So I have a question for those of you who go through a lot of wood shafts...

I own bows that run from about #47-#62 off of my fingers. I also picked up a spine tester and a shaft taper plane and I just ordered a digital scale, so I can sort them to my heart’s content. Figure I can maybe even figure out the fine-tuning of weight and spine by adjusting the taper....

Question is....

Does anyone sell shafting that is good quality but not sorted as precisely so that I could cover a few more bases as to the different bows without getting into having several hundred arrows in inventory... IOW, I’m trying to save money at the rate of a couple hundred dollars per order, more than a couple of nickels or quarters per shaft.

To be honest, I’m a little disappointed to see that Surewood is no longer offering “shorts”, so what’s my next option?

And for those of you who do go through a lot of shafts looking for the few dozen that are Just Right.... what do you do with the ones that are at the high and low ends of the range?

I’m open to cedar, spruce or fir; just want the cost savings to come from the value of the supplier’s labor, rather than the quality of the shafts.

Won't happen, the majority of labor cost is sorting for quality and thus the requirement to discard a lot of unsuitable shafts. Spining is a few cents a shaft. Weight matching a bit more. All premium shafts won't be sold in bulk but in matched dozens, because 60% of demand is premium but only 40% of production is premium material. That's why you won't save hundreds of dollars. 100 hunters grade shafts are around $225. This probablyi 8 dozen and 4 trash. 8x42=$336 for 8 doz. premiums. Remember, federal excise tax is included which is a significant % of shaft cost of a wood shaft.

I think you are way over complicating the process.

There is no reason If you are starting with good quality shafts yo have any significant percentage of culls.

You can easily weight match closer than we are capable of utilizing by tapering the nock ends.

And you can match spine within a pound, which is completely unnecessary by sanding the center.

Don't get hampered by analysis paralysis. Just build some arrows.

Last time I bought a bunch I sorted them by spine and weight. The closest in spine and weight I set aside for hunting and special occasions. The next group was not as close, 10# spine, 20 grains weights, those are for “shooting “. The remaining ones I sorted agian. The light ones I added weight using one of those jigs 3Rivers sells and pieces of finishing nails. The heavy ones I sanded/tapered them. I didn’t do this in one go I spread it out as I needed to . Sure , I ended up with some odd numbers but I will use them all.

Been a few yrs when I sat down with an old arrowsmith sorting a gross of poc and out of the 100 got 20 that were in the 5# spine (60-64) and 50 gr. with fairly straight grain lines, the rest either went for stumping / flu-flus or tomato stakes.

Thanks, Roland - you just filled in a whole bunch of blanks for me! Makes perfect sense, and explains a lot.... Like why my hundred “kids” shafts have spine ratings written on a bunch of them.

The thing that’s killing me (because I'm such a tightwad) is that I don’t think I can justify buying in bulk for the lighter/heavier bows... guess I’ll have to focus on feeding just the #55s at this rate....

I suppose if I decide to make any up for the light/heavy bows, I’ll have to be willing to splurge a little....

There is no logical reason for 80% of an order of 100 arrows to be out of the spine group.

Don't know who the shafts came from but I would have sent them back.

I buy bulk electronically spined

sort into 10 grain weight groups

fix them up and shoot from light to heavy

then order more and start over

I think JJS was sorting through a bunch of shafts that hadn't been checked for anything yet, so in that case I guess I can see why there would be so much variability.....

Seems like the other guys are doing what I’ll end up doing....

I think I’m just balking at the thought of dropping a couple hundred bucks at one crack....

BTW - for you light-poundage shooters, Lancaster is blowing out “40”-spine BearPaw spruce at $1.25 a shaft.... I was tempted, but I’d have to buy another bow to make any use of them.....

I’ve bought the German spruce several times. I suggest you spend a little more and come out with many more shootable arrows. I’ll not be guilty of buying them again.

GF, if you spend the money to buy a 100 of each of the spines you need from a reputable dealer like Wapiti, Surewood, Rose City, and there are others you will be in fine shape from the stand point of good wooden arrows. You don't have to buy all of them at one time.

I agree 100% with everything fdp has posted so far. It ain’t rocket science. Cavemen got it right. . Talk about anal.

That's the beauty and fun of wood. There is a challenge to it, and you get to experiment with each shaft to make it fly it's best. Depending on spine, and the way it flies, you should start off with a bunch of different point weights. You can adjust the tapers, you can try different feather profiles (fun with a burner) it's all good, and you learn a lot every day. Like Sawtooth said, our ancestors got it done with pond reads, but they also had bigger targets :-) Enjoy the journey. If you are interested Lancaster will sell you as few as one shaft, or a zillion. I like Port Orford Cedar because I like the smell, and the way it is harvested, makes it seem even more old timey traditional. But that's just me. It's all good.

I would never include Rose City in the same sentence with Wapiti and Surewood when talking about Premium and spined shafting. Yes with Wapiti and surewood you will get Premiums shafts that are all what they say and the spine really accurate but not so with Rose City.

First off with Rose City the shafts will not be all Premiums- there will be many that fall outside most criteria for Premiums that being straight full length running grain. Rose City's Premium grade is the shaft will have straight grain for at least 18" somewhere on the shaft. That is a far cry from what "Premium" was or is supposed to be.

Next is the spine. Rose City electronically spines the shafts where the machine does not zero our for straightness nor is the shaft orientated in the testor thus when hand spining those so called spined shafts they will be just as many and maybe more outside of the 6# group than inside because of the above mentioned items. Most so called spine groups, 50-55 or 55- 60(which are really 6# spine groups -not 5 like advertised) really contain spines anywhere from 10 to as much as 20# variation. So yes you can get shafts spined for different 5#(50- 54 or 55-59#) groups when buying in the 100 or 1000 bulk lots. Even the same when just buying a dozen shafts of Rose City cedar, if they have only been electronically spined.

Now all that said, one can easily shoot 15# spine group of shafts in a particular bow and 50 grains of weight difference before you will even notice the difference at normal distances.

People, I apologize. My post should have said, “ talk about simple”. Not anal. I don’t know where that came from. Sorry.

Agree with Kelly.

But, if you truly need shafts of quite different spines, I think most vendors would be willing to give you a bulk price for a mixed lot of dozens.

^^^^!

Now, THAT is the kind of thinking that I needed!

Kelly’s points on Rose city are a bit discouraging in some respects, but Innoway, that’s sort of what I started out looking for… LOL

And @Sawtooth - i’m really relieved to hear you say that you meant to write “simple“ instead, but I have been accused more than once of having a few “retentive“ tendencies, so no harm done!

ROFL at myself, as usual!

Lancaster is blowing out “40”-spine BearPaw spruce at $1.25 a shaft.... "I was tempted, but I’d have to buy another bow to make any use of them....."

This was almost a quote from the first posting I ever placed here. I bought 750 arrows for almost nothing ranging from spines for 25# to 70#. I owned two recurves. Now I own sixteen. I think that makes perfect sense?!

One other wrench to throw in this process-spining. Depending upon where you live and the time of the year raw shafts take on/expel moisture. One shaft spined at a certain poundage when it was moist outside/inside will gain spine if the next time it was spined in a very dry climate and vice versa. We are not talking a lot but 1-2/3# I've seen and all spine testors are not the same- don't give the same readings.

If you want really closely matched shafts and keep them that way let them acclimate to your environment at least 2 weeks and a month is better. always store them flat and in cardboard boxes. When ready the next step is to straighten them before putting on spine tester. Then after spining/weighing/marking store back in the cardboard box but this time bundle them in groups with at least 3 tightly wrapped rubber bands appropriately placed. Before placing these bundles back in the box make sure all the shafts in a particular bundle are aligned straight/not twisted. They are now good for storage for a long time.

But if you do like I did this past summer-moved 600 miles south- I'm going to check my shafts to see if there are any changes since I last marked them per my climate here. Again like I said above most people are not good enough to see a 15# difference in the arrows they shoot out of a particular bow.

Take a look at my old website, www.arrowskp.com for lots more information and spine charts for wood and aluminum.

It is this fletchers opinion that most archers these days should be shooting stiffer shafts than they are!

Yeah, I was back on their site yesterday, and it looks like somebody else took notice and was less put off by some of the comments I’ve seen on quality than other folks have been, because they are ALL GONE now!!

I purchased tens of thousands of shafts from Rose City back when the original owners had it. They were always excellent shafts called Custom Select. Premium was the word used by Acme to describe their best shaft.

Then when Jerry Dishon bought them he changed the perimeters of what constitutes a "Premium" shaft to that stated above.

You want shafts to do weird things in storage? Move from CA coast to AZ. Mine have lost weight stored in the house in one of those plastic under the bed boxes wrapped by the dozens in shrink wrap.

Is there any downside to them losing weight? As long as they stay straight and do not become brittle, I can’t see any reason why that would bother me… All things considered, I would rather be able to take weight out of the shaft and leave it in the head.

It’s not so much that I am a big FOC advocate (although I do understand the arguments in favor), but more steel up front is going to give you either strength or cutting diameter, or both… And I don’t have a problem with either.

I’m kind of hoping that I will be able to come up with a wood shaft that comes in at around 300 grains at about 28 inches and which will have enough spine for me to launch an Ace Super X out of my #62 at about 9 GPP....

GF, no problem with losing weight/moisture with raw shafts.

I am of the same belief about foc, the more the better. 190 and 250 grains up front is what I prefer with wood.

What spine are you using with that 62# bow? 300 grains is a pretty light shaft for the spine you need. 400 is more like it and should be easily obtainable and heavier if you desire..

I don’t actually know yet! The Bowyer suggested probably 75-80 spine because it is cut I think 3/16 past center. So I think you’re right about not being able to get into adequate spine at anywhere close to 11-12 GPI.

But I do have some 190 grain FPs to play with, so I will just try to get a high-spine test kit for it. I also have about three dozen 2117s and 2018‘s to play with, and I expect those will be in the same ballpark as suitable wood shafting, weight-wise.

It’s going to all be part of the learning process for me, I am sure! But I think I have all the toys that I need to work it out now…

75-79’s should do the trick at 29” bop. With 190 grains points then 80-84# spine.

You won’t have any problem getting a 600 grain plus arrow.

Frankly, I’m more concerned about getting it DOWN to around 500-540.... LOL

But I only draw about 27 inches; 27.5 inches AMO fully expanded with a recurve #10 lighter. This bow was designed to be #54 at 25”, so it stacks right up at my full draw. Yeah, I'm built to about the same scale as Paul Brunner... LOL. I may well be scrawnier, though....

An Elk with a bow is on my Bucket List, and a home-built wood arrow would definitely sweeten the deal..... and I think with an arrow closer to 27.5” or 27 3/4” it should get me in there. Especially if i were to opt for the sturdiness of an Ace 160... might end up saving the Super-X just for anchoring deer that much quicker.... Not as if the Standard is a “narrow” design.

Well now we are talking a different story. 75-79 will be too stiff for that short of an arrow. More like 65-69 or maybe 70-74# spine.

Why do you want such a light arrow?

As you go down in spine the grain weight drops, too especially if you get 23/64" diameter shafting. 11/32" diameter has to be more dense to achieve the same spine.

I much prefer the smaller diameter shafts.

One cool thing about a wooden shaft is that unless it’s just way too short or way too weak, you can work on it a little bit and get it flying right. One of my best flying arrows EVER was a 3/8” dowel made out of ramin. I paid .79 cents for it. It was ugly as an inbred redhead but it flew perfectly after a little work.

I like a fast arrow because it’s a lot easier to tell how well you are grouping at long range when your arrows are closer together.... and at the distance of about a Fetrow, 10 or 12 ft./s start to show up.

And north of 500 grains,.... ???

Once you get beyond 8-8.5 GPP, I’m just not convinced that the trade-offs between mass and velocity add up to enough of a difference to put in your eye. So I am looking for the fastest arrow I can get which will shoot quietly and is properly tuned. No sense choosing a lighter arrow if it is going to scrub off a lot of speed getting settled in flight, and no sense burdening an arrow with ginormous fletchings when some low profile 4-inchers will do....

Also @Kelly -

Personally, I am always torn regarding shaft diameter… In many respects I like the larger diameter, but I prefer to shoot with the smallest knock that I can get to work… As I said somewhere here before, I think that’s an artifact of having a shot the arrowdynamics tapered carbons for many years. With those, mine run from 11/32 down to a quarter inch, and those itty-bitty nocks are very easy to let go of cleanly .

So I like the chunky ones up front, but it seems like glue on points are all pretty much either 11/32 or 5/16, so there’s that… And while it is somewhat hard to imagine, I suppose in principle the fatter they are, the more susceptible they are to windage on a longer shot… Not sure that I’m ever going to be good enough for that to factor into anything, though… And there’s no place around here where I could consider practicing in a crosswind anyway…

So I think my solution is going to be that shaft taper jig that I picked up...

I too like small nocks and a tapered shaft, but that taper needs to be long enough for it to be a factor. At least 12” and longer more like 20” is ideal.

I even use 5/16 nocks on 11/32” parallel shafts.

Yes I liked AD shafts too but their nocks were terrible. Since I was in the archery business since the lat 1960’s I knew about nock inserts for fiberglass shafting. I searched thru my old stock and found a size that fit into the nock end of those AD tapereded carbon shafts so I epoxied them in and then glued on a 9/32” nock. That solved the problem with their crappy nocks.

I was having the exact same issue - about the only way I’ve ever trashed one of those was by driving the nock in too deep on a hard impact. I could give a shaft a second chance by gluing in a replacement, but that was a one-shot deal...

VERY lucky for me, one of the guys here had some nock adapters that he sent my way; now I have over a dozen, ready to go. I only wish I hadn’t installed the inserts with Goat-Tuff, but I guess I can go with some really heavy points and the #62......

Here’s another little trick I came up with for salvaging and/or bulletproofing the AD tapers...

Unfortunately, this particular shaft fell victim to my habit of taking multiple shots at the same target from various angles as I approach them.... earlier shot was a good hit on a quarter-away, and then on the broadside I clipped it clean off....

“ I too like small nocks and a tapered shaft, but that taper needs to be long enough for it to be a factor. At least 12” and longer more like 20” is ideal.”

So I am thinking that I can get almost 13 inches of taper out of this woodchuck jig, is that about right?

I’m going to guess that it really depends on whether the correct direction for the plane to travel is point to nock or vice versa.

Head to tail makes sense, but that probably limits me to 12 inches. I guess that’s not a deal-breaker, or they wouldn’t have caught on with the tool the way that it’s built.

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