But that extra speed come at a cost of forgiveness and other aspects.

Yeah HuumanCreed, that was my understanding too... I think it was in one of Asbell's books he said to have the lowest brace just above felt hand shock to receive the best performance...

Bow weight shouldn’t be in the equation, FPS x arrow weight is all that matters.

I understand that, in theory, a lower brace height should offer improved performance but it seems to me that is a tiny improvement that would only be seen by shooting through a chronograph. We aren't talking about inches different in brace height, in most cases it's a half inch or less, seldom reaching one inch. It's quite likely that inconsistent form or a poor release could influence the speed more than the brace height difference.

I like to find a happy medium between speed and arrow weight. Most of the time I use an arrow weight that is 9 to 10 grains per pound of bow weight.

“If you do the energy foot pounds formula all other things being equal mass wins . Not by a lot though.”

But if you do the momentum calculation, Mass wins… in a WALK.

So any given bow has better potential for lethality with a heavier arrow…. Right up to the point where you start missing because your trajectory is too loopy to hit with.

Really, the draw weight on a bow only tells you whether a given archer will be able to pull it or not; that’s the power Input. If you want to know if you can hunt with it, you need to know the Output.

Rayj. Yes. That's my point. Bows of the same design will shoot relatively close together, given the same gpp arrow, but you're talking two different designs, one is more efficient than the other.

That's among the observations the op was offering, and thus suggesting that arrow speed is a better indicator of performance (arrow speed/penetration) than bow weight. I agree with that as long as arrow weight doesn't become too light. Without arrow weight in the equation, arrow speed alone can be misleading.

Oops. You're the op.

'Without arrow weight in the equation, arrow speed alone can be misleading.'....yep....

Great discussion. I’ve seen it mentioned that my 330 gr arrow is too light for deer and I need 400gr or more. Will 70gr really make that much of a difference. I plugged some numbers in a KE calculator and my 330 arrow going 165fps will have very similar KE as an arrow 500gr going 135fps. The heavy arrow would drop like a rock. I tried an arrow weighing almost 500gr out of my 33# bow and the trajectory was unacceptable for my tastes.

Great discussion. I’ve seen it mentioned that my 330 gr arrow is too light for deer and I need 400gr or more. Will 70gr really make that much of a difference. I plugged some numbers in a KE calculator and my 330 arrow going 165fps will have very similar KE as an arrow 500gr going 135fps. The heavy arrow would drop like a rock. I tried an arrow weighing almost 500gr out of my 33# bow and the trajectory was unacceptable for my tastes.

You wouldn't have to go to a 500 grain arrow. That's about 19 gpp at your draw length. I shoot arrows in the 11-12 gpp range most of the time, but have stepped up to 14 gpp for larger critters like elk. At those weights, i don't find much difference in drop at 15 yards. Becomes more prominent at 20 yards, and drops fairly substantially after that.

You might experiment a little with different heavier arrow weights to find a heavier weight that also satisfies your trajectory need. I'm sure you're heard the phrase, "shoot as much bow as you can comfortably handle." In this case, it might be, "shoot as much arrow as you can tolerate." Good luck.

Sounds like ballistics...

In a sense, yes ballistics. But not with a coefficient for the amount of foot pounds a projectile exerts when it expands like a bullet. That is, the amount of energy directly transferred from the projectile into the target upon impact. After further reading the thread, I sort of agree. Almost. I am by no means a physicist, or engineer. But there is a law of diminishing returns. For the OP a 33# bow will only create so much available energy. I believe there is NO discrepancy there, and when shot accurately with a well tuned arrow can be very lethal. What I don't like is the quick solution of heavier is better for arrow weight. If the thought that the heavier arrow is ALWAYS more lethal, than you would be able to shoot a ship anchor out of a 5# draw weight bow and make it work. I know that is an extreme example, but it gets the point. Not only do you pass a thresh hold at some grain weight, but you also give up a LOT of trajectory as RayJ stated, " The heavy arrow would drop like a rock."

Maybe you do gain SOME momentum by adding mass but that mass adversely affects the speed. Which is visibly seen by the trajectory. It's not all about either, speed nor mass. It is about the balance. What is that midpoint 8,9,15 grains per pound of draw weight?? That is all in the mind and hands of the shooter. I highly dislike the 15 grains per pound idea out of a 45 lb bow. BUT that is my opinion. Other's will say they have made that combination work. I don't mind that same arrow weight out of a 60ish pound bow, but now we are back close to 10GPP. RayJ I do hope you have found some useful information in the thread. I think there is always something to glean. :-)

-Bones

fdp, there isn’t much difference in KE or momentum between a 330gr arrow and a 400gr arrow. A little more momentum but I’m not sure it’s enough to sacrifice trajectory. I haven’t decided yet on a hunting arrow for sure. I do know that I love how these 330gr arrows are flying. I will definitely shoot them most of the time, especially for 3D. They are over 10grpp. It wouldn’t be hard to cut an inch off the shaft and put a 175gr BH on a few arrows just for hunting. Anyway, I appreciate the input and the charts.

I personally like 10-11 gpp from my 63-67# bows. 12-13 gpp starts to slow things down. Even with my 71# longbow I like to stay just under 13 gpp.

If you’re shooting 3D and target and not hunting with that setup, go lighter and flatter shooting.

From my experience, there is A LOT to be said about arrow set-up and extreme FOC.

To answer the question the OP asked- - have I tested different bows w arrows 10gpp or more--- yes. My testing has been imited to r/d longbows compared to recurves. The The Toelke Chinook gave me the highest boost in speed over the r/d longbow which was 8fps if I remember correctly. But I prefer the r/d longbows and just shoot them better. I'm not after speed and often adjust my arrow weight to be on the heavier side as I find they shoot where I'm looking out to 25 yds--- I have to stack at 30 yds, but we rarely have targets that far at our 3 d shoots. Most of the points are picked up between 17-22 yds. Shoot me a pm if I can provide more detail on what Ive found trajectory -wise w different weight arrows.

"Bow weight shouldn’t be in the equation, FPS x arrow weight is all that matters."

That's really the crux of it.

An overlooked aspect of penetration is resistance at the point of impact. Higher resistance equals less penetration and resistance increases somewhat exponentially as speed increases.

I have chronoed every bow I have rver owned. I only have one bow at any given time that I shoot. My current bow is a 33@28 BW PCH as I have said. Over the years I have owned many different bows. At my 27” draw and an arrow from 9-11grpp, I shoot in the 150’s to low 170’s depending on arrow weight and bow design. I had an A&H ACS that was the fastest bow I ever owned and I actually couldn’t shoot it well so I didn’t have it long. I’ve tried various longbows over the years and most of them were a little slower than my BW’s. I always ended up back to shooting a BW recurve. I just shoot them better. They are smooth on the draw. I’ve had several R/D longbows that had a harsh draw cycle that I didn’t like. I think my eyes and mind have adjusted to an arrow speed in the mid to high 160’s and anything outside of that range, high or low, is difficult for me to adjust to. That’s why I’m really hoping that my 330gr arrow going 165fps will be adequate for whitetail.

Ray. Guess you'll just have to try it and see how it works. Your arrow is on the light side, but Texas deer aren't very big either. Stick with broadside shots at fairly close range and I think you'll be fine.

RayJ, just one last thought on your set-up. IF you have the availability I would suggest trying to hunt some pigs through the warm months with that combination. Try to avoid shots into the "shield" (it absolutely does exist on larger boar hogs), but gestimate some in the 100-150 lb range and shoot them just a touch back from what you would a whitetail. Providing the arrow/broadhead combination works there I would have little hesitation on our whitetail deer. Of course shot placement is the most critical, and depending on what you contact coming in and going out will most likely be the biggest concern with a 33# bow. If I missed it, I apologize, but what broadhead are you planning on shooting with the 330 grain arrows?

-Bones

Just thinking about your setup and in my opinion, along with and as important as arrow selection, I would recommend this approach to gain power stroke. First, lower your brace as much as you’re comfortable with, then lower it more and get comfortable with it. Second, look at your physical stature as it relates to your shooting style; try high wrist, head back, shooting inside the bow style to gain draw length. As far as power stroke is concerned it can be stated that one can never have too much of a good thing.

"I recently posted a thread titled “33# and 330gr”

I would say my target is 45# and 600gr. Better at 52# and 620 gr . . . but that is splitting hairs.

I started a similar thread not too terribly long ago. I wish we could talk in facts…arrow weight and arrow speed, not hypothetical potential like bow weight…but a lot of folks seem to get their underwear in a bunch when you mention speed. It would be nice if folks could tell us arrow weight/speed and on what they were successful…so we could all draw conclusions from that experience.

B.T. x 3

It's confounding that Fish and Game (or whatever regulatory body governs hunting) typically use "Bow weight minimums."

As if we're going to shrink arrow lethality into one variable.

I personally feel that 330gr is not even remotely heavy enough to hunt with. Those is just opinion but I feel that you owe it to the animal you are chasing to shoot the heaviest bow and arrow setup you can comfortably shoot well. Speed doesn't kill when the shot is placed in a marginal kill zone on game. If you were to take a shot and catch a shoulder you would definitely lose and injure the animal. Not for nothing it kills me to even see that the average bow being shot by young men and the average 40/43# with hardly a 500gr arrow. People worry more about speed then energy energy is what saves your hide on a shot turned shatty. My wife worked up from 35# to 40# in less then 3 weeks and she's a petite little thing. There's no reason that any healthy young to middle aged male shouldn't be shooting at least 50# with at a minimum of a 575gr arrow for hunting. You owe it to the game you chase. This is just my opinion no need to try to beat me up and take my lunch money

"There's no reason that any healthy young to middle aged male shouldn't be shooting at least 50# with at a minimum of a 575gr arrow for hunting."

Healthy being the key word.

“It's confounding that Fish and Game (or whatever regulatory body governs hunting) typically use ‘Bow weight minimums.’"

Do you really want your hunting license revenue going toward equipping every CO with a chronograph?

Do you really want to have to buy your own chronograph to be certain that your hunting set-up is legal?

Or does it make more sense to make some reasonable assumptions as to typical bow performance and let poundage serve as an easily verified stand-in? It’s like legal shooting hours; if you want to regulate something by drawing a line in the sand, you have to be able to specify how & where the line gets drawn.

DWolfe,I’m 60 years old and have had three shoulder surgeries and need another in both shoulders. Considering the damage I have in my shoulders, I can still do over 200 pushups several times a week, but shooting a bow is totally different. I can draw a heavier weight but I don’t think it’s good for my shoulders at all. For some reason, drawing a bow is something that I’m weak in and my torn rotator cuffs just won’t allow me to shoot even a 40lb bow for very many arrows. By going to a low draw weight, I’m hoping to keep shooting as long as possible without more surgeries. I appreciate your input even if you think I’m not hunting ethically. You have a right to your opinion.

I'm sorry Ray that's why I put that the word healthy. I've had multiple shoulder surgeries myself(ice climbing/ baseball)and they are definitely a hindrance. It took a lot of work to get back to shooting 54# and I was fortunate enough to be able to do it. I just see these light Bows and it brings me back to when my shoulder was bad and I was shooting 40# and 450gr arrow. I took a shot the deer turned a funky way and I got initially 5-6" penetration. She went 300 yards. When I found her the broadhead was sticking out her back strap and if it wasn't for a light dusting of snow I'd of never found her. Thankfully when she took off she jammed the arrow further in. I feel that almost certainly the circumstances would have been different if I had shot her with the my normal setup 54# and 705gr arrow moving 159fps. Honestly if it were a perfect world and we made perfect shots you could probably get away with 30# and 300gr of arrows. we're all different I used to be able to do push ups and pull ups cold out the gate like you but just reading that makes my shoulder scream. Best of luck on your journey.

Mr. Hamilton - I don't have a good answer... I'm in problem admiration mode. But to suggest that every 45# set up is the same is laughable. For e.g. a SuperCurve pulled to 30" vs. a 45# self- bow pulled to 26" are treated identically.

I guess if pressed - because I don't feel like the current rules are helpful at all... I'd prefer deregulation. I can't find any study that "draw weight minimums" have resulted in positive outcomes. Happy to learn if you could show me one.

Jar

How in the world do you do 200 push ups and can’t pull a 33# bow is beyond me

GutpilePa, that’s a valid question. I dropped from 44-41-33. I could draw the heavier bows but couldn’t hold them to shoot accurately. I was shooting very few arrows because my form broke down very quickly. I can do quite a bit considering my damage but There are limits.

I’m sitting in the clinic right now waiting to be seen. I might be doing something about this sooner than I anticipated.

@Jar —

I am routinely among the first to caution that All Bows Are Not Created Equal and that draw weight alone is a poor substitute for knowing the output of a rig, but since I am not opposed to all forms of Regulation, I do prefer having Regs which can be enforced fairly and reasonably. And since draw weight minimums came to be LOOOONG before a chronograph was something that the public had any access to, allowing a CO to refer to the draw weight marked on the bow seems Fair & Effective.

I don’t know where the minimum numbers came from; it’s at least plausible to me that some states settled on a weight which ensures that Pittman-Robertson revenue would be collected on all tackle used for hunting. Could be that it was thought Unsportsmanlike to use a bow so light that it could be held at full draw for an extended period of time because it was too much like a crossbow. Could have been an effort to prevent some people from Party Hunting on tags purchased in the names of individuals who could be outfitted for a pittance with toys. Could be pure window dressing to make it look like the state was paying some amount of attention to ensuring a quick & humane kill. Might even have been a rare emergence of a little common sense?

I’m not certain about any of that, but one thing I AM pretty sure of is that behind every seemingly ridiculous regulation is a poacher who got off on a technicality….

Another thing I’m sure of is that if you don’t understand how push-ups could be easy/comfortable for someone who can only draw a lightweight bow, you don’t know much about Anatomy or shoulder injuries or maybe even the difference between a Push and a Pull.

That said… Who Cares if your form only holds up for a dozen shots on the target line with a bow with which you’re probably only going use to take one or maybe a half dozen shots in the course of a full day? If you can’t reach your anchor without a warm- up session, that’s too heavy, but if your first shot of the day is Money, you won’t need a second.

As to the deer with the arrow exiting through the backstrap, I might surmise that it’s possible that a lighter, faster arrow would have had a better chance of exiting in a more conventional spot if the deer had had less time to drop away from the shooter. Because unless the arrow was bent or broken, it probably went straight through the animal from A to B. I don’t know anyone here who would disagree that there is no guarantee that an animal won’t move while your arrow is in flight…

There’s a guy who used to post here who reports taking over 40 Elk with his bows; his partner has been similarly successful, and he has guided many clients to success. In his estimation, 450 grains is comfortably above Adequate for Elk. And that’s not too shocking if you figure that’s #50 at 9 GPP, which Fred Bear said was the golden rule. Fred Asbell said that any decent bow of #50 shooting 10 GPP would kill anything at all in North America. Rick Barbee has done vastly more testing than 98% of the bowhunting population and he is a fan of 9 GPP or so as Optimal for penetration. So I don’t know where people got the idea that 450-500 grains is “too light” for deer hunting; I do suspect a lack of familiarity with the Law Of Diminishing Returns…..

Corax X 2, 40# @ 28", 20-25 yard shot, 9 gpp. single bevel broadhead, 187 FPS, complete pass through, double lung, like shooting through an empty cardboard box. That is a big deer where I hunt and after field dressing. Never moved till after the shot.

This is just my two cents, but I think people make this traditional archery much more complicated than it really is, look at all the animals fred bear shot do you really think he worried about gpp or fps I doubt it.

Thumb bow Fred SAID that he had a particular grains per pound that he preferred. Among other things.

Bones, I’m shooting a 125gr Simmons Shark. A pretty small head. The BH actually weighs about 132. So, I’m now shooting 145gr fp and I added three 5gr washer weights to the BH. Total arrow weight now is 447, almost 450. They fly great but I might could cut a little off the shaft to fine tune.

Bones, I’m shooting a 125gr Simmons Shark. A pretty small head. The BH actually weighs about 132. So, I’m now shooting 145gr fp and I added three 5gr washer weights to the BH. Total arrow weight now is 447, almost 450. They fly great but I might could cut a little off the shaft to fine tune.

Corax_latrans, great post. You are correct about pushups and drawing a bow. They are two different things. I can do quite a bit considering that I need a total reverse shoulder replacement on my right shoulder and just has an MRI ordered on my left today. Pushups are something that I have done for over 30 years. I think they help me overall. I’m weak when drawing a bow. I can draw a much heavier bow back but can’t control it to shoot accurately and also would be hurting after just a few shots. I had 41lb limbs on my bow just a month ago or a little longer. I could only shoot a few arrows in a session and I just couldn’t shoot it comfortably. These new 33# limbs have been a lifesaver to keep me shooting. It’s fun again. I’m just trying to find a reasonable arrow to hunt with.

Your absolutely right Thumb bow7 it’s called simplicity for a reason

I think some of you guys need to go back and read Fred's thoughts on arrow weight, fletching orientation, and what he described as the "quickness" of a bows return from full draw to brace.....ain't nothin' here that hasn't been discussed for nearly 100 years by Hill, Bear, Nagler, Hickman, Klopsteg and a host of others.

I posted the following casual "test" on a different forum last year. I now own Border and Morrison Super Curves. I've kept three "conventional" recurves for nostalgic reasons. -----

Earlier this year I ordered and received a new Black Widow PAX with the carbon limbs. I love these one piece widows! I was advised not to expect a big increase in anything other than limb twist resistance with the new Widow so I wasn't expecting a fireball. It is 58" and 43#s@ my 26" draw. It is a couple FPS faster than my other conventional bows of similar draw weight.

I bought a used Border Covert Hunter 19" riser used and received new CV5 shorts limbs at 37# yesterday. I feared the limbs would be too light in terms of arrow momentum. All my recurve hunting since the late 60's has been done with 40-46 pound bows (at my 26" draw). So, I'm comfortable with the effectiveness of those rigs, but would never have dreamed of shooting less.

I used ProChrnoy and 1st Chance digital bow scale.

-Widow: 43# @26 - Arrow weight 445 grains - FPS 157

-Border: 36#26" - Same Arrow 445 grains - FPS 156

This blows my mind! Basically, the highest tech Widow is matched by a Border that is 7 pounds lighter in draw weight!

I'm going to get 5 pound heavier limbs for the Border when I can swing another $975 (yikes!).

The Covert with these CV5 limbs is a pure joy to draw and shoot. I have the BH at 7.25" and one set of whiskers on it. As quiet or more so than any of my other silenced conventional recurves. After shooting these two bows this morning I can readily feel the unpleasant build of draw weight in the Widow at full draw as opposed to the decline in increasing draw weight of the Border. This is not meant as a slam against Widows (I[ve owned 3-4) or any other conventional recurve, it is just my brief experience comparing a Super Curve to conventional.

Folks, I'm pretty new to Border but very familiar (having owned most) with most other custom recurves on the market. Nothing I've shot compares.

I test shoot every bow I own through my chrono. I’ve tested 60+ vintage and new bears from my collection, a new Black Widow PMAX, several Bob lees and several predators and Great Plains. Most bows on average are in the 160-170 FPS range for 45-50#. That’s @28” every time, with a 490 grain arrow. All testing is done with the same carbon arrow which is marked at 28”. A few bows I have tested that were close to 60# have been in the 190 range. Vintage bears range from 150-170 with exception the 1967-1/2 super Kodiak. That one shoots 178 @46#. I hear people claiming 180-200 FPS all the time, but after all the bows I have tested, I have had nothing come close to 200FPS. FYI- I do this testing just for fun and knowledge to see how bows perform, obviously speed doesn’t matter. It’s just a hobby

I’m with Bearman, rare is the bow in my experience that shoots over 170 with anything over 9 grain pers pound.

“ look at all the animals fred bear shot do you really think he worried about gpp or fps I doubt it.”

You’d be wrong. Fred Bear went to considerable effort to determine that 9GPP was about optimal for extracting performance from a bow, and if you don’t think he cared about arrow velocity, you must be operating under the assumption that he wasn’t really interested in selling bows…..

More than just a bow or arrow for speed, like skinny string and low BH, just to name a few.

x's 2 Bearman

Other than having a well tuned setup, and ample energy from the bow, nothing matters more than the "combination" of arrow seed & weight.

Once the arrow leaves the bow it's all about the arrow.

There are bell curves where arrow speed, and weight come together for optimal performance from any bow.

Old Fred had it right - from 9 to 10 gpp, or anywhere in between.

If you want more delivered energy than that gives you, then there's only one way to get it, and that is to go to a more efficient bow while still observing those same arrow parameters.

Rick

Fred Bear on Arrows

Your next heading here is “arrows and broadheads.” I draw 28 inches, and my arrows are 29 inches with either the blunt field point or the broadhead attached to it, so in the case of the broadhead, I have an inch to the back of the head at my full draw length.

I am not concerned about whether my feathers are left- or right- handed, but I do like a helical fletch and I like a very large feather. I’ve never shot other than three-fletch arrows. I’m sure four-fletch has advantages. I think that they can be cut lower and stand up under wet weather probably better than three-fletch, although I’ve never used them. My fletching is 5 inches long and begins 1 1/4 inches from the very end of the nock. They are spirally fletched so that the shaft revolves in flight. Never use straight fletching on hunting arrows.

I have no particular color preference on fletching, except that I’m often making a film in which it is very important in having the camera follow the flight of the arrow. For this reason I have used rather bright-colored feathers—white and yellows, maybe with a black cock feather for a contrast, and, for some reason, my arrows are never camouflaged. The last three years I’ve been using Converta-Point Magnum® arrows, of course, and they are aluminum. This is a handicap in the woods, there’s no question about it, but it’s one of the things you have to put up with when you are in the filming business. (Author’s note: These were the “new” arrows we had introduced in our 1968 Bear Archery catalog.

A special insert was designed for use with broadheads, and there were blunt, field and target points as a part of this new system, so that the archer could use the same arrow shaft and simply interchange the points for practice, hunting or field use. The shafts were especially made for us by Easton. Fred came up with this system and filed for the patent on Nov. 2, 1966, and the patent #3,401,938 was granted on Sept. 17, 1968.)

I do not use any preparation on the feathers to keep them dry. I use a plastic bag pulled over the arrows when they are in the bow quiver and held in place with a rubber band. This, of course, sometimes is a handicap, also, because if you are surprised by game it’s pretty difficult to pull this bag off without making a little rattling sound, but I’ve never found a waterproof fletching material that stood up under very much rain. (Author’s note: This was written before we introduced our Weathers®, all- weather plastic fletching material, but Fred continued to use real feathers even after we had done so.) Naturally, I don’t fletch my own arrows, and I use the Razorhead® (the Bear Razorhead, if you’ll permit me), and I always use the insert even in shooting an elephant … and there’s a reason for this. The insert opens up an “X” hole and gives better penetration because it relieves pinching on the shaft and leaves a better blood trail. I use a Razorhead® with the insert for all kinds of game. Makes no difference the weight of the bow or the size of the game.

As I said before, I like an arrow that is nine times my bow weight in grains. Penetration is a matter of kinetic energy, and it is a well-known fact that a heavy object moving at the same speed is much harder to stop than a lighter one. There’s another factor in the case of an arrow. A given bow has a certain, I’ll call it “quickness,” of return to the string from a full-draw position. A heavy bow can handle a heavier arrow with a great deal more striking energy.

Some of these posts... I like the one about 50# and 57r grain arrows. Or the one about being a rare bow that shoots a 9 gpp arrow over 170.. Hmmm... I've got a 46# Border that shoots 424 grain arrows at over 209 fps, at 20 yards!! My Bear 47# limbs shoots the same arrow at 198 fps, at 20 yards. I stopped shooting 57# recurves in 2015, dropped to 46# sticks and 48# longbows, and I've never been happier.

It's not just about bow weight, arrow weight and arrow speed. Like Rick said, once the arrow clears the bow, it's all about the arrow/broadhead. And that's why, since shooting lower weight bows, I went to the 3:1 ratio heads, with unbelievable penetration. I'm not going to try to push a broadhead that is 1 1/4" wide and 1 1/4" long. It's all about penetration. And wider broadheads will decrease my penetration. It shows when we play with target mediums here at the shop.

I think some guys have inaccurate chrono graphs and that causes a lot of confusion. I hear guys say their bear bows shoot 190-200 but after the 60+ I have need and tested that’s still 20-30fps than any of them. Most guys will Find with their set ups they will be between 160-170 average for 45-50# for 9-10 GPP.

Has it occurred to you that maybe it is YOUR chronograph which is off?

But you can’t compare even two perfectly calibrated chronographs on an apples-to- apples basis unless the total load on the limb is equal… But if your light string + heavy arrow and your heavy string + light arrow give you the same Arrow FPS, your GPP number will make it look like the second bow is “slower”….

That’s the funny thing about Apples to Apples… there’s lots of apples in this world…

Buglmin whats your go to broadhead?

Dakota I have seen plenty videos of wheelie guys NOT getting much penetration on their shots. MY guess is they were using POS collapsible broad heads on very light (more speed) arrows. WHY? Easy and fly straight/less tuning? Because it's too easy too sight the contraption (then hang it up till next season) and not tune it to REAL broadheads AND SHARPEN them for hunting. Sharpness of a broadhead is absolutely critical to hunting and too many guys will say "They were razor sharp three years ago when I bought them". COC means "Cut On Contact!" not Collapse on Contact. Yes, I know they have killed lots of animals but give me a sharp blade that won't fail under trial.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this opinion.

All I know;

Put a very efficient 2 blade BH on an arrow with perfect flight and its a penetrating monster.

I blew 2 arrows through an 800# moose at 30y with a 46# recurve…and deer with a 40# recurve…... those arrows hardly slowed down.

The arrow weight debate is silly without considering the BH.

At 30 fps I wouldn't want to be in front of either these honed to hair popping sharpness.

Beendare X 2

"Please correct me if I'm wrong on this opinion."....you are wrong. The main reason that so many of the compound guys use expandables is because that is what is trendy and that's what they see the folks they pay attention to using.

It isn't a bit different than "traditional" archers doing the same thing when it comes to shooting style, aiming method, broadhead selection, hottest custom bow and on and on. You can tune a recurve or longbow to a particular arrow combination, hang it up, take it down next year and if you have any kind of consistency in a shooting sequence at all be back on point at hunting ranges in just a few shots. As for REAL broadheads there are a bunch of good ones that are sharp out of the package, and as for sharpening there are likely folks on this site that shouldn't be hunting with the broadheads they are sharpening.

Modern compounds have such a huge range of adjustment that anyone with even rudimentary bow tuning skills could tune their bow to shoot any arrow they want to shoot.

Best for "traditional" archers to not get too full of themselves.

Buglmin, a Border isn't exactly a "normal" bow, hence my "rare" comment...but I still think our chronographs must read very differently. I'm 100 percent with you on bow weight and broadhead efficiency

“Best for “traditional “ archers to not get too full of themselves.”

Record and play back at least once a day.

I like Bob’s “collapsible” broadheads…. ROFL and he’s Not Wrong.

As far as tuning a Contraption…. I will just say that I did not find it challenging to walk- back tune a fairly modern compound to get Stingers and FPS to group tight enough to put fletchings at risk out to about 45 yards….. Maybe it was just those insanely heavy 7 GPP arrows….. ;p

"Best for traditional archers not to get too full of themselves" That should be on a tee shirt.

draw weight or arrow speed?? The heavier draw weight makes for a better, crisper, straight release, which results in a better hit within reason of course. imho

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