From: Pelón
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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I'm tuning arrows for the first time and decided to go with XX75 500 spine because of the spine calculator on 3 rivers. I'm shooting a Bear Montana longbow and an Old Mountain Mesa longbow, both at #50. I draw 30". My arrows are full length. I have 150 grain broadheads. Can anyone give me a ballpark estimate of what length do you suppose I'll end up cutting them to? Thank you!
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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So you're drawing closer to 55'ish pounds, or is the 50# at your draw? If they are 50# @ 28 you may be flirting with too soft a spine, but shooting will show that one way or the other. Obviously you will need an arrow longer than 30". At 31", if using low stretch strings, I suspect you're going to be at the top end for that arrow....a 2016. I would think you could get them to work shooting off the shelf though or building out the side plate. Personally I would opt for 2117 at 31" for that setup.
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From: GF
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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For me, #52-#53 actual and 125 gr points is a 28” arrow in a 2016, so I’d agree with George that it’s going to depend on how much you build out your plate and how particular you are prepared to be in your tuning.
But that arrow at 30-plus inches is plenty heavy enough for your poundage even if you dial back to a 100-grain point; field points are cheap and if you want to hunt with the 150s that you have, you have about 9 months ahead of you to bust up and/or lose the 2016s and tune into a 2117 (aka 400), so (JMO) you’re off to a perfectly good start...
Also, if you’ve been limiting your options to GameGettter IIs, maybe try plugging in some numbers for 2114s and 2018s while you’re at it. The 14s can be a bit fragile on a rocky 3D course; 18s are fairly tank-like. And both the 14s and the 17s will probably allow you to trim off enough to foot your carbons with.
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From: GF
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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For me, #52-#53 actual and 125 gr points is a 28” arrow in a 2016, so I’d agree with George that it’s going to depend on how much you build out your plate and how particular you are prepared to be in your tuning.
But that arrow at 30-plus inches is plenty heavy enough for your poundage even if you dial back to a 100-grain point; field points are cheap and if you want to hunt with the 150s that you have, you have about 9 months ahead of you to bust up and/or lose the 2016s and tune into a 2117 (aka 400), so (JMO) you’re off to a perfectly good start...
Also, if you’ve been limiting your options to GameGettter IIs, maybe try plugging in some numbers for 2114s and 2018s while you’re at it. The 14s can be a bit fragile on a rocky 3D course; 18s are fairly tank-like. And both the 14s and the 17s will probably allow you to trim off enough to foot your carbons with.
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From: bigdog21
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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with george.. even if it is 50@30 with a 150gr and 31" arrow you are under spin.
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From: DanaC
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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Shoot 'em first, depending on your exact set-up and release they might shoot fine.
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From: Viper
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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P -
Given the bow you're using, the arrows, full length, are most likely correct.
Viper out.
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From: goldentrout_one
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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If it's 50 lb at 30", I'm guessing you'd need at least a 2018, if it was me I'd anticipate ending up with a 2117. If the bows are 50 at 28", I bet 2117 is where you'll end up (400 spine).
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From: Pelón
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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That's helpful. I imagine that dropping to a 125 grain broadhead helps a little, correct? But it also sounds like the general consensus is that a 2117 is a better place to start for trying to really tune arrows for the first time...yes?
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From: Therifleman
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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Chris, sent you a PM.
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From: GF
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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FWIW.... If Viper says you’re There.... You’re There.
You may be able to prove at some point that you need something a little stiffer.... but until you have incontrovertible evidence, just enjoy what you have. Either that, or buy yourself a broader assortment of spines and points and see what you can learn.
I guess that’s one respect in which those of us with shorter draws have an advantage… More options for adjusting dynamic spine by cutting to length.
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From: stagetek
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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I don't understand why with a 30" draw your being advised to leave them full length, which I believe is 32". And, then being told they may still be too weak. I would think you should cut them to 31". I also think, by doing that, you will have no problem getting a 2018 to fly just fine. Maybe I'm missing something. I shoot 47-51# bows, with a 30.5" draw, cut my 2018's to 31 1/4", use 125 gr. heads and they fly like darts.
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From: i
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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XX75 500 spine would likely be Easton's XX75 2016.
Actual deflection is 0.531".
i love how Easton made it all even more confusing.
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From: Viper
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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Guys -
He's shooting a Bear Montana (sorry don't know anything about the other one), nowhere near centershot, and from the factory, not exactly a speed demon. For a good recurve 55# @ 31" does = a 2117, but that ain't what he has.
Viper out.
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From: stagetek
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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Well then, I guess that's what I was missing.
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From: bigdog21
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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yes the 150gr. is hurting you. 125 are 100 gr will possable work fine and you really dont need the wieght with them arrows
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From: i
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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The Bear Montana is advertised as being cut to centre. Then add about 1/8" for leather strike plate (?).
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From: fdp
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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So that would put it 1/8" before center which would lower the spine requirement by 2 spines.
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From: Pelón
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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I got the inserts glued in and tested out the XX75 500's (full length) and they flew great! A little nock high...but the left to right wiggle was minimal. I'm going to have my wife film the arrow flight in slo-mo over my shoulder tomorrow and see what that shows. Thank you all. These arrows were a big investment for my budget, so I really appreciate your help.
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From: GF
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Date: 08-Jan-21 |
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“ These arrows were a big investment for my budget, so I really appreciate your help.”
I know the feeling!! As does probably every guy here who ever had kids.....
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 09-Jan-21 |
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The nock high can be tuned out, and there should be no wiggle. Just need to work on the tuning. I do know about budget constraints and can't throw money around like a drunken sailor either. Enjoy those arrows.
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From: Gray Goose Shaft
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Date: 09-Jan-21 |
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Why guess at tuning? Shoot the arrows and make adjustments.
Bareshaft tuning will tell you if your bow is stronger than your arrows, weaker, or just right. Take a little time to read through the procedure and you will understand a much more about archery for the rest of your archery career. There are a lot more adjustments that can be made other than arrow length.
Here is good stuff for free: https://www.fenderarchery.com/blogs/archery-info/basic-tuning
Happy shooting.
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From: Viper
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Date: 09-Jan-21 |
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i -
Center cut and centershot are not the same thing.
In fact, a bow that's cut "to center(line)" can't be centershot, unless of course, the arrow has a 0" diameter ;^)
Viper out.
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From: i
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Date: 09-Jan-21 |
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Right you are V - thanks for the reminder of those two terms. Easy to mix up. Ah, the ambiguity of centreshot; it is somewhat dependent on the arrow diameter being used.
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From: GF
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Date: 09-Jan-21 |
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“ Bareshaft tuning will tell you if....”
Yes, it certainly will.... but it’s only as informative as you are consistent & accurate.
There is a huge gap between someone who is new to the sport entirely and has read up on tuning enough to know that it’s “important”, but they have no idea where to start with arrow and point weight selection or how far off they can actually be and still get perfectly adequate flight for learning how to shoot pretty much down the middle… And someone who has been shooting for quite a while and is beginning to suspect that maybe their results would improve if they were to be certain that they were properly tuned.
Very few posters provide much information as to where they are starting from, so it’s very difficult to know whether all of our best intentions are actually helpful or if we are just piling on to someone’s concerns over whether they know enough to be even messing with this stuff…
And I say that as one who is probably more guilty of it than most! So if you think you see me pointing any fingers, you can be fairly well assured that I’m standing in front of a mirror....
I’m going to surmise that the OP here is just starting out and isn’t in a good position to buy 4 complete arrows in each of the likely options and then strip the fletchings off of half of them. That would be pretty costly, though not on par with a fletching jig and 3 dozen feathers, and points in 3 or 4 weights and all that jazz....
So if I just wanted to get started and I had a very knowledgeable coach who was familiar with with my equipment telling me to take what I had in hand and go shoot it with good confidence... I would listen to him every time.
And maybe even buy a copy of his book.
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From: Therifleman
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Date: 09-Jan-21 |
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Great advice from Gray Goose Shaft.
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From: Pelón
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Date: 09-Jan-21 |
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OK...this is really fun. These are the first arrows I've shot that weren't purchased from a yard sale and the difference is amazing. I'm starting to see what all the fuss is about.
So here's my follow up question: I'm eventually going to save up for another batch of arrows to tinker with...should they be the next stiffer XX75 in line (the 400/2117) so that I can learn how that one change effects everything? That seems logical to me, but I'm asking for input. Thanks again!
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From: Glunt@work
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Date: 09-Jan-21 |
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I have a bunch of bows from 50# - 57# with all sorts of different designs and shelf cuts. I can get a .500 spine arrow flying well from them all. Most with a 145Gr point, 29.5" arrow.
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From: Viper
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Date: 09-Jan-21 |
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Pelon -
I wouldn't buy any more arrows, unless you really want to of course.
Use what you have and see how it goes. While they should be close enough, or even right on, WHEN you get to formal tuning, THEN you'll know if YOU need stiffer or weaker.
Viper out.
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From: GF
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Date: 09-Jan-21 |
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JMO.....
At this point, I would focus my efforts (if I were the OP) on finding a comfortable anchor point that allows for verifying that my eyeball, nock, point and target are all in the same plane, and practice shooting at a vertical line down the middle of my target.
I find it really helpful to be able to see a straight line of the arrow through the middle of the target (I’m big fan of checking the alignment deliberately, but it can probably happen in your peripheral vision without even thinking about it ).
If you learn to shoot down the middle that way, then when you start trying to tune, you’ll know that there’s a reason that your arrows don’t all hit down the middle.
Which (last I checked) is pretty much the point of the exercise here…
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From: GF
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Date: 09-Jan-21 |
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Wish I’d been around to give it to myself 30-some years ago..... LOL
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From: Pelón
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Date: 09-Jan-21 |
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This is really great. Thank you all so much.
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From: overspined
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Date: 10-Jan-21 |
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I do what riverwolf said. Keep some around so tuning takes minutes and the struggle goes away. Hint: for many hours of frustration go get some carbons;)
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From: GF
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Date: 10-Jan-21 |
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Bernie - let him figure out shooting down the middle first.
I doubt that anyone who has been doing this since before the age of the internet ever even THOUGHT about bare-shafting until they were a good number of years down the road; and it’s clear from the inevitable naysayer responses that come up on every related thread that there are plenty of regular shooters here who are perfectly happy with their accuracy and have never attempted or even considered it.
Not that I don’t think that a lot of guys could stand to benefit from asking more of themselves, but field points and a fairly generous fletching job (say 4” and up) will offset a pretty considerable spine imbalance for a long time. BTDT
JMO, suggesting that a new Stickbow shooter should look at bare-shafting right off the bat is even worse an idea than encouraging them to “ignore” their arrow as they are learning to shoot. If you don’t know where you had it pointed when you let it go, you have no way of knowing WHY you hit or missed your mark. That’s like playing a slot machine thinking that you can learn to win every time if you just learn exactly how to pull the lever (and we all know damn well that it’s all about how you RELEASE it. Duh.)
When you get around to bare-shafting, you have to be to the point where you can safely assume that your misses are coming down to Spine, and Spine ONLY.
You don’t have to be perfect, but you DO have to be consistent enough to identify a meaningful pattern in the data.
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From: Kelly
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Date: 11-Jan-21 |
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If you do want to try another set of shafts I’d go with 2115’s instead. They are halfway in between 2016’s and 2117’s. The 2115 is more closely the next step stiffer than the 2016’s you are currently shooting. Good luck!
Oh, do you really draw 30” when you are concentrating on shooting, not on how far you are drawing the bow? Have your wife film that too.
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From: Pelon
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Date: 22-Nov-21 |
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I just came back and reread all the great advice you guys shared. Thank you so much! I'm learning that the learning curve is a lot slower than I expected. There are SO many variables. I stuck with the XX75 500's and spent the last 10 months just trying to get my draw, form and anchor to be consistent...I think that has had more to do with getting the arrows to go where I want them to go than anything else. Again, thank you all for your help.
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From: Corax_latrans
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Date: 22-Nov-21 |
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“ I think that has had more to do with getting the arrows to go where I want them to go than anything else.”
Without a doubt.
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