With all the hurrah about #35 bows for bears and the fact that some states have minimum poundage requirements that really don’t mean anything (consider, if you will, a self-bow versus a high-performance compound) where others have none and others still seem kind of on the high side (here in CT, a legal minimum is #40)....

So I am posing this question for the sake of philosophical debate…

WHAT IF - instead of a minimum poundage requirement - the various states were to simply declare hat a Legal Hunting Arrow must be 450 grains or heavier.

I gotta tell ya.... I’ve thought this through from low- poundage stickbows to high-end compounds, and I’m not seeing a lot not to like.....

Hmmmm

No, I think some of this changing is at the behest of the Crossbow industry. We used to have 40 lb min for deer and 50 lb min for elk. All first time archers needed to have Bowhunter education courses completed. This is in South Dakota. First, the commission voted out the Bowhunter education requirement as you can get that online. You can learn to shoot guns online too but I still believe a little education wouldnt hurt. If you dont have the time to take the course, you certainly will not have enough time to properly bowhunt. Next, they lowered the weight to 30 lbs. That one probably didnt have anything to do with crossbows but then they eliminated the minimum arrow length. I feel that was definitely for crossbows. We have archery requirements that indicate you cannot use optical sights on your bow. I sent an email asking if this applied to the scoped crossbows as well? I have not received an answer. Now, back to your point. I think a minimum arrow weight would be great. They would complain that the CO's cant weigh everyones arrow weight or draw poundage.

Who is the dynamic energy guru?

No need for either type of rule. People know what works or soon figure it out without a rule or law required. If there is suddenly a wide spread issue related to people running around with toy bows hunting big game we could revisit the issue.

So I can not get my 35# bow back! but can still shoot my 30# with 450GR. see where this will go..

And what about the genius who shoots a 45 pound bow with a 500 grain arrow with a broadhead dull as a butter knife?

Always hard to legislate common sense.

I hear ya, JP, but you can’t measure Sharp.

I have to figure that a #30 bow at 15 GPP is self-limited to short range. Trajectory issues. But short range... better accuracy... better placement... belter outcome.

#45@10 GPP makes sense. #50 @ 9 GPP makes sense. Even #60’ @ 7.5 GPP makes some kind o’ sense, because if 450 is good enough at 10 GPP velocity, it oughtta be fine going a good chunk faster....

But 450 gr out of a #65 compound is pushing 7GPP, at which point I think a lot of compound shooters need a rangefinder - and 2 pins, if not 3 - between 25 & 35 yards. Kinda levels the playing field a bit....

40 lb at what draw?

If you’re asking about CT, it’s just #40. No mention of DL anywhere in the regs.

The hope behind regulating based on projectile weight is simply that people will learn (through practice) how long a shot they can afford to take and still be confident of hitting the 10 ring. Low poundage; short distance, enhanced efficiency from the bow in question.

It all seems to work out pretty well. And it does impose a bit of a speed limit on the Wheelies....

Sorry, but no matter what number you propose, it's determined by 'opinion' or 'best guess' or ouija board for that matter. And you'll never get consensus.

The fast-and-light crew and the slower-heavier team will be arguing until the sun burns cold.

Back when I paid more attention to various 'action pistol' games, there was a lot about the 'power factor.' Good idea in theory but the rule-writers (all dedicated 45 ACP shooters) picked a number that 9mm Parabellum shooters just couldn't quite reach. Which lead to a lot of hot-loaded 38 Supers on the line...

My state has a minimum distance that a bow has to be able to shoot an arrow. Kind of doubt anyone has ever checked somone's set up, though

Unless it's really broke, don't fix it, nothing is going to be perfect in this situation

with a 450 grain minimum, every big game animal that I have ever killed would have been illegal.

So now all the COs will be required to have the latest, state of the art, LED grain scales that they will have to carry with them. Guess who's going to pay for all that? Or will the state require that the hunter's arrows be officially weighed by a licensed state weighing agent before going into the field and then each officially weighed arrow must carry a mark or tag of some sort to verify said weight? In Illinois our Governor "Jelly Belly" Pritzger will also add yet ANOTHER tax to it also.

The only time CO s would check the minutiae of draw weight or arrow weight is when they are knee deep in writing tickets or arresting for much more grievous infractions. Only then to pile on, you can write whatever you want on a bow for poundage, they will never check it.

Compound hunters who cant resist taking bad shot wound far more deer than under bowed trad hunters ever could.

Im not smearing compound hunters in general. But theres a ton of them and the very worst hunters are less likely to choose trad(the worst ones are probably switching to crossbow so now they can take their low percentage shot at another 30 yards farther away.)

I think if anything should be regulated it would be tuning. I don't know how many shows I've watched where a fella only gets 5 " of arrow into the critter , and this is from a high weight compound. All the time and effort into hanging stands and waiting many hours for the shot, but no time for paper tuning? Draw weight and arrow weight are definitely important parts of the equation,but if that arrow looks like a woodcock in flight it doesn't matter much

As far as bear goes, I heard, "Sometimes you get the bear; sometimes the bear gets YOU!"

How about no more regulations period. Intelligent minds have thought this out decades ago, so I don't know why it's a big deal, especially to people who really aren't experts on mass/velocity science as it applies to hunting projectiles....in real life and real time.

Over 90% of all bowhunters here in the US never hunt anything bigger than whitetails so you don't need a 418 Rigby to punch through an animal of that stature. How about everyone learning to make good accurate shots with what is already known as an affective and legal weapon? And stop taking angle shots that are destined not to penetrate....like off shoulder aiming? And also what Pogo said.

So, now those 20# bows are legal for big game as long as you load them with a 450gr arrow.

I don't think there's a good answer, I know I shot a cow elk right in the center of her shoulder blade and got a complete pass through, it fell out the far side as she ran off. That was with a 357gr arrow from a high end compound, so while I agree a heavy arrow is good, I don't think regulating arrow weight is the answer. A tuned setup requirement would be there best answer, but how the hell do you enforce that?

The regulations here talk about broadhead minimum width in addition to the draw weight.

Michigan use to have a 40lb minimum back in the day before compounds now that they opened up all seasons for young kids I see that bow weight regulation has disappeared. I don't know how feel about it on one hand having kids getting into hunting is always a good thing but they also have let crossbows into the archery season so after my rant it's always about a cash grab.

" I'm not seeing a lot not to like ". I see a whole lot not to like GF. I want some speed and I've punched through a pile of deer ,some javies ,hogs, and a bear with arrows weighing less than 450grs. If such a law passed the Wardens will need a scale when they check me as my arrows would be right at the legal minimum unless I was shooting a bow 60lbs or more. I prefer real world experience to philosophical debate .

“ So now all the COs will be required to have the latest, state of the art, LED grain scales that they will have to carry with them. Guess who's going to pay for all that?”

Ummmm.... what? A simple balance stamped out of sheet metal and a standardized 450 weight would do nicely. Probably cost a couple dollars each. Tops. All a CO needs to know is whether your arrow weighs More than 450 or Less.

“I prefer real world experience to philosophical debate.”

But evidently not enough to keep you from wading into one. LOL

450 grains is 10 GPP at #45; that’s hardly a “heavy” arrow. At #35, it’s under 13; not exactly a crippling payload, and not nearly heavy enough to cause an accuracy issue at 17.3 yards. At #50, it’s at the magical 9 GPP. At #55, you’re down around 8 1/4 GPP and at #60, you’re at 7.5.... at which point a lot of guys start adding weight to their string (in the form of string “silencers” to get the noise level in check.

JMO, the only problem with leaving such things to common sense is that so many people seem to have so little of it..... often because the stage of Zero Experience is where - in fairness - exactly 100% of us start off. Some learn faster than others, of course....

But everybody with a lick of sense agrees that a draw weight minimum is pretty useless because different style bows perform at pretty hugely different levels, and it’s grains and speed that do the deed. It’s not practical to regulate on speed, but put in a Mass requirement and people will figure out what they need for poundage and design to give them a trajectory they’re willing to hunt with.

But let’s make it easier and standardize at 1oz. Anyone not clever enough to figure out whether their arrow weighs more or less than a 1oz fishing weight shouldn’t be trusted with a weapon of ANY kind anyway.

Didn't read all the posts so someone may have already pointed this out, but if you stipulate a 450 grain minimum arrow weight you would eliminate 80% of all wheelie shooters.

What Dana C said. 40 lbs at 28 would be illegal at a25 inch draw. You would then be a poacher ??

babysaph, I have no idea how your laws are written, but here it is a minimum weight for a specific draw length and under - aka on fingers at your draw length below that "marker". What is written on your bow is not important if you really want to abide by the law.

Minimum poundage or arrow weight restrictions are nearly impossible to enforce. Recommendations can and should be made but good luck enforcing them in the field.

If they are introducing a skill test and you are required to shoot a bow and arrow combo respecting the law there is no need for enforcing in the field. But this is a can of worms waiting to explode.

Talk about common sense, Many years ago while bowhunting in California, I saw two guys with one bow in the woods. The bow was an all fiberglass recurve strung backwards! with a cheap bow quiver with no hood, When I told them the dangers of a bow quiver with no hood, I was told the broadheads were not sharp enough to cut anything anyway!!!! So much for common sense.

Bob

NH has a 35# minimum for small game, 40# for deer, 60# for moose. 9/15-12/15. Crossbows only in gun season. Unless you are grandfathered in (like me) you need to take a hunter ed course. That's all good. Jawge

Ohio's 40lb marked weight but most gp's understand stickbows enough to let you slide if you're a tall person. If you're shorter theres not mucb they can do as they gave up on those little hand held scales not long after a few gp's tried it. Our min broadhead width is 3/4".

New Jersey has a new bow hunter shooting test, but no way to ensure you hunt with the same bow. Take the test with compound and sight then hunt with recurve/longbow is perfectly legal. No requirement to retest every year or retest if you change equipment.It's an attempt to ensure minimum skill but ultimately its up to you to be effective at the range you shoot.

With that weight arrow, my 45# recurve would not be legal at 9 GPP.

If I shot that 450 grain arrow out of a 15 lb bow, I do not think I could kill a Peep bunny. In Florida, the requirement used to be that a bow must shoot a 450 gn hunting arrow 100 yards. Definitely hard to check in the woods. We now have a 35 lb minimum. Getting light, but I have a 38 lb. K-Mag that I would not hesitate to shoot a deer with and expect great penetration.

Happy Easter to all.

Bow weight written on the bow is only correct if you have a 28" draw or a custm made for you.

or...we could all just shoot what we like and not worry about what other people do. Now there is a "crazy thought".

There are no reasons to pass laws on anything that do not stand a reasonable expectation of being enforced . That seems to be a trend pass some unrealistic law about things to show you are :doing something : about a problem that common sense can solve. If one lacks common sense they wont follow a law anyway.

How these laws came into place? 1. Too many wounded animals and too little responsibility? 2. Since a bow is a weapon, let's give the archers constraints? 3. Due to 1 and 2? 4. Other unknown reasons?

The poundage limit makes the most sense of all proposals here. Because most bows are marked. That is enforceable. If limits preclude enforcement, what good are they? That said, selfbows may not be marked. If it were up to me, we would have no laws at all concerning archery equipment. How many people go hunting with a bow that's not capable of taking the game they hunt? As is, we are over regulated. Arrow weight is the silliest of suggestions. How might that be enforced? Game wardens would have to have scales. I have never heard of a bowhunter being charged with a violation concerning his bow or arrows. Have you? As a retired state trooper with a state police agency, I can't tell you how many hunting and fishing violations I made charges on. None of them were without positive proof of guilt. Current bow hunting laws in most all states that concern equipment is not enforceable unless it is a case of hunting with an under pondage bow and that bow is marked. Even then, there's no consideration given to f/f strings and draw lengths which can easily push a bow into legal parameters. Such laws are silly. Not so with gun hunters. Mag capacity and caliber re easily identified. Some states have a foot pound of energy law that go by cartridge case markings. But then reloads can vastly exceed factory energy, but alas, the truth of reloads energy is of no consequence. So, don't worry about laws that can't be enforced due to lack of provable statistics. If a state has a 35lb limit, and you get charged, argue your case in court. I don't know of any state limiting poundage that say the marked poundage is enough to convict. In VA, where I worked, the law was that the bow must be capable of casting an arrow one hundred yards. How on earth might that be enforced?

Gotcha draven I made my bow. I wrote 80 lbs at 28 inches. I’m legal. Thanks

The laws came into place in most states in order to get an archery season. Seasoned archers gave their states what they thought the minimum would need to be in order to assure a quick kill if the archer did his part.

Because at that time most game dept's didn't feel archery equipment was up to the task of consistant kills.

"Gotcha draven I made my bow. I wrote 80 lbs at 28 inches. I’m legal. Thanks"

You didn't get it, but it is Ok

Thank you GLF for answers

Lol.

Lol.

State poundage minimums make little sense. They rely on draw length and bow efficiency, which varies infinitely from shooter to shooter and bow to bow (like someone already alluded to, a X pound self bow is not the same as a X pound compound bow). The only thing that makes less sense than poundage minimums is having no minimums at all, which at least 21 states have already selected as one of their shining moments of government ineptitude.

Probably the best/most credible approach to state bowhunting minimums is to start with arrow manufacturer recommendations (expressed as kinetic energy in ft. pounds) and using that data establish a state minimum arrow weight and arrow speed figure, respectively, for bowhunting.

Easton likely knows a little about arrow performance on game and suggests a minimum of 25 ft. pounds of K.E. for deer-sized game. Using that figure as an example, with a 450 gr. arrow/broadhead combo you'd need an arrow speed of about 160 f.p.s. to reach the 25 ft. # minimum. That is reasonable and is constant regardless of what poundage is actually being drawn by the shooter. Arrow speed can easily be measured with a chronograph (either yours or at your local archery shop), and anyone can weigh their arrows (grain scale). That approach is at least reasonably credible credible, especially compared to 'no minimum' which basically says 'we don't care if you wound animals, just give us your license money'.

States could provide hunters a simple chart showing K.E. levels for different arrow speeds and arrow weights, allowing hunters to determine the K.E. for their own setup(s). They could even offer to chrono bows for free at their annual training sessions/workshops, a good way to help people understand the need and t help the state stay in touch with the hunting public. In the end it would be up to the hunter to make sure his/her gear meets the 25 # K.E. minimum. If hunters are field-checked by wardens during the season, or at checking stations, etc. and their gear doesn't meet the minimum then too bad. A fine, record of violation and (if game was taken with sub-minimum gear) state confiscation of the critter is the lesson learned.

When it comes to archery regs it's time states and bowhunters accept responsibility/accountability and stop copping out on common sense hunting rules and behavior.

I kill deer every year with 400 grain arrows off a 40# Samick Sage drawn to 36#. I think a better law would be a 5" paper plate @ 20 yards, 8 out of ten shots in it to buy a tag.

"WHAT IF - instead of a minimum poundage requirement - the various states were to simply declare hat a Legal Hunting Arrow must be 450 grains or heavier. "

Yah, because the arrow doesn't care what draw weight was behind it, right?

What a load of crap.

NY is 35 pounds. I wish it would go to 40 or 45.

Doesn't LE just look at the poundage written on the bow? So you could have a 26 inch draw and have a bow marked 45@30 and be perfectly legal. Just drop the minimum and let people hunt with what they want to. Does it really matter anyway? Deer management has ruined all forms of hunting in the state of Kansas so if deer went extinct I could enjoy pheasant hunting much more since leasing would disappear. Deerhunt51 has it right. I am more concerned with accuracy over what stinking poundage someone is shooting. Some people shooting 55 lbs should not be carrying a bow.

Here in Connectitax a legal bow must be capable of shooting a 400 gr. arrow a distance of 150yds.

Since bow draw weight is not readily enforceable, how about mandatory bow Hunter education for anyone using archery equipment and no one gets grandfathered in. Bow Hunter education could include a heavy dose of bow efficiency and recommended bow /arrow combos for various big game animals. Education will likely be more effective than police action.

“ but if you stipulate a 450 grain minimum arrow weight you would eliminate 80% of all wheelie shooters.”

Not that that would break my heart, or anything…

But no, it absolutely would NOT “eliminate” them by ANY stretch of the imagination. It might force them to re-tune with the heavier arrow, which could impose something of a speed limit, but so what? If that would be enough to get some of them to quit, I’m pretty sure that the sport would be better off for it.

“ If I shot that 450 grain arrow out of a 15 lb bow, I do not think I could kill a Peep bunny. ”

OK, so what weight arrow do you suppose WOULD be lethal out of a #15 bow?

“ With that weight arrow, my 45# recurve would not be legal at 9 GPP.”

That’s true. That’s the thing with a legal minimum; sooner or later, some folks are going to run up against it. Is it only OK to impose a minimum so long as it only applies to somebody else? But your #45 WOULD be entirely legal. Is 1GPP going to be a deal-breaker??

“ The laws came into place in most states in order to get an archery season. Seasoned archers gave their states what they thought the minimum would need to be in order to assure a quick kill if the archer did his part.”

Were those the same people who came up with the KE guidelines for black bears and Elk that put 540 grains off of #62 at the bottom of the acceptable range?? ;)

The thing is....

I really don’t think there should be NO minimum; but I’m not at all convinced that poundage is the correct variable for regulation. At 15 GPP, pretty much ANY stickbow bow is going to be a very limited-range deal. But if a hunter can only manage #30, is that all bad?

I don’t really think 450 is the right number for whitetails; probably 400 is ample. Which is what the minimum should be, JMO. Ample; not “minimally sufficient if you really know what you’re doing and nothing goes sideways.”

One other crazy idea... If bows under #30 are exempt from the Pittman - Robertson tax, should they be legal for hunting?

Just throwin’ it out there for a little healthy debate....

“ Here in Connectitax a legal bow must be capable of shooting a 400 gr. arrow a distance of 150yds.”

Where did you get that??

From the DEEP site, the entire description is as follows:

“ Legal Bows and Arrows - For the purposes of hunting deer and turkey, legal bows include long, recurved, or compound bows with a minimum draw weight of 40 pounds and crossbows. Mechanical string release devices are permitted. Projectiles coated with any drug, poison, or tranquilizing substance are prohibited.”

I’m not saying that I disagree with the 400 grains X 150 yards requirement, but I sure don’t see it anywhere.

“ Yah, because the arrow doesn't care what draw weight was behind it, right?

What a load of crap.”

Well, what better option might you propose? A poundage requirement prohibits some people from being physically capable of participating. An arrow mass minimum does not. It may - MAY - restrict someone’s effective range, but that beats staying home. And for light bow shooters, higher GPP = greater efficiency from whatever bow they choose. No harm in that.

NEVADA – LEGAL A longbow used in hunting a big game mammal must, in the hands of the user, be capable of throwing a 400 grain arrow 150 yards over level terrain. Arrows used in hunting big game mammals must be at least 24 inches long and have: (a) Fixed broadheads that are at least 7/8-inch wide at the widest point; or (b) Expandable, mechanical broadheads that are at least 7/8-inch wide at the widest point when the broadhead is in the open position.

Again, how is arrow weight enforceable or measured by officers? It simply is not. No agency I ever heard of has arrow weight scales. Nor do they have pull weight scales. Go hunting with a girly weight bow (like I do) and arrows too light. Who can know? No one. Archery equipment laws are for those who want to be legal.

Can’t be enforced. Shoot what you want

“ No agency I ever heard of has arrow weight scales. ”

Why would they, if there is no requirement in the regulations?

All that’s needed is a teeter-totter type of balance. You know - like Blind Justice, only simpler.

The arrow is heavier than the counterweight or it isn’t. Done. No measuring DL, no calculations, no BS markings on a bow, no flight shooting. Absolutely enforceable.

"400 gr. arrow 150 yards" has anyone ever been asked to do that?

GF this isn't "no student left behind", this is bowhunting by inflicting the least pain possible along with the quickest kill possible. If you can no longer shoot what it takes to do that you shouldn't be hunting with that weapon. And no the arrow doesn't care whats pushing it but we should. Not every bow will push it fast enough to get the job done humanely EVERY time a good shot is made. And we've seen with out own eyes on this forum that heavy arrow do NOT always equate to deeper penetration. I believe what I see more than what I read. Ron(bowhunter) who used to come in here borrowed my 640gn arrows to shoot from his 40lb black widow at our target butt. 2 or 3 out of ever 5 he shot at 25 yards bounced off the butt. He went back to his 2016s and never bounced a single one, and never had. There is a point where the bows not enough for the animal you're hunting ,and as much as we hate saying it, health or strength doesn't change that. Push the envelope too far and the day will come when it'll come back to bite us on the butt.

"Michigan use to have a 40lb minimum back in the day before compounds now that they opened up all seasons for young kids I see that bow weight regulation has disappeared."

in order for youngsters to hunt they are supposed to have a mentor. if a kid is using poor equipment, thats the mentors fault, not too few regulations.

Ricky us right. Now days you can't exclude anyone. Besides we are reading and seeing pics of kids killing game with 25 lbs. So we know at least that low works. I killed tow deer with 35 lbs right after should surgery but still hunt now with a heavier bow. So I say shoot what you want. Most boys are short drawn anyway.

The 'anything goes' approach to bowkilling animals during state bow seasons is about as irresponsible as it gets. That 21 states actually do it and some hunters think its fine and dandy is a reflection on just how poor (apathetic, political) game management and hunter ethics have become in this country.

A management program isn't credible without rules to manage by. Rules need to work and be simple enough to monitor and hold violators accountable for. Nope, you can't legislate honesty, ethics or common sense. But you can make make it harder for slob hunters to cheat, wound or otherwise hunt irresponsibly.

Think of it this way. Would you want to live where there are no rules to protect your property from 'anything goes' practices (some might call it redneck law) by the public at large? Where anyone could do whatever they wanted because there aren't any rules to say otherwise? Well in most places game animals ARE your property...and everyone else's that pays taxes...until legally taken and registered. So why not manage them with the level of competency and respect they deserve?

“ There is a point where the bows not enough for the animal you're hunting ,and as much as we hate saying it, health or strength doesn't change that. Push the envelope too far and the day will come when it'll come back to bite us on the butt.”

100% Agreed.

I don’t know what to make of your arrows bouncing out of a target, though... All conventional wisdom insists that that bows are more efficient at higher GPP, and that this holds well past the point where the trajectory is unsuitable for any kind of distance at all....

One odd thing I can tell you about... when my Block was falling apart, I had bound it up with a single strand of mason’s twine, and on a handful of occasions, I dead centered the twine and damned if my arrow didn’t come straight back out, and with a little steam on it, no less. They came flying right on back a good 3-4 yards...

I don’t think that was a what you’re describing.... LOL

Well, damn. I thought I’d found that Magic Bullet. Even if it IS an arrow....

LOL.....

I have seen arrows bounce off targets like GLF mentioned. You have too if you have attended very many 3D shoots with kids around. Can you tell the difference when you draw a 20 or 30 pound bow as opposed to 50. I believe most of us can. I pull different weights every day & scale them. I usually come within 5 pounds. A simple balance scale like GF referenced to can be carried in your pocket. You can usually guess a small person, woman, or youngster's draw length by just looking at them and their arrows. Game wardens are pretty bright. All rules can be enforced. Be careful what you wish for, what you recommend, and what you use. >>>>----> Ken

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