Maybe I’m just too suspicious, but I’ve noticed that usually, negative comments about a subject tend to be related to the speakers’ own insecurities about the whole thing.

So just as a for-instance, consider the low regard in which “paper punchers“ are held by so many “Real Hunters“ who seem to be convinced that learning to shoot good scores on paper poses a threat to their competence under hunting conditions.

Which is, of course, absurd.

But here’s what got me thinking about this…

On another thread, someone made a comment about shooting 10 inch groups and improving accuracy by 30% resulting in 7 inch groups. But it doesn’t work that way.

Because if you do the math, it turns out that a 7 inch group is a bit less than HALF the size of a 10 inch group. And that’s why it can seem so maddeningly difficult to shrink your groups from 8 inches down to six. It doesn’t seem like that much of a difference - just an inch on either side... but the reality is that a 6 inch “pie plate“ is only 9/16 the size of an 8” plate.

And on the other hand.... Let’s say that a new shooter is starting out and their average group truly is right around 10 inches. Most people, while they are learning, like to see some signs of progress. But most people aren’t going to take the time to measure the outside spread of their groups and keep a record of how big those are. And even if they did, most people would be less than thrilled to discover that their 10 inch groups had shrunk by a half inch on either side. I mean, really… A half an inch? So what? Obviously not getting anywhere at all… Right?

But as it turns out…

A 9 inch group is just about 20% smaller than a 10 inch group. That kind of a difference is likely to go undetected if you don’t measure all of your groups, but in my estimation, it is a clear sign a real progress being made. I mean, who here wouldn’t think it was a pretty big deal if they could get 20% off of the price of their next bow or their next dozen arrows?

Now, I know it’s not at all fashionable among “Trad“ shooters to keep score. I don’t know how many people I have seen here who say that they never fill out a scorecard on a 3-D course because they’re “just there to have fun“ or “just polishing things up for hunting”. A lot of guys here actually seem to believe that they are doing this as a matter of principle, rather than simply protecting their egos from the reality of how well/poorly they actually do shoot. Yeah. Right.

But frankly, I don’t think anyone can honestly claim to be trying to Get Better if they are not keeping score. Keeping score on a bull’s-eye target will tell you straight up how good you are, and it won’t cut you any slack; if you score every end and keep a record, you will see plain as day whether you are making any progress or not. And if you do the math, you might just discover that you are improving faster than you ever would have imagined if you had simply kept shooting at 3-D targets.

So that’s where I came up with my Wise Guy thread title. I think a lot of people I honestly don’t want to know how well they shoot, because they are afraid of what they might find out if they were to test themselves against anything as unforgiving as a bull’s-eye.

But I really think that the guys who are new to this and who want to get better would benefit from some regular work on bull’s-eye targets because if you do the math, you can figure out pretty quickly WHETHER you are improving and if so, by how much.

And I mean, really… If you’re trying to get better and keeping score makes it clear to you that you’re not making any progress, wouldn’t you rather know that so that you can adjust and address your issue instead of just continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result? Or if you really did shrink your average group from 10 inches to 9, wouldn’t you rather know that you had decreased your group size by 20% to keep yourself feeling positive about your progress so that it can continue?

I have to admit it… I had pretty nearly convinced myself that it wasn’t doing me any good to shoot paper targets over and over at 20 yards when what I really want is to be able to punch a deer or elk through the ribs at somewhere between 0 yards and about 30 or so.

But I’m starting to re-think that. Who’s with me?

Too much math for me. I like shooting and hunting with trad bows because its simple. I know when I am shooting poorly and when I am shooting well. I have zero desire to track it or see it expressed in numbers other than how many cubic inches of the freezer are filled or need filling.

I shoot 3Ds and enjoy occasionally keeping score/competing as it adds some pressure and thats good practice for the moment of truth.

But, archery should be fun and everyone gets to define what gives them satisfaction and enjoyment.

I don't keep score . there are no rings or score lines while stump shooting . If I hit the target , I pick a smaller one for the next shot or a longer distance.I practice from 3 feet up to 50 yards. Some days looks like I can do no wrong and even hit a walnut or acorn at 25-30 yds, other days I miss a coffee cup at 10 yds, and some days in the summer I go "hunting" bugs. I shoot 5 to 7 times a week in my own place and have the acreage to even hunt small game and deer. I stopped going to 3d shoots because I cannot put up with all the BS, cheating, lies and comments of some people. When I go hunting with my friend, sometimes I take my bow and he takes the .223. We don't question each other choices and just share the hunt . We mixed , airguns, bows, flintlocks , shotguns and rifles in any conceivable combination. We always score the maximum possible score in having a good time 100% of the time.

Very good observation. 10 inch circle is about 78 square inches, where an 8 inch circle is only about 50 square inches. Big difference that.

Most people both archers and rifle shooters measure the distance between the farthest two shots. If one draws a circle what you point out is mathematically true. But most groups I see tend to be much tighter clusters within that circle and rarely are they distributed evenly throughout the circle. The outer arrows which establish you group may not truly represent an average shot. A better way assuming you are trying to hit a specific spot is to use the old 19th century string measure used mainly in the muzzle loading era. Take the center point of your target and measure the distance each arrow is from the center. Total the distance and divide by the number of arrows and you will have your average distance from the point you were trying to hit.

Because MATH.

But all you really need to be able to do is add up your score from a target. No big deal. If the total is increasing, you’re on the right track.

Well, that’s five minutes that I’ll never get back. :/

I am happy to shoot at bullseye targets, 3d targets, leaves, stumps, and game. I never degrade people for shooting targets. I just know that I am not great, but do an OK job when I am in my back yard, but terrible on the range with other people. If you shoot well or improve by shooting at targets, I don't see the downside of that.

I will go along even though it is too much math for me. Example stump shooting--so easy to forget the misses. It is human nature. You can convince your self you came within 1/2 inch of that flower, on a slope when your arrow is 6 feet behind the target. The reason for a lot of lost arrows. They ain't where you think. The holes in paper can't lie. No way to explain away the errant holes. Saving targets and or keeping score is so much easier than all the math. Having said that I love stumping & I think the more you shoot the better you will be but it is next to impossible to gage improvement. >>>>-----> Ken

Dendy, lol.

Great thread! It really hits home for me. I’m new to shooting and up until a few days ago shot solely at my WalMart special foam target shooting at designated bullseyes on it. I was disappointed to an extent and was really questioning if I would have the ability to kill a deer. Well, I bought a “deer sheet” from the local feed store and started shooting with the POI/ aiming point being where I would shoot with a pin on my compound. I was soon elated to find that I was plumb wearing the outlined “kill zone” out on that target overlay and its but 2/3 the size of a yearling doe. I need to get another one as it’s to where I can no longer visualize the point of aim. Now, after reading your information GF, I will be holding off on doing so and will be shooting “paper” to increase my efficiency/accuracy.

More genius from the Georgia Monarch!!! I agree Dendy..

You guys must read slow. LOL ;)

I guess if I were too good a shot to benefit from any further improvement, I wouldn’t think about how to Get Better at it.... but I don’t have that luxury.

The math is obviously easy, but I get my fill at work. Groups aren't my thing anyway. I like shooting at 5 different spots and then beating myself up over how far an individual shot is from the little spot I had picked out. Not keeping score on paper has nothing to do with not wanting to get better. I've been trying to improve for decades and hopefully will continue for several more decades.

Some folks love and thrive on numbers and thats great. Maybe even a better approach, different strokes.

On a related note, if you apply the same group size math to treestand/blind hunting, its amazing how much bigger your effective kill footprint circle is if you just increase you effective yardage by 5 yards. If your effective range is 20 yards and you increase it to 25 yards, that 25% increase yields a 55% increase in area around your stand where critters are in trouble.

My practice is plain ol stumping roves with the Dog

occasional 3-D for fun

I do this stuff for FUN -not a pressure thing for me

Yea Dendy -simular thought

Here's how you stand up someone Matt!

What's in your Museum for your ability's?

What have you done with your life?

Are you a talker and can you back it up.

For what I lost in target shooting ability's I beat them with killing power with the animals and birds taken and fish.

Trophy's that is and abundance. Where does it get you but hated when you have more and bigger and better. LOL

But you have to be able to shoot enough or have enough opportunity's. Or have enough arrows you ever think of that one. LOL

What bows have you had custom ones and arrows but you know in the end what does it really matter.

Some people waste time trying to define who they are when who are we to the maker.

When you hang around others then it becomes competition whether you want it to or not.

Some take things to the next level and you lose friends over it.

Haven't you wanted to be around good shooters or killers so you learned from them.

No target will ever take the place of a live animal or bird your shooting at or will shooting stumps. Shooting stumps I always felt was better for teaching us depth perception while being a natural shooter to just look at something and hit the spot your looking at.

I had a friend that used to say when we asked him are you going shooting with us this week its this or that shoot. No its a hunting day and I'd say well don't you need to practice?

Nope I'll practice on the first animal. Some might look at this and say oh how awful this is! What's wrong with this guy.

Well nothing was wrong with him he is a killer and had arrowed hundreds of deer and turkeys. This is the same guy who could shoot a turkey in the head at 50 yards at live turkey shoots. Bird burred in ground and just head bobbing around.

Some guys can just shoot and even if they didn't practice they know how to adjust for the shots when they went to the shoots.

Now when shooting at shoots and the misses occurred we had some would say its lack of practice. You can break form because of the amount of shots and fatigue too very easily.

Shooting bulls eyes are a lot different than 3ds. The bulls eyes on 3d targets are not all correct either and in the wild could translate into a wounded animal and certainly a bird too.

There are variables in everything we do. At least I think everyone would agree to that. LOL

Hmm, weird... I'm having pie and pi with my coffee this morning. I like math and physics, they're useful in bow making too. I spent most of yesterday playing with Archimedes' lever law, and had a few revelations of my own.

In deciding how, or whether, to respond to this thread, it occurred to me that I shoot all sorts of weapons at a variety of targets and never actually score any of them, ever. The horror.

Must be because of my threatened hunting competence and ego. Yeah. Ok.

Goad someone else.

"Maybe I'm just too suspicious"...but I've noticed about halfway through a chapter I can predict with 75% accuracy which moths will make a beeline to a particular flame, lol! It really is time for folks to go back to work.....

The OP may want to read his first sentence of the post. Then his last post.

I enjoy shooting arrows, and shooting paper targets adds to my time achieving that. Critters, stumps, 3D, 2D or circle targets it's all good. Shooting against a better shooter will usually up your shooting and I find that very enjoyable.

How dare any one shoot archery just for fun.

Consistant form + concentration = good shooting

(No tape measure required for the above formula.)

IMO, shooting paper at 20 yards only really tells you that when you stand with your feet planted in the same level spot, shoulders at the same angle to the target ect......that you can work into a groove to make you believe that you improved your overall shooting a great deal more than you actually have.

Sure it’s great for showing flaws in your overall form but try to get into that exact position for hunting or 3D shooting, just doesn’t happen very often.

Personally, I’ve never been able to consistently hammer the gold 9 ring very well but do ok on a 3D course. My one buddy consistently post 540+ on a 600 round compared to my 500 but can rarely beat me on a 30 target 3D course, go figure.

Good grouping Monkeyball. Nice bow also.

Not enough pictures. My head starting to hurt!!!

I remember when you could shoot any kind of archery you liked and you weren't painted with a label of some idiotic sort. But hey, you do what you're capable of doing and most only do it because they enjoy it. People who aren't capable are the ones who generally dismiss those that can as somehow just one dimensional and must not be able to do the other. Hilarious really. Enjoy what you love to do and to heck with what anyone else thinks. Gosh we should be past this crap by now.

Here ya go Wudstix,

1 perfectly executed cedar arrow flung into the xring :-)

Sawtooth, I love your answer, I am still laughing.

There is a lot of truth in this post, but I actually shoot a heck of a lot better on an animal than a target.

Targets aren't living, I can't eat targets, They are no threat to me, so basically I don't concentrate as hard on a target as I do my food source.

I do shoot in the first shot, There are a bunch of my friends on the FS so I love to participate.

Jeff D. you are absolutely correct

Matt, I agree with your over all premise. I can take the math out of it and add my own spin. There's a big difference between a 4 on a blue face and a 5 liner on a 3D target (scored 10 Kill, 5 lungs). The difference is how the brain works.

Shooting at a spot and scoring a 4 is pretty simple a miss. That's how your brain works.

On a 3D target you're picking a spot. Hit that 5 right near the heart/kill 10 and your brain takes the easy way out - it's a kill shot!!! No, it was a miss.

So with a 5 arrow group on a spot target we shoot 20 out of a possible 25 - not very good. We need to practice.

On the 3D it's 25 out of 50, terrible, but our brain thinks, 'I killed 5 deer I don't need to practice tomorrow'.

LW always nitpicks, so here's my disclaimer. In hunting, you have to learn to pick a spot. So I think you should shoot spots until mid July to get better overall and then switch to 3D to learn to pick a spot. That gives you a month and a half to learn to pick a spot and you only need 30 days.

Bowmania

I try to to stay proficient, but I don't practice/target shoot a whole lot with the goal of becoming a competitive archer. I probably wouldn't shoot a bow much at all if I couldn't hunt with it. In the deer woods, I know my limitations and hunt accordingly.

That's all good and everything but, I don't shoot groups, I don't shoot bulls eyes, and I've NEVER kept score. I do a fair amount of shooting and have taken my share of critters.

I used to really like to shoot paper targets years ago when we went to shoots and also the burlap targets too. Always had shot out spots to look where to shoot at. LOL

There's plenty of tricks to shooting targets too like the holes.

Another thing if you are shooting in a group or a good shooter let them shoot 1rst then aim for their nocks. LOL

So when you talk about shooting theirs always a way to game the system you learn from the better shooters.

You learn how to shoot targets its the same with anything you shoot.

But a killer is not born they are self made and that's by having opportunity's and setting yourself up!

You have to be in it to win it.

Years ago we got trophy's and there were various classes to keep interest in coming to shoots then we switched over to taking the money. Things change though through the years.

Then the time came we didn't keep score as well. We would shoot for coffee or a soda at a eye or a 50 yard shot closest to center on a big target.

I'm not a expert at shooting but I shoot in the basement all winter. I have a 15 yard shot and I like to keep them in the yellow at that distance. I don't shoot groups because of arrows breaking.

What Sawtooth said.

What Sawtooth said.

I guess I should pick this one back up by pointing out that nobody here was ever coerced into reading a thread. Maybe I should have opened up with a disclaimer that people who think they’re beyond any need for improvement should go ahead and hit that Back button, since they’d have nothing to gain here....

And I really do appreciate the guys who have entered the fray with good humor and an open mind. So if you are one of those who feel antagonized by this thread, please stop reading now, or at least take the time to hit “clear entries” before you click on “submit”; the thread title was chosen in an attempt at a little humor, and those who were paying attention surely noticed that I ended by acknowledging that I was largely directing my little jibe at myself.

OK.... Now that we’re all in a Safe Space.....

“Groups aren't my thing anyway. I like shooting at 5 different spots and then beating myself up over how far an individual shot is from the little spot I had picked out. ”

Same thing, though, right? Maybe you’re not talking about 5-spot targets, but if you are, it’s the same point Will is making. You can shoot one arrow at a time for a dozen shots and that’s a Group, isn’t it? And an 8-ring is an 8 ring, whether you put 5 arrows into 5 bullseyes or 1. Bullets don’t need to be stopped in the target in order to measure your group size, so neither do we need to have all 5 or 6 or 12 or in the target at once..... But if you ignore those pesky flyers because you’re telling yourself that they’re not really “representative”, then you only know what you want to believe (hence the snarky title on the thread ;) )

To be sure; if you don’t hunt, then it doesn’t affect anyone or anything other than your own, private version of “reality”. If you don’t actually keep score, but you’re beating yourself up over near misses (where you can see the exactly how far off you are) instead of calling it “close enough to be pretty lethal” on a 3D target or “hey, I got really close to that pine cone, and deer are a lot bigger”.... then clearly you ARE paying at least SOME attention to how good you are in the real world.

I’m NOT saying, by the way, that anyone who plans to hunt should do all or most of their practice at fixed distances and on paper bullseyes; I don’t know which of you guys made that up, but I said no such thing (although Bowmania may have suggested something close to that and I’m not going to debate him on it because he has a point - especially for those who shoot 3-under). OTOH, if you’re just getting started and you want to improve, you are not probably not helping yourself any by throwing in all kinds of variables until you’ve checked off the basics. It’s easier to figure out why you’re missing if you at least reduce some variables.....

And as I said in the first post, I think I have been focusing a bit too much on mixing it up and have been neglecting the Reality Test. Yes, target work shows you what you can do under very controlled, specific conditions, but it shows very plainly what you can ACTUALLY DO.

Hell, even the most casual of golfers keep score...

I got to go with what Sawtooth said.

GF, a good friend of mine would categorize you as a "Linear-Timer", because that's the label he applies to me as well. The kind of person that always checks their watch to see what time it is.... like you, I keep score at both 3D and NFAA field archery because, at the end of the day, I am competing with myself and want to document my progress (or decline!), and I do like to know how I stack up against other archers. But I accept that, there are other people that simply don't care about 'scores', they just like to shoot - and, these same people probably do not walk around with a watch on, they have to ask the person standing next to them what time it is or what day of the week it is, and are probably late for appointments and forget stuff to the annoyance of others. And, the non-scoring people are probably happier than we are, and are probably less neurotic too! I've come to the conclusion that it's probably better to be one of those people that doesn't care about scores, as they seem to be happier than me and seem to enjoy archery more.... but I am what I am and I accept that, so I'll keep walking our field range with a score card in my quiver, cursing at my equipment and myself when I don't measure up to my own expectations, needlessly making myself miserable.... but really happy when I pull off a good field round.... and so it goes....

A slightly different topic.

I know that most people adovocate picking a spot. I don't really do this. I do more hunting and shooting after dark, and mostly at a black silhouette. There is no spot to pick, for the most part. the first thing I do is decide on an elevation that I want to hit on an animal. Usually a little over 1/3 of the way up from the bottom. Then I decided where I want to be horizontally. depending on the angle, it is pretty close to the crease. That is it. I guess I focus more on a spot when stump shooting, though.

I am not a math guy but I understand what your saying. The part of the OP that hits home is keeping score. Normally I don’t , not because I may not like the talley but for reasons that go back many years when I was competitive. I do see your point about keeping score, how else would one know if they are improving or maintaining. By the way, the paper puncher vs. hunter only thing doesn’t hold water with me. People forget Howard Hill and Fred Bear were also target shooters in their archery lives.

I'm with Sawtooth, PECO, old buck, and trad_bowhunter1965.

Sawtooth (original) x200!!!! Size does NOT matter. Scores matter in competitive sports. To me, shooting at inanimate objects is not competitive, and in hunting, the only thing I compete with is the prey. Usually I get beat by it... But I'm getting better...hahahaha!

'You guys must read slow. LOL ;)'

Not when its interesting.

i am going to go have fun and shoot some arras.

Lotta rabbit holes in these parts. Here’s my 2 cents. There are those that make it happen, those that let it happen, and those that ask, what happened. This “statement” is applicable in many ways, such as.... Those who provide assistance, those who appreciate assistance, and those who are out on their own not providing nor needing assistance. In life everything is a brotherhood. Some functional:)

Today, I am upright and my name isn’t in the paper, afforded another day to dream big, aim small, and miss small.

Happy arrow castings

Really? You must be bored. LOL

I’m so ashamed of myself. I read the entire op knowing it would be drivel.

Sawtooth XXXXXXX

This reminds me of the time Rick Barbee put up a challenge to shoot 20 arrows at a paper plate and post it. Those that did probably see merit in being able to hit what you're shooting at (I said shooting and not aiming to protect the sensitive), and those who did not or would not and no shortage of reasons (here again, reasons and not excuses to protect the sensitive) as to why it was a bad idea and a danger to hunting accuracy. Makes me wonder if they'd suddenly become a dead eye shot if the plate had a ring of fur around the edge.

There's no convincing those that don't or won't, it'd be like trying to poke a pissed off Tomcat down into a burlap sack. But there's no denying that if you are squared away you should be able to hit what you shoot/aim at, no matter what it is. Paper is an easy way to do that and document progress, and the truth.

I prefer to do my counting with bodies on the ground. Let's go whack'em and stack'em like chords of wood on the ground. LOL { Great quote from Ted Nugent the motor city madman}

I prefer to do my counting with bodies on the ground. Let's go whack'em and stack'em like chords of wood on the ground. LOL { Great quote from Ted Nugent the motor city madman}

In reality groups are the worst thing that most archers should do! When shooting groups most never allow their muscles recover from the last shot before taking the next one. When that happens muscle fatigue will cause form atrophy, causing short drawing, release problems just to name a few.

Shoot one arrow, retrieve it then shoot the next one. Measure the distance from point of aim to arrow impact.

Bob

I have found that shooting each arrow at a different distance, improves my shooting by not having to think about range. Easy to do on a 3-D course. Shooting groups has the opposite effect. I also don't think about a sight or where my point is. I do score but don't think about that either till I'am done. Maybe I'am just a simple/complex guy.

C'mon Bob. The fatigue from shooting one arrow causing problems? Heaven forbid you are out of breath from hunting the mountains of Montana and an elk pops out. I see benefit from shooting one arrow at a time, as well as groups. Bottom line is you still gotta be able to get it done at crunch time.

Having read every post I came to a couple of conclusions. Many are perfectly happy with there level of accuracy. Some feel they have peaked or past their prime. None of those keep score. Keeping score whether on paper targets or 3D over time lets you gage improvement or if things are going south. Those folks are trying to be the best they can. Then you look for how to fix it. Shooting for fun is great. Not all shooting will help you improve, in fact some can even lead to getting sloppy. I don't believe I ever met a golfer than didn't keep score. Most likely only competing with their own score. Too Improve. Shoot, have fun, even these debates are fun. I try to learn something from every one & never worry about getting that 5 minutes back. If nothing else I am entertained. It is all good. >>>>-----> Ken

The only reason I returned to this thread when I regretted the first time is to confess that I am truly stunned and gob-smacked that the "Legend of the North" has not waded into this quagmire to enlighten us as to why we're all wrong!

OK-----I came--I saw---I'm backing away real slow. Yah all have fun here with this thread. LMAO.

2 Bears, point on :)

I sypher all day long everyday. I ain't about to complicate what is already simple. I think the folks who turn this into a math problem are the same people I'm waiting for to find their arrows behind the targets at 3D shoots.

Here's my math problem:

Confidence + draw it back and let fly = where you are looking.

pdk25:

You obviously didn't understand what I said. A group is more than one arrow and can be a half dozen or a dozen or what ever. Most new archers are over bowed to begin with, and it doesn't take many arrows to start muscle fatigue and that's how bad habits start. Oh and you obviously have never hunted Montana either !!!

Bob

“ these same people probably do not walk around with a watch on, they have to ask the person standing next to them what time it is or what day of the week it is, and are probably late for appointments and forget stuff to the annoyance of others. ”

If you were to ask every woman I have ever known, they would say that I fall very solidly into this second group that you have described! ROFL....

I am another one who works with numbers all day long, and the reason that I let it carry over into my shooting is that frankly, the numbers related to my shooting or a whole lot more fun to think about. Where numbers can tell a story that lead you towards the truth, I’m 100% for it. I guess that’s my science background talking. The the great thing about having a science background is that you really don’t care whether you are right or not, as long as you are learning something which is better information than you had before.

And it’s like Ken said, there are no golfers who don’t keep score. Similarly, there are no pros on the PGA tour who don’t spend a lot of time on the putting green and at the driving range.

I really wish I were as good as the groups that I usually stop to take a picture of, but I know damn well that I’m not.

It’s so easy and pleasant to recall the shots that went down exactly as you wanted them to, but that leads to a level of false confidence that is not really compatible with Ethical Hunting Standards.

And I do think Bob has a point about fatigue. But that’s the great thing about a piece of paper. I recall some years ago reading an article in probably Field & Stream about the “one shot group“; the author there was making the point that if you really wanna know what you and your rifle are capable of, you should have one target that you shoot one time per shooting session (with your first shot of the day) under a wide range of conditions. That way, you know exactly what you and your rifle can do on that first, Cold shot. THAT is the measure that should really matter to hunters; not your best three-shot group from a single session.

And the other reason for the one-shot group.... A lot of us will put together a couple of good shots and if the 3rd is a flyer, we go straight down the tubes. All that tells you is that you are really easily short-circuited by a hiccup. And frankly, I don’t think that’s a good thing to know about yourself when you’re hunting, because all of your mistakes will come back to haunt you at the moment to release. And that can’t be good.

Interesting observation. I had never thought of the actua percentage of area increase or decrease in 2 circles as related to group size.

My personal experience worrying about scores, groups, and rings resulted in a huge case of target panic. I beat it when I shot for fun and stopped striving for perfection.

Guess what? I shoot way better now. But how could I possibly know that without keeping score? Do you people really think we are that stupid?

You should have titled the thread "I can't handle the truth".

That some people shoot for fun and don't want to bother writing stuff down.

Many people also build bows and keep no records and measure nothing as well. They still get better.

It is humorous how you note the negative comments and then devote a whole post and thread to doing the same thing in reverse.

Actually Bob, I think I read your post correctly, and just disagree with you. Besides which you never mentioned beginning archers.

Believe it or not, I do understand what a group is, in comparison to shooting a single arrow then pulling it. I see benefits in both, and sometimes I practice while fatigued on purpose and make sure that I am mentally tough enough to overcome it rather than let problems set in. To each their own.

As a side note, I have actually hunted in Montana.

I say Watson ,I do think you have over thought the problem. Just put some wood in the air and rest will take care of itself.

Man, I re-read my posts. I apologize Bob. I am being confrontational with no good cause. I really don't care how anyone practices, and practice of any sort is better than not in this game, and there may be better ways for the majority of people. Once again, I apologize.

This is just bizarre. I truly hope and pray that this virus is behind us soon, and you folks can get out of the house.

Not sure I am buying the idea that a 9 inch target is 20% smaller than a 10 inch target. The area of the 9 is 81 square inches, vs 100 in the 10, so that much is true. But it doesn't count where you hit it. You can hit anywhere in the circle and score a point. So when you shot a 9 inch group you have to hit within 4.5 inches of the center, but when you shoot a 10 inch group you can hit wherever you want, so long as it is within 5 inches. That sounds like a lot closer to 10% than 20%. You have to improve your shots to misses no worse than 4.5 inch vs 5 inch.

Ofcourse you have to decide what the scoring system is, as in is line cutting allowed, and the size of the shaft, to get closer to the real numbers.

I think the idea some shooters don't want to keep score on paper, or foam is a red herring. Instinctive shooters, are not naturally spot shooters, and even 3D is spot shooting for good shooters. They know the yardage and it is just a static execution form of shooting.

The keeping of score is not the problem, it is the target type. Like would you line up to shoot shotguns on paper targets from a static position? you could find the center of the pattern, and score the center points as if it was a bullseye target. But shotgun shooters preparing for duck season would not find that an enjoyable form of shooting.

Instintive shooters would enjoy score keeping if the targets were appropriate to their chosen style of shooting. But the targets don't really exist. 3D is OK, but basically everyone has been cheating the system for 20 or 30 years. In some forms of barebow, they don't even call the cheating cheating, it is accepted and within the rules.

But if there was a form of shooting that bent in the direction of instinctive archery (the real form of archery that has basically been around for tens of thousands of years), I can tell you who would be absent from the competition and would not be trying to show us how to do it, with their frankenbows and their "look at me I am frozen in space why don't you shoot me" approach to archery. Though to be frank, if such a form of archery caught on it might be some of the same people who would reach the winner's circle as a winner is a winner.

None of this is to say that mastery of spot shooting is a bad idea for an all around archer. It just isn't all around archery.

I’m not too good at math, so I’d order a 6” and an 8” diameter pie (pumpkin or pecan, please) and find out how much more filling is the bigger pie. My “gut feeling” is it’s going to be a surface area to volume ratio thing. :)

Do the math on this: What are the chances, at 25 yds?

Trapper, 100%

I have used the cold bore shot method for quite a long time. For hunting it’s the only shot that matters. Then I shoot for groups. I’m never going to be the National field champion. I’m a Very average shooter. I enjoy shooting too many different styles of bows in one session or in a months time. I can see the value of writing down scores for comparison. There is no denying it would help to remind me that I’m a Very average shooter. I’ve killed 3 whitetails this year with 3 different designed bows. This isn’t due to my shooting prowess, I have a lot of deer. And know where to ambush them.

Lol!

There was a nice buck squirrel hiding behind that wire! :)

Bob--- i like the idea of shooting one arrow and measuring distance to the target. Actually sounds like the Alvin York chunk gun match i shot in. The guy w the shortest total measurement for 10 shots won.

I often just shoot 1 arrow and retrieve during practice as you suggested. It parrelells hunting and 3d. I just hadn't thought about scoring it like you suggested. Good way to measure progress.

Sounds like cabin fever is beginning it's next pandemic!

I wonder if a mask would help? Kinda like Scent Lok!

You are right. I know I am not a good shot but can live with that. Luckily I am good enough to kill deer

I will say this also.. most guys are not good shots with trad gear

Bowmania has it figured out

What does shooting 3 under have to do with it? If you can shoot you can shoot. How you shoot doesn’t matter

I am not going to retire if this is what happens

Sawtooth XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

And Goldentrout has it figured out . I have competed all my life and frankly I am tired of it . I just retired two years ago and decided to slow down. Our society is getting worse. We have to keep track of everything now. We can not think or remember anything because our brains are too full of everything. Our phones have to keep track of our lives. I just got tired of it all and just want to take it easy and hunt and have no trouble being a bad shot. I am also ok knowing I will never be an NFL qB or will never win a super bowl. Now where is my watch

Over the many years of shooting and hunting with a recurve, one thing comes to mind. In my younger days I became involved with competition shooting and had some success with it, but I didn't have any success with bowhunting until I learned to control my emotions.

Early on I felt confident with my abilities when shooting at targets, but was a basket case when the moment of truth arrived and the animal I was hunting presented a shot.

In my humble opinion, I feel anyone with average ability in shooting at targets can be successful as a hunter if they possess patience, concentration and learn to control their emotions. In fact, my experience taught me that the most successful bowhunters, that I know. were not those who excelled on the target range, but those who could control the things that really matter when the moment of truth finally arrives!

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