Therifleman, a true gentleman called me up to wish me a Merry Christmas. We got to discussing archery, duh.

The conversation centered around gapping and he brought up something I had never considered. Let me make a couple of points here to make the rest somewhat sensible.

I never coach anything but split, if a person wants to use 3 under, fine, it really doesn't concern what I'm focusing on. I don't coach 3 under because depend on who ever it is you'll have your fist in front of what you want to hit at 25 or 35 yards depending on the gap. So I never thought of this problem.

The other point is if you sight in a .3006 3 inches high at 100 yards, it's dead on at 25 and dead on at 225 yards. Can't remember if the first 25 is feet or yards - doesn't matter. The line of sight is straight and trajectory of the bullet intersects that line in two places. Twenty five feet or yards and 225 yards.

Our arrow and line of sight act the same, only the distances are different. AND they are different for every face length, anchor, arrow weight, bow speed, draw length etc....... but the arrow is going to intersect the line of sight at two different places.

Now, with that in mind... In archery when we are talking 'point on', point of impact, we always talk of 35 yards or in my case 62 yards. Something in the distance. I've never really heard anyone refer to the point on that is closer???

Back to Therifleman. We were talking about Jimmy Blackmon and his gap of inches for each distance. Rifleman who anchors three under mentioned that his gap at 10 yards is smaller than his gap at 15.

Not being the true gentleman that he is, 'I thought, I'm going to have to straight this out'. After further discussion, I found out that I needed straightening. You do learn something from everyone, especially someone who has a different opinion.

You know that my point on is 62 yards, my gap at 20 yards is 42ish inches (I don't really have a clue. short enough to have a personal best 279 at a blue face league and probably better than most with a 12 inch gap at 20) and my first close point on is so close I never noticed it. And I blank bail more than any other distance.

Unlike Therifleman all my gaps are shrinking as distance increases. And this is what the average person would think when thinking about gravity and the trajectory of the arrow.

Think about how hard it is for a newby who anchors high on his face with 3 under to learn when that decrease in gaps might not be consistent.

I'd like to know about other peoples gaps. I assume that most use a mathematical gap, inches of gap to yards of distance. Does your gap decrease as distance increases or are you like Therifleman and go larger to a certain point and then smaller as distances increases.

It could be that the first point on might mean more important to shooting than the second?

I do think that I never noticed this because I don't estimate yardage, so my gap is not in inches. I learned those really close gaps subconsciously.

Bowmania

Reading this made me think and brought back some memories. I remember years ago sight shooters saying “ if you shoot your sight in at 7 yards it will be dead on at 20 yards” . I would imagine there are many factors that would determine those 2 distances, but I remember that being said often.

I have often wondered about the folks with 60 + yards point on. To start with thinking their bow must be so much heavier draw wt./faster than mine. I knew the arrow had to cross the line of sight at 2 places. I just figured the first place must be in mere feet & not much good to them. I also suspected, being a close range hunter I might be using the first place the arrow crossed the line of sight. Unlike Therifleman he gets out and works these things out. He got me to using a little bit of a fixed crawl for the 1/2 & less distance shots. I haven't taken the time to try out his gap at the riser, using the strike plate yet. I have ever confidence it works well but the closer point on and a little fixed crawl are just working so well for me. I hate to mess with it. >>>>-----> Ken

2 bears, the answer is simple. One of my rigs I use in competitions is this combo: #52 on fingers and 320gr arrow who's in the +205fps. Point on is 64m with 3 under. The advantage of this type of combo is this : between 10m to 30m I use one single reference for all the distances between 10m to 30m and the arrow will hit in a 6" diameter circle. And the reference point is just 18" below which is most of the time inside the 3D contour of the target. I just need to know where the 18" is on a given target.

Gaps 10-15-20-25-30m - keep the arrow tip on the dot

Gaps spread ~ 6"

Walk-out shooting unknown distances between 10m to 30m using just ONE reference point.

PS If it was not obvious, I consider the distance for the reference point to the centre of the gaps.

The lower your anchor the closer your first point on and the farther your second. 3under with a high anchor the first point on will be a farther by quite a bit but the second one won't be much farther.

I think what the OP is catching onto is what Rod Jenkins preaches, though his approach is based on riding a flat gap, not where there is a point on. You can actually keep things really simple if you are an IBO short target shooter/person who thinks all game should be shot relatively close, say under 30 yards. In the old days with the 80 yard point on, they were actually trying to connect at those ranges.

Dwayne Martin has some interesting videos where his point on is like 25 yards. He uses a 9/16" high nocking point to be on with his bow.

Yes, Jenkins in one of the MBB videos did a great job comparing the arrow trajectory in relation to a rifle barrel/scope and line of sight(intersecting it twice, on the way up and down). Dewayne made a great video explaining how to get to a hunting yardage "point on". I've never seen it recommended for anything other than a deadly bowhunting/3D technique...but that's all many archers are after. It sometimes takes a combination of 3U, high anchor, heavier shaft, high nock set or all the above. I don't practice past 25 yds. because I'm never going to shoot at an animal past that. Any 3D target past that I can simply hold the tip above the vitals all the way to top of the back. Past that your fist blocking your sight picture starts coming into play, as has been stated. To each his own.

Guys were doing that decades ago Todd, with multipile anchors and multiple points-on aiming.....that's part of string walking that's been around for at least eighty years and more than likely much longer than that if we just knew for sure. It's also a reason for folks to use a sight, as many found out also alot of years ago and why we have so many freestyle folks in the sport.

That said, I was never disciplined enough to work the math into my shooting so I stayed (stay) with my old split finger, guessomatic system. Lot's of way to change your guitar strings.

Todd?...you made my brain hurt reading this with my 1st cup of coffee so I'll just mention "A Few" pertinent terms that affect point-on distance...

1: Face-Walking

2. Distance From Eye-to-Arrow

3: Canting

4: Head Lowering

5: String-Walking "IS" Gapping (but done at the string)

6: Nocking Height

7: Shelf/Rest Height

8: Draw Length

9: Draw Weight

10: Arrow Weight/GPP

11: String Material & Configuration

12: String Silences?...Type?...Weight?

and I'm sure I missed one or several. ;)

I shoot 3 under and my fist is not in my way until 50 yards at least. I went out this morning to try the 2 point on. To be point on in close I have to be VERY close like 1 yard . My point on with that bow setup is about 35 yards. Either way I am seldom at point on when shooting.

Chairman, if your point on is 35, you have to have your first knuckle covering the target at 40. Maybe I shouldn't have used the term fist. I've killed a number of animals over 40. I think my close point on is like yours. I'd love to check but I have a shoulder problems right now.

Bill, I'm not trying to affect point on. I'm looking for people who have a hill instead of a slope on their graph of gap and distance.

George, what were guys doing decades ago? I don't know if target shooting is pertinent to my question (above). Once you start dealing with string walking, different anchors etc, you start having problems with broadhead flight. I've never changed a guitar string, but it sound like we shoot the same.

I've taken the Rod Jenkins course and never heard him mention 'riding a flat gap'. I'm not catching on to that, because it sound like it would be good for only one distance. Every one would shoot a flat gap if it wasn't for gravity. The course had very little about aiming, mostly the other 90% of the shot.

I don't really care what target shooter are doing, I'm strictly a hunter. Bringing target shooting muddies the water on an answer to the question. Which is kind of my fault for not ending the sentence in a question mark. Hunters deal with changing distance and need to deliver as much energy to the spot with a perfectly tuned broadhead. Changing that point on messes with that.

I know I could adjust my point on to 25 yards. That might be OK in the whitetail woods, but that's not the only place I hunt. Plus with my split, corner of the mouth anchor, if I want to be good at 25 I practice at 35, it makes 25 a piece of cake. That extra ten yard will show you your problems like NOW.

Bowmania

Part of the game is knowing the bows trajectory. Then knowing how flat it shoots and how to readjust to the target.

See how simple this is without all the BS that is fake news to me.

Ever hear the kiss method?

Keep it simple stupid.

For those who like all the tech stuff ok but for those who don't its fake news and unnecessary. Shooting sticks and finding your grove is not to be as hard as some make it.

If your going to do all this tech nonsense you might as well shoot sites and mechanical bows. Oh wait these guys come from that side so they think its all necessary. My bad. LOL

I don't consciously gap shoot, though I suppose split vision aiming could be considered a form of gapping. I don't use my arrow point or attempt a hold x inches under the target, etc., but just note the orientation of the arrow (in mhy peripheral vision) in relation to the target and release when it looks right.

Regardless, I do have a point on distance. It's about 45 yards split finger and closer to 25 yards three under, depending on the bow and arrow weight I'm shooting. Yep. I shoot both. Agreed that there is an up close point on associated with either of those distances. However, it's so close that I've never noticed or tried to determine what it might be. I don't see the value in trying to pinpoint it unless one is shooting very small targets at very close range (and consciously gaps, of course). Perhaps useful for target shooters. Not so much for hunters.

So if I am reading some of these posts correctly, there are two point on distances for the same string hold and anchor position, one as the arrow goes up and one as the arrow comes down?

I am having a little trouble with that if my interpretation is correct (and that's ok because they usually aren't correct). I am thinking the first point on is right at the end of the arrow when the arrow is at full draw. So let's call that one inch. The arrow goes out and upward and comes down and crosses the line of aim at the second point on. The "second" point on is the one that aimers use for shooting. That first point on probably doesn't have much use for most of us.

With a rifle projectile trajectory drawing, the LINE OF SIGHT does indeed cross the BULLET PATH at two points. But when using point of aim and the tip of the arrow, the arrow path really crosses the line of sight at one point when on its way down. The first point on is the tip of the arrow when held at full draw, and is really of no use to the archer because most of us are shooting further than an inch.

So what am I missing here. You have my interest.

I used to shoot .22LR by the brick, with a full-fixed-6 scope, and my two zeroes with that were at 35 and 50; about 8” low at 100, IIRC. I was pure Hell on gophers and Jacks with that!

I think if you shoot 3U, your first zero could be pretty useful; shooting split, probably not so much. I’ve actually been thinking about adding a three under anchor to my repertoire/bag of tricks to reduce my vertical stringing on close range targets, but I haven’t quite committed just yet.

As it is, I do quite well (thank you very much!) Inside of 10 and at 25+, but sometimes in the teens I can get a bit erratic.

Incidentally…

When I am shooting at ranges beyond my “far“/second POD, my fist “getting in the way” is not an issue; one of the joys of binocular vision is that I can see my arrow with my dominant eye and the target with the other, and as long as the middle of the target is in the middle of the arrow, that is plenty close enough for my purposes. Strictly speaking the target is at the Apex of a triangle with the distance between my two eyeballs as the base, But there we are talking about a matter of maybe 2 inches, so at 60 yards the two sides of the triangle are so close to parallel that it will be a long, long while before I am good enough to worry about my groups being thrown off by the triangulation.

And actually, there are a few targets at the club where the range is clearly marked, and I am learning to use the knuckles of my bow hand to set gaps on some of those longer ranges. As Todd said of shooting 25 vs. 35, that next 10 yards will put all of your inadequacies on display for all the world to see, and what is not revealed at 35 is plain as pee at 60 or 70 or more....

"So what am I missing here. You have my interest."

You missed nothing, just some don't know what they are talking about. There is Point On, there are gaps and there is gap compromise. For a hunter and target archer on unmarked course knowing his gap compromise saves the day.

PS Gap compromise = for which distances I can use ONE gap and still be in the kill zone. This can be called "riding the flat" by some and never understood by others.

PPS If you shoot logs (above 11gpp), the trajectory will be black line and the distance error will come with a bigger penalty since the safe green zone where the gaps can be almost similar and keep you in the kill zone is small. If you shoot a decent 9-9.5 gpp arrow you can get the red trajectory where the distance error has a bigger leeway. Smart archers find out for their needs (distance) the combo bow and arrow who's giving them the best leeway in terms of distance approximation.

“Riding the flat”…

That one made me laugh, because a couple years ago here I said something about the flat portion of the trajectory and got royally skewered for it because there is no substantial portion of a trajectory which is actually, literally “flat”.

Well, DUHHHHHH..... LOL

I would think that for the ranges at which most of us here prefer to hunt anyway, the Gap Compromise would not really entail that much compromise at all… I am certainly not seeing any signs of it in the pictures that you posted earlier. I’m not sure what further explanation might actually be required ;)

Actually, you never tried to see how it looks like. Here is a #56 OTF with a 525gr 15yards, 20 yards and 25 yards are having almost the same gap. So, I can be off by 10yards in my approximation and still hit the kill zone.

lefty4 what you are missing. The arrow is several inches below your eye. As you said, "the arrow goes out and upward" The arrow being below your eye has to be angled upward to hit your line of sight.(1st point on) Then when it reaches the apex it starts downward crossing the line of sight again. 2nd point on. The error in your example while the point is touching the paper your eye isn't. Move your eye up to the paper and it will be inches above the point the arrow was touching. I wish I knew how to sketch on here a couple of lines would make it more understandable. Draven's gap compromise is, with his example. It would take a slightly different gap at 15 yards than it would at 25 for the arrows to hit the exact same spot. At 30 & 35 he would have to change the gap more but he compromises/splits the gap so he can use the same gap and be close enough at all 5 distances. On the bear target he used a lighter/faster arrow & put the arrows even tighter for competition, using the same gap at all distances. The bag target would be a sure kill from 15 to 25 using the same point on.

Draven have I got it now? >>>>-----> Ken

Yes Ken, you’ve got it. The idea is that knowing your combo (arrow and bow) will boost your confidence. Nobody needs to know his gaps in inches or using math. Go out there and do the footwork to find out what you have in your hands and how can you take advantage of it.

You know, Draven, I’m gonna tell you what I have been known to tell my wife...

I’m not gonna argue with you when we don’t disagree.

One gap that puts you in the money for 90% of the shots a whitetail hunter would take is a no-compromise compromise in my book. Glad it’s working for you.

Thanks Draven. It was a little confusing at first I read it and your P.M.s several times. It is just a slightly different way of looking at things. Once you grasp it, it makes perfect sense and really comes together. Thanks so much. >>>>-----> Ken

What Draven illustrated is how some instinctive shooters shoot without knowing it. They just shoot the same sight picture putting them on the money. Once you back up beyond that their accuracy falls apart. I used to be hell on wheels shooting instinctive to about 25 yards. Now after several years stringwalking , now a dedicated gap split vision shooter I see exactly what was going on.

GF, thank you for not arguing since it was not me who invented the "gap compromise" notion. Ken, I am glad I could help a little. Chairman, you are right.

My thanks to Todd and Ken for the kind words.

This has been an interesting thread. Draven's discussion of the gap compromise is spot on.

As Ken noted I have spent a good bit of time working with each of my set ups to analyze what will work best for me. After talking with Todd the other day I went outside and played around with split finger. My point on with split is 38 yards as opposed to 28 yards with 3 under. Interesting, when I gapped my shots with split, in order to hit the mark I had to hold 28" low at 10 yards, 36" low at 15 yards and 40" low at 20 yards. That's a lot for me to think about, as you would think your hand would be moving up as the distance increases, but due to the launch angle of the arrow when presented so far below my eye as split puts it, it is what it is. On the other hand my gaps using 3 under are much tighter in terms of how many inches low I need to hold--my maximum gap being 14" (given the same arrow weight they will have the same variance in trajectory), and much more manageable for what I do---hunt whitetails up close and shoot 20 yard games like 5 spot and shoot 3D out to around 30 yards. As Ken noted, I don't really think in terms of gapping at the arrow as in holding the tip 14" below the target. Out to about 25 yards I utilize my sideplate as a reference--this way I only have to reckon fractions of an inch (easier for my brain to visualize) so I am gapping at the riser. But after doing this thousands of times I would have to say that I am only aware of this "gap" in my subconscious as my focus is on the target. As Draven noted you can manipulate your arcs very effectively by changing the speed of your arrow---in my case I have done this with arrow weight primarily and string material to get the gap "compromise" that best suits what I do. To clarify, I hunt with 40# bows and at my 26.5" draw length I don't get a ton of speed. I've used very heavy arrows (15gpp) out to 20 yards in the past with good success on whitetail, but I've also used arrows at the 10gpp mark with equally good success. 10gpp isn't a light arrow by any means, but its the lightest I want to hunt with in the poundage I shoot and it gives me a shot that I can work with on the 3D course (which is in essence practice for my hunting). If I want to shoot at further distances I can shoot split, but 3 under just works the best for me for the things I enjoy doing. Jimmy Blackmon's gap compromise is a great video on how this all works and Gregory Richards, Archery 101, I believe also explains it well. As some who like to state the incredibly obvious like to add--- nothing I'm doing here hasn't been done before. So I'll stick to the merely obvious---this sounds very complicated and there are ways to shoot that involve a lot less thinking, but it is what has worked for me and helped me transition into a more fluid shot, as I no longer have to think about it. If this helps someone that would be great. Each of us should find what works best for him or her---this is just one way of doing things.

I was field captain at our club. One week at the league night I stenciled some chipmunks onto cardboard ,drew a circle around a quarter for a kill and set the stake at 8 feet. The guys loved it. Since they could score without walking up most shot it a second time trying to figure it out. Most shot sights with an index finger corner mouth anchor. Everyone used their 10 yard pin and everyone hit low. When the guys came in they had it figured out from the extra shots. Some needed a 20 yard pin to hit at 8 feet and a few needed their 30 yard pin. That an example of 2 point ons and the distances.

I'm right here with Chairman on this eye opening revelation, but i don't use string walking.... I practice at my point on distance 3 under and work my way up in distance making a mental note of the increased gap rather than string walking. If you practice enough, those gaps "Become Instinctive" and you no longer think about them consciously. You focus on your POI and the gap takes care of itself.

btw.... you have control over where your point on distances are established. Arrow length, elevated rest perhaps, high or low anchor point, arrow weight and trajectory.... Its all adjustable to what fit your taste.

"What Draven illustrated is how some instinctive shooters shoot without knowing it. They just shoot the same sight picture putting them on the money. Once you back up beyond that their accuracy falls apart. I used to be hell on wheels shooting instinctive to about 25 yards. Now after several years stringwalking , now a dedicated gap split vision shooter I see exactly what was going on."

“ What Draven illustrated is how some instinctive shooters shoot without knowing it. They just shoot the same sight picture putting them on the money. ”

100%

Especially those who do most of their shooting at the same distance, over and over. Those are the guys who top out at 17.3 yards. LOL

Or they melt down in the woods because their usual background cues are MIA.

But Rifleman’s notes on measured gaps with split fingers are intriguing; that really explains why I have some trouble from time to time with those “modest” ranges. I probably shoot high (most common type of miss) because I’m probably cheating my bow-hand up higher to improve my alignment with the arrow on target.

Kinda makes me wonder about the wisdom of practicing at probably the top of the arc (largest gap = most difficult sight picture to keep straight).

I just love these conversations.... Always something good.

GF, your example with two point ons with the chipmunk target doesn’t fly for me. Shooting with sights isn’t shooting with the point of the arrow as a sight. When using a sight, there could be two points where the arrow passes through the line of sight. But that isn’t point on. When using the tip of the arrow as a sight, there is only one point on, unless you count where the arrow tip is sitting when you are at full draw. When the arrow is coming down, it passes through the line of sight that was established by the eye and the tip of the arrow. That is the point on distance.

2bears, thanks for the explanation but I still disagree. ??

When I get home I will try to show what I am talking about in a picture. Interesting thread with some interesting insights.

Well, the first thing, Lefty…

You’re going to have to figure out how to keep me and Gary straight. It wouldn’t be difficult if we were all in person, since he’s about a foot taller than I am. Pat attention.

And second.... Before you tell a guy he’s wrong... Pay attention. Gary was specifically and explicitly talking about guys who use sights.

Strictly speaking, though, you have a good point about it not being possible to have two actual Point-On distances unless one of them is zero yards The gap compromise model, however, does give you two sighted-in “zeros” a bit further down range. And if you think of Point On as a 6:00 hold, then you are right back into having 2 zeros. Which is really what everybody here has bern talking about all along. Yes, a 6:00 hold on a 20” bullseye target is actually a 10” gap.

How fine do you want to split that hair?

When shooting point on, ideally, the archer looks through the tip at the place the arrow will hit. I don’t know any other way to aim and be certain I get the right distance.

I'm very confused......

I’m so green to Trad shooting I should have looked for the shooter appropriate rating warning before reading through all this info. Lol! One thing did draw my curiosity (the rest just confused the $&#* out of me). Being new to trad shooting, with what was stated pertaining to a flat trajectory, should I shoot a lighter arrow (I have full length arrows with weighted inserts) thus making it “easier” to shoot more consistent and building confidence? My arrows are what they are weight wise as I shot bare shafts adding weight FOC until the arrow hit true at 10yards.

Ty

If the arrow is below the eye it has to be angled up to hit eye level. 1st point on. It will continue to angle up until it starts to drop. when it drops through the line of sight 2nd point on. Exactly the same with a scoped rifle. A bullet does not rise gravity starts to work the instant it leaves the barrel. The barrel is angled up to cross the line of sight/scope. 1st point. It continues to angle up to the apex where it starts to drop and will cross the line of sight/scope again on the way down. The chipmunk also flies whether you agree or not. What GLF pointed out, with a sight. A 30 yard pin can put the arrow on at 8 feet & again at 30 yards. Guess what, the point of the arrow has to be in the same place for both shots. I tried my best to explain it to help you out. Go out and shoot & you can prove it to yourself. There are tables for every caliber made that show the two places where a bullet crosses the line of sight twice. There is no denying physics. Just many different ways of explaining it. A rifle sighted in at 1000 yards, if you put the muzzle against the target it will hit about 2 1/2" below the crosshairs/line of sight. Guess where it will hit at 200 yards,500 yards? It has to be angled up many feet, depending on muzzle velocity, to drop into the target at a 1000 yards, the second ZERO. Have a good day shooting. >>>>-----> Ken

Matt, I never said you were wrong. I said your explanation doesn’t fly for me.

Ken, applying rifle bullet trajectories where you have a sight 1.5 inches above the line of the bore to an arrow application where the tip of the arrow is the front sight doesn’t work for me. Hopefully when I can get my Crayons out I can explain why. But maybe I can’t.

I guess I always thought point on was where the tip of the arrow point was aligned with the center of the bullseye and when released, that’s where the arrow would hit. Holding the arrow point high or low in order to hit the center of the bullseye is gap compensation.

Wow, I guess I’m behind the times for sure. I’m still using the old split finger, guessomatic system like George. LOL

This is my understanding of point on and why there is only one point on distance (unless you count the tip of the arrow at full draw). This crude work of art but ......

It is very accurate sketch

Lefty, Count 'em. Your point on might be there and mine is, but some people are 6 feet or 6 yards. Its the first point and it crosses the line. It starts out under the eye, so the arrow has to cross close or our max range would be 20 feet.

So, look at Ken's (Two Bears) explanation. AND I think this is the essence of the whole thread??? All compounders that I know of have 1 pin - 10 yards, 2nd pin - 20 yards, 3rd pin - 30, counting from the bottom up. (Same as my decreasing gap, but not the same as Therifleman) I've never see any one with a 10 yard pin on the top or in between the 20 and 30 yard pin. That must mean the arrow is going down by the time it hits 10 yards. My assumption for 50 years.

Gregory Richards Archery 101 has something different.

Sand man, stay away, this is like porn to a 12 year old boy for someone new, lol.

Lefty, another interesting thing to me is that if our close Point on is right by the bow, our second is waaaaay the heck out there - 62 for me. If you have a first at say, 10 feet, your second is around 30. Seems to me it should be the opposite?????????????????? Meaning a close 1st point on should have a close second 30ish yards. That would make arrow drop more equal.

Bowmania

"That would make arrow drop more equal."

Refresh your Physics 4th grade.

Using Lefty4 illustration, this is what I “see”. This does create 2 point on(s) when I shoot.

Sand man,I don’t know why I need two eyes, but oh well.

With the blue line you have drawn, you are no longer sighting with the tip of the arrow. I was thinking that with point on, you use the tip of the arrow as the sight. So drawing that blue line above the tip of the arrow just to create two points where the path of the arrow crosses the line of sight means absolutely nothing (to me).

Todd, you started this mess!

I stand by my drawing that there is only one point on at I explained, IF you are using point of the arrow as your sight. If you are using a sight mounted to the bow, then 2bears explanation is valid. And there are two points where the path of the arrow crosses the line of sight.

But I am thinking that point on references in terms of sighting means you are using the arrow tip as the sight, at full draw. Using sights and explaining how they work (as in bullet trajectories) takes the discussion totally away from point on (since you aren’t using the point).

Guess I should have checked before infringing on the copy write... lol. I see what you’re saying, aiming with the point, yes, one POC. perhaps I will try this “method of shooting” one day. All the terms/styles for anchoring and “aiming....mind numbing to me at this point. Nice cold, wet, windy day so perhaps I’ll educate myself with a little virtual studying. Seems to be working well for the kids?LOL

Unless you already have a very high anchor and your point on is very short you still have 2 point ons. If your only point on is 20 then you're holding pretty high because without a rise an arrow would drop a ton at 20.

Heck I don't know lets all go shoot and report back. >>>>>------> Ken

Here’s a little chart I made up for one of my bows that shows the gaps both at the target and at the bow and what I mean by “at the bow” is where an invisible sight pin would be above the arrow tip.

As you can see there is a real nice sweet spot in the gaps between 15 and 25 yards where the gap at the target doesn’t vary more than 1 1/2”. However the gap at the target is between 22” to 23 1/2” where judging a gap that large accurately can be difficult.

I can see where some gappers using the point makes you first po seem to be fractions but your arrow has to rise to hit at 20 unless your 10ft tall. So it also has to drop back down at some point unless it stops rising at 20 in which case you gap at 30 or 40 has to be astronomical. Find some flat ground and point at your 20yd target then have someone with a level move you till your arrow is parallel to the ground. Release and watch how far short of 20 your arrow hits the ground. It has to rise therefore it has to drop past the same line again.

I agree the arrow has to rise. Actually it is angled upward relative to line of sight to target. But at normal anchor points the arrow crosses the line of sight very early probably less than three feet away unless using Olympic style anchor under the chin.

Another chart using same bow setup except using a fixed crawl set to give 20 yard point on. No longer have that 15 to 25 yard sweet spot but now you have more manageable gaps from 15 to 22 1/2 yards. However once past point on the gaps really open up. First chart maybe suitable when longer shot could be expected, where this second chart would work for close tree stand type shots.

Todd on your first chart--I bet a " GAP COMPRIMISE of 1" at the bow, would put you in the kill zone of a deer from 15 to 25 yards. Would it not? Thanks for the information.

You just need a side plate 1" high and you are in the money.

PS The above is valid for both, hunters and archers - to not read again some saying the target archers don't know what they say and are not interesting to read

Well, this one got me to wondering, so I figured there was nothing for it but to go shoot a few and see what happens....

Now, I suppose I should throw out the disclaimer that I don’t normally shoot Point On at all cabs any distance, so I was honestly finding it a bit difficult to pay attention to the point of my arrow and the target at the same time… Probably doesn’t help that with my distance glasses on, the whole arrow was pretty fuzzy, but you know what they say… Center fuzzy is the same as center sharp, so let’s roll with that for a minute…

So, starting in the middle I did my best to put the point of my arrow on the X, and that is just about where it ended up.

On my second shot, I held (near as I could) point on at 6 o’clock on that 35 cm target face on the left.

Third shot I backed up a bit more, and held 6 o’clock on the 50 cm face.

I shoot a fairly high anchor, split. So my nock is going to be roughly an inch and a quarter below my pupil. And my “near“ PODs turned out to be (nearest makes no difference) 2 yards... 3 yards... and 5 yards.

On a 60cm face at 40 yards, my arrows seemed to average out pretty near the x- ring with a 6:00 hold.... but it was even harder for me to visualize the point of the arrow, so I guess I’ll have to come out earlier next time and it certainly wouldn’t hurt me to figure out how to keep my hand a bit warmer while I’m at this, because you can only shoot just so well when your fingers are frozen. and to be honest I very rarely shoot with a glove on my left hand, and that probably was an additional variable.

The problem I ran into, of course, is that you can really only hold one thought in your head at a time, and so when I had the point on clearly fixed in my mind, I was stringing my shots off to the right, and I wasn’t really paying that much attention to the grip in my left hand, which (especially since I don’t normally wear a glove) is probably another major source of error.

"You just need a side plate 1" high and you are in the money."

Draven, as Ken noted earlier, this is exactly how i set my bows up. IBO rules allow side plate to be 1" above the top of the arrow. I don't focus on the sideplate. My focus is on the target, but my subconscious references it. When i first used it id say i was pretty dependant on it, but now I'd say it just keeps me grounded when anxiety starts to creep in during competition. Ive used it with good success in the deer woods too.

I know, this is the easiest fix for accuracy and all happens in peripheral vision.

Ahh where you gap makes all the difference!

If I hold a 1” BOW gap at 25 yards (a 1/4” too low) I will hit about 7 1/4” low and if If I hold a 1” BOW gap at 15 yards ( a 1/4” too high) I will hit about 4 7/16” high.

But now if i gap at the TARGET 22 3/4” below my intended strike point by using a part of the animal say just above the hoof then I will hit within 3/4” from 15 to 25 yards. If you can accurately set your gap that is that big it become foolproof from 15 to 25 yards

I prefer gap at the target, with reference inside the animal contour. 18” (for me) is right at the knee level for a deer size target - measured from center of lungs not heart. Once tested and found the gap at target I can say “I don’t know the distance and I don’t care” and I almost mean it.

"This was explained best in the first post."

Actually not. It is a difference between shooting your Point On and picking an arbitrary point on the target and aiming at it - no matter if direct looking at it and ignoring the target or in the peripheral vision.

Funny thing with you and the creator of the topic is that the 1st point when arrow is intersecting the line of sight while shooting Point On is when the archer is at full draw. Archery for dummies should be created.

So as mentioned on your own target range the distances are known. And background cues are the same. When in unfamiliar shadows, hills and trees. Are you using range finders to shoot 30-60 yards?

Intuition. Nobody stays just in his courtyard and nobody in his right mind is NOT going to train on hills, woods and so on if he knows he will shoot in those.

I agree with Lefty4 and his illustration of "point on" aiming.

I don't believe Sand man actually "see's" the first point of the arrow arc, but it is how he "visualizes" the trajectory.

In both illustrations, the distance between the eye and the fletch is too exagerated.

If the blue eye were focused on the same objective/target, the blue line meeting the line by lefty4, that would then describe a gap style, as I aim.

I just remember from my compound shooting. Miss judging yardage by 2 yds at 40 yds is a big difference, even at 290fps. So if the distance must be known first before the gap sight picture, point on can be factored. How are you measuring distance within one yard.

You don't need compound accuracy in the woods with a recurve or longbow. All the compound shooters I shoot with chose to shoot K-50 because they are allowed to use all the bells and whistles including range finder. Knowing your arrow trajectory / gaps you don't need 1 yard distance accuracy to hit the kill zone. To hit the X you need, and I can tell you that just 2% of compound shooters hit the X all the time in a 80 targets 2 days competition. So, it is "theory" and "down to earth results".

I agree Draven, even with a rangefinder, release, front and rear sights, and 300fps compound shooters are not 100%. So reading the above statements started making me feel pretty inadequate. I’m wondering what I’m doing wrong if everyone that uses the gap/ point on techniques are drilling bulls at 40 yards.

If they drill the bull (lets say 8" diameter circle) at 40 yards, they shoot Point On and their form is strong.

PS I consider shooting your Point On distance is the best training tool since you don't have to fight with your anxiety regarding the aiming and will expose your form flaws in a hurry.

PS I consider shooting your Point On distance as the best training tool since you don't have to fight with your anxiety regarding the aiming and will expose your form flaws in a hurry.

That’s impressive

Bullet ballistics do not work when you use the TIP of the arrow as your sight and hold point on. Unlike a bullet, the arrow does not start below the line of sight. The tip of the arrow starts exactly ON the line of sight if you are aiming with the point on the target. When released, the arrow arcs and comes down through the line of sight again, at the POINT ON distance.

There is one point on distance because the arrow only crosses the line of sight once after it leaves the bow.

Someone please draw me a sketch and show me what I am missing.

We're not all the same. Yours does, mine does the same, but not everyones.

Even your diagram has the point below the line, if it was above you couldn't see the the target.

Sandman has drawn what he sees.

Bowmania

You have a problem to understand what Point On shooting really means Bowmania. Sandman drew what he thought the point on shooting means, just like you.

PS How did you know your Bow has 62m point on and not 65 if you didn't look "through" the tip to the place you wanted to hit?

No Todd, the tip of the arrow in my diagram is right on the line of sight. That's how people shoot with a sight pin, isn't it? And they can still see the target just fine.

Sand man's blue line doesn't use the point of the arrow to aim and isn't valid for a point on discussion/comparison.

I was in a tent camper on a snowed in pheasant hunt when I drew my sketch so my resources were pretty limited. But I had I been at home, I cannot guarantee it would be any better. Physics are physics and don't change for each shooter.

It’s pretty straightforward, really… If the point of your arrow starts off ON your line of sight, then it is not going to rise up to it and cross it… Because it’s already there. It’s the same thing as the line of bore on a rifle; a bullet cannot rise above the line of bore, EVER; it simply starts out there, and falls further and further away over time and distance.

When you use a sight or a gap to start the point of your arrow below the line of sight, THEN your Arrow will rise up to and (later on) drop back down to the line of sight, creating the near and far or “1st“ and “2nd“ zeros for that trajectory.

Longer arrow = shorter POD because it decreases the upward angle at launch.

Well drawn GF.

There may be two "zeros" when you are gapping or using a sight.

But there is only one true "point on" if you are aiming with the tip of the arrow (which is what point on means, I believe).

Going back to the OP, Todd is stating there are two points on (as in plural) and I (still) do not agree.

GF,

The "gap" you labeled on your illustration, is a constant for gap shooters, and never changes. For gap shooters, it is a form issue, and not a means of calculation. Now if you are a string walker, that "gap" would be varied/calculated for distances.

lefty4,

"There may be two "zeros" when you are gapping or using a sight."

No, the trajectory of the arrow from the bow is always as you illustrated. What I think might be confusing people is the angle of the arrow in your illustration, which is intended to illustrate a point on demonstration. Any distance short of "point on" and the angle of the arrow is with the point "below" the objective/target. The trajectory doesn't change, but the distance the arrow travels, does. Hence, for a gap shooter, there is a vertical "gap" between the point of the arrow and the target, which is variable, depending on the distance to the target. Fixed sight shooters calibrate their sights to a known distance, and if they shoot some other distance, have to hold off their target to insure the trajectory(always the same), to either end sooner on a closer target, or, travel farther to a more distant target. I've heard that offset called "Kentucky windage", when done with firearms.

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