Damage my shoulder and now I have to shoot 35 pounds or a little more I know it can be done just need some encouragement I’ve read where Larry Hatfield killed a bunch of bear with 35 pounds

No doubt it could be done if shot placement is rite,if your going through an outfitter most have minimum weight requirements and i don't think 35lbs is going to make it.

I know I am one of those who has repeated the story of Larry and 35 pounds a number of times, but he recently mentioned that it was built as a kid’s bow, and he was drawing it to more like #48....

So we may have to put an asterisk on that.

I do know he has often said that bears are not hard to shoot through, but he was also killing whichever bears were doing the damage, rather than looking for an especially big one. So your specific application may call for something different.

I totally agree Bret c.

Don't most states have minimum weight requirements?

It will be in Maine which has a 35 pound minimum requirement. 525 Tapered cedar with a 175 tough head single bevel. 15 to 17 yard shot from a tree stand

draw length, arrow weight, and broadhead style, will all come in to play, 35# ? Not for me. if I wasn't 100% sure it could do the job I wouldn't try. its just my respect for the animals. but I also have no problems switching to other equipment to hunt.

That’s a pretty serious projectile.....

I’ll try to work my way up still have a ways to go until September but we’ll see what happens yeah it’s a pretty serious Arrow it should hit like a telephone pole instead of a soda straw

with a well tuned bow/arrow, and a hair popping sharp broadhead,

i say no problem :)

I'd say your arrow is up to it. It's all about whether your bow has enough energy to drive that arrow thru both lungs if it encounters bone on the way in. Not all 35# bows are equal in that respect. With that said.. as you already stated proper arrow placement is key.

I have seen a picture on the Centaur website of a big bear killed with 38#’ super curve bow he makes. Heavy arrow with big BH. So I guess it can be done.

Let me be the ass who says that planning to shoot a 15 GPP extreme FOC arrow out of a 35 lb bow at a bear is just wrong. If you miss your aim point because the bear hears your 100 FPS arrow and moves, then you're no longer going to be in a tree stand at 15-17 yards, you're going to be on the ground in thick brush trying to find a wounded bear and he might find you first. What the heck...go to Africa and shoot an 'old dugga boy' with that rig, then go get him ...by yourself.

My limited experience says bear are easier to shoot through then deer. I’ve seen #35 work quite successfully with my own eyes and wouldn’t be concerned in the listwith a moderately heavy arrow and sharp 2 blade broadhead.

Biathlonman X 2

Well, I guess if you have your heart set on being That Guy....

I guess I WOULD get myself a very efficient bow if I were going to hunt at that weight, but there are a LOT of guys here who actually do prefer 15 GPP, and I’m pretty sure they’re clocking better than 100 fps. At least a buck forty, I would guess.

e = mv2 every time. The bow's ability to transfer energy via the string is static. I don't know of many 35# bows that can push a 10gpp arrow more than 160 fps, so if you increase the mass by a multiplier of 1.5, you decrease the speed squared by a factor of 1.5, you've got 132 fps 1 yard from the bow, and significantly less than that 15 yards out. A bear without its fur is very similar to a human, and with a good hit they are not hard to kill, but I've been within 5 yards of a lot a bears, and you cannot believe how fast they can spin and hit high gear.

I’ve been successful on deer with 42#, and I’ve also failed on deer with the same 42#, for lack of penetration. I’ve since bumped up the the mid 50s on the modern longbows i shoot and haven’t had penetration issues once. My point being, for every guy who says they’ve been successful at super low weights there’s probably another who has failed because of the same weight. Just an opinion but if I could only draw a 35# traditional bow I’d keep shooting it for fun but would seriously consider just switching weapons for hunting.

Let me be clear that I’m not arguing with you there, Mark, but I honestly have never heard that bears are prone to getting all wired-up the way that deer do.

But hey good, new information is great information!

There are days when I think that when I can no longer pull #45, I’ll switch back to .54..... but as long as I am stranded here out East, I guess I will need to stay in the archery game somehow if I want to see any kind of success whatsoever hunting deer…

But you know, a #35 compound these days.... they can Bring It.

mangonboat X2. I live in bear country, some of the biggest black bears anywhere. I’ve had many close encounters with them, tracked and packed them. If you think it’s easier to shoot through a 4 or 5 hundred pound black bear than a one hundred and twenty pound whitetail, then you go right ahead and think that. I’m not gonna shoot one with a 35# bow. I’m sure it can be done but I’ll let someone else do it. I suggest building some strength and get at least another ten pounds.

Me, I currently shoot 35. But never have I had a desire to kill a bear. Just me. I don't judge.

Oh, also, I'm working daily to be able to handle 40 as easily as 35. Although 35 is plenty, the more the better. Increased distance for one example. Another is smoother release. If I were a black bear hunter, I'd have no reservation about slicing thru one with a sharp 2 blade. I think it is an error on the part of those restricted to low poundage to believe in heavy shafts and multiple blades being the answer. A cutoff exist where heavy is no longer an advantage. Go in the bear woods completely confident with your straight non-tapered shafts and a 2 blade head. Do you know the average pull weight of the Eastern Woodland Indians was 35? And that with flint heads! Be confident with close shots. Even those who easily shoot heavy bows must still be close enough to hit.

If I'm hunting deer I expect to see an animal in the 75-150 pound range, possibly up to 200.

Hunting bear, I might see an animal 100-200 pounds. BUT, there are bears in the 350+ pound range out there, and I might encounter one.

It's your a**. When I'm looking for bear I carry a 45-70 ;-)

With a FF string these new bows are deadly. I shoot a 38# Coywolf that's about 35# at my draw length and out to 20 yards I wouldn't be afraid of killing a small Bear, In Pa. we have Bears that can weigh up to 600 pounds. So the Bears and there are big Bears.

I’d use over 60 lbs

Sharp broadhead, "good shot placement", no problem. More animals are wounded by hunters being overbowed than lighter weight bows. If a bear comes in to the range you are talking about I doubt you will have no problem getting sufficient penetration. As for jumping the string, many deer have been killed with 35 lb bows and bears a far less likely to jump a string.

Dan, I wouldn't ask anyone what they thought. If your outfitter is ok with the poundage and you feel comfortable with it then go for it.

Where your stats to back up your wounded animals with Overbowed bows crazyjjk really??

I've killed five black bears with a bow, it's been my experience that they die quicker than a whitetail when hit through the lungs with an arrow.

If I was going after a bear with a 35# bow I would use a carbon arrow with 75gr brass insert and a 165gr Ace Standard broadhead honed scary sharp..

Hey Ron. Well right I’m shooting a 35 Little favorite. ????

Type in Africa? click on the 22-Feb-20 thread. There's some African game that was taken with a 35# bow.

Pods ??????????

Wep pods Fred used them . But that’s another subject.

I think Larry Hatfield's said many times that a black bear is one of the easiest big game animals to kill in his experience, and I think he's killed quite a number of them with light bows.

Bears die quickly if killed quickly.

35# with the right arrow and BH will probably work on an average 200 lb black bear. But! Unless your hunting for survival and not sport hunting. You may want to put your ego and pride aside and use a compound or firearm. Many use their traditional purity as an excuse to push the envelope of being fair to the animal.

Wounded animals are part of hunting. Be it big game with a bow or upland birds with a shotgun. Shoot the most weight you can accurately handle, doesn't matter if it's 35 or 55. Practice practice practice and shoot a good weight arrow that tunes well and has a sharp broadhead. If you wound something its all a part hunting. It's going to happen to all of us, multiple times. The last time I failed to recover a deer was 1995, and a turkey 2 years ago. Pick your bow weight and have at it.

If that's all you can do I'd recommend going line for line on the Ashby top 10 penetration factors.

Being legal doesn't mean being a good idea. I hunt in Maine and the typical cover is very thick, like hair on a dog's back thick. Although legal a toy-weight bow isn't a good (or IMO ethical) choice for any large game, let alone dangerous game. I wouldn't use one that light but hey, its your decision and your conscience if things don't quite go right.

At least your not on the ground at 15 yards, lol. If you change your mind on that and still choose a tiny bow I'd suggest sitting on an ATV, fueled and pointed in a 'I'm outta' here! orientation. In fact, best keep the motor running.

Im sure it can be done. But sometimes its a better idea to use a crossbow.

"Wounded animals are part of hunting."

It shows you don't live in an area where you have black bears in the backyard. I doubt any of "#35 is good for bear" crowd would like to live where they wounded a black bear.

“ Bears die quickly if killed quickly.”

Can’t argue with THAT! LOL

But I would vehemently disagree with “well, wounded animals are just part of it, so oh, well....”

Yes, it happens, even when we have every reasonable right to expect that our “load” is fully up to the task, even when things get a bit sideways. That’s a whole different moral/ethical ballgame than going into it knowing that you can only (reasonably) expect things to turn out OK if everything goes down exactly according to plan.

I would be delighted to hunt with the OP’s arrow.... adjusted for spine so I could shoot it out of one of my low-#50s. Seems to me that the biggest question here is “How big a bear?”

Illegal in Ontario,Canada.

You need minimum of 40# for deer, and 50# for bear and moose at 28” draw.

Just a FWIW.

If you dont shoot a great big one youll be ok. I shot a few 7 footers (measured before they were skinned) I shot them with a 57# bow and it was like shooting into a big potato but I had complete penetration on most of them . I wouldnt go over 10 grains per pound and I would shoot a Wensel woodsman broadhead .

Listening to advice from people that have never killed a bear of even a deer with 35# is a waste of time.

"Use a pod, a gun, a crossbow but don't use a "toybow" If you don't know what you're talking about then it's better to keep your mouth shut and listen to those that have experience.

A lung shot bear will crash through brush about 30 to 35yd's, then the crashing noise stops. Most times to let out a death bawl. If you've been waiting for it with compass in hand you can pinpoint the direction and walk right to your dead bear.

One more point a 35# bow more than likely won't get complete penetration so the arrow stays in the wound keeping it open for the blood to leave a trail in case to don't have a compass.

Len Cardinale killed his Grizzly with a 45lb. recurve.

So, Ron.... Do you think they stop at 30-35 yards because they’re outta gas and just crash, or because they are done being startled and then they just sorta keel over?

It wouldn’t surprise me if they slow right down as soon as they register the fact that there’s nothing chasing them. Because why would you run from Nothing? Especially if you suddenly weren’t feeling so good?

Frank, now let's see how many have Len's cold blood. Larry Hatfield here is killing bears stalking them and shooting them when they are half asleep during the day. Killing bears over the barrel may work with a #35 but going out to hunt them when they are active and looking for food with a #35 is something nobody actually envision.

I’ve killed three bears, two with two blade and one with 3 blade heads. All shaving sharp heads. Recovery distances were 42, 60 and 35 yards. My buddy has killed two that I’ve been on hunts with him and both went under 50 yards with two blade Zwickey Delta heads. One of those was a Bear Grizzly at 45# and cedar arrow. The broadhead sliced the offside leg bone. This bow had a Dacron string. I’m not an expert, but I’ve bear hunted enough to be more than an armchair quarterback.

If you don’t hit a bear well, you will probably not get it (I’ve been on three tracks- not mine-of poorly hit bears and they all were lost after a mile of trailing. These were with 50-60# bows.

I coached a friend who owned a cattle farm and good whitetail population help his kids kill three whitetail with a 24# Bear recurve. All shot at about 10 yards from elevated platform that wasn’t too high for good shot angle. Two of three deer had complete penetration. Arrow set up was key. Easton Axis Junior shaft, brass insert and 2 blade Grizzly heads with steel insert. The arrows flew well and had 300 grain up front and were close to 500 grain.

Those are all attributes from the Ashby studies: Skinny carbon arrows Narrow 2 blade single bevel head Front weight arrows

Your bow is a good one and my guess is you have a fast flight style string on it. You’re using a two blade head, which is good. If I were in your shoes, I’d switch to a skinny carbon arrow with extra weight up front that flies perfectly from your bow. The weight of your wood arrows are good but you’re looking for a cumulative advantage and skinny carbon with high front of center weight is better.

I’d also suggest cutting your shot distance to 12-14 yards and keep your stand low to insure low shot angle and best odds for double lung hit (which is your goal). No more than 10 feet up.

Well that’s my advice and final comment is that you can be successful with the right arrow, sharp and well placed. Study bear anatomy charts to make sure you know exactly where to place arrow.

I am 100% with you M60gunner !!!!!!! Des

Up to you, will 35 kill a bear ? I am sure it will, so will a 22 rifle. Would I do either, ? No.

I still don't know what pod means.

What if you don’t draw 28 inches?

Ray, buckdancer has a Shrew Lil Favorite which has a Shrew string so he doesn't need a fast flight string

Larry Hatfield is using a light weight bow to kill bears

A gut shot bear is more than likely a lost bear

GF, A double lung shot bear stops running because he is dead.

Pod: poison capsule on the end of an arrow. My best understanding, never have seen but it's what a I have gathered from other discussions here. Not really relevant here and was said more as a joke.

I have taken 4 bears with a bow.. all pass through but then I shoot heavier bows than most.

Blood trail was sparse on 2 of the 4. Never autopsied any of them, but not 1 of the 4 bears went past 50 yards. The two good blood trails I had were from large 3 blade heads.

Bears are easy to kill but can be hard to find. If it was me, I would not shoot an arrow that heavy, and I would use a carbon so as not to impede penetration. Yes, I know that wood can do it, but it is a fact that carbon penetrates better. Since you are already limiting yourself by shooting 35lbs, I wouldn't continue to handicap yourself.

I also wouldn't have one seconds of fear over the dangers of bears.... but that's me. I don't live my life afraid of animals, but they live afraid of me! :) BigJim

Great bear pics and thanks for sharing them!

Were any of those bear killed with 35# bows?

I would listen to Ron Dan... I think you can get it done.

If I was going to try it, it would be either a Dryad ACS RC or a Covert Hunter big hook recurve, not all 35# bows are created equal!

Hmmmm....thirty five pounds? Think I would work real hard on shoulder recovery.

Archery celebrity entitlements and false bravados aside, the 'logic' of intentionally hunting dangerous/robust animals for SPORT (not for survival, not for self defense, not for lack of availability of a weapon more suitable to the job, more to say "Look at me'), with barely adequate gear more suited to rabbits and squirrels, is patently absurd and deserving of whatever word turds the ethical hunting community, PETA or common-sense people of the world want to throw at it. Being legal doesn't make it right or logical and I'd like to think that ethical hunters, especially those that are experienced, looked up to and often sought out for good hunting advice, would know better than to fan the 'hold my beer and watch this' flames of bad ideas whenever these what's enough weight threads come up. That's not a hit on the original poster, I realize you asked your question in good faith. It's for those who insist on making hunting choices all about bragging possibilities and less about end result probabilities. There's a reason why folks shouldn't shoot elephants, bears, deer or big game with small game gear. We all know what it is. Regardless of one's status in the archery world it wouldn't hurt everyone to be more responsible and accountable in how topics like this one are 'mentored'. To those that realize this need, much appreciated. To those that don't...whatever.

Stix, thanks for the specs and great bear, congrats!

Buckdancer, for a better answer to your question (at least better than subjective colorful stories/opinions, including mine) you might consider the science end of things...i.e., the kinetic energy produced by your proposed bow/arrow setup.

A well-known arrow manufacturer (I know, this isn't definitive but at least they base their opinions on physics not stories) offers that for deer-sized game a STARTING point for the "is it enough" question is about 25 ft. pounds of K.E.

With your 525 Gr. arrow and assuming 140 f.p.s. arrow speed (which with a 35# bow and a 175 gr. BH might be on the high side, but lets assume 140) your K.E. would be around 22.8 ft. lbs....not enough to meet the recommended 25 ft. lb.minimum. At your arrow weight and speed number you'd need at least 147 f.p.s. and probably more, given that the K.E. measurement is at the bow, not at the target (i.e. not 15-17 yards away...which suggests a fair amount less actual K.E. energy present when the arrow actually hits the animal). So if one gives any credence to the math side of the issue your bow doesn't quite meet the need at hand with regard to poundage. Of course, this also doesn't take into account broadhead, bow efficiency, weather conditions, shooting accuracy or angle, etc. etc., but you get the idea.

P.S. Except to cover the legal aspect, state minimums for bow weight aren't a reliable place to start with regard to common sense decisions affecting bow weight choice. Some states don't have any minimums at all...which tells you about the suitability of state governments' general approach to the issue.

I've only killed two black bears in New Brunswick Canada. I was shooting 60# to 65# recurve bows and 650 grain maple arrows I made with four blade Zwickey Deltas both times. Both bears were pass through lung shots, and both didn't go past 60 yards. One bear left no blood trail, the other a very slight blood trail. The first bear did leave out a death moan, the second one didn't. Can a bear be killed with a 35# bow ? Properly depending on the size of the bear and how close the shot is. Would I bow hunt bear with a 35# bow, no I wouldn't. But I know what it is like to be on the bad side of a pissed off sow with two cubs. I had a mad sow black bear with two cubs looking up the tree at me snapping her teeth. I didn't have a back up gun so I had my bow ready in case she started up the tree after me. I didn't want to shoot her because she had the two cubs but if she would of come up the tree after me that would of changed real quick. Lucky both cubs ended up wandered off and she went after them.

I had a 45lb recurve that could shoot an arrow of the same weight the same distance as a 60lb hill bow with a B50 string. I would think a 35lb recurve with a low stretch string then could shoot as fast as a 50lb hill bow with a B50. Now poundage starts not be the deciding factor and FPS comes into play. Unless the law specifically states a minimum poundage.

“ A double lung shot bear stops running because he is dead.”

OK, so that’s “not until”.... Runs ‘til he drops.

I think Altek raised some great points.

I picked up a Bear Mag. with 35 pound limbs and it is one of my favorite bows to shoot. Shoots 175 gr. perfectly. Shooting from a tree stand with perfect placement I think you would be able to kill a bear.

I think Altek raised some great points.

X2

I think it can be done. But should it be done Because you are not at 100%. Why not just use an efficient 35# compound. If that is against your self imposed rules. Just take photos of the bear.

Love the pictures. Pictures always validate first hand experience.

“GF, A double lung shot bear stops running because he is dead.”

I have been reading Leatherwall lately and not posting, but I had to post to this thread.... that is the best and at the same time funniest answer I have ever read to a question on LW. Reminded me of the time a NASCAR race “analyst” asked Dale Earnhardt Sr. how he planned to win at Talladega.....Earnhardt’s answer: “Get in front, stay in front”....I almost fell out of my recliner laughing.

A double lung hit will absolutely kill ANYTHING that breathes, from a carp to a bear.

Ron gave you all the encouragement you need Buckdancer, hit them good and they die. Good Luck

“GF, A double lung shot bear stops running because he is dead.”

I have been reading Leatherwall lately and not posting, but I had to post to this thread.... that is the best and at the same time funniest answer I have ever read to a question on LW. Reminded me of the time a NASCAR race “analyst” asked Dale Earnhardt Sr. how he planned to win at Talladega.....Earnhardt’s answer: “Get in front, stay in front”....I almost fell out of my recliner laughing.

A double lung hit will absolutely kill ANYTHING that breathes, from a carp to a bear.

Ron gave you all the encouragement you need Buckdancer, hit them good and they die. Good Luck

“ Pictures always validate first hand experience.*”

*When the outcome is a success.

But you never see pictures posted showing failures. (Well, unless you count stuff like some of my First Shot posts! LOL)

“ Shooting from a tree stand with perfect placement I think you would be able to kill a bear.”

So, serious questions:

1) Define “perfect”, and tell me how much margin for error that provides.

2) Assuming an “imperfect” placement, how many slugs of momentum or foot- pounds of energy are required to compensate for being outside of “perfect” by 1” or 2” or 6” or whatever given amount?

FWIW, any animal that collapses “on the run” within 35 or 40 yards did not die from collapsed lungs, but from blood loss. Probably any old couch potato could sprint a good 60-70 yards without taking in a good breath along the way.... Double lung collapse is very effective, but it ain’t as quick as bleeding them out with catastrophic blood pressure collapse....

I think people that think a 35# bow isn't adequate to kill a bear should try a modern bow of that weight with a carbon arrow. I think they might change their opinion. Both Big Jim and I suggested he switch from wood to carbon arrows.

This is Buckdancers original post.

"Damage my shoulder and now I have to shoot 35 pounds or a little more I know it can be done just need some encouragement I’ve read where Larry Hatfield killed a bunch of bear with 35 pounds"

“ A double lung hit will absolutely kill ANYTHING that breathes, from a carp to a bear”

Well, actually…

OK, first off... Carp don’t have lungs, but I’m pretty sure that you knew that.

Second thing is, a double lung hit will only kill with certainty if both lungs collapse. It will only kill quickly if both ones collapse promptly.

My brother zipped a stinger high through both lungs of a cow Elk at about 18 yards. And she stood there, staring at the spot where that weird sound had come from for a good, long while. So there he sat (or knelt, is the case may be) unable to nock another arrow for fear of busting her out of there and he was able to observe as she appeared to be losing control of various bodily functions and getting wobbly in the knees. This was a period of several minutes, mind you, at which point the rest of the herd begin to wander away and she fell in with the others and walked off, never to be seen again.

He found his arrow slicked with blood from end to end, but did not report any blood on the ground. And he was able to determine exactly where she had been standing because of the fact that her sphincters had gone off duty while she stood there gawking.

By rights, she should have bedded and died where she stood.

Did she die? Definitely; this was years ago! But when?? Anybody’s guess. They took the dogs up the hill for a walk in that area later, and they never indicated that they had picked up the scent of a kill.... Not that they were trained for that, but no sign was ever found.

And I suppose it IS possible that he shot through just enough fat & muscle that not enough air came in through the entry or exit to deflate her lungs. Nobody knows - can’t prove a thing without a body. All we know is that she was hit hard, but high, with complete penetration and then some, with a very sharp BH which apparently hit no bone. And he had plenty of time to see where he had hit her, so both the confirmed placement and blood on the arrow argued against a liver shot or over-the-spine hit.

Complete fluke? One in a million? Likely. And hey, maybe those lungs would have collapsed right quick had the arrow NOT passed all the way through. Maybe he would have been better off if she had bolted, ramped her blood pressure inhaled more forcefully, etc. Hard to know.

To repeat, I have killed five black bears with a bow, one in the fall in Michigan by stalking and four in Ontario in the spring season by baiting never loosing one.

The biggest mistake a lot of people make is they don't have the patience to wait for the proper shot. A bear will give you the perfect shot eventually if you wait for it. Again use a compass to get a reading on the bears line of travel. If the blood trail is sparse just follow the direction of your compass. Unlike a deer a dead bear's blackness can be seen at a great distance in the woods. This has been my "experience".

Just my luck… If I were to shoot a bear it would probably be a “real tree” color phase!

Interesting (to me, anyway) that they would run hard until they drop… What good is it to be an Apex predator if you’re going to run from stuff you can’t even see?

Don’t get me wrong… I think I would rather have one going flat out until it fell, because it would be a lot easier to track in the absence of a blood trail. Kind of odd, though, that I don’t think I’ve ever seen or heard anyone mention using a compass bearing to find a deer. Seems pretty common sense, now that you mention it…

GF. Ron has been preaching using a compass at our deer camp for thirty years. After dark, when all the trees look the same, it can take you from the base of your tree stand to the last place you saw or heard an animal

A small compass is very fast and easy to use. They save a lot of steps in the wrong direction. Even if you are not actually lost. It’s easy to take the long way out in very thick dark brush. Faster than a GPS or Phone. May be why they put them on some bows. Because many people had them pinned to their jackets

All of my bears ran hard until they expired. Watched two of them go down in sight. Not a lot of blood in any case..except 1, even though I had complete pass through on all. I don't see the problem with a non pass through but achieving double lung.

Lost animals are always hit well.. lungs and or heart! It was the broadheads fault. I thought ya'll knew that. :) If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that! BigJim

"Lost animals are always hit well" ain't that the truth.

Ray, remember the time you, me and Roger was tracking one night? We were wayback in the pucker brush and decided to head back to the truck. Roger said we go this way my GPS says, I said I'm going to follow my compass bearing. Anyway you and I came out right at the truck, while Roger guieded by his GPS came out down the trail aways. 8>)

Big Jim, yep I've heard those stories of dead critters walking off.

Lol, agreed GF, the carp would need a double gill hit :^)

Bait knife to the brain usually works for me on the carp :^)

I agree with what others above have said, a modern 35 pound recurve shooting modern carbon arrows are not your granddaddy‘s 66” 35 pound Blackhawk Bee lobbing overspined Port Orford cedar in the backyard.

That said, a modern string coupled with properly tuned aluminum or carbon arrows will turn the Blackhawk into a viable hunting weapon in the hands of a proficient archer

The video shows what can happen with a poor shot, no matter how many lbs. you shoot. Upon release it shows his string hand going to the side and down, his head pulls away to the left to watch his shot and the arrow takes the predictable path, low and to the left. He's lucky to be alive I would think.

After watching Tim Wells kill a bear with a blow gun... I'm pretty sure 35# will get it done. That said - not something I would set out to do. And THAT said - who am I to tell another man what his bowhunt should look like?

I have killed one bear with a bow, 300lbs. And one with a rifle. Shot it with a self bow 45lbs throwing a 460 gr arrow at barely 150 ft/s. Arrow had complete penetration. I know that is not a lot but that arrow passed through the bear like butter. I stated before more game is lost by guys being overbowed and not being able to make an accurate shot than what many consider a to light bow that can be shot accurately by the hunter.. It is accurate shot placement and a sharp broadhead that will get the job done. The man has issues because of an injury yet he is still out there shooting because of the love of the sport. Who am I to deny him enjoying hunting with a bow because the poundage doesn't fit the perceived arbitrary normal. As long as its legal and he holds out for a high percentage shot I say go for it. A well placed shot and a sharp broadhead will do the job.

Interesting to bring in discussion bears shot in Ontario when the minimum legal is at least #48.5 at any draw length less or equal with 27.6” which in layman language is “if you don’t shoot a #50 on fingers or better you don’t hunt black bears here”.

But I agree that if it is legal, do it and pick your shot wisely.

PS looking forward to hear what the black bear hunters are using down South - not the exceptions, the average Joe.

Never hunted bear..but I loved the discussion on arrow speed above, and checked using Stu Miller spine calculator on Rick Barbee's site. Awesome tool for this sort of thing, takes the hard math out of my hands.

sort of amazing results- light bows shoot faster than folks realize.

Bear Takedown 35#/28" bow used for modelling, 3 feathers, etc.

525 Tapered cedar with a 175gr point should go about 151FPS.

Shift to carbon (black eagle deep impact used) and 175gr tip+ insert weight and you get close to 168FPS.

Seems reasonable to me though as I have gotten >180FPS through a chrony on light draw weight bows using ~10GPP. I do have a long draw, helps add extra energy.

The kinetic energy information was offered simply as a way to help quantify what theoretically (based on numbers) may happen. Results can and will change depending on real-world variables. The real question (other than 'Is it legal') is whether an archer is willing to risk the diminishing (again, by the numbers) returns offered by lighter bows and arrows that only 'might' do the job, in exchange for confidence provided by knowing they WILL do the job if the archer does theirs. It's really a practical application of common sense, but it does make for spirited debate.

BTW, another well-known arrow manufacturer (different than the one mentioned earlier) also recommends 25 ft. lbs. of K.E....as a starting point...for game like deer. For larger game (they include Elk and Black Bear here) their recommendation is 42-65 ft. lbs. For what it's worth, those are numbers that you are not likely to meet with lightweight bows and arrows.

Wanna' calculate your own numbers? Here's the K.E. formula:

(Arrow Speed) X (Arrow Weight Squared) divided by 450,800

See for yourself.

So, Pip... How many theoretical grains did you give up to get the extra 10% velocity?

@Altek -

You’ve got a typo there...

Momentum is Mass X Velocity

Kinetic Energy is 1/2 Mass X Velocity squared.

You can pick either one. And there’s not really any need to apply the numbers for converting from grains or ounces or grams or feet/sec or meters/sec because as long as you’re using the same units from one set-up to the next, it’s all relative anyway. 20% more is 20% more, whether you’re using slugs, Joules, watts or FPE.

But anyway.....

“ BTW, another well-known arrow manufacturer (different than the one mentioned earlier) also recommends 25 ft. lbs. of K.E....as a starting point...for game like deer. For larger game (they include Elk and Black Bear here) their recommendation is 42-65 ft. lbs.”

That’s pretty shocking to me...,

I have Stu’s calculator pulled up on my PC.; according to this, if I run a 500 grain arrow through one of my bows at 194 fps, that will give me that “minimally sufficient” #42 FPE. 42.3 to be precise. Thing is, I have to be able to draw #62 to do that. If I bump my arrow mass to 643, I get 42.5 FPE at a cost of 10% in velocity.

In order to get up to 65 FPE, I would have to be shooting the equivalent of a 691 green arrow (that would be a 28”, 2419 aluminum with 250 grains on the front clocking 206 fps, for which I would need the equivalent of a #90 Howatt Hunter with a dangerously light 14-strand FF string. And I would still be spined #10 light.

I also ran the numbers for a generic Recurve, #35 @ 24” drawn to 29”, and at 9 GPP, the calculator spits out 35.1 FPE. Same as my #50@28” Bamboo Viper drawn 27.5”.

Silly me… I started my serious Bowhunting career with #55 Howard Hunter which evidently spits out an 8.4 GPP arrow at almost 195 ft./s (which I seriously doubt!) at a measly 37.8 FPE.. and if memory serves, my actual output with that bow (about 525 grains on the arrow) at around 165 ft./s, according to the chrono, works out to 31.4 FPE....

And silly me, I went Elk hunting and thought I was good to go.

If you didn’t shoot an elk, guess you were good to go.

I think some of you gentlemen like doing math problems more than shooting your bow. :)

"Interesting (to me, anyway) that they would run hard until they drop… What good is it to be an Apex predator if you’re going to run from stuff you can’t even see?"

Matt, your lack of experience is showing

X2 with Sawtooth.

;-)

I believe hunters' need for heavy bows are based on one or both of two things: 1 - those who can pull 60lb bows are apt to erroneously think that much is needed. 2 - heavy bow shooters have forgotten that a bow is not a gun and an arrow is not a bullet. The "killing" capability of the two are based on two very different factors.

A gun firing a light projectile at maximum velocity is deadly efficient. But so is a broadhead at any speed that propells an arrow all the way through, such as shot from a 35lb bow, or a 70lb bow. Pass thru is pass thru. Velocity is of no consequence in bow hunting. A bullet and an arrow have totally different killing properties. Your 150 grain .308 bullet kills via shock and internal damage. An arrow kills by creating holes from which an animal can spill its life fluid. Be not proud of your ability to shoot a heavy bow. The bear your neighbor shot with a 35 will be no less of a hunter.

"The bear your neighbor shot with a 35 will be no less of a hunter."

No, but other than Larry Hatfield nobody said: I did it!

Is it possible? Yes, if you check all the boxes from arrow type to patience in choosing when to shot. Is the way to do it? From what I see is just talk no action

And btw, no neighbours for me shooting bears with #35 bow all the way down to the borders.

"LOL"

X2 with Draven.

I shoot the same 450 gr. cedar arrows out of a couple different bows. One is a 38 pound Coypup longbow, a 40 pound Martin Stealth longbow, a 45 pound Texas Recurve, and 44 pond Great Plains longbow. Now I'm not a scientist or a Math genius but to me there isn't much difference 20 yards and closer between all four bows. When you go past 30 yards there is a big difference. I also shoot the same arrows out of my self bows and they perform well out to 15 yards. I would shoot a Bear with all of these bow 15 yards and closer, past 20 yards I'd wouldn't shoot.

I don’t wanna shock anybody, but I’m not at all embarrassed to admit that I have no experience hunting bears.

I guess I don’t consider that a character defect.

It makes sense to me that a deer or an Elk would haul ass getting away from “something” that had just thumped it hard enough to break a rib or two and that they would continue at full throttle ’til they drop, especially if they are graying out. Seems a likely hard-wired response. Double that if the arrow fails to pass through.

But a predator? Maybeso, maybeso not.

Deer & Elk don’t necessarily run AT ALL when fatally hit, so why mightn’t a bear pull up to see what’s what if there was no pursuer? Seems a reasonable question.

The bear in the video sure didn’t seem too bothered by getting slapped on the flank with that guy’s first arrow - more just kinda irritated at being told to go away - although the first bear didn’t stick around long after (possibly?) getting clipped on that near leg/paw.

And FWIW, if I do recall correctly that Larry has acknowledged that he was drawing that “#35” bow to more like #48-#49, I guess maybe NOBODY is claiming to have done it....

I'm still waiting to see a picture of or hear from anyone who has ACTUALLY killed a bear with a 35# bow.

I could claim to be a brain surgeon a million times but I highly doubt anyone with any sense would let me carve into their coconut.

X 2 SUPERNAUT!!!!!!!

Claiming is one thing, proving is another matter.

"I'm still waiting to see a picture of or hear from anyone who has ACTUALLY killed a bear with a 35# bow."

It is a picture here of a girl who shot a bear with less than #35 bow. It was a bad shot that went in the jugular and killed the bear, but this is not something a hunter would want to do. And yes, I've read about bears shot with Bear whole glass bows but in my book that's something achievable for someone who knows bears and stalks them when is hunting.

Draven, I had heard of the bear killed by that girl with the bad shot and agree it is not something a hunter would want to do.

I've also read many claims here of guys killing "hundreds of (insert your animal of choice)" and the funny thing is I don't recall any evidence to support a vast majority of these claims. People are free to claim what they want just like I'm free to believe them....or not.

Last spring I killed a big bear with a 35 pound recurve. He was facing me at about 30 yards or so. The bear stood up on its hind legs to get a better look at me. I then drew and aimed just to loosen my muscles to get ready for the shot. As I was bringing the bow down, a bee stung me in my neck causing me to accidently release the arrow. The scary sharp broadhead hit him in the testicles. That got him to charge me. Luckily i was able to release another arrow that caught him in the boiler plate. That day was unbelievable. I'm sure you all have had such days.

As long as I can draw more weight I will but a friend of mine has taken 2 decent sized bears with a 37 lbs longbow. He took more with heavier bows but found with close shots over bait the 37lb was enough for making two holes. I also know of some bears taken with self bows that I know performance wise can be topped by most modern 35lb recurves.

“ I had heard of the bear killed by that girl with the bad shot and agree it is not something a hunter would want to do.”

I’m confused… How did that arrow ever get launched in the first place?

Dig around the internet and you can find several videos of Tracy Dunn, the wife of Bill Dunn, former owner of grizzly broadheads and Zipper bows killing quite a few bears with Bows around #35 at her shortish draw length. I was in camp when she shot her last one and that arrow doesn’t appear if it even slows down on it’s way through a 6’ square black bear. Really opened my eyes to what lighter bows could do.

All kidding aside the problem with threads like this is you'll always hear about the successes, BUT you'll never hear about the failures. For how many successes how many failures were there ? If the game laws in your state says it's legal then go for it.

Geezer, the pod was an ill-formed idea back in the 70s. I think Fred Bear even toyed with the idea. It was a rubber sheath in the back of the broadhead and contained Succinylcholine which is a muscle relaxant. It would enter the bloodstream of the animal and paralyze it's lungs very quickly. It was quickly outlawed in most states cue to safety is ethical issues. It wasn't a poison and didn't affect the meat of the animal.

Well guys if you can wait till the end of September I’ll show you my beer. ???? ??

That's a nice +200lbs teddy bear right there. PS I wouldn't shoot scavenger bears for their meat though

Here is a nice size one that was raiding my buddies bird feeders a few years ago.

Here is another one that went through that same buddies yard.

Sorry not buying that. What do you think her draw length is? What do you think the weight of the bow is at her draw length. The bow is bigger then she is so the performance of the bow is going to be really bad. Just to name a few things. Miracles can happen but I find this very hard to believe,And should not be promoted in any way shape or form.

Ron, that’s the pic circulating with the story behind of killing the bear shooting it in the neck. Care to tell us what draw weight you shot your bears?

I agree with A TAG NOWAY!!!

If I don't think I can do it then it can't be done.

Uh oh

Uh oh

I've heard stories of people surviving free falls from airplanes when their chutes didn't deploy. I'm not going to recommend jumping out an airplane without a parachute.

If it's legal to hunt bear with a 35# bow, go for it.

The man stated he wanted to kill a bear with his traditional bow but because of a shoulder problem he can't physically shoot only 35 or a little more pounds.

Just to note Most encouraging advice has come from experienced hunters who know it is doable. Most advice against it comes from those with little hunting experience.

I miss the good old days. When you could have an opinion without offending somebody. Or belittling somebody. You know what they say about opinions; they're like butt holes and everybody's got one.

When it comes to the pros or cons listening to advice from people that have never killed a bear with a 35# bow is a waste of time. If someone has never killed a bear with a 35# bow I guess their opinion is mute no matter what side of the issue they're on.

The OP is that " I know it can be done, but just need a little encouragement". 147 posts later, nobody has challenged the "it can be done" component. There has, however, been less than universal encouragement. I took some game with shots as a younger man that I would not take now, not because they are any less 'possible', but because I give more thought to the consequences of my being less 'lucky'. As Ron said, waiting -if necessary - for the right shot, and passing up the shots that aren't right, is the best we can do, and he's proven that over decades.

"Just to note Most encouraging advice has come from experienced hunters who know it is doable. Most advice against it comes from those with little hunting experience."

You shot 4 bears in Ontario with #35? No. You encourage the person not even knowing how he shoots or what type of hunting is doing: spot and stalk or hunting over bait. You don't even know if the bears were hunted or not - this is influencing their behaviour. It is a post here where someone treed a bear and had to shoot 4 or 5 times. IF you hunt over a bait you might get a bear giving you the perfect shot or it might not with any type of bow weight.

PS We can argue here until the end of the world, the reality hits the fan when he will talk with a bear hunter outfitter. Will not be up to us, but him.

Or he goes alone

Craig, over the bait up in a tree at right distance waiting for the right moment it is possible. Are there better choices? I think so, but if he "needs" to hunt that bear - like in bucket list need - good luck

Craig and Ron. Thank you. I’d like to say something else but I’m keeping my hothead mouth shut. ??????????

Draven, did the OP say he was using a guide? I didn't see that. In his case it might not be up to a guide at all. If he's like me, he would not consider a guide for any hunt. Especially if he wanted to tell me I could not use a 35. Only Buck dancer knows if he is capable of picking his shot to put an arrow into a bear. I'm beginning to think he regrets having asked for advice.

In life you don't get the answer you want to hear. If he had no doubts in his choice he wouldn't even be here asking. Raise your hand how many of you shot a bear with #35 bow - this should clear the waters in no time.

Nope and never would even try.

Let 'er rip , tater ship . It's a bear , not a battleship. Good luck and have fun !

My injury was a dislocated shoulder broken humerus bone torn rotator cuff and nerve damage due to a hard for one year ago I’m just glad I can use my arm again and teaching myself to shoot lefty and I’m so happy I can shoot again by the time September gets here I’ll probably be shooting 40+ is that good enough for you guys and my four years in bear camp two bears were hit with a compound bow lost at least three or four or shot with crossbows lost all war with rage broadhead. And I earned the nickname no draw then because I was very selective on the size of bears and shot placement all while shooting 60 pound long bows John Schultz parting shot in Sunset Hills. And yes Draven I know what I’m doing. Sorry it doesn’t meet with your approval.

Keep calm and breath slow and read this message:

Craig, over the bait up in a tree at right distance waiting for the right moment it is possible. Are there better choices? I think so, but if he "needs" to hunt that bear - like in bucket list need - good luck

Buckdancer, I appreciate that you asked the question about bow weight because it's an important one not just for bear but hunting in general (part of the ethics thing). There's been good input and despite some close calls on mudslinging (to be expected...after all this is the LeatherWall) it's true there are reasonable arguments to be made as far as adequacy goes. Guess I'll just offer a few more points to ponder and call it good. Hopefully folks will think about (open minds are a beautiful thing, just don't let any good stuff leak out) their own personal choices on the subject before deciding what to hunt with.

1.) State regs on archery gear are only MINIMUMS, and a quick review of that situation shows that alot of states (by my count 21 +/-) have ZERO minimums on bow weight. Only SIX states (yeah, six) have any minimums at all on ARROW weight, and without these two components its impossible to make any sound judgements on things like adequacy, K.E., momentum and the other things that affect kills vs. wounds (I'm discounting other variables and anecdotal stories here as they are, well, not provable in the collective sense). Aside from broadhead choice you could literally use ANYTHING of any size, weight or material for an arrow shaft and be fine for hunting ALL game in all but those six states...sort of a collective governmental punt on being responsible (no surprise there). No state requires more than 50# to hunt any animal, including moose and grizz. Legal not smart, bureaucratic not science or common-sense-based, and overall an irresponsible approach that grossly deflects responsibility to the individual hunter (new or experienced) for selecting safe/effective/adequate equipment to hunt and kill (or wound) with bows and arrows. Hmmmm...

2.) From grown men/women with many years of hunting and shooting experience (bunnies to buffalo) to little boys and girls on their first trip to the backyard pop-up blind or bait pile with daddy, lots of folks shoot at big game with lightweight archery gear every single year. Same for lightweight firearms. The issue isn't really whether it's doable (clearly it is both legally and physically), it's whether it makes sense to do. From a 'success' standpoint (odds of killing), science standpoint (laws of physics) and yes ethical standpoint (wounded/ suffering/ wasted game potential) it's as much a question of hunter mindset as it is hunter freedom to choose. That one has a physical disability that precludes use of normal/heavier gear truly is not the issue, since unlike survival situations there's there's almost always other weapon options for sport hunting. It's clear we can't rely on government bureaucrats to make sound decisions for us. But whether our own decisions are any better than theirs, well, that's up to each of us to wrestle with/fight over. Ya' know, that 'do what's right' thing does matter, even if mostly to ourselves.

Note to GF, thanks for the feedback re the K.E. math. I'm not a math professor but did incorporate equation formats recommended by three sources in the know, including both Easton and the Ashby study. One more point on the math stuff for those who were interested, K.E. is more suited for assessing bow efficiency (which was closest to the main topic here) while momentum is better suited for assessing arrow penetration...a function of arrow weight and actually kind of a subset of the efficiency issue. Both are very important in the overall...and certainly much more useful/logical to apply than most state approaches to what's adequate.

Thanks again Buckdancer for the vine, and to those who contributed. Maybe between the all of us we can get at least some of the states to take notice of how sucky their archery regs are and do their jobs a little better. On second thought probly' not, lol.

Buckdancer, good luck and great hunt, whatever poundage you are able to shoot. Don’t worry about what anyone else thinks, especially those who don’t do it themselves. Apparently they are a plenty.

Unless I misread your last post, Buckdancer, in four years in bear camp BEFORE you injured your shoulder, you shot but did not recover either 5 or 6 bears shot with a compound bow or crossbow and an implication that the Rage broadhead was the culprit. This information doesn't exactly elicit hearty encouragement for going back with a 35-40 # bow, now shooting left-handed with an injured right shoulder. I encourage you to practice as often as you can.

Grizz, around here there is nothing to hunt but black bears and moose. What some are seeing in a bear camp once in their life time, it is yearly reality here - maybe that's the reason if you can't shoot a #50 on the fingers bow here you don't hunt bear legally.

Yep thanks again Craig they were other bow hunters in camp that did this I have not even taken a shot yet as I stated

Most states dropped their minimums when compounds broke the 300fps mark. A good example is Colorado. Their minimums were 40 deer and 50 for bear and elk. Now their is none. Other states that had/have 35lb minimums were notorious for very small deer. We go overboard wounding animals you might see minimums come back for stickbows. Probably not tho since its about selling licenses and not whats humane.

Draven, I don’t think I mentioned any names. I’m sure you’re quite the expert.

Grizz, there are few who think the bear is a black deer. Yes, in very particular conditions that #35 can be as good as #60. But I have a question: Instead asking here if it makes sense, why not asking the guys he shared the camp with for their opinion - this includes the outfiter’s And to end this, whatever happens down south stays downsouth, so have a perfect Happy Easter

Now if I said that about Canadians, you’d get your draws in a wad. Have a nice day and bless your little heart.

One last opinion to add regarding state bow weight minimums.

I don't know for sure but suspect that most states use some combination of: 1.) Simply copying what other states do (kinda' like changing underwear with the guy next to them) and b.) soliciting the opinions of a subset of hunters/ manufacturers/ administrators with at least some knowledge of archery hunting/hunting equipment/hunting results including general public input, lost vs. recovered deer studies, bow performance, etc. Probably not much of "b" going on. But, I'd also guess that whatever 'real' information is applied relates largely to hunting with a compound, since that is what most hunting archers use.

Since the average compound setup is more efficient (better/higher K.E. and momentum numbers) than the average longbow or recurve setup, from an adequacy perspective those state minimums are therefore even worse (lower) than what they appear. I.e., that 30 or 35# bow weight minimum assumes compound efficiency. Your trad bow will likely be less than that...probably ALOT less...if short-drawing or using very light arrows.

A better approach to state minimums would be to incorporate both bow weight and finished arrow weight into the rules and to use K.E. /momentum numbers to reflect minimums, rather than only bow weight. That, assuming other things being equal, would provide a more measurable and consistent means of ensuring that at least the gear (even if not necessarily the archer's hunting ability or mindset) is adequate for promoting clean kills. The ability/mindset aspects would need to be addressed in better hunter education and training programs.

"I’ll say it again. Regardless if your shooting a 300lb crossbow 90 lb compound or 35 lb recurve it’s the arrow and Broadhead that does the killing or not. The arrow simply does not care what bow is shooting it. "

I disagree. Lay an arrow with a sharp broadhead (your choice of arrow and broadhead of course) on it on the ground in front of you. I don't think it will kill anything. Now when you add the bow, you can do something. The more energy the bow imparts to the arrow, the more lethal the arrow/broadhead CAN be.

The arrow may not care what bow is shooting it, but the archer should.

The minimum draw weight for Colorado is 35# per the 2021 regulations.

In WI, my home state and where I shot my first bear in 1969 with 45# the bow weight minimum has been for 70+ years and still is 30#. There have been lots of deer and bear killed here with less than 40# bows. If I get drawn for a tag next year I'll be hunting with 30-35# and 500 grain arrows.

Yes deer are relatively easy to penetrate, but so are bear. Either ones ribs are not that thick. The biggest issue with deer is where to shoot them-its not tuck it right behind the leg like deer. Bear are constructed similar to humans, that is the front legs are attached to the top/front of rib cage, whereas deer are attached farther back.

Imagine humans on all fours so shooting us in the arm pit will miss the heart/lungs. One has to aim/shoot farther back. Actually take the length of body and divide that in half, then on a broadside aim/shoot just forward of this halfway point and halfway between back and belly. If quartering away, my preferred shot, aim/shoot behind the halfway point.

Most important, a scary sharp cut on contact broadhead, my preference is 3 blade, mounted on a heavy arrow does the killing. Answer this question, would you stand in front of a 30# bow? I would not even stand in front of a 15# bow with a scary sharp arrow, or even a field tip for that matter.

Just think of the penetration a target tipped arrows gets on dense foam targets? Foam is way denser than a live animals skin/ribs and flesh/lungs.

Alot of arguing for nothing. He didn't want opinions except the ones who said go for it.

Hey DNEWER what in the world is that ???? Omg for REAL?

Kelly very good post

Kelly very good post

“My experience is a devastating wound is required to produce an adequate blood trail for tracking.“

So how, exactly, does one go about defining “devastating”??

This seems similar to my earlier question about how you define “perfect”.

And how do you calculate how much momentum or how many foot pounds of energy might be required to compensate for that?

I never got an answer to the first question, so I guess I won’t hold my breath waiting for an answer to the second. Not sure what KE and momentum REALLY have to do with either one, though. 2 holes is 2 holes, right? And what happens in between the two seems to be all there really is to it....

GLF X2

To be honest gf I use snuffers for bear because where I hunt you can walk within 5 yards of a downed bear and never see it. I've helped track bears shot with 2 blades that came out low and still left very little blood. Besides fat, especially on fall hunts, filling the hole you have lots of hair absorbing blood. Snuffers leave such a large hole theres plenty of blood. Anyhow thats what i figured he meant by devastating.

I really don't know. I have this policy.

I don't hunt anything that can hunt me back! :)

Jawge

Makes sense to me, Gary!

I think if I were to go after one, I would probably grab an Ace Super Express or maybe a snuffer if I can find one… Or something similar.

With my bows about #48, #52/#53, and #62, I think I could pull that off. ;)

This thread has gone so far afield that I decided for my First Shot today, I would take a pretty close shot on a bear from an elevated position. So I just walked up to the closest stake at the club, which (after the fact!) I paced off at 16.

Scoring rings aside....How’d I do?

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