Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Deep hook need carity

Messages posted to thread:
Crow#2 08-Jan-21
9/10 Broke 08-Jan-21
D.Lewis aka tonto59 08-Jan-21
Runner 09-Jan-21
deerhunt51 09-Jan-21
bowhunt 09-Jan-21
Dan In MI 09-Jan-21
olddogrib 09-Jan-21
longbow1968 09-Jan-21
Runner 09-Jan-21
Pdiddly 09-Jan-21
Bowmania 09-Jan-21
fdp 09-Jan-21
Crow#2 09-Jan-21
Pdiddly 09-Jan-21
George Tsoukalas 09-Jan-21
JusPassin 09-Jan-21
Rhonocerous 09-Jan-21
Dean 09-Jan-21
GF 09-Jan-21
Wild Bill 09-Jan-21
Eskanto 09-Jan-21
Rhonocerous 13-Jan-21
fdp 13-Jan-21
Brassbandit 13-Jan-21
Dartwick 13-Jan-21
fdp 13-Jan-21
arrowchucker 14-Jan-21
Ron LaClair 14-Jan-21
Pdiddly 14-Jan-21
shortdraw 14-Jan-21
From: Crow#2
Date: 08-Jan-21




Ok got to reading about lon Stanton and john schultz and then got directed to some other site dont know why but what gets me is some of the guys were saying a deep hook is in the mid section second crease in the fingers. They were staying that a deep hook was definitely not the first crease of the fingers. That's their words. Ok which is it? I can't imagine using the second crease.

From: 9/10 Broke Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 08-Jan-21




What works for me is deep in the crease of the first joint.

From: D.Lewis aka tonto59
Date: 08-Jan-21




Does it matter if you use a glove or a tab?

From: Runner
Date: 09-Jan-21




Some guys really do use that to define it. Most would just say the first joint.

From: deerhunt51
Date: 09-Jan-21




The first joint/crease is a deep hook.

From: bowhunt
Date: 09-Jan-21




1st joint.Fingers angled directly back toward shooter.

I know some who go just below the crease of 1st joint.1/8th inch or so

From: Dan In MI
Date: 09-Jan-21




Off the finger tip pads. You need to be at least at the joint.

If you fold your finger into a perfect U finger tip pads against your inner finger you'll see the crease of the first joint and the bone of middle of your finger are about the same in that position. Which is probably why you get two descriptions for nearly the same point.

From: olddogrib
Date: 09-Jan-21




Good luck getting a consensus on that one.....I gave up shortly after I came here.

P.S. don't waste your time with "what effect changing brace height has on dynamic spine" either, lol. The truth is none of us have the same anatomy, form, etc.(I won't bother you with two dozen more variables)...you just have to discover what works for you.

From: longbow1968
Date: 09-Jan-21




Think of that first crease as a pivot point. How much you rotate your fingertips back toward your face is what is considered deep or not. I will tell you this, anything you do to add tension in that draw hand is going to affect your left/right impact, so the goal is to pivot around that crease enough, but not too much.

From: Runner
Date: 09-Jan-21




I don't believe you can pivot independently from that point. Has to be the second joint that pivots.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 09-Jan-21




Crease of middle finger takes 60% of the load...crease of forefinger takes 35%. Ring finger may be in crease but mostly stabilizing and staying out of the way, taking 5% of the load. That’s how it feels to me...

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Jan-21




The hook is somewhat problematic because of the length difference of fingers. To add to that is the difference in the location of the joints, that the string rides in, on those different length fingers. If you look at that last sentence it rules out shooting with the string on the tips of the fingers. I'm not saying you can't shoot off the tips of your fingers, but I will say that you won't have as good a release as if you have a deep hook. (IF need be we could get into particulars to back up that statement, but it's kind of a no brainer to me, BUT then again this is the Leatherwall) Very much like shooting a glove, it puts you behind the 8-ball.

(Don't believe that last statement? Put your glove on and shoot through a chrono and then try a tab. The tab is faster, because you get off the string cleaner)

IF you look at your fingers with the Boy Scout salute, you'll most likely see 3 different locations of the first joint on each finger. My fingers has the first and third finger joints pretty close together with the middle being about a half inch different than the first. If I crook my fingers like they're holding the string, my second and third are almost in line. It does me no good, I want my joints in a straight line – but they're not!!!

If I go to Rick McKenney to see what I should do, he has a picture of all three joints in a row – straight line!!! Further he has the string on those three in a row joints riding on the inside of those joints. Meaning in the direction of the palm of the hand!!! Keep that in mind.

If I go to KSL, he starts off with a hook that can make things easier for the 'odd' jointed. In his book all the pictures of the hook, he has the string riding in the middle of the pad on the third finger. Guess what? It's easier to get two joints in a line then three.

Further, in the 'set' position ( bow at a 45 to the target with slight tension on the string) he says the first finger should have 70 to 80 % of the force of the bow. Then at full draw that distribution changes to 40-50-10. I don't think there's anyway to judge exactly what the percentage are exactly and it doesn't matter. BUT I think they are key to figuring out YOUR string placement.

One little diversion from the hook, which is also important. At the set position, the wrist is not straight. It should be cocked in, as in if you're right handed, the wrist should be bent to the left. What this does is when the draw starts the wrist straightens out, turning the string to the right and pushes the arrow into the riser/rest/strike plate. Especially important for kids that flex their forearm during the draw, which causes the arrow to come off the rest. (pinching down on the nock has nothing to do with this problem)

OK, back to hooking, taking the above into consideration here's what works for my fingers. On the third finger I have the string in the middle of the pad. Now, keep in mind that my middle finger joint is about a half an inch from the first finger joint. The string on the second finger rides on the inside of the joint (toward the palm) and the string is in the joint of the first finger.

If I think about the 80% in the set position I can feel it until I start to draw. Then at full draw it seems the string has rolled into the joint of the middle finger putting it in line with the first finger. The roll makes me feel that my strongest middle finger now has 50 % of the weight and the forefinger lost about half. There is method to this madness.

Once you have it figure out for your own fingers, there's no thinking involved. Your subconscious places the string where it needs to be. You first have to figure out what to tell your subconscious. Hopefully you'll have all joints in a row and be able to make things simple.

One last thing, the thumb and pinky are are cocked. Thumb down and pinky is pointed towards you. This should make the skin between the thumb and forefinger taught.

From: fdp
Date: 09-Jan-21




Crow, look up some video and pictures of Olympic archers. It is virtually impossible to get a concise, consistent verbal description same as it is for back tension, the release, and nearly everything else.

I suggest you get a copy of Vipers book. Using that as a reference is going to answer a LOT of the questions that you have been asking.

From: Crow#2
Date: 09-Jan-21




Thanks I will have to get Vipers book.

From: Pdiddly
Date: 09-Jan-21

Pdiddly's embedded Photo



Good image that helped me...

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 09-Jan-21




I've always shot the deep hook at the first joint of my fingers even when I did not know what it was. It just seemed natural for me. Jawge

From: JusPassin
Date: 09-Jan-21




There is always someone who can find a way to take things to the extreme.

From: Rhonocerous
Date: 09-Jan-21




What's the name of Viper's book? Thanks, Ron

From: Dean
Date: 09-Jan-21




Shooting the Stickbow...best investment I ever made, even better than Bitcoin!

http://www.shootingthestickbow.com/

From: GF
Date: 09-Jan-21




Shooting the Stickbow - Anthony Camara

From: Wild Bill
Date: 09-Jan-21




pdiddly,

IMHO, your illustration is a biased rendition. That is, to suggest that the finger pad is cleared when the joint is the starting place for the slip off the tab. I don't buy that, because, while I have tried that, it doesn't feel that way to me. That form of release requires the string to push the finger tips away from the string path.

However, when the string leaves the "pad" and tab, not the joint, the distance traveled over the remaining pad/tab is less, and thus, less of any finger is pushed out of the string path.

Even the verticle lines for the pad illuatration are not there, which exagerates the supposed "excessive deflection." The pad/cushion is depressed/reduced, rather than a "bulge".

I'm not denying the visual may be helpful to you, I'm just saying it doesn't ring true to my experience.

From: Eskanto
Date: 09-Jan-21

Eskanto's embedded Photo



I shoot mostly 3 under with a tab these days. I took these fotos with bare fingers to show how I grip the string. I start with the string in the joints nearest to the palm and, as I draw, the string "rolls" to the furthest joints by the time I reach anchor. At anchor, my fingers are hooked enough that my fingernails are resting basically flat against my cheek. The weight on my fingers is about 50-40-10% at anchor. I'm sure everyone is different to varying degrees, but this way works for me.

From: Rhonocerous
Date: 13-Jan-21




Been busy and just getting back. Dean, GF - Thanks for the book name and link. I came up with a sore middle finger (bottom of 1st pad at joint, with 3 under) while shooting a lot (a couple - few hundred arrows a day) on time off with nowhere to go in a pandemic. The info here has already helped and the book will help for sure with my grip/release and more. Thanks, Ron

From: fdp
Date: 13-Jan-21




When shooting 3 under the majority of the load should be on the index finger. Conversely when shooting split the majority of the weight should be on the middle finger.

Make it a point when you take your grip on the string to distribute the load that way and your release should become more and more clean.

From: Brassbandit
Date: 13-Jan-21




fdp Tom Clum does not agree with your weight distribution on your fingers for 3 under.

From: Dartwick
Date: 13-Jan-21




Deep hook nominally goes in the distal crease of the first 3 fingers.

Then there is reality.

1 Most people actually place the string about 1/16 of an inch(maybe less) back from the crease because its more comfortable.

2 Because not everyone fingers are the same many people just let the ring finger sit where may. Its ok because the ring finger doesnt hold much weight and most is there to protect the middle finger from the string.

From: fdp
Date: 13-Jan-21




And that's fine. I don't agree With his description of some things either.:)

From: arrowchucker
Date: 14-Jan-21




Eskanto has it right. My fingers look just like that! I cut the tendon on my right index finger. It only bend about 90 degrees. The ONLY way anyone can consistently duplicate a hook is to close your fingers ALL THE WAY,,, Prove me wrong! There is no way to have 30% on top, 60% on middle, 10% on bottom or whatever you number you try! No one can detect or correct for a couple % points on which finger!, The only way to be 100% the same is close them ALL the way. May feel weird at first, but in a few rounds it’s natural. Arrowchucker

From: Ron LaClair
Date: 14-Jan-21




I've been shooting with a deep hook for over 60 years. I would never have gotten to the 500 class without it

From: Pdiddly
Date: 14-Jan-21




Wild Bill...not my graphic. Just found it but I think it is very helpful. So, to be clear, you shoot from your fingertips? That’s what I gathered from your explanation...

From: shortdraw
Date: 14-Jan-21




Ron you are a great shot, show a picture of your deep hook you use.





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